Dave, I've been retired from the USAF for 10 years, and things change, but in my time the JAG didn't talk to dependents about any possible administrative or judicial action regarding their active duty spouse, and certainly not in a speculative way. Maybe they do now, but I'd be awfully surprised. Unless something has drastically changed, the JAG is extremely limited in what they can do as far as counseling dependents anyway. What your WW said sounds to me like a bovine scatology rumor dreamed up by the OM.

Also, WS's often claim they're going to sue for libel, etc., etc. It can't be done because nothing you've said in your exposure to others is, in any sense, untrue. Talk to your attorney to get the right catch phrases but, essentially, if it's true, it ain't libel.

The DoD Pay Manual (Base Finance calls it the DODPM) requires you to support your dependents as a condition to you receiving BAQ and VHA, but no commander will contemplate any action based on a recalcitrant wayward wife choosing to live outside the family home...the one you provide for her and your children, oh by the way. Do not pay for her hotel. It's her adultery and her choice to move out. You're not liable for any of that. Most important of all, do not attempt to shield her from the consequences of her adultery...and that includes financial consequences.

Kansas won’t allow your WW to file for divorce in that state unless she is an actual, physical resident of that state for at least 60 days prior to the filing. A simple Google search turned up that information. That your Home of Record is Kansas is not relevant at all, by the way. That bit of data is used for only a couple of things and the only ones I can think of offhand are related to your eventual retirement (or separation) and the state in which you vote.

So, Dave, I can’t see anything in your WW’s latest tirade to be concerned about. Again, she’s working on rumors and propaganda (probably as spouted by the OM, if I had to guess about it) and those won’t get anywhere in a court of law.

She has made the threat to go to your commander. Take a suggestion from an old Air Force Senior NCO and let your Commander, and First Sergeant know what’s going on and that she’s making that threat. We used to say that’s “keeping them in the loop,” information wise, and it’s never a bad thing. No one, least of all the CO and 1st shirt, appreciates being caught off guard, so let them know about this latest, okay?

Like Believer said, stay calm. There’s no meat to your WW’s threats and, even if she manages to get some idiot lawyer who’ll file suit on the basis of the arguments you’ve spoken of here, they’ll get drop kicked right out of court. Give the kids a hug and hit the sack, okay?

The key here is SHE SAID... If what SHE SAID is true, then why is she telling you. Why isn't she DOING? Because it's a bunch of hokey. A libel suit involves you knowingly speaking UNTRUTH with intent to HARM and DAMAGE her "stellar" reputation. She is full of it...

Stay calm, she's blowin' smoke.

She wants to file in Kansas because that state is way more friendlier to her situation than North Carolina, where you have all the cards. I doubt she can.

The frog is still sitting in the pot attempting to deal with the heat. Turn the burners up and please DO inform your command what is going on, with emphasis on what you are doing with the kids to protect them.

Larry

My command is fully aware, including how much I have spent in order to keep her in the "same standard of living" that she quoted. I am an officer, so no need for 1st SGT involvement here and my commander is hesitant to act on her behalf because in her last meeting with him she came across as a liar. I don't say this lightly, I work in a career field and an organization who understands the intricacies of human interaction (body language, etc) and we know the difference between people who are honest and those who aren't.

I am not taking the threat laying down, I'm in action mode and will act as opposed to react. The foundation is already laid to respond to her threats in a grave and critical manner...meaning, I have full moral, legal and ethical reasoning to take her threats seriously and respond as necessary. I won't get into specifics, for fear she could have attempted to track me down on here but I will say that I am not worried about any of her threats and if necessary, will do what I have to do to protect my children and myself from further harm.

Her plan is to goad or intimidate me into overstepping my reach or getting me to react in a negative manner...I realize this and am not worried. The blame will be on me anyway, and she absolutely, positively doesn't love me and won't work on anything (her words) so I figure either way in terms of marriage I won't lose anything by shoring up my position. She wants an amicable divorce as long as I am springing into action, giving her money and custody (which really boils down to money as well)...I will not bite off on any flares, I will do what is right.

You guys truly are the greatest, this may be the most emotionally traumatizing event that I've ever been through but the kids are taken care of and I am doing just fine despite my WS's best attempts. So far so good on crappy phone calls tonight. So far so good on everything...if the marriage can't be saved, at least I can be and my children will be better for it. I am so glad I found this site and so glad that you all found me...I wish I could express my gratitude in words.

Dave:


I showed up here as the loser in a contest between me and a train. In other words, an emotional train wreck. Over time, my wife and I have built a new relationship that is better than the old one in many, many ways. I was glad I found this site. What I learned here was some of the most valuable lessons in life I have ever learned.

I share your view.

Larry

Dave,

You are doing great. And you are correct...those kids need to be protected at all costs.

The advice above is sound. As a former Army inspector general, I can tell you that 99% of what your wife has been saying is bunk...idle threats. Dont fire back. Just let her spew...and look at her like she has two heads!

Once she reaches the conclusion that trying to be nice wont work...then she realizes threatening wont work...she will then be faced with the result of having to actually do something. When that day comes, she may choose to file for divorce or choose to come home. But, as you can see with my case, even if she chooses to file doesnt mean the marriage is over.

Gonna have to let this situation play out, Dave. So, keep your position secure...look for targets of opportunity...and let her waste her strength running around like a chicken with its head cut off.

You have your OPORD (the MB principles here). You control the high ground. So, hunker down and hang on. I still say that when the smoke clears, you may be surprised at what you find.

A "flipping" Men, Amen, Amen....This is the attitude. If WW gets her head out of her azz then you can talk relationship. Until then protect you and yours from alien and POS OM.

You sound like you have yourself well centered and focused on the problem. Getting to an attorney was necessary in light of her threats, as unpleasant as the experience may have been. I hope you found a mean, bulldog of an attorney...a really nasty one. The nice ones aren't worth a darn if the worst-case scenario plays out, pardner. Always understand this lawyer works for you, not the other way around. If the bulldog needs to be held on a short leash sometimes, it's doable.

BTW, regarding the crappy phone calls…you can hang up, you know? Please read Pepperband’s “Stick And Carrot of Plan A” thread. You’re not required to be a doormat, or anything resembling such, even in Plan A. When she gets to the point of being repetitious (and abusive) on the phone, let her courteously know you’ve both discussed that subject before, ad nauseam, and you have to go now. If you’re not on call, you can even turn the phone off. The silence and peace is wonderful.

Hang in there, pardner.

Telling the kids would be a big mistake. Children don't need to know everything about your relationship. That's between the adults. My dad cheated on my mom when I was young, and my mom would yell at him for it right in front of us. I would have been better off not knowing. There was no reason at all why I needed to know that.

Telling the children is NOT a mistake...Children can handle the TRUTH, what they can't handle is being lied to...That will do nothing but create moral confusion...Children are much smarter than we give them credit for...

Mrs. W

P.S. Aphrodite, what exactly is your story...Based on your two posts here I'm getting the distinct impression that you are an active WS, am I correct?

In fact, here is a thread repeating Dr. Harley's specific advice on exposing to children:

[color:"blue"] [b]Dr. Harley's Advice On Exposing[/b] [/color]

Now, should one berate the wayward spouse in front of the children? No, certainly not. I can't think of anything that can ever be gained by speaking in anger before a child.

Hmmm, yeah I am not too sure on the kids thing. My kids are being lied to right now, and it probably isn't the right tactic because I am sure in their mind that the marriage is still going to last. They know that mommy is off doing her own thing basically, but not any details except what they've probably overheard. Its a delicate situation, as my daughter is very emotional and my son will probably be hurt but not show it. We've both done wrong in this relationhip, and I feel that acknowledging that we've both made mistakes which has resulted in our current situation will be the best. I could be wrong in this, but I would genuinely feel that I'd be using the kids as a weapon and it just doesn't sit well with me at this time.

All that being said, we had a civil conversation today...threats given and retracted on her part, stayed the course on mind. While her mind has been pursuing pipe dreams in Kansas mine has stayed perpetually grounded in North Carolina. Today I acted instead of reacted and responded to her continued threats in the most appropriate way. I won't go into details, but we'll see what happens in the fairly near term.

She told me that she approached a marriage counselor today, perhaps the closest thing to a positive step that I've seen or heard so far. But despite that she isn't interested in working on the marriage...seems duplicitous to me, perhaps a show of regard for my feelings while persuing the alternative agenda, I do not know. I redirected her to Dr. Harley's basic principles and Dr. Phil's Relationship Rescue. I asked if the counselor that she was interested in had any knowledge of marriage building, she didn't know the answer.

My main concern, since MC is my idea, is that she will use it to find any justification, wiggle room, etc. Based on a number of statements here and elsewhere I presume that sometimes these things do more harm then good, but I can't simply not go if she's willing to even pretend to try...but I will use the same lessons I've learned here during any of those sessions.

Dr. Harley would disagree. Children should be told about affairs. It is not good, or healthy to lie to children. It just causes moral confusion. Children can deal with the truth, not lies.

Dave, your children should be told the truth if they are old enough to understand the concept of marriage and fidelity. They need your moral guidance now more than ever. Children sense what is going on and instinctively KNOW that adultery is wrong. If you don't validate those feelings and give them moral guidance, they will only learn to doubt those instincts and grow up morally confused.

Tell the kids? Maybe. Does this need to be a new thread?

First of all, Harley's words were not carved in granite. The email quoted in Longhorn's reference was a post by 2334pem that was specifically about long term affairs being treated differently where he/she asked Harley (somehow) and Harley replied.

Here is exactly what Harley said (in part):


This is by no means a diatribe on all of the ramifications of exposing to children. Children are included in a list. I submit that this needs more addressing than 'Harley says," and that is THAT! I mean no disrespect by saying this. Children are a special case by any definition and we have to stop, look and think before we do something to the kids as harmful as the affair itself might turn out to be.


Here I think Dave has his thinking cap on. Using the kids as a weapon is a cheap, very cheap tactic best reserved for the temporarily insane like affairees. And they do it, all the time. When you are attempting to sit on the high ground, you gotta look around and make sure there are no pointy things sticking out that might getcha.

Before exposure to kids, I can think of a ton of stuff to consider; Is mom/dad still in the house, what level of insanity do they exhibit, how old are the kids, how mature are the kids, what is the affairee telling the kids, what is the level of tension????

Even more important, exactly what do you say? Well that depends as well. Oh yea, we always have the catchall "Age appropriate" thing. I personally wouldn't be able to always style age appropriate if you put a gun to my head.

So there you have another consideration, how good are you at explaining to kids?

In my opinion, this is a hot topic, worthy of just about anyone weighing in with thoughtful opinions. One size fits all isn't the way to go here, in my opinion. Maybe exposure is the right thing to do with kids, maybe not.

So I think I am going to make this a new thread.

Larry

Larry, I don't think telling the kids the truth about the facts concerning their lives is "using the kids as a weapon," but rather informing and guiding them through some very volatile, turbulent times in their family. Children need moral guidance more than ever in these situations.

When I speak of "age appropriate" [and I have heard Dr. Harley use this very term] I am thinking of speaking to them at their age level, which I think most adults can figure out. They know their child's maturity level better than anyone and would know what to say to their own child to help them understand adultery.

What we say to a 12 yr old will obviously be different than what we say to a 7 yr old who barely understands the concept of marriage. So I think the term "age appropriate" is pretty self explanatory. I don't think most folks have a problem understanding that concept, I know I sure don't.

Unless she ends her affair marriage counseling is a waste of time and money. Waywards do it ONLY as divorce counseling. So they can walk away...as they fully intend to do...saying "I tried". Occasionally, there is opportunity to Plan A within such framework. IF you can get a lunch date or dinner date out of it and productive conversation on the drive to and fro THEN maybe it can have some limited value. However, IF she insists on meeting at the counselors, driving separate, spending zero time before or after discussing any of the concepts or steps to be taken then you easily have your answer that it's a complete waste of time and only FEEDS her addiction.

Mr. Wondering

Thats what I figured too, Mr. Wondering...not going to let her use a potential good thing as a negative. As I've already inferred, she's made a number of "I'm gonna" type statements but its all talk.

The madness continued today...first, she asked to use my car to go to Greensboro for orientation on her new job tommorrow. Uh, no. Then she asked for a $1500 loan to hire a lawyer. Uh, no. Then she texted me saying that she was going to our old watering hole to celebrate. Uh, so. Bearing in mind that its 10:00 pm and she needs to drive 100 miles before 9:30 am tommorrow. Again, ludicrous but whatever. Another colorful anecdote...I had moved all of her clothes into her van before she picked it up last week. She convinced me to leave the house unlocked one day so she could watch the kids here, and moved all of her crap back in! Yesterday and today of course, she needed clothes so came to get some...I told her she should call before coming over in the future and she responded "My name is still on the lease". Apparently, the insanity has not abated. Either way, I thought it was amusing.

As Larry suggested, I am kicking up the heat a bit more over the next few days and weeks, will see if the added doses of reality knock any sense at all into her. I thought she was stubborn before all of this, but I never suspected she could act this stupid.

Next time maybe rent a POD storage unit and lock up her stuff in it outside the house (maybe even just put it locked up in a self storage unit down the road). Then she can't just move it back in.

Read about your emergency order. Good job taking the initiative.

My email is in my address line below. I got something to tell you in private. Please email me at your convenience.

Mr. Wondering

2 May update!

Things have been interesting to say the least. As many of you know I filed and won an emergency custody order (ex parte) last week. She was served yesterday and we had court today. She had no attorney, but asked for a continuance and it was granted for 23 May. The kids can't go out of state on her request, no worries to me...but this summer both sets of grandparents want them (all pre-established), so who knows. Its after the hearing. All of my affadavits are in order, ducks are in a row so to speak.

She is still into denial of the affair, despite a military no-contact order hanging over the head of the OM. Of course, they still maintain a degree of contact through their mutual friends, of which I have proof. She has threatened (strange word, but accurate) to move back in on 3 separate occasions, once when I told her I was about to expose her affair, next when I won temp custody and now she says she'll return if I get primary custody of the kids. Fun fun fun, but still in a fog and still in babble land.

Fact is, she was pretty crappy to them while I was gone...bars, late nights, parties, unclean home, etc...her excuse is that just cuz she's a mom doesn't mean she gets no life. She is starting to take the hint though, she took the kids after school to go do something, so we'll see how long this charade keeps up. She brings up all the bad stuff that I've done in the past, which isn't really atrocious but not great. I figure, better to be a good parent now and in the future than focusing on my past failures. So far, the courts agree.

As well, still making threats about domestic violence and going to JAG, my commander and IG. My commander talked to the same JAG attorney, basically what I got was that the JAG said she was full of it, that most of what she told me and the boss was BS. Go figure, it was as suspected. She's still working the Kansas angle, but I switched residency today so between that and the Soldier/Sailor act I should be covered. We shall see. Interestingly, she also went through the phone records and found out the name of a woman whom is a friends with some of my co-workers. We have never dated or anything, just talked on the phone a few times, but somehow my WS picked her out of a line-up so now I am down one new contact with the outside world. No big deal, but I am not trying to bring drama into anyone elses house.

None of this of course makes me happy, its emotionally draining and time consuming, but frankly its what must be done. I told her today if I can't save the family then at least I will succeed in saving 3 of 4, I hate to settle for 75% but thats what I will do if necessary. I know why so many people get divorced...it seems really easy to do comparatively speaking. I am not taking her back regardless of what she says if she doesn't fix her issues...no contact with the new friends, postnuptial agreement and total honesty. I won't settle for less than that I assure you. Now she is even talking about trying to take half of my severance (mil is giving me a ton of money to get out as a volunteer). She knows what that money is for, so its angers me a bit but I can survive the blow. Money is just money...besides, I still have a few tricks up my sleeve.

So, all in all, the war is being won. I am not sitting in the shower crying or drinking myself to sleep, I have been eating and sleeping reasonably well. I am pretty stressed out, but I suspect most people who are around me don't notice any overt signs of that.

Good job Dave...Serve more and more reality sandwich to the waywards. Did you file AOA against OM