Mimi Thank you for standing up for me but I have to say it is pretty much the same reaction I get here so I feel right at home. They actually sound a lot like my DH. So I consider it good practice.

Windstopped and frognomore you both have really good replies as well and I do think I can try and become more involved with the day to day things he does like I want him to do. FNM the only problem with your suggestion is I have tried this with him and when I get back I get the cold shoulder which I know is a manipulation tactic but it works because i don't like when he is distant with me. So do you have any suggestions to remedy this?

Mimi:

DJ's?

I have been following DIG's thread since she signed on. Some of her earier posts is where my answers and assumptions came from.

And then she added some information about what her evening's are like.

Mr. DIG: TURN OFF THE COMPUTER. Pull your head out and get into your family's life.

As for this quote:

So in the evening, you want a break, "Here, deal with these kids"

And he is like, "I just got home from work, where is my break?" But he can't say that. You can say the first line, but he can never say the second. "What, you don't like the kids? What kind of father are you?!"

And your reply:

WHERE DOES THIS SCENARIO COME FROM???? Is this your assumption about what would happen???? Why are you ASSUMING that her H thinks THIS WAY???

That's exactly what's happening isn't it? He escapes to the computer and goes away. Why? I don't know. I can make assumptions, but I would rather let DIG speak. But this pattern evolved over ten years. I am just trying to expose it for DIG. So that she can address the behaviors that resulted in this pattern and come up with a new solution.

And about the plastic surgery.

Your Jaw dropped? But what has DIG been talking about since she got here? Herself. And the plastic surgery line just stuck me as another in that line of thinking. DIG is starting to get IT. And that's why I keep following her various threads. Because she is getting IT.

I see your points, LG.

What have you go to say about this, DIG?

Ok I have to say that when I first came here I thought I was being a good W. I was doing all the things I thought would make my H happy instead listening to what he was saying and doing those things. I have since come to realize my role in our poblems and most of the things I have accused him of are things I to was guilty of doing. You know the old expression that even ever you point a finger at someone three are pointing back at you. I have to say that applies to me. I have since started listening to my H and doing my best to try and meet his needs.

I am to the point where I don't really care what he does I just want him to be a part of our family. I have to say last night when he came home he was so tired yet he still played with the babies and spent time with me but the older girls didn't get to see him long because by the time he got home it was almost time for them to go to bed. So I let the little ones play with him for a little while then I took of his shoes an socks and rubbed his feet and the I got the little ones ready for bed. Then I came back downstairs and we watched t.v. together after I finished cleaning up. We were watching Everybody Loves Raymond and on the episode Deborah wanted to run for the president of their kids school and Ray voted against her and she lost. He voted against her because he didn't want to have to be involved more with the kids. I told him I think that show reminded me of him because just recently I wanted to get a job to get out of the house more and he pretty much acted just like Ray.

I never just to just pawn the kids off on him as soon as he gets home because I know he has to get settled in but am I being reasonable by expecting him to help me more? Or to be more involved with our family. When he is more involved he is not doing anything he enjoys with them but watching them if that makes any sense and because it's not something he enjoys doing with them it makes him not want to doit more often then what he does. He doesn't know what he likes to do with them or the things they really like to do because he doesn't participate. If he found something they all have fun doing together without him feeling like he has to watch over them instead enjoying spending time with them he will be more willing to do it. I hope this helps. It's like even if we do something together as a family say like going to the waterpark he will watch us play and have fun but won't join in. I don't know what else to do. It's like I'll say C why don't you call C and you guys go out and have fun and he'll say why are you trying to put me out and I am like WTF?

If you all have any suggestions on my sitch I am all ears.

DIG,

FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE ALERT. MY FWW HAD PLASTIC SURGERY. I speak from first hand knoledge. There is almost always something better to spend your money on when you have four kids.


MIMI, I know she doesn't NEED IT because Almost NOBODY DOES..

My comment stems from the fact that every thing my FWW wanted corrected after having two kids made me love her more.

DIBS as far as going out once a week then getting the cold shoulder. OH WELL. I know that sounds harsh.

Heck I work all week full time, my FWW works part time. Once to twice a week depending on what meetings she goes to, I watch the kids. I cook dinner, I help clean.

Last night I made Artichokes, and Chicken. The chicken was sauteed with onions, garlic, olive oil, chicken broth that was reduced. Topped with prociutto and provelone. UMMM.

Today I leave work early to go to IC for my OS because of the mess the A caused. HE is coming around. My FWW might then go to a meeting tongiht.

I also coach my YS baseball team in there as well. And try to spend 15 hours a week with my FWW.

Seems busy but I don't resent it because I love my FWW and my kids.

So if he has a problem with you getting some down time to bad that seems selfish to me.

You can POJA it if you would like or you can just get used to the cold shoulder for a while. If it stops working he will stop doing it.

Man Frog Prince I would love to have you tal to my DH. That would be great. I would really love it if he would just wash the dishes after I cooked. Or did something with the older girls together. You doing all those things with you wife I am sure your R is much better because of it. I know I would be.

My H wanted me to cook but wouldn't watch the kids while did it then I would have all of them in the kichen with me the baby holding on to my leg crying for me to pick her up and my son asking me to read a book and the older girls asking me fifty million questions and he is on his computer and he wondered why I stopped cooking so often. I will take your advice and let you know how it goes. Wish me luck.

Sounds like a perfect opportunity for negotiation.


LG has the $10,000 question though.


The answer may be in the things you guys USED to argue about. Disagreement in how to disipline/play with/love the children? Or maybe you used to excuse the "down time" as having worked hard, and it snowballed? Now it's a habit?

My wife and I went through a lot of similar stuff. I escaped in large part because I didn't feel I was "allowed" to parent. We agrued constantly over the ways we handled things with the kids. I feel like I usually gave in. Resentment built, until I fianlly just thought "to heck with it. You want it your way, you do it." That made things worse.

While I wasn't helping or being a part of what was going on, she felt I wasn't qualified to make decisions. This helped encourage more argument, which encouraged more withdrawal from me.

Recently, we've begun to recognize some of the things we did wrong. I wish I had been more engaged. She wishes she would have stepped back and let me handle some things my way. I feel like it's made a difference in the relationship I have with our children. There is no longer a middleman and she sees I do care.

I would encourage you to negotiate your "down time" too. Just bouncing out the door when that is not the norm will generate more tension, rather than solve anything. Kinda demanding actually. "I'm leaving to hang out for a while. You watch the kids. Bye." I doubt anyone would be thrilled about that, unless it was already planned.

Dig,

I can see where Wind and LG are coming from.

I have another side and I am a man so. There are/were times I want down time. Hoever no matter what was going on I never gave myself permission not to be around my sons.

IMVHO this is somehting he owns. If he felt he couldn't parent or he doesn't do it right doesn't mean he can't be with them.

Heck sit down open up a board game and start playing. No parenting involved.

My FWW and I don't agree on parenting a lot but I still play with my kids and give her time away.


On short notice today I checked if I could go out after work tomorrow. No problem because it isn't a problem when she needs to.

As far as your down time I say negotiate too but if he is going to say yes then give you the cold shoulder that is when I say he will get over it.

Frog and WindS I have talk to my DH and he said the reason that he isn't more involved with the older girls is because they make him uncomfortable. The rub up on him and it freaks him out. I know what he means they have hugged my and tried to touch my breast and it made me not want to hug them as much or only in ways that I knew they would not be able to make me uncomfortable. They are going through a sexually curious stage and it makes him uneasy. Also i think it to may have something to do with the fact that when they were smaller that I would do everything for them and when he tried to help wouldn't let him so he got used to not being involved with them. Last night was different he played with all the kids and they all had fun. I don't try and tell him how to parent and for the most part we agree on what to do he just doesn't like to punish them because he doesn't like to look like the bad guy so he wants me to do it.

We had a really good night and he finally took me up on the balcony so I have no complaints.

DIG:

Windstopped said it better than me. Sorry about the 2x4.

He described the slow slide into detachment that I experienced as well. "I could never parent good enough for Mrs LG"

That full dynamic may not be in play here for you, but it's outlines are occurring.

Frog: I respect your ability to be a caring father, but maybe Wind and I missed that page in the Daddy handbook. I'm much better now. Different strokes. I always wanted to be a better Dad, but felt inadequate. But with better communications with Mrs LG, we have been able to bridge many of the differences. There is a huge difference between what Dad's give children and what Mom's give children. And these differences, if not acknowledged, lead to the detachment that Windstopped described.

Frog: Your relationship with your children is closer, I believe to the relationship that DIG wants between her H and her children. He may be capable of this. He might not. He can certainly learn, or create a new type or relationship that works for him/her/the children. But it does take understanding on DIG's part what Mr. Dig can give. She needs to encourage the good things.

A proper discussion about his computer use is in order. I don't know what he's doing, but there is a time and a place for that, but before, during and after dinner ain't it. If supper's on the table, and he doesn't come in and join the table, dinner would get very cold.

Guess what DIG? LG coming HOME for dinner? THat's one of the things that Mrs LG wanted most. The ability to sit down together and enjoy a meal. LG stayed at work, waaayyy to much. A simple request to Mr. DIG to turn off the computer and join the family at the dinner table may be a nice place to start.

DIG> I'm here for ya, really I am. Tho I really tossed that last 2x4. I understand alot about where your H is.

DIG:

We posted at the same time....

So, how was the balcony? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

LG

LG I have to say that I gave= him a massage with a very happy ending. It was the first and I hope not the last time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I'm not understanding, though, your H saying that he is uncomfortable with the girls because of sexual issues. Are they his natural children?

I'm not buying SEXUAL CURIOSITY at ages 8 and 6.

So are you saying at their young age it is not appropriate for a father and mother to be PHYSICALLY AFFECTIONATE with their children without SEXUAL OVERTONES?

I would agree that he should definitely not bathe them or with them but PHYSICAL AFFECTION seems perfectly fine and there is a PROBLEM if HE is AROUSED by them. They certainly are not being AROUSED by HIM.

No that's not what I am saying they like to try and touch his private parts when they hug him and it makes him less open to be affectionate with them because of it. They see me and him being affectionate with one another and they try and do what we do. Not that we do anything innappropriate in the front of them but they try and interact with him the way I do and it makes him feel uneasy. Because he doesn't like conflict by telling them they make him uncomfotable doing x,y,z he would rather just not interact with them as often. Does that make sense?

For WHAT REASON would they TRY to TOUCH his PRIVATE PARTS?

I could understand them ACCIDENTALLY touching his PRIVATE PARTS. But TRY to TOUCH?



Do they OBSERVE you TOUCHING his PRIVATE PARTS?



It would be HIGHLY APPROPRIATE for them TO SHOW AFFECTION with him in the same way as you HUG HIM and KISS HIM on the CHEEK. I HUGGED AND KISSED MY FATHER UNTIL I WAS 40..had to stop 'cause he died then...



This is such a PERFECT PARENTING OPPORTUNITY FOR HIM. He can tell them how it's not OK to let anyone touch their PRIVATE PARTS. I really appreciate what I learned about being a WOMAN from my FATHER. That's why I have sooo regretted him not being alive now..to help me deal with the INFIDELITY. He taught me what was INAPPROPRIATE and APPROPRIATE in relationships with guys. When I was teenager, it was HIM who told me when I was being TOO PROVOCATIVE. I appreciate him so NOW and I never ever felt UNCOMFORTABLE around him SEXUALLY. He always made sure to COVER UP and made sure that I DID but he ALSO WAS VERY AFFECTIONATE and LOVING towards up til the very end....

He could be "MEAN" too..but that's another whole story....

Your H has difficulty being OPEN AND HONEST in HIS COMMUNICATIONS, doesn't he?

DIG:

This is very interesting. And I am glad that Mimi is here to talk about the relationship between Father and daughter.

But something is very wrong.

And I think that it is your H.

Your 6 & 8 year old daughter's should not be doing anything inappropriate. Unless, something has been done inappropriatly with them. And heaven forbid that is the case.

However, your H is displaying a inability to interact emotionally with anybody. You, your children or others. The computer can give him the distance that he needs to avoid personal contact.

Afraid of the Hugs of an 8 and 6 year old? Possible touching issues? At that age, they are at a awkward height, however, he needs to bend over or stoop down to the kids level. Get down to shoulder height with the children.

He may have had real cold or distant parents. No excuse, but may explain some of the behaviors. He may have never learned how to do it.

We can spend some more time on this...

However, I will note...

You said that he did spend a real nice evening with the children, really participated.... And got the balcony....

This is good positive reinforcement of good behaviors....

Keep working that angle...

OK?

LG

Yep. LG and I are thinking along the same lines....

Does he only equate INTIMACY with SEXUALITY?

Seems like some SERIOUS ISSUES with your H...

I think so but I am unsure. I know he didn't spend much time with his parents growing up because they had demanding jobs. I know he has a problem with being open and honest. It's one of the reasons we are having problems. It's also one of the reasons he doesn't want to do anything without the kids or have me do anything other than with the kids because he has abandonment issues. It's like he wants me to pick up were he is lacking with them so he doesn't have to feel guilty and I told him even though I spend lots of time with them they still need him. I don't know what else to do. I know this is why he has problems telling me thank you, sorry, ILY and you look nice.

I love his parents I think they are as good as gold. I actually like them better than my parents. They are very good with our kids and she is like a mother to me. I could not have asked for a better family.

I do know his dad was very strict and overbearing growing up and because they worked so much and he was good boy they pretty much forgot him.

DIG,

I would say this to to family counceling.

I am in it now with my OS. Or it is his IC and then we join.

I can say this though. Through it all he can still be a dad.

He might have what he considers reasons but really what reason can you have.

So just to let everyone know I do not have the perfet relationship or home.

My FWW contradicts me and she is the Parent on record. LOL. She has been critical of me etc. However I am still their dad.

My FWW cannot contradict me etc when we are playing PS2 or Monopoly, or trouble or catch or swimming etc.

As a matter of fact the IC said I was like a Vice President. Nice title but no real decesion making power .LOL.

What is happening with the girls could be they want attention etc. because they aren't getting it.

With the distance between you and your H it might be causing more.

We were open with my OS IC and told him we had problems. He said that is part of his problem.