Mortarman, I have spent much time reading through some of your early posts as suggested by Just Learning. My wife and I are now separated for the second time, during her third affair. The second one resulted in a precious baby girl. I nearly fell out of my chair when I read some of your posts. The similarity between our situations is remarkable, from the children aspects, financial, I even spent the night in jail for "domestic violence", like you did. Most importantly, I am a believer and don't even at this point feel "released" from my marriage. I could identify so well with many of your feelings and emotions. I confess that I didn't have time to follow all the way through your five years of posts, but do I discern correctly that you are still together? Is your marriage healed? I posted this time under divorced/divorcing as howmuchmore. I posted back in 2001 as P51 ( I couldn't remember that name when I started this time), if you'd like to check out my story. I also posted in 1998 during the first affair, but apparently that is now gone from the archives. I could really use some advice from another Christian who has walked this road I'm now walking for the third time.

howmuchmore - MM should be able to give you some good advice and input.

While you are waiting for him, what is your wife's relationship with God? Is she a born again believer herself?

If so, to what do you attribute the multiple affairs and/or what does she say is the reason?

God bless.

Hi Forever,
An overview of my situation is here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3217462

My wife is a believer although she is not behaving as one currently. Up until mid October she was a home schooling mom and worship leader at our church. Very active in women's group and close to her Christian female friends. She was a great wife and communicated that things were good between us. Then she met OM. Now she says the last 15 years have been terrible and says she was trying to believe it was good. Right now she has alienated herself from church, friends and family, and says that OM is the only person that cares for her.
I believe that she has deep wounds that originated with her father leaving when she was 11. I believe she has a hole in her heart that only God can fill/heal and she has never really given it to him. I believe that she thinks a man can fill that hole (subconciously) and that when I am repeatedly unable to as her husband she becomes susceptible to other men that seem to fill it. Let me know if you can't follow the link and/or tell me how to post it.

Thanks for your reply.

Here are a couple of links back to 2001 that might fill in a little more:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...true#Post488679
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...true#Post802124

howmuch, I've been reading these boards for a year now, and I have to say yours is one of the saddest stories I've ever heard, and my heart goes out to you, sincerely.

You have been an upright man in this. You have stood by her, even took in and loved her OM's child like your own. And here you are again.

HM, God is proud you, I know he is. But honestly, you have done enough, put up with enough, been though ENOUGH.

My opinion, let her go, HM. I know that hurts. But release her to God.

rlt,
I know that your opinion is valid and logical. I am here because I do not feel released from my marriage. I feel that I have somewhat healthy perspective. I do not want my wife back the way she is. I believe she can be healed and our marriage restored. I do not say this be cause of any natural or worldly knowledge. I know that 1) God hates divorce, 2) I am to love my wife as Christ loved the church, and 3) I believe God's heart is always for reconciliation and restoration. How many times does He forgive us? I am trying to take one day at a time and only act when I feel I am getting clear direction from Him. The catch is that no matter how much you understand a/b plans, and the dynamics of affairs, it still hurts. I am struggling in particular now because my wife is beginning to slowly bring the OM around my kids. This goes against everything she knows to be true and good. And I am ready to fight.

HMM,

Sorry to have to meet under these circumstances. Please know one thing...as long as you keep your eyes on the Lord, you CANNOT fail! HMM+Jesus= a majority!

That being said, I will tell you that I had many here and in my personal life, tell me to give up on my wife the two times she left before. But as you have eluded to...God had a different plan!

I could have given up. I could have saved myself a lot of anguish, pain, etc. God would have allowed me to do that. But, I would have missed out on the best for my life!

Now, am I saying reconciling with my wife is the best for my life. Well, in a way...sure. But what I really meant was God really was trying to show me something. That no matter whether my wife returned or not...He wanted to know if I was going to follow Him. Trust Him. That no matter what He asked me to do, that I would do it.

It took a long time to get to that point, HMM. I am a control freak...plus I do not like pain. When in pain, I strike back...HARD! All of this Plan A and Plan B, etc is against my nature. This is NOT my way!

My way would have a maimed and disfigured OM, my wife on the street with nothing...and if I wasnt in jail, then I'd be with a woman that wouldnt betray me. My way would have been to destroy all that were trying to destroy me and my kids.

Jesus asked me to do something different. He basically told me "Mortarman, you just quit...and I will come alongside and heal you and bless your life. You can do that. But, I have another road for you. A smaller, more treacherous one. One that isnt flat...that will challenge you at times...and even cause you pain. I promise you I will be with you on that road...I will not leave you alone. And at the end of that road...if you walk it with Me, I promise you blessings you cannot possibly imagine. Now, do you trust Me?"

You see...while my wife was running away from the Lord...He used that mess in order to get me to face my own inadequacies...my own lack of faith in Him. He told me that this whole thing was not about her...it was about ME!

When I was deployed to Bosnia and this all started, I knew our marriage was in trouble. I dont know if you read the beginning stuff back in 2002 that I wrote, but I will Cliff Note it here.

One day, I was sitting in my office in Tuzla trying to find a way to get thru to my wife. I could feel her shutting down. I was frantic to get thru to her! So, I am sitting there with my Bible...and for the first time in a very long time, I began to pray. Not a prayer of "Oh Lord, you are so awesome." Not a prayer of "Oh Lord, please help me and my wife."

This prayer was different from all of the other ones that I had said in my life. This one asked "Lord, please show me what is happening. Please show me what your will is."

I closed the prayer and began opening my Bible. At the same time, I was using the search engine on my computer to look up particular passages or concordences. And all of a sudden, the answers to my prayers came before me.

Line by line that I looked up or found in my Bible or on the Internet pointed to three things. Three things He wanted me to know. Three things He wanted me to do. Everything pointed towards this. When I went to see the chaplain later...as he pulled up Scripture to help me...even what he brought up pointed to these three things.

I emailed my pastor back here about our problems. He emailed me back. And guess what? All of his advice and references pointed to these three things.

You see, I had decidedd to be still...and ask the Lord what His will was. And...this is key...I expected an answer!! Ever heard the phrase "pray like it all depends on God, and work like it all depends on you"? That is WRONG! The phrase should be "pray because you KNOW it all depends on Him."

So, the three things He told me over and over were this...

1. Forget about Mrs. Mortarman. What He meant was to stop worrying about her, stop trying to change that which you cannot change.

2. Get back to my first love. Jesus Himself was telling me that my first responsibility was to look Him in the eye...to re-establish THAT relationship first, as it is the most important.

3. Die for Mrs. Mortarman!

The first two I understood. The first two I got, although it took awhile to fully implement them. But the third...what did He mean? What exactly was He talking about?

I began to ask questions. How do I die for someone that neither wants me to and in reality, is actively trying to destroy me? Why do I have to go thru all ofthat pain for someone that that will only take advantage of what I am doing? How am I supposed to do opposite of wha tthe world says I should do...and open myself up to ridicule and scorn...even from the very person I am dying for?

You get the picture here? You see where these questions were leading me?

I knew His story as a small child in Sunday School. I intellectually knew about the virgin birth, what He preached and about His death and resurrection.

What He was doing was wanting me to become closer to Him thru not just intellectually knowing what He had done...but in a small way (compared to what He went thru), He wanted me to know Him by experiencing His pain, His path...and His love.

You see, He wanted me to understand something that most people do not understand and that is that love is a verb. It is what you do. In His case, it is what He did despite the fact no one wanted His love. "While we were yet sinners, He died for us."

About the time I was starting to get this, the Passion of Christ came out. On the first night of that movie, I went to see it. I showed up early and sat in the back. You see, I knew the story. I knew the plot line. I was interested in seeing others' reactions to it...so I sat in the back and watched.

Within 15 minutes of the start of the film, I no longer was watching anyone but the screen. I was thankful I was in the back because as the film went on, the tears began to flow and would not stop. At many points, I was so overwhelmed that I was shaking.

At the end of the film, I practically bolted out the door and went to my car. It was there that I literally cried for an hour. Balled like a baby!

When I got home and over the next few days, I was asked by many who had not seen it yet "so, how was it?" I could not speak. I could barely even talk, and only in a hushed tone. Forget about finding out my wife was in adultery and that pain. The pain I had witnessed on that screen brought home the realization of just what I had done to Him!

Yes, what I had done to Him! You see, He would have done all of that just for me. He did do it for me. When I got home, I sat downstairs on the couch all night thinking about it. For awhile, I would think and ponder. And then more realizations would come over me again and I would begin crying again.

All I could keep saying for three days was "I'm sorry. I'm sorry." He didnt deserve what I did to Him. I did not deserve what He did for me.

I was glad the movie was graphic...I was glad it was like being right there. Why? Because too often, the Gospel is watered down. "Little Jesus, meek and mild." We see crosses with Jesus on them...and He looks like He is just sleeping. We never understand exactly what He did that day, and how much it cost Him! Not until that moment.

I walked away after that week understanding...truly understanding...what it was that He was asking me to do in the third command He gave me. He was asking me to do as He had done.

My wife today still questions me about all of this. Many times over the last few months...especially lately...she asks "why do you love me? Wouldnt you have just been better off moving on than going thru all of this for me?"

Well, because of all of this...I finally understand what this life is about...what marriage is about. My answer to my wife is telling. And I want to cover that right here.

Ask yourself...all of you reading this post...what decides the worth of something? If you want to by a 1966 Mustang, what decides the worth? Now some of you would say "well, if it still is in good condition, if it still has the original interior, blah, blah, blah." And you would be wrong! What decides the worth of that car is what someone is willing to pay for it. It may be a piece of crap, but if someone is willing to pay $75,000 for it...then that is what it is worth.

The other factor in something's worth is not just what someone is willing to pay. What someone is willing to pay is also linked to how rare it is. Rare things are worth more that things you can find anywhere.

So, the answer to my wife was that I began to see what my worth to Jesus was. That even though I did that to Him, even though I might consider myself worthless...even though my wife was acting like I was worthless...He was willing to make a payment for me that was greater than any payment ever made. The God of this Universe was willing to give up EVERYTHING for me!

And that is what He was asking of me with my wife. He was asking me to love her, as He loves me (which is the actual command of husbands in Scripture). He was asking me to value your her, to place worth on her that had almost nothing to do with who she was or what she was doing. And had almsot everything to do with who I am!

I told her she is priceless in my eyes, and to all around us...because there is one man on this planet that is willing to pay EVERYTHING for her. There is one man on this planet willing to "die for her."

Now, does that mean that I would just sit back and let her do whatever? Of course not...and Jesus doesnt do that with us either. If we are out of line, He lets us know it! But he NEVER gives up on us. He never kicks us out and shuts the door. If the door is shut, it is because WE shut it!

Although I had begun to move on with my life in many ways after court last summer, I was still keeping my eyes on Jesus. He began telling me last year, for the first time...that the message had finally changed. That I had finally got it! And the new message was "Mortarman...in you I am well pleased." What I got from that message was that I would soon see the blessings that He had promised.

Sometime last fall, I had begun noticing someone new. I knew my divorce would be final this July...so I began wondering "Lord...will she be the one that will move forward with me?" The Lord's response was "be still and listen."

Three weeks after that interaction...my phone rang. On the other end of the line was Mrs. Mortarman. We had only talked 5 times in 5 months. But this day...she calls and asks "can we talk?"

We have been talking ever since. And we now have a boy that will be born in September. And my wife shows me the same face, the same tears, the same sorrow that I exhibited that week of the Passion.

It is funny how...when faced with that kind of love...how all of us fall to our knees.

Sorry about the long post. And I'm here if you wanna talk. Just know that what you are doing is probably the single biggest thing you will ever do in your life.

howmuchmore,

I'm glad to see that you have reached out to Mortarman and gotten some wise council from JL. He's the only one here on MB who's older than me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> It's a little joke--he has been here just a little longer than me, I think.

Anyway, I would like to clarify one thing, if I might, about some "advise" you might get here on this GQII forum. You can imagine, that to the majority of people, they are going to wonder why you haven't already D'ed her and moved on. I get the sense that you understand how to deal with that kind of response. But from folks who are generally old-timers, wise, BTDT--I've seen a few who say, "...move on...let her go...you've done enough...." Let me clarify that if I could.

In my humble opinion, you and your WW are believers and took a vow before God, using His name. That means you have a covenant in my book. And one think I've been learning is that God is a God of covenants, and He administers them forever. No, He does not want to see us putting ourselves in a position of continually being harmed. No, He does not want us to live mentally unhealthy, unstable lives. But a covenant between believers in God's name is forever. I sincerely believe that.

Therefore, I do hear and understand what you are saying about not being released from your marriage. I also think you have a SOMEWHAT healthy perspective on it. There are two dynamics here. One dynamic JL touched on in your D/D thread--giving her to God. The second is standing for what is right and seeking possible legal action. Let's discuss...

First, giving her to God. I remember distinctly the day that I realized that I was standing directly in God's way with my exH. We were married for 15 years--he was abusive and had diagnosed mental health issues--but like you I did not believe in divorce and was determined to stay married and honor my vows. But in real life, it was not just this "noble" desire to save our marriage. In real life, I was AFRAID of what would happen to me if I was 40yo and divorced, and I was AFRAID that God would not be able to "fix" my exH if I was not there to minister to him. What a crock!!! I couldn't believe it! There I was--I measly human being--and I had the mistaken idea that the only way God could work in my exH's life was through me!!!! I needed to repent for my sin of thinking that if God completely took my exH out of my life, that He wouldn't still LOVE my exH and work in HIS PLAN, in HIS TIMING, using HIS RESOURCES!!!!! How arrogant of me to think that I was the only way God could move in my exH's life! I also had to repent for my sin of not trusting God to bring me through EVERY circumstance, including being a divorced 40yo. I had no idea how I would survive...no idea how my church life would continue (or if it even could)...I was AFRAID and that was because I had my hands on the wheel instead of completely turning over control to God AND moving out of the driver's seat!!! Yep--I was trying to stay in control.

My brother, I want you to consider my story. Consider the convictions I had and see if maybe one or two of them don't ring true in your life as well. Are you afraid of being divorced? Are you afraid that God will not work in your WW's life? Are you taking God's place where you shouldn't be? THAT IS WHAT WE MEAN WHEN WE SAY LET HER GO. It's not so much that you have to "let her have her A" or "let her be sinful" as it is to step out of God's way and let the Supreme Creator of the Universe have His dearly beloved daughter back.

Second, when we advise you to stand for what is right and seeking possible legal action, it is not to suggest that you should initiate the D. Rather, we suggest that you protect yourself, your family, and your marital assets. Here's the thing. Anyone can sin. But while someone is in the midst of doing what they KNOW to be wrong and KNOW to be sin--they do not think clearly. Their thinking is not rational, usually selfish and self-centered, and quite often VERY entitled (such as, "I have the right to finally feel good after all the years I felt miserable and unloved here"). In that state of sinful thinking, the WS will often make decisions that really, deeply affect reconciliation--things like emptying the joint bank account to pay for the Love Shack...selling the family home to pay for the A. THAT is why we advise you to boldly protect yourself. Your WW may have to play out her A. She may or may not come back to you--that is in God's hands. BUT while she is not thinking clearly or thinking of the best interest of the family, it is just WISDOM to seek to legally protect your finances, protect your children, and protect yourself.

I personally suggest that you consider something like a separation agreement. This is NOT a divorce. It is a legal agreement that says, "I live here--she lives there. I get this and this furniture--she get that and that. We no longer have a joint bank account. She has an account and I have an account. She visits the kids these days--the kids live at home on these days." Sometimes separation agreements CAN INCLUDE that during the separation, any person that the spouse is "dating" (EWWWWWWWW) will NOT be brought around the kids. You will want to try to include that in your agreement. Sometimes separation agreements even include verbage that says how long it will last and what each partner will do (counseling, etc.) during the time in order to try to heal the marriage. I don't know if you can get that in there, but you might want to try.

So, I hope this clarifies a few things. If you have any other questions, feel free to jump in! We are here to assist you.

Your faithful friend,



CJ

CJ brings up some good points. Ones that JL and others raised to me in the middle of my mess. Remember the three things the Lord wanted me to do?

Remember #1 was "Forget about Mrs. MM." And number three was "Die for Mrs. MM." Now if I am to forget about her (not worry about her), then how am I supposed to die for her?

Simple! #2! By getting back to your first love (Jesus) and listening to Him, then you will do the right things. Sometimes, those right things are to pull back, or to protect your kids legally or whatever.

He will tell you if you are quiet and listening!

MM -

Wow! Your story continues to amaze and impress me. Your struggles and victories are such an encouragement to both people trying to save their marriages, and fellow believers.

I'm going to save this post and refer to it in those times where I feel like giving up on everything.

HMM -

I can understand the position you're in. Keep your eyes focused on Jesus, as MM and others have said. He'll lead, if you follow. No matter what happens, you will be blessed.

P.S. When I grow up, I think I want to be just like MM (except I'll keep my affiliation with the Navy - sorry <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

Just to offer some of my own exprience.

It was so hard for me to resolve in my mind that protecting my family was not giving up on my marriage. I talked with one of the pastors at my church and he likened it to life insurance.

What I mean by this is:

Does buying life insurance to protect your family in the event that you die mean that you do not trust God to take care of your family if you die?

Of course not. He puts people and tools around us that we should take advantage of - those are the things he will use.

That's what it took for me to grasp the concept.

Maybe that will help you as well.

Mortarman's passion is quite contagious, let me tell you!

HowMuch,

And NOW you know why I told you to seek out MM. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There is another man that still posts occasionally by the name of K. Among the many things I have learned here, I learned from him what the word OPPORTUNITY means.

I will briefly explain. His W had an affair, it was hot and heavy. They had two children and were in the second decade of their marriage. One day it occured to him that she might end up pregnant from this affair. He counseled with Steve Harley long before this site was ever set up. And with thought, pray, good counseling, he came to realize that if she became pregnant it would be an OPPORTUNITY to save his marriage. She did, and he did. That little boy should be about 10 now and it the light of K's life.

My point? Look at what MM is saying. Look at what others are saying and realize that in all of this mess, this pain, this fear, there is an OPPORTUNITY. If you are still you will see it and know it. Then seize the OPPORTUNITY. Who knows what it will be or when, but it will be there.

Please think carefully about all you have heard on this thread.

God Bless,

JL

Eph...that is a good analogy!

JL...as usual, you took my entire long post and put it into one word! Opportunity. HMM has an oportunity here...if he is listening to Him!

HB...thanks. But I also had to say...a Navy Mortarman?? Dear God, say it isnt so!!!

HMM...one quote I heard in the last week that kinda sums up what I was saying:

Man asks God: "Show me, and I will believe." God responds: "Believe, and I will show you."

Mortarman, you are really inspiring. I’ve yet to finish your story, but I pick up that the last few years haven’t been smooth sailing (pardon the Navy reference). I will try to read the rest of it. Is your story summarized somewhere?

Your 3 points that God told have also been communicated to me. I have a really close friend/pastor and another friend (a retired Coasty) that have given me similar advice as yours. The only difference is you have walked through it.

In your second post you said to be quiet and listen. Again I’ve received similar advice, but I’v e been in such emotional turmoil that it is difficult.
CJ, I believe there is definitely some of your fear in me. It’s the part I’ve yet to totally surrender to God.

I had a long sincere discussion with my wife on the phone this morning. I asked her where she stands now. She said that she does not miss our lack of intimacy or the fact that she always cared for me and she always cared for herself too (because I didn’t do it). She said she does miss talking with me as friends. She says she doesn’t want to consider working things out although she admitted she had thought about it, because she just doesn’t want to risk doing this to me and the kids again. I told her that it was hard to say because I don’t want to sound like a sap, pining away and wishing for her to come back, but that I don’t feel that God has released me from our marriage yet. She said if God has not released me then there’s nothing to feel sappy about. I asked her if she felt God had released her and she said, I’ve not talked to him about it, I’ve been talking to him about me. I guess I’ve released myself from the marriage.
She did acknowledge the adultery and said she is trying to distance herself from that.
She said that me talking to all of our old friends about what is going on hurts her. I admitted that that was a weakness of mine, because I find comfort in talking with people about what’s going on, when I really need to be taking it all to God. I assured her that it was not my intention to hurt her with that. She implied that it’s the same with her affair. She didn’t mean to hurt me, but it brought comfort to her. She said, “I know, it’s a different circumstance, though.”
She was going to the zoo with my 10 year olds field trip and she said she needed to go so she could compose herself before she got there.

Now my heart is hopeful. I know it shouldn’t be. How do I continue to forget about her? How can I show her I love her and meet her intimacy needs? Should I not worry about that?

Mortarman, there is so much more in your post that hits me hard. I need to digest it.

I wish! I have been trying to do that...but it is hard to find time.

Amazing how His voice and His message is always the same, huh? Not to say He wont direct you in a different direction. But the message remains the same!

This is what, right now...you must be doing the most to learn! You must be asking Him "please reveal to me what is going on here...what your will is." And as I said...the key is that you MUST expect an answer. He promised He would always give one...but in order to be able to be quiet and hear it, you must expect it!

You know who the author of fear is?


All WSs, in the midst of fog babble, do give you clues. Clues to what needs to be fixed...clues to what they perceived was wrong. Here are hers. Now, you know what you need to work on!!

Okay, this is good because she is still thinking about it. But much of what she just said is fog babble...ignore it.

And He never will. God hates divorce...all of them. even the ones where the BS legally divorces the WS. He hates those too! It is NEVER His intention that a couple divorce. He does ALLOW it in the case of a BS divorcing a WS. But that is NOT His will.

Well, if she is talkign to Him, she aint listening to the responses!! Otherwise, she would hear the Lord say "Go home to your husband. Go and sin no more."

She has no authority to release herself from the marriage. Who gave her the right to do that? God sure didnt because He says He is the only one that can break up a marriage. And He has given only two ways that is done (death...and when a BS divorces a WS). That's it. Tell this to her, HMM. Dont let her gloss over the fact that she is completely ignoring the Lord and having her own will i nthis. And God will not be mocked!

Whatever that means! More fog babble!

If what she was doing was right and was in line with what God's will is, she wouldnt be hurt or angry! She is hurt because everyone is finding out about what she is doing and she knows she is wrong! That is not your fault!

Me, me, me. All WSs do this because it brings THEM comfort. Do whatever it takes to make themselves happy, even if it makes someone else unhappy.

By doing number two. By listening to the Lord. By ignoring what she says and does...because it is all fantasy anyway.

Dont worry about it. The Lord will give you opportunities to do these things. Even if they are little things, like touching her hands when you talk, or putting your hand in the small of her back when walking thru a door. I used to do little things in Plan A like find an excuse to touch her. Like, pretending there is something in her hair and I would pick it out. Or brush something off her back.

Little things like this register!

howmuchmore - Here's something else to consider. Consider shifting your focus to her relationship with God first.



This IS "the point," isn't it? She CAN'T "release herself" from the marriage. God is VERY clear about WHO "can be released from the marriage" and WHY they can be "released."

It is clear that she has a very poor understanding of God and His Word, or at least she is still running from Him because she is allowing her "feelings" to be "her truth" rather than servanthood to God. So, is there an opportunity here for you to discuss what it IS that God says and how it applies to each of us as believers?

This is where I focused my communication with my wife because I understood that without a "right relationship" with God, there could only be, at best, an "unequally yoked" marriage. Beyond that, beyond her relationship with God, is the FACT that her soul "may be on the line" here.

God is very clear that unrepentant adulterers are included in the "group" that will NOT be in heaven. So the "issues" are much bigger (not to minimize them) than just the marriage and whether or not the marriage could be recovered.
The rationalization that "I have lots of time to repent and change" is a dangerous route, too. If she is thinking along those lines, God warns us that we don't know when our souls may be required of us. Ask the people at Virginia Tech if that warning is real or not? Today is the day to respond to God when we hear His voice, not tomorrow. While God is patient, and you and I can be too, it is not a good idea to "presume" upon God or to act as if we had "all the time" to decide to "choose God."

With respect to talking to others about the affair, how about a moratorium on that? Don't undermine your efforts with "gossiping," because that, too, is something that God does not want us doing. We CAN "rationalize" the reasons for gossiping with others, but as with all sins, there are consequences that go with the commission of the sin and it is obvious that one consequence is "not walking the walk" of trust in God and obedience to His commands. That, in turn, would make any talking about "obeying God" to seem "hollow." So trust the Lord in this area also and focus on the simple fact that obedience to God's commands applies to all of us, no matter how "difficult" it might seem to "humbly obey."

This is the simple truth from Jesus; "If you love me, obey my commands."

God bless.

Great points FH.

I did want to add to what I said. While I did outline why she was upset with you because others were finding out...I also agree with FH's point that since this is exposed...continued talk about this to others just to get it out there is gossip.

So, except for close friends and family that you have that are helping you...I too would say that you should probably stop talking about this now with the general public.

Dont worry about it. The Lord will give you opportunities to do these things. Even if they are little things, like touching her hands when you talk, or putting your hand in the small of her back when walking thru a door. I used to do little things in Plan A like find an excuse to touch her. Like, pretending there is something in her hair and I would pick it out. Or brush something off her back.

Little things like this register! [/quote]

How much interaction did you have with your wife while separated? I've not been seeing her at all and only talking about what was necessary regarding the kids. There were a couple of exceptions like this morning where there was some substance to the conversations.

She would be willing to talk and "be friends" I think. I haven't considered that at all because I've been "plan Bing it". Not consciously, just because. Honestly, this time around I didn't really Plan A or B becuase when we arrived here again, initially, I was so overwhelmed that I just figured it was over this time.

Were you in contact enough to meet her needs in any way while separated?

When I talked to her this afternoon about dropping off the kids, in my heart I wanted some more conversation, but she was maintaining her "detached voice". Should I walk us into conversation or wait?

Am I trying to be God? It is hard to "give her to God" and not worry, but I think that is the key.

Wow FH, what conviction. I had not once considered that that was gossip. I am ashamed. I was speaking out of hurt and seeking comfort for myself. I see that as selfish now. It is gossip. Ugly gossip. I am grateful for your words. I owe her an apology.

HMM - Yes, you do owe her an apology. That's part of repentance. She may not forgive you, but don't let that stop you from telling her anyway.

Remember: Love always means having to say you're sorry when you do something that hurts the one you love, or anyone else for that matter.

And there is nothing like humility to "open the door to talking with her about her relationship with God." Remember, too, that conviction comes about many ways, not the least of which is talking with a beliver about their actions that "seem" contrary to what God has commanded.

I'm personally not a very big "fan" of "Plan B" for believers. There IS a "time and place" for it, but I look at it usually as "doing what the Good Shepard would do. When one of His flock has strayed and gone missing, he leaves the flock and goes in search of them himself, and once he finds them, he leads them back to the safety of the flock. I can't think of a more valuable sheep than a husband or a wife who has strayed and backslid in their walk with God, can you? Since we are Christ's "stand-in" in our marriages, we need to take the leadership role in the centrality of Christ in the marriage. Sometimes that even includes, as MM has alluded to, "dieing (in self) for our spouse."

It is NOT always easy, but it IS the right way, imho, to be obedient to God even when we really don't feel like it.

God bless.