I'm interested in the theory of no plan B for believers. On the other hand, I feel as though I shouldn't give her the time of day as long as she is involved with another man.

I must confess I am hurting deeply tonight. I've had the kids all day (don't mind a bit). She said last night that she might call and take them to breakfast this morning; she didn't. Then she said that any of them that wanted to come to her apartment today, could, but they would have to help clean. She was going to record music tonight and said that she would pick up anyone that wanted to stay with her tonight around 8:00. Well, only the 10 year old wanted to go to the apartment tonight and she picked him up at 10:45.

The most upsetting part was that she called when she was leaving and asked if he was still up, and supplied her reasons for being late. Then she said, " Well, I've got to stop and get some gas, and then I'll be on. I love you... I mean I love him..... I mean I love you too... but in a different way.... (awkward silence)" I said," Just ring when you're about here and I'll send him out.

I struggled for 15 minutes with deep anguish and the clarity of her voice and the words,"I love you." Don't get me wrong, I think it was a faux pas, and I certainly don't think in anyway it was a slip revealing the true feelings of her heart under the "fog". It just hurt to hear it from a woman who six months ago sent me emails like these actual excerpts:

"You are such a wonderful man!
Please remember that God is our provider and you are His vessel (and a hot one at that!!!). Your first and most important relationship (business or personal) is with Him. I know you are very aware of this, I just wanted to remind you to keep the appropriate perspective! You don't ever need to stress over providing for us. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make your paths straight.
I will be glad when He provides us with a little intimate time together ; ) !!!"

and

"...happy to have such a wonderful, talented, handsome, caring husband..."

and

"Loving you is easy cause you're lovable."

2-3 weeks later everything changed and we began this journey that we're still on. Anyway...

She was going to call before she got here so I could send him out and I decided that I would not ever mention the I love you.
When she called and I answered, she said, "I am so sorry, I am so, so sorry."

"For what?"

"I was thinking of (son) an how I didn't wan't him to gauge my love because I was late, and how much I love him and I just said that, and I'm sorry."

"Why are you sorry?"

"Because you must have been thinking, where did that come from?"

"You shouldn't have to apologize for saying that to me." (implication, I AM YOUR HUSBAND!!!)

Her voice went quiet and she said,"I'm turning in the driveway."

As always later I thought of what I should have said..."You said that all the time six months ago and didn't apologize for it."

Why did God allow this tonight?

I know that the OM is a symptom of her problems and not "the" problem. This is the fourth one and I'm six months into it. Why does it still hurt so bad?

howmuchmore - it hurts for the simple reason that we are all created in the image of God. Why do you suppose God lamented so much over His "adulterous" children? Because they "left" their first love (God) and turned to other things.

God gave us our emotions as well as our desire for our spouse. It is no surprise to me that Jesus did not want to endure the Cross. As a fully human man Jesus felt all the emotional responses we feel. He did NOT want to endure the Cross if there was any other way to accomplish the atonement for our sins.

Yet He also demonstrated the very difficult (humanly speaking) "correct response" to adversity and our emotional responses. Nevertheless, "not my will but your will (the Father's) be done."

God also recognizes that WE are not "God incarnate."
We are His created children, and while we are not struggling as Christ did with the sins of the entire world, we are struggling with the sins of "our entire world" that are destroying our "one flesh" union with our spouse. In short...it HURTS.

Through it all, though, God is teaching each of us that what is truly important is our relationship with Him through Christ. We are the bride of Christ, each and every one of us. Make no mistake about it, God considers marital adultery to be so serious that the penalty for it used to be death. With the advent of Jesus, the "death penalty" for adultery was erased (let him who is without sin cast the first stone). Therefore the faithful spouse was not released from the marriage vow by way of "until death do us part." And Jesus also understood how incredibly difficult it would be for a faithful spouse to both forgive a repentant WS and to continue to live with them AS husband and wife, to say nothing of an unrepentant spouse. Therefore, Jesus also granted the faithful spouse the right to a divorce if they could not overcome the emotional onslaught brought on by adultery.

Despite the denials of the WS, adultery HURTS everyone. It is the willful infliction of pain and suffering on someone else, all in the name of selfishness (pursuing what makes "me" feel good regardless of anything or anyone else).

Why does it continue to hurt so bad? Because it's like rubbing salt into the wounds. They never heal and each time salt is applied, it increases the level of pain.

God bless.

HMM, this is precisely why Jesus gave us Matthew 18:15-20. This instruction is for BELIEVERS.

While none of us is immune from temptation, or from sinning, the focus of all believers should be on this: "If you love me, obey my commands." Our expected response to God's love for us and our love for Jesus and what His tremendous sacrifice on our behalf cost Him is OBEDIENCE to God's commands.

When someone is ensnared by sin, the response is outlined in that passage from Matthew. The ultimate goal is restoration of full fellowship for the sinner, but make no mistake about it either, the "intensity" of the admonition to repent and turn back to God increases with each step SO THAT it is clear that "excuses" to sin won't cut it with God.

It ends with "Plan B." But not until exhausting the intervening steps. The issue in adultery is even more clear. Not one single unrepentant adulterer will be in heaven. God does NOT "grade on the curve" and weigh "good behavior" against "sins." God has made it clear that a believer who does not believe their adultery is a sin that is incompatable with a saving faith will be in the crowd that He tells "away from me your evildoers, I NEVER knew you."

They can "think" they are a Christian all day long, but they are not. Their actions (continued adultery) give an indication that their profession of belief in Christ may be "just words" and not a heartfelt conviction and surrender of their entire life TO Christ, and to humble obedience of His Word.

You may need to consider a "loving confrontation." For what it is worth, my OPINION is that anyone engaging in multiple affairs CANNOT be a believer. I know that's a bit extreme and I also know that there might be an exception, but multiple affairs seems to indicate a lack of true repentance of the sin of adultery and that, coupled with the biblical truth that unrepentant adulterers will not be in heaven, leads me to my opinion.

Either way, your concern for your wife should be first for her soul, regardless of whether or not you remain married to her.

God bless.

*Bump* for mortarman, hoping to here your reply about how much interaction you had with WW while separated. I'm feeling like I want to somehow help her with things, but not sure if I should be in hard "B" mode.

Sorry I missed this HMM!

Once I went to Plan B, I had almost zero direct interaction with her. We traded IM's and text messages. Once I was in Plan B, we maybe talked 5 times in 5 months...all talks were less then two minutes...and all kid related. That is until she finally came to me and wanted to talk about reconciliation.

Since you are in Plan A, then you will need to fill her needs where you can. My wife moved into an apartment the first time she left us. She lived about 20 minutes away. I did two things with her living there. First, I met needs where I could. She was a nursing student and had little money. So, the kids and I would occasionally slide some groceries in the back seat of her car while she was at work (this was great for the kids to see as they could see that Dad was still taking care of her!). Or, on Valentines Day, the kids and I bought flowers, gifts, cards, etc and left them in the back seat of the car. Things like this POed the Troll (OM) royally! He would come over to see her and spend the night...and have to walk by or sleep by the flowers and gifts that I had bought her. Shoot...one time, I bought Creed tickets and had my oldest son who was 11 I think at the time, take his mom to the concert. While they were there, I had put together one of those huge, 25 picture frames for hanging on the wall. I put all pictures of the family...her and I holding the kids when they were babies...wedding photos, etc. When they came back from the concert, I gave it to her and it hung on her wall (and again ticked off the Troll!!). Another time, when she was deathly ill (I mean REALLY sick), I left thek ids with my mom for three days, came over and stayed with her, bought about $200 in drugs, and other comfort stuff...and took care of her (the Troll didnt want to do it). Even when her apartment had a water problem...I invited her to stay the night while they cleaned it up (and some SF happened...which again POed the Troll!! You starting to get a theme here???).

The second thing I did was continue to put pressure on the adulterous relationship (I hate calling it an affair...makes it sound so exciting...instead of the disgusting thing it is). I would write her letters, continuing to express to her what can be, and continuing to point out that her realtionship is adultery, that she is damaging the kids, and her relationship with God. And that she wont be able to go much further before she will feel God's discipline.

Too many BSs on here think Plan A is being nice all of the time...and that is patently not true!! Plan A is meeting needs, becoming attractive to your WS again. A part of that is gaining their respect again (a spouse that respects their spouse does NOT commit adultery!). The gaining of respect comes from you establishing boundaries and enforcing them. Letting them understand what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior.

So, I would avoid being "clingy." But I would look for opportunities to meet needs AND to drive wedges between OM and your WW. Remember, ALL WSs and OPs are liars. They trust no one...including each other! So, if you can creat doubt, if you can make the OM think something else is going on...then even with her denials, there will be a rift there because he will not trust her (for GOOD reason!!!). And they will begin to love bust each other all over the place.

And in the meantime, here is HMM...loving, consistent, transparent. The comparison will be stark and your wife will begin to notice.

I will tell you this. In a recent conversation with my wife, she told me about the Troll continuing to push her to move to Florida where he lives now. He wanted her to leave the kids with me and just go. Ask yourself this question...why? Why didnt he, if he loved Mrs. Mortarman, just move back to Virginia so she could be with her kids? Could it be that he was afraid of the tie she had with the kids and me? Could it be that he knew that my kids would have NEVER accepted him? Could it be that he knew how she really felt about me, and the only way I wouldnt be a threat was to move her away from me and the kids?

And all of this began to open my wife's eyes.

Keep asking the questions, HMM. As I said, Plan A her where you can. And begin to get your legal act together and enforce boundaries.

PS...one more quick note...my boundaries with the kids was absolute! Their home remained with me. They "visited" her. I also stated that should she bring the Troll anywhere near them, I would immediately file for divorce and full custody. Also, on school nights, they were to be home (remember, home is where she left...not where she went to) by 8:30pm. I had no problems with weekday visitations. But they were going to be in their beds, homework done and ready for school the next day. Not in a one bedroom efficiency, sleeping on the couch.

howmuchmore,

You wrote:


and


I have faith in Mortarman to guide you in your Plan A and Plan B. For now, I do not wish to discuss that. What I WOULD like to discuss though is WHY. You are hurting deeply. This is the fourth adulterous relationship. WHY did God allow it?

I have to confess that I asked all those same questions myself. At the time of my exH's multiple A's, I was not a practicing believer and in fact I had begun to go to synagogue with my exH! I had chosen a non-believer for a spouse and I was CLEARLY not in obedience to God. Nonetheless, I couldn't help but wonder WHY he was having all the A's but had plenty of money and someone who loved him, whereas I was doing the right thing but had two kids to raise all by myself, was struggling financially, and had no one who loved me! WHY!!!!!

howmuchmore, what I am about to say may shock you, but it hit me one day like lightening. God allowed this to happen to me because *I* needed it!!! Suffering and hurting are not "bad"--in fact, often some of life's best lessons are learned via suffering. For most of my former marriage, I thought I was the one with a problem--and I had plenty--but through the adulteries I did learn that I was not the ONLY ONE with issues. I LEARNED about how ot have a healthy relationship and what real love is (it is not a "feeling" but a decision!). I LEARNED that God's time is not our time, and that years for Him is but a second--and HIS timing is perfect, not mine. I LEARNED that I needed to obey Him even when I thought it made absolutely no sense. I LEARNED that I was not the only way that God could move in the life of my exH, and I had to give him to GOD to work with as He would--not how *I* would! I LEARNED.

howmuchmore, God allowed this to happen because through suffering and pain, sometimes we learn to come closer to Him. He allowed it because He LOVES you and is willing to allow you to suffer "for a season" now so that you can more fully and more intimately know HIM.

In conclusion, I have a lesson for you that almost killed me. "In EVERYTHING give thanks, for this is the will of God, in Christ Jesus, concerning you." --I Thes. 5:18. howmuchmore, have you given thanks for the affair yet? Have you thanked God for the chance to learn and grow closer to Him? Have you thanked God for your WS and that through her you are growing? Have you thanked God that you get to raise the kids alone and see how much a FATHER loves his children? Have you thanked God for the OP--who by the way is also a dearly loved child of God whom He wishes to save? I will admit...that's the one I had trouble with. I argued with God over that one...

CJ: "You can not POSSIBLY mean that I'm supposed to thank you for the OP!! There is NO WAY I can do that!!!"

God: "What does it say?"

CJ: "In everything give thanks..."

God: "Does it say 'except in the instance of affairs when yhou don't have to do it'?"

CJ: "No"

God: "Or "except for the OP, you don't have to give thanks for them'?"

CJ: "No"

God: "Then you have to decide if you will give thanks in EVERYTHING or only in things you want to or things that don't hurt or aren't hard..."

CJ: *sigh* "Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. But I'm going to throw up when I thank you for OW."

God: "That's fine. Hold your hair back and obey."

And I did. Oddly enough, after that I didn't think of my exH as MY husband but as one of God's children...and I didn't think of OW as some gross, awful, hateful slut but as one of God's children who was WAY off path!

My brother, I am sorry this hurts so much. I am sorry that you must endure pain and suffering due to a decision that your WW is making. But God has allowed it, and I trust HIM and so for some reason I do not yet see, He thought it was for your best and allowed it.

Now...go give thanks to Him for loving you so much that He'd allow you to suffer.

Your faithful friend,


CJ

temporary TJ!!!

Thanks to OW??????
NO THANKS!!!
Either I go to ****** for not doing it, or God forgives me of the sin of NOT doing it. But ... I AIN'T DOIN' IT!!!

Done ...

rltraveled,

Not thanks TO the OW...thanks FOR the OW.

And BTW, I realize this is a tall order, but the verse does not say, "In all the easy things that don't hurt and that you're actually thankful for, give thanks..." it says "In EVERY THING give thanks for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you." And yep, I actually did throw up at the time when I was praying to give thanks for the OW, because I was SO mad and SO hurt and just HATED her! She stole my H and did not care in the least that he had children!

But rltraveled, in case you haven't noticed, MB is counter-intuitive to what a "normal" BS response would be...and being a believer is even more counter-intuitive than that! We are supposed to love our enemies and pray for them. We are supposed to repay evil with good. So I prayhed for the OW and thanked God that He had allowed her to come into our lives at that time in order to teach me a lesson. Now, He may have wanted to teach WH something too, but I had to worry about me--and God had to worry about WH! Anyway, because of OW I learned to never take a marriage for granted--NEVER. Because of OW, I learned to obey God again. Because of OW, I learned that love is deciding to treat someone in a loving way--not a "feeling" that feels all warm and smooshy and comes over you. Because of OW, I learned that even the unlovely people are valuable and loved by God. Because of OW, I learned that pain can be good and not to avoid things that hurt because they can make me grow. Because of OW, I learned to "trust in the Lord with all my heart and not lean on my own understanding."

See? I learned a lot of valuable, priceless stuff because she came into our lives at that time. And it hurt me A LOT...and I threw up the first time I said I was thankful (even though my heart wasn't quite there yet)...but being obedient means OBEYING even when it makes no sense and you don't want to.

((rltraveled))

Your faithful friend,


CJ

P.S.--howmuchmore, I am so sorry! I completely threadjacked your thread! We'll take it to a new thread if we wanna talk more.

CJ, I am at a place today that I can accept and understand the OM being God's child too. Like I said, after dealing with other adulterous relationships in my marriage and healed from them, you begin to see things differently. I didn't stop loving my wife when she betrayed me. Not all OM are womanizing, abusing people.

Most of them are just hurting people like my wife, trying to get their questions answered in the wrong place. I don't think any of the OM in my situation (well maybe one) have set out to "conquer" my wife. I think they were confused, had no real identity in Christ, and my wife thought they were the answer to her questions, which pumped them up and made them feel great about themselves.

It doesn't hurt that my wife is gorgeous, either, I'm sure. In fact, on that subject, I have realized that there are in fact many beautiful women in this world, not just my wife. My current season of life has taught me that beauty is very much accentuated by my love for her. Don't get me wrong, my wife is truly beautiful by anyones standards, but to me she is truly the most beautiful woman alive... still. Little sidebar there.


I have really been convicted and moved by Mortarman's comments. They are very much in line with my counselor, pastor and a couple of close friends. I know that this season of my life, while I didn't ask for, want, or directly initiate, brings opportunity for me to grow. God has something for me in this.

I'm only now starting to really know deeply my need for Christ to be very first in my life. I have been so co-dependent on my wife that my sense of value and worth came from how she was feeling about me, rather than how God feels about me and who He says I am.

It sounds cliche, but truly, to be healthy in an earthly relationship, Christ has to be first for both parties. Otherwise, it's just as fragile as the human condition. People will fail you. Event the ones you trust would never harm you. Jesus is truly the only person you can go too, and count on to be there no matter what. He has to be first in a healthy marriage. He wants me to know that and I believe that my relationship with Him is more improtant to Him than my marriage. I believe He wants to see that I will follow Him no matter what. My wife has held a higher position in my life than God has. And now I'm being forced to rearrange.

I don't know how many of you have read any John Eldrige stuff, but her suggests that a man must have his own story, his own adventure to invite a woman to come along beside him in. I don't think I've ever really had that. I really think it' stime for me to "get a life". A life centered around Christ. I believe that the rest of this will take care of itself (whether or not that means my marriage is restored yet again or not). I had many more thoughts to share and wanted to reply to some of Motarman's comments, but I am exhausted. Mortarman, you have said some things that other close friends have said to me, but because you've walked in my shoes, there is meaning in your words that can't be felt from someone who doesn't know the pain first hand. There seems to have been a slight (very slight) change in climate between my wife and myself the past few days. Im' not putting any hope in that at all because I'm sure it will turn around many times before this is resolved, however that may be. Currently, I'm struggling with how much conversation I should have with her. It's hard.