I posted a thread in Divorcing/Divorced but it's not getting much traffic - peek there if you want more details.

The bottom line is this: I still have feelings for my ExH. His GF of about 18 months (6 months online/live-in for a year) just left him.

I'm glad she's gone for many reasons.

The marriage did not end over an A (although he had a long PA about 10 years ago) - that was the beginning of the end. Worked at it, MC the whole bit - he didn't get treatment for his depression til after we split.

We both entered new relationships post-separation and pre-divorce, but at one point shortly before the divorce I approached him about saving the marriage - he was sorta kinda open to it at the time, but was involved with Internet girlfriend. He wouldn't commit to the marriage so I went ahead with the divorce.

I'm not about to approach him right now - he needs at least a few months of alone time to get over this bad situation he was in - but is it ridiculous of me to even consider letting him know how I feel, a few months down the road, or should I just smack myself and try to quit thinking about it? I can't change how I feel, but I AM in control of whether or not to share those feelings or act on them.

Part of me wants to try to repair my torn, battered family - but part of me thinks I'm nuts for wanting to...

Any ideas?

JinGA

Quick post. Haven't read your thread.

Your signature line doesn't mention kids but you mention repairing family. Do you have kids?

Have you examined all reasons why you filed and went through with the D?

Have any of those reasons been resolved, i.e. his continued treatment for depression?

Are you between relationships and just lonely with no one on the horizon so you're doing the what ifs?

Just questions to consider. Are you really interested in resuming a R or just not involved w/anyone.

I agree that you should wait a bit before approaching him if at all. I'm sure others more experienced will chime in soon.

There are some here who have gotten back together and remarried and I know some personally who have. I don't think it's ever too late. I think the real question is have both of you learned from your past mistakes and are both of you in a better emotional state to tackle the problems that you know exist .............. like trust and fidelity?

Yes, 2 teenagers.


Yes. I believe I've grown and learned from my own mistakes - that's all that's in my control. I don't know about him - I've seen some changes in him, good ones. That is what has kept me feeling this way.


Yes. After we split he finally sought treatment. Took a while but for the last 2 years or so he's been on the "right" medicines and he has learned to recognize when he's having an off day - it's "him" now, not "everybody else" or "me". That was a HUGE step for him.


I'm not in a relationship - but I'm ok with that insofar as my daily life goes. I'm not sitting waiting for my phone to ring, and I'm not out looking for somebody. Life is good for my kids and me.


I believe I am interested in exploring a reconciliation with him. I just don't know if that's even a possibility for him - and right now would be the absolute *worst* time to share that with him. My feelings for him are what they are, and likely always will be. However, what happened in the past between us, necessitated my divorcing him. I can't change how I feel, but I *can* control whether to act on those feelings or not. I'm not the only part of the equation though. If I'm interested and he's not, it's a moot point. I do want him to be happy - if he'd found real happiness in his last relationship, I'd have been the first to wish him well. It's hard to explain, really.


Of course. It would be foolish at best to do anything about this right now. He needs time. I need to think about it some more too. And if/when the time comes that it would seem appropriate to let him know how I feel, I could well be shot down.

I just wonder if now that he's seen for himself that the grass isn't necessarily greener, might he realize what he threw away? The biggest IF in this, is not so much whether he feels the same way - he well might - however if the behaviors that pushed me to the point of divorcing him haven't changed, then it's also a moot point. I do see some changes he's made - but I'm not his wife anymore, so until I was in a dating/partner situation again with him, I wouldn't know for sure. I know trust would be a big issue because all the trust was gone at the end. I've forgiven all of it, but I'm not likely to forget.

IF he were to be interested again, I'd need him to be able to show me that those mistakes wouldn't be repeated. That would likely mean a lot of counseling and a lot of communicating.


I know I've learned, and I'm still a work in progress. I'd do a lot of things differently. I'm a strong person and always have been, but I've become stronger since. I'm confident in myself and what I can bring to the relationship - but I don't know where he is on those things. I'd like to find out down the road.

And that's why I'm here asking questions - so that people with a more objective point of view can ask me the tough questions so I can ask them of myself.

It could go either way - he may come to me eventually and tell me that he realizes now what he's lost, and that he's willing to work to get it back. That would be awesome.

OR he could just no longer have those feelings for me, or not have changed the bad things that he owns that drove us apart, or it could just be too much "work"... I don't know.

I'll never know how he feels unless he either makes a move at some point, or I do. When he was open to reconciling during the separation, he never told me. When I was open to it, it was too late. He'd moved on, and that didn't last.

I'd like to think that I'm better wife material than I was when I was married. Older, wiser, learned some hard lessons, and don't want to repeat old mistakes.

It will only work if he's got the same attitude.

Time will tell. I'm not in a hurry.

Thanks for the thought provoking comments - that's exactly what I need right now - to think it all through and examine the history to make sure I'm not thinking of making another mistake - or to decide if it's worth risking once again if the opportunity still exists.

JinGA

all those issues which Life2 mentioned are important.

However as you seem to be ok with a lot of that from your post the question is of course what your ex H is feeling and if he is as far along the path as yourself.

I feel your decision to give it a lot of time is the right one however to do that and consider where your ex is at you need some sort of contact.

Is it possible to have a 'coffee' every now and then with him without being seen as seeking anything more than friendship for now? Something like that to find out how he is going and where he is at?
I guess so much depends on the type of relationship you two have post divorce.

hope it starts you thinking anyway <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We've been amicable throughout. We own a business together, and he comes in to help on weekends. Due to pressure from his g/f, he had 6 months "off"... he walked away back in July but returned in January when we were shorthanded and he has thusfar limited his time to weekends, but now that GF is gone, he *might* come in some evenings too (we own a retail store - he had a regular 8-4 job). Before she came along, he worked Tues-Wed-Thurs evenings as well as weekends.

When his GF dropped the bomb, he came to my house but I wasn't home. I was out with my kids - he phoned me, asking if the kids were with me, and said he'd dropped off some of their things that they'd forgotten at his place. That prompted me to ask if he'd taken the day off (it was lunchtime) and that's when he broke down to tell me about it.

Perhaps I am reading too much into it - but I felt like he needed/wanted to tell me that, otherwise he'd have waited to drop off the stuff at the house. He expected to see me (sorta glad I was out "having a life" on my own with the kids). Normally I would have thought I'd be the last person he'd tell, but I think I was the first.

That weekend at work, he seemed more "himself" than he had been in a while. We talked a bit about the situation - I don't pry, but I was concerned for how *he* was, and we shared a couple of jokes and laughs - he seemed a lot more relaxed.

He also told me, "what goes around, comes around" - meaning when she dumped him, HE was the one crying and SHE was cold and unemotional. In the M, he was often the stone cold one and I was the emotional one. I didn't understand what he meant at that moment, but when I thought about it a bit - that's the closest he's come to "owning" his faults in what caused the marriage to fail. Being cold and closed was a HUGE LB to me. Now he knows what it's like to be on the receiving end. I'm not happy that he experienced that - but it was rather impressive that he acknowledged it.

So I think he's made or making *some* changes. I don't know if he's made all the ones that would fall within my boundaries.

Now that GF is gone, at the very least I feel like I can have the friendship again. At times he was adversarial with GF in the picture - as if being friends with me (appropriately friends, nothing more), was some kind of betrayal of the GF. She pressured him, but HE is responsible for his actions. After the bomb was dropped I felt like he was OK with being himself because he didn't have to try to prove himself to her anymore.

I have not seen him outside of work, but work is a social environment. Before his GF moved here, we used to have dinners out as a family. Even when I started a new relationship, as weird as this sounds, we still had dinner as a group on Friday nights. That ended with the arrival of GF, mainly because I thought it was time to end the false hope. He did spend Thanksgiving and Christmas of 05 with us as a family - the divorce was final between then. After that I put an end to "family" activities as all it did was create false hope for all of us, he was intent on continuing in his relationship at that time (same relationship that just ended).

I've considered whether to try to re-initiate family activities but I'm on the fence. I don't want to start the false hope cycle again... but then again, if he feels like he's part of the family again, he may be motivated to earn that back. My only concern with that is that if he wants it back I want to be sure he wants his life back, not just the "lifestyle" - which is what I think happened before. He wanted the lifestyle, but didn't want to do the work to make the family complete with a marriage.

Our son's birthday is a week from now. Last year for both our kids we had a "cake and pizza" party at our business, after hours - with my BF and his GF and her kids present. This year is a different story - we're back to being "just us" (my kids and me) and just him. Not sure if I should approach a "family" type scenario.

I think I'll just ask my son what *he* would like to do and go from there. The last thing I want to do is manipulate a situation.

JinGA

For clarity - when we spent the holidays together in 05, I had ended my other relationship. Around that time I approached H on the subject of reconciliation, he was happy to play "family man" to be with us at the holidays etc., but he was still going to pursue the other relationship, so that's when I went ahead with the D. After the first of the year, I resumed the other relationship again, and it burned out after the first of this year. In my heart I knew that wouldn't last, but I went along for the ride, and knew when it was time to let it go.

Now I've got my spam together, I know what it is that I want, but I'm not going to just settle for XH if it's not the real deal, nor for anyone else who happens to come along. I'm content on my own, and IF/WHEN the time is right, I'll know.

JinGA

Well ... we're about to have a "family" event. Our DS has a birthday Friday and when I asked him what he wanted to do, he said he wants us all to go bowling.

XH is agreeable to that. I don't mind now that his "entourage" is gone. We worked together on the weekend and all was normal. He's coping well with his loss, although there is still contact there from the sound of things. It's not an A... we're divorced... but until she's completely gone, there's no moving in any direction. It's still way too soon anyway.

He did turn up on my "online turf" today though. He posted in a message forum on a subject related to our business - a hobbyist site (what we do, involves people in a hobby).

I'd posted some pictures of him that I took on the weekend, of an event in our business that is unusual. He knows I posted them - we laughed about it - but he actually registered for the site and posted to the thread with a joke.

He was a member of that forum previously but hadn't posted there since 2003. Not sure what to make of that, if anything... it's likely nothing, I was just surprised to see him turn up there.

JinGA

JinGa,

I talked to my daughter's therapist the other day. My WS asked to come home about a month ago...it was all talk. That's besides the point. What I wanted to say is that my daughter's therapist said that sometimes, WS have to lose it all before they finally realize what they lost in the first place. It sounds like now your XH has lost it all and he's finally coming around. I guess I wouldn't put all of my cards out there right now. Spend time together if he suggests it, but don't bring up relationship stuff quite yet. Make him come to you. Show him what he is really missing and make him ask for it back.

Just my two cents...

Well it may be too early to say he's coming around. I think the way his relationship with GF is concluding, he's realizing a thing or two about how it is to be the emotional one when the other person is cold - but that's a far cry from an epiphany.

I'm fairly sure from things he's said, that he's still in contact with (X?)GF. She moved out and back to her home state last week - so the physical relationship is over, but emotionally I don't think it's over yet.

Having said that, it's way too soon for me to share my feelings - he's got enough going on to sort himself out. His relationship is going to have to burn out first, and he's going to need some alone time for a while *before* can even think of letting him know how I feel.

Meanwhile, I'm just carrying on with my life as usual. And where he's concerned, when we work together on weekends, I'm being the same person I've always been, insofar as little kindnesses. I've never really changed in that way (good way). We put our kids first, he's faltered there a few times, but now without somebody else pulling him in another direction, he can refocus there - he hasn't abandoned his kids, but there have been times when his kids went without, and GF's kids didn't (his GF didn't work, didn't drive... can you say, "MEAL TICKET"?)

I have been supportive of him since he told me she was leaving him - he was devastated. When I ended my post-M relationship, he was supportive of me.

I have NOT told my children how I have been feeling. They know I still love their father - they have always known that. But I have not said anything new that would fill them with any sort of hope - that wouldn't be fair, and IF down the road he and I were to explore the idea of reconciliation, I wouldn't put the kids in the loop until I felt comfortable that there was something there. Kids go through enough.

I'd like to think that at some point he already realized what he'd lost. I think he did, but at the time he may have been too angry or depressed to believe he could earn it back. By the time I approached him on it, he'd found GF and didn't want to let that go in favour of something that would have taken more work to fix, than courting somebody who was needy and looking to "settle". Path of least resistance.

Time will tell if he realizes, and if and when the time is right I may say something, but now is not that time.

Meanwhile, my life is good. I do things with my kids, go to work, take care of business. I am not going out of my way to run into him. He was supposed to stop by our business last night to fix something (business is closed on Mondays) - I did NOT show up there. In fact, I was busy with something else.

I will not rearrange my life to make "coincidences". If he wants to see me, he can call or email, and if there's nothing else going on, I'll be there. I'm not going to be clingy and needy - in fact I'm finding ways to get help when I need it around the house - a friend and her husband came over Sunday to help me get my lawn mower working, etc. I have never asked XH to come over to fix things, or do things - I need to be able to make my own way, and I've got some awesome friends, whom I'm there for, and who are there for me.

If I don't "NEED" him for every little thing, it may help him "want" to be around. I think the last thing I'd want to do is appear needy and clingy. I'm not. And to some degree I was before - although for 2 years of our M he worked in another city and was only home one weekend a month - I learned how to be independent of him - and that's what helped me when I'd finally reached the point of no return in the M - by then I had the confidence to know I would be OK on my own.

I do want to explore reconciliation - but it's not an overnight thing. IF it's even something that's possible for him, it's going to take a long rebuilding process if it's going to happen at all.

I know he doesn't hate me. I know that he cares about me, about his kids - I just don't know if that "level" of care would still be enough to do what it takes to put his family back together.

It's a start - and like I said for now it's just going to be a matter of some time before I see if it's impractical of me to even consider this.

Before GF moved here, even when he was pursuing a relationship with her, he used to spend a lot of time with us as a family. It's like he wanted the lifestyle, but not the responsibilities that went with it. When I clued in that he was 'cake eating', I put a stop to it.

I'm wondering that once he's over the novelty of a quiet apartment (no GF, no GF's kids, no revolving door of kids' friends coming, going, messing the place up..) wears off, if a bit of loneliness sets in for him, will HE start finding reasons to hang around again? He may not - that habit may have been broken, OR he may try to slip into that habit again.

If he does start that behavior again, I think it's reasonable to have a private talk with him just to find out what his intentions are.

If his kids and I are a "convenience" until he finds the next relationship, I'm not interested. However, if he spends time with us because he wants to, and because it could be a means to a reconciliation, then I'll be all over that - but slowly.

Guess we'll have to see.

What I wonder most is if any menfolk reading this, have been in a similar sort of situation, and what went through your mind and heart... and did it work out? Or did you ever tell your XW how you felt?

JinGA

Well last night was interesting. XH brother showed up. He lives far away but he's an OTR truck driver and we see him often. Sometimes he stays with kids and me, sometimes with XH. XH knew he was coming, but didn't tell me.

XH is broke right now but his bro wanted to go out to dinner with him. I exchange business services at a local restaurant for food credit, so I offered to take bro and my kids and I out, and told bro he could invite XH.

XH declined. No problem - if he wants to sit at home alone, that's his choice. XH had stopped by the business to attend to something, he stayed a while longer and did a couple of extra things, then his bro left to go to my place to do his laundry, XH went home and I stayed to finish up the business day.

XH called me 15 minutes later to ask if I was "buying" dinner (ie using our credit at the restaurant) - to which I replied in the affirmative. So then he asked me to pick up some take-out for him and drop it off on my way home (he lives about a mile from me, and his place is on the way home). I asked if he was sure he didn't just want to join us... and he declined. Fair enough - I'm not going to push it - I guess it's because of "me" because if he could get a free dinner with his children and his brother he'd usually take it. Well I wasn't going to miss out so I went.

We dropped off the take-out on the way home.

I thought that was kind of rude... he wasn't rude about it, I just thought it was kind of "socially backward".

My guess is he had an online date with the GF that moved last week.

This morning, I was on my way home from taking DD to school and meeting my female friend for breakfast (I do that 3 mornings a week), and I saw XH heading for work (we passed each other on the road)... he was already 5 mins late for work at that point, with a 40 minute commute ahead of him. I guess he slept in...

Bro also told me that their mother told him that she also saw the GF's departure as imminent and was going to say so to XH. I don't see the point in rubbing his nose in it, I'm sure he feels bad enough as it is... but that confirms to me that his mother didn't think much of the GF. I know the brother didn't - but we kept our opinions between us.

It's like a soap opera...

JinGA

332 views and only 4 responses... I kind of feel like I'm talking to myself - I could really use a bit of input from anyone who's been there...

That's OK just being able to verbalize it here helps... so I'll keep talking if only to myself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

XH stopped by the business on his way home for about 90 minutes. Gee it would be nice if he'd say, "Go home, spend some time with the kids"... but that's a bit much to expect <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Anyway I didn't expect to see him today but he came to check on a couple of things he'd been working on. He doesn't stay long - not til closing time even though I could use the extra help (I work alone otherwise).

I asked how the take-out food was, that I got for him last night - gave me a thumbs up. I remembered that he liked it a certain way and asked for that - I asked if I got it right - I remembered. He said yes, but the kids would have known.. ok whatever.. *I* remembered and I thought I was being thoughtful to even accommodate his request in the first place but perhaps I'm being a bit sensitive - and I didn't make an issue of it. I'm keeping my emotions in check.

My friend and her daughter stopped by and we were all chatting and my friend asked how he was holding up - he said he was ok (in reference to his gf leaving). She made some comment about how when her XH left she was all happy to have the bed to herself - he said no he wasn't feeling that, he felt that when he FIRST got his own place (after I asked him to move out.. THANKS). I said I'd never felt like that. I didn't elaborate but the truth was I missed my husband. Although he wasn't in an A when the marriage dissolved, he was taken over by aliens...he wasn't the same person I'd married at that point.

He commented that he missed her kids - well when she was here, he always complained to me about the kids - the son was "unmanagable" (his word), failing in school (no surprise being moved here and there), and the daughter was "whiny" (I witnessed that myself on numerous occasions when he brought the g/f daughter here to our place of business).

He did say he didn't miss some of her kids' antics.

I wonder if he misses living with his own children except for every other weekend? Of course I didn't ask that - but I wonder it. He loves our kids - and they are GOOD kids, good in school, good socially - all things considered they have done very well.

He left before my friend did. My friend said to me earlier that she thinks he's going to eventually come around and want to come back - I get that feeling sometimes and other times I don't. After he left, I asked her if she still thought so, after speaking with him. She said that that road is seldom "direct" but she still thinks he'll want to come home at some point.

Clearly he hasn't let go of the GF and even though she moved across the country, they are still in some sort of contact.

OH and before he left he'd asked me if I'd cash a check for him for $50 and hold his check til payday. I DID offer to help him if he was stuck - I never made such an offer when non-working GF was with him - because I would not have wanted to put any money in her pocket - but I did offer after she left, because she drained him financially (and he allowed it - 3 mouths to feed and she didn't work)...

So now I'm wondering - am I being foolish about this?

I want to show him that I'm compassionate and that I'm still there for him. However I don't want to be taken advantage of, and I don't want to be an enabler.

The loan is til payday - and it will likely take him a few pay cycles to get back on his feet - she kept him overdrawn for most of the year she was here - his bank notices still come to my house as he never changed his address with the bank, so I always knew when he was broke.

Am I foolish to help him out, or is it the right thing to do to show him that I still care?

There's a fine line. In our M, I took care of all things financial, did it well and while we never had a lot, I always made sure we had enough. He's learned the hard way that balancing the budget is NOT easy. I don't want to make a habit of bailing him out if he's irresponsible - that would be a mistake - but at the same time I want to show him that I care.

Same with getting him food last night - that came out of our business - I trade services with the restaurant, so technically that's part his too - and it was a favour for me to do that for him.

I find myself having trouble knowing how to be with him. Obviously we are divorced, we are still friends, the friendship part is more relaxed now that GF is no longer living with him... but where do I draw the line?

On one hand I want to "be attractive" and subtly let him know the door is open if he wants it, but on the other hand I don't want to be used for convenience (money, meals etc.) until he figures himself out.

I could really use some guidance here...I know you all can't predict what he's thinking or feeling - but some help in how I need to be would certainly be helpful.

I don't dare reveal my feelings at this early point, but I suppose I should down the road.

JinGA

JinGa,

I wish I could offer advice from my standpoint, but I find myself following your thread to see what I envision will very much be my reality sometime in the future.

I envision my ex being dumped by her current bf and repeatedly rejected in future relationships because it is tough to date someone who has 3 toddlers and doesn't want the "instant family".

I am finding that women are more open minded about this, but I think men are less so.

So, that being said, I believe your approach of being attractive and warm is the key. A Plan A, if you will, combined with a 180. If anything, the 180 very much applies to you right now. It is a perfect plan to follow and tells you exactly what to do and how to act.

I would have all of the same questions as you do if my ex decided to come back.

Like you, however, you are much wiser from the past experience and are likely to never be duped again.

So, the advice I have to give as someone standing outside looking in and hoping to be in a similar situation someday is to do the 180. This will let you keep an emotional distance while leaving the door open.

There is no substitute for the children than for them to have their biological parents together and getting along well.

Best of luck.

Thanks for the words of encouragement and support... I have some questions and an idea.

I'm curious about the "Plan A with a 180". Firstly I understand that Plan A and Plan B apply to a marriage. I'm divorced... so I understand that the dynamics are different and there's no legal basis to try to save a marriage that no longer exists (on paper).

My understanding of Plan A is to expose the affair and attempt to fix things about ourselves that need fixing in order to make the marriage more attractive to the WS. Since he wasn't married to me when his relationship happened, and since it's more or less over, it wasn't an "affair" - he was free to do as he pleased.

So if you could clarify what the "Plan A with a 180" is - I'm all ears.

I'm trying to be supportive and helpful, but not overbearing or controlling or smothering - I'm here but not in his face. Curious to see if he stops in here tonight and I'm both dreading and anticipating DS b'day events tomorrow night, to see how it goes.

Having said that.. I thought of an idea to implement, just not sure when... GF has only been gone a week, and I'm reasonably certain he's still in contact - they are likely sort of "weaning" - he's not moving out there, she's not coming back but they aren't just cutting the tie...at least not that I'm aware of.

It's way to fresh for him - the breakup of his relationship. However I need to time things right - far enough out of his old relationship but not so long that he might start up with somebody else. Hopefully he's going to give himself time and space...

Anyway my idea is this. *When* the time is right and I'm ready to be vulnerable and tell him just how I feel, I want to write him a letter explaining my feelings, and if I am able, slide it under his apartment door (I should be able to do this fairly easily unless I can't get it under the door). This way I can say what I want/need to say, carefully, without cornering him, surprising him, pressuring him - and without messing up my words or putting either of us on the spot.

I'll end it with something like... if you feel this way too, or if you want to talk about it, I'll be at our place of business at 9:00 PM (after closing, nobody around). Then I will be there and see if he shows up or not. It's kind of corny and maybe a bit romantic... but if he does not have those kinds of feelings, he's not trapped in a conversation. He'd have some hours (or a day if I make it for the next day or whatnot...) to think about his response and if he doesn't want to know, he doesn't have to show up. That way the ball is in his court to make a free decision without pressure - if he's game, he comes, if he's not, he doesn't - and if he doesn't, life goes on and I have my answer. If he does come, then we can talk a while and see how things stand, but at least he'll know how I'm feeling and it's his to choose whether or not to act.

Part of me fears rejection - but heck I've got nothing to lose at this point do I? The only thing to fear is that I'll know once and for all that it's over for him if he chooses not to come and talk, and then I have to just learn to deal with it, but the uncertainty will be gone.

I'm just not sure when I should do this? I can write the letter anytime - when I've got time I'll probably type out my thoughts, and once I've figured out what I want to say without going on ad infinitum (brevity is not my strong suit!) then I can put it into what I want to say, leave it with him and let him decide.

GF has only been gone 8 days. He's still not even close to being over that... so it's not like I'm going to run out and do this immediately (unless you male-types out there think it's a good idea but my gut says it isn't). However if I have my game plan ready, when the time is right I can do this and just see where it leads.

The biggest fear is rejection and humiliation - but that's not as bad as the longing and wondering. If I don't do it at some point, I will regret it. At least if I try and get shot down I'll know that ONE MORE TIME I gave it my best shot.

And if he does have any of those feelings left, we can build from the beginning. We can't undo all the mistakes of the past, but we can surely learn from them. I have. I think in at least some regards, he has too. I just don't know if the hurts of the past are too much for him to get past. I didn't break the vows - IMO I got hurt more than he (and the kids hurt the most) but everybody's tolerance of pain is different. I've forgiven - I won't forget but we can either hang on to hurt and be negative, or we can learn from those hurts and make things better.

I'd appreciate comments on this idea - and I'd really love to hear about Plan A with a 180. If I'm going to put myself out there again with him and be vulnerable, I want to put my best foot foward.

Life's too short not to take some chances. I've wasted enough time - I know I need to bide my time a bit, but I don't want to miss out either.

Thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

I guess that Plan A is the carrot part. Be warm, welcoming, friendly.

The 180 is a perfect guide. Not everything is applicable, but it is a perfect guide to interacting with spouse.

If anything, you're in a perfect position of strength to implement the 180.

Yes, it is designed to give the BS strength. But it is also a great way to interact with your ex WH and be welcoming.

The Plan A part is simply the "competition" part. Make the home warm and welcoming. Be positive, etc.

I implemented a terrible plan A and I have no hope that my ex will ever want to come back. There has been so many angry exchanges and disagreements over the kids with my ex that I don't think she will ever feel positive things for me again. She'll focus on the short term and dismisses all the long term stuff. The meat and potatoes of our marriage, which I still look back on with nostalgia. I still ask myself how she could let all of that go.

We were a family and I miss that.

The only thing I can think that will shake her up and make her see the reality is her having a bad experience with someone interacting poorly with the kids and the realization that no one will ever measure up with the kids like I do.

I can say with confidence that her 25 year old bf has no clue what he's in for.

I'm doing my best to move on and have made myself open to dating again for the first time in a year. I am done with the seclusion.

I think your romantic idea is very good. It reminds me of the scene in Friends when Ross and Rachel get together at the coffee shop.

Good idea. Like you said, what do you have to lose?

Yes, I also think you should wait for him to show signs of wanting to be with you.

We'll just have to wait and see.

Well he stopped here at our business on his way home. He didn't stay quite an hour - he checked again on a few things, we discussed some client issues, and our son's b'day plans for tomorrow. He was pretty laissez-faire about it - in other words, he'll go along with whatever I plan. Fair enough - I told him what the plan was and he was fine with it and I offered him an "out" if he wasn't OK with it. We'll go out about 7, bowling with the kids - I put him in charge of getting the cake with some certificates I gave him for a store that sells cakes (and other foods)...he said that was a good idea. Not sure if we'll do supper first or bowling - I asked what he'd like to do about supper, he said he didn't care - then he suggested the place where I do trade for restaurant credit, then he said, "why not ask DS what he'd like to do?" and he's fine with whatever DS decides. So I'll ask DS when I get home tonight and go from there.

Our DD has a band concert on Monday - we can both go to that, and I had thought that going in one vehicle might be smart but I'm not going to suggest that, lest it be "pushing". If he suggests it, I'll go along with it.

He was hard to "read" tonight. He might have been having a "down" day - he's had a few of those since GF dropped the bomb but by and large he's coping well. He's in a better emotional place than when we split, and face it, a 20-month or so thing isn't nearly as invested as a 20-year thing. My guess is that at least a part of him is relieved of a burdon - a woman and 2 kids to support that was ruining him financially. 4 people living in a 2 bedroom apartment... I was surprised he took all that on... a lot of things he did surprised me - I'd bet in hindsight they surprised him too (and likely his family).

I'm still curious about the "180"... what is that? I'm doing "Plan A" insofar as I'm trying to be kind and supportive - but honestly that much hasn't changed since we split up. I've had plenty of reasons to be angry and even hurtful - I had to take him to court last fall when he bounced a mortgage check (part of our property settlement) and I got a foreclosure call - that was on the heels of a 2 week road trip he took with the GF which he couldn't afford. That's all sorted out now, and even though I had him served with a contempt motion which he didn't make right before it went to court, (claims he didn't know he could fix it after papers were filed...) - we weren't hostile or hateful - it was what it was - a legal issue. He was in a bind and instead of communicating with me and working with me *through* the problem, he ignored it so I did what I had to do - but there has never been a fight about it, never been any hostility or words about it - and my guess is he made it right because he was "ordered" to, and thus he didn't have to explain to gf that he had a responsibility and obligation to someone other than her, FIRST. If he had been hostile about it, that would be another story - but he wasn't.

I'm just going to bide my time for now. See how things go with DS b'day tomorrow, see how the DD concert goes on Monday and take one day at a time. I will likely start working on the letter from home and it will take a long time to write, edit, re-write, rephrase, and once I've typed it all out, I will hand write the actual letter I deliver and wait for the appropriate time to deliver it. OR if things just go way south after these next couple of events, I will put it in my box of keepsakes and try to move on.

One way or another I feel like I have to get this communicated to him at some point, or I'll forever regret not having done so - even if it means being shot down.

I'd like to think that I'm not undesirable, I'm not a bad person - there are worse alternatives for him than repairing his family and moving forward again. In the situation he just finished, there was little or no hope of any sort of economic prosperity - and while money doesn't buy love, living in overdraft in a small apartment isn't good fodder for a lasting relationship either.

He did have it all, and he tossed it away once, and I worked as hard as I could to save it until I was tapped out emotionally. I wonder often if he regrets that - I'm sure on some level he does. However I've preserved it, and it's all still here - all he has to do is let me know that he wants it - by what he *does*, more than just saying so.

It's agony all over again - the waiting, the wondering, the self-doubt and second-guessing. Trying to read him to see if I'm fooling myself, or is there a glimmer of hope. For all I know he might well be feeling the same things - but I'm at least trying to demonstrate without being forward, that it's all still here... and perhaps he's being guarded for fear that he's misreading me...

Ah communication .... it solves so much. So why is it so scary?

JinGA

JinGA,

I read your thread on D/D. I have read this thread. One set of words keeps coming to my mind. Disrespectful Judgements, You should read up on them as they are the most deadly of all love busters, and you are making plenty.

You post conjecture after conjecture, and then post what you will NOT do. But, what you don't post is what you will DO.

What is your plan? I doubt seriously if your H will approach you without you making it clear he can. You divorced him, you invited him to leave the home and family. You have set the terms of all of this. You had a relationship after the D, as did he.

I don't see anywhere in all of this any kind of indication from you to him, that his presence is really wanted, other than to fulfil his role as father to the kids. Given that you took all of the actions, and given that he may well have changed, which would indicate an understanding of why you dumped him, then I would doubt that he would make any overtures toward you.

So how are you going to find out if he has changed? How is going to know that the door back is at least unlocked if not open? How is he going to see the new you?

In short conjecture without data or a plan, is really just a waste of time. IF you would like to reunite it seems to me the steps are obvious. You get to know him better, and that means being around him more. Engaging him in conversation and becoming is friend again. It is clear he trusts you in some ways or he would NOT have told you of his relationship failing and his feelings of emotion.

What are YOU going to do besides sit like a lump on a log???

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

I'm not sure I understand your questions/statements but since I'm here for help and advice, I'm going to ask questions, that I may better understand what you're trying to impart to me.


First off, I've been nothing but polite, respectful and diplomatic to XH. Any disrespect or anger I do have is toward the XGF that clearly used him and threw him away. I do acknowledge that he made this choice and allowed it to happen, but I haven't rubbed his nose in it - rather I've been nothing but helpful and supportive. He didn't deserve that - and regardless of what transpired between us, I never did anything to him that can even compare to what he's just been through with XGF. It's reasonable to say I'm biased, but at least one of his family members saw the same thing coming.

I have apologized to XH, long ago, about the hurt and blame that *I* own in the failure of the marriage. I've worked to change those things. I also acknowledge that a lot of what he owns, came from his untreated depression - which he sought treatment for after we parted. I have seen changes in him - for the better, and I've also acknowledged those to him.


Well IMO now isn't the time to "do" anything differently. It's way too soon out of his relationship for me to approach him. What *am* I doing? The same things I've done since we parted - I'm kind, I'm helpful, I'm here for him and I'm his friend. Even when we had legal issues when he dropped the ball, I let the attorney deal with it, and I was never angry, hateful or adversarial. I have forgiven, and continued day to day life without nagging, or other LB type behaviours. I've come a long way.

Sometimes it's best to do nothing if doing "something" is the wrong thing.

I'm quietly working to build up credits in the love back, albeit subtly. To just come out and be forward about it would likely get a negative reaction right now - and maybe it will in the future too - I don't know. He needs some time and space to grieve for the relationship that just ended. I'm sure the last thing on his mind right now is jumping back in with me, or with anyone else.

What I'm trying to "do" is figure out my feelings, and when and if I should act on them, and if so, *how* I should act on them.


I *am* trying to make it clear that he can, without hitting him over the head with it. What I'm trying NOT to do is come on too strong. I don't want to scare him away. I want to show him that all that was lost before, is still here for him, if he wants it. I don't know that he does - but I don't know that he doesn't. However a week after his girlfriend leaves is hardly a good time to walk up to him and ask him if he wants to work toward moving home again.

You say I set the terms of his leaving. Perhaps that's true, but it didn't come out of thin air. He was depressed, refused to acknowledge it, or seek treatment for it. He played around with drugs, we all walked on eggshells. I tried to work it out within the marriage, but when the other person is in that sort of "fog" - not an A, but he exhibited all kinds of "fog" symptoms, and seemingly was taken over by aliens as I've seen the analogy in reference to A behavior. The only difference was, at that point, there was no other person - but he was lost to himself.

I asked him to seek help, he refused. I tried to help - I can't fix him. Once my love bank was empty, I did ask him t move out. Once he did, he sought treatment, but he continued on a downward spiral. I felt I had to impose drug testing for him to have visitation with the kids - I never kept the kids from him, but until he agreed to a drug test, I didn't allow them to be with him without another adult present (myself or a mutual friend - the kids were unaware of the condition I'd set). He got clean. He's not failed a random drug test since. He has *made* some of the changes that were needed to have saved the marriage, but he did so AFTER he lost it all.

Before the D I tried to reconcile, but by then he'd moved on, so I let him go. I did not interfere in his relationship although anyone with eyes could see he was getting into a bad situation there.


My posts here in this forum have *nothing* to do with my children. This isn't about the children. It's about me and my feelings, and wondering if XH still has feelings for me. Of course it would be nice for my kids to have their family intact, but that's not the reason why I'm exploring my feelings and ideas here. If I was wanting to put things together again "for the kids" that would be a wrong reason.

The fact is, I never stopped loving my XH. I hated what he was doing, but love wasn't enough to keep it together. I never *wanted* to divorce - I wanted him to get his *hit together and get right with himself, with God, and with his family. At the end of the day, what I *wanted* didn't matter. One person can't make it work by themselves, so I did what I felt I had to do to protect myself and my kids. I didn't want to lose my kids if he got pulled over with drug paraphernalia in his car (and he did get pulled over once, with DS in the car, the day AFTER I'd thrown away some stuff he'd left in our car). I just couldn't live like that any longer.



Well as I've stated, the drug use has stopped - I have periodic tests to show that. I haven't felt the need to administer such a test since last August. He's never failed a test since about 6 weeks after I told him he'd need to pass a test to have alone time with our kids. He was angry at first, but once he got clean (he was an occasional user - nothing heavy...but it was there and it was a valid concern), it has not been a problem.

He has stayed on the antidepressant medications for over 2 years. It took close to a year to find the right "combination" for him, but when he finally did find the right "cocktail" I did tell him at the time that he had returned to being the man that I married. That's when I tried to reconcile but he already had a GF. She lived on the other coast when that happened, he later moved her in, and she's since moved back.


Well I came here for help and advice on how I should go about this. I did write in an earlier post that I thought it might be an idea to put it in a letter. I also acknowledge that right this moment is likely the worst time to attempt this, so recently out of a relationship that may still involve some emotional attachment and contact.

Since he came to me with the news that she was leaving, I've offered support, "if you need/want to talk", "if you need anything"... I've offered monetary help, which he's taken. If you interpret anger or judgment in my posts, yeah I'm angry. I'm angry at the GF who abused him. I'm disappointed in him that he allowed himself to be taken for a ride by this woman. He's a smarter man than that and should have seen what she was after in the first place. He didn't deserve that. My anger is with her, but if I just said none of it was his fault, then I'd be an enabler. He made his choices. As a *friend* and someone who loves him, now that he's out of that, I want to help him get back on his feet.


I hardly think I'm being a lump on a log, but if you have any constructive suggestions besides being hostile toward me, I'm all ears.

I just don't think that springing into action at this point without giving him some time to grieve and make sure I have my own self figured out, would be a good idea. Most of the responses I've had tend to agree with that - but if you disagree, please elaborate.

I'm not being defensive - by any means. I need the hard questions asked - and I'm prepared to answer them, so please keep the thoughts coming. I really do appreciate all points of view.


Believe me, I am thinking about it.. a LOT.

And may God Bless you too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

I think you're taking a good, thought out approach.

I would get a good feel for how he's doing about the GF leaving.

Does he miss her or is he relieved now that it is over?

If you get a sense he is progressing, then I recommend you start flirting with him.

Listen, you're a woman. He obviously found you attractive and it is tough for a man to resist an attractive woman coming onto him. I'm not suggesting you go over the top, but a little flirting and complementing never hurt anyone.

I'll post the 180 for you soon.

You have nothing to lose by flirting with him. Right now you are all business, which he is used to and he won't make any moves unless it's clear to him that you may be receptive to such a thing.

I would certainly gauge where he is in withdrawl, though.

This applies mostly to a WS, but a few things apply in your case. Again, your situation is unique, but it is the spirit of the 180 and your ability to customize it to your situation that makes it great. Here it is:

THE 180:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore!

2. No frequent phone calls

3. Do not point out good points in marriage

4. Do not follow spouse around the house

5. Do not encourage talk about the future

6. Do not ask for help from family members

7. Do not ask for reassurances

8. Do not buy gifts

9. Do not schedule dates together

10. Do not spy on spouse

11. Do not say "I Love You"

12. Act as if you are moving on with your life

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.

15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his whereabouts, ASK NOTHING

17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life with or without your spouse

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what spouse will be missing

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show spouse someone they would want to be around.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)

21. Never lose your cool

22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic

23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger)

24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil)

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly

29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write

30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with yur spouse

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 5% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel

34. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes

Thank you. I want to do things right this time.


I'm trying. I think he has his ups and downs. Since I'm fairly certain they are still in contact, it might be an "artificial" OK since he's still got a connection. Howwever an online chat program can't snuggle up at night. My guess is if she hasn't moved on already (ie had somebody else lined up to move back to), she will soon. She's a very dependent woman so she'll need somebody looking after her soon.


My friend was here chatting with us the other day. She asked him in front of me how he was doing, he said he was OK. She made some joke about when her XH left she was happy to have the bed to herself - he said he's not feeling that, but he did when he first moved out on his own (ie from me) I don't think anything insulting was meant by it... just "matter of fact". He's never derogatory to me in front of others (or in private really - not anymore anyway - there were times in the past...).

I haven't pried. When he wants to tell me stuff, I'm here to listen. Sometimes I ask questions but I always tell him if it's none of my business, to say so and I won't be offended.

He *IS* relieved on a financial basis and he said so last weekend - that he'll be able to regroup financially now that he's not supporting 3 other people (GF and her 2 kids).

As for personally - I'm not sure. He seems to have good days and bad days. I don't push him to talk about it - while I'm "there" for him it's not really appropriate for me to pry into his failed relationship. He did tell me initially when she told him she was moving back home, that it wasn't "because of him" it was because of this state and that she'd rather live in her home state. I don't know if he told me this, or if she told him this to soften the blow - but IMO if two people love each other truly, the geographical part of the country they live in shouldn't matter. I left my home and country with him to follow his dream, and where we live now is *home* for me, even though the marriage ended. Home is where you make it. Clearly she wasn't "home". So to some degree there could be a bit of a lack of "closure" for him - on the record she didn't leave for somebody else (that anyone's aware of) or something like that, so that leaves the "feelings" open and as long as they are in contact he's got a connection there. That's not good for "me" or "us"... but I'm here and she's there so that puts a plus back in my column.

Actually there are plenty of plusses in my column... I'm just too insecure at times to see them. None of the plusses matter if being together is out of the question for him.


That's a frightening venture <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I've never been much of a flirt. We've shared a couple of racy jokes - I stuck my foot in my mouth a couple of weeks ago - the faux pas would mean nothing to anyone outside my business or the hobby we cater to - but I made an observation that could easily have been twisted to something suggestive - and as soon as the words left my mouth I exclaimed, "DON'T GO THERE!" We laughed about it as he was about to "go there"... and after a while I joked that the other meaning could also apply...

I guess that could have been flirting - you'll have to take my word for it without knowing what I said or the context in which it was intended (or could have been twisted to!). Suffice it to say we both found it very funny (and I found it kind of embarrassing!)


Well what I looked like at 17 when we met, and what I look like now about to turn 40 are totally different. I'm not a dog, but I'm not a trophy either. However, his GF was no beauty queen either. She was slimmer, better endowed, but looked 10 years older than she was. I know looks aren't everything - but men are also visual creatures. I have had my hair cut this past week (he didn't mention noticing but others did) and I am clean and neat. I'm not slim - but I'm 45 or so lbs lighter than at my heaviest - and he loved me through that too...I'm not very good at feeling like a good competitor in the looks department. Hopefully if he gets to thinking, "good looks" isn't all he's going to seek. He's more profound than that.


Good. You've piqued my interest with that. I want to show him I'm interested but like I said - I don't want to blow it. Gawd I sound so "high school!"


I suppose you're right. When he was involved, I kept my interactions with him to business or the kids because his GF was insecure enough. I really didn't want to interfere - that wouldn't have been right. I still had those same feelings for him but I wasn't trying to derail his life. I don't want to derail it now either - if anything I'd like to see if our lives can be on track together somehow.

Do you think if I find ways to make subtle hints, I'll see some response, positive or negative? In the first days after he told me about the bomb being dropped, I did send him personal notes with any work-related stuff... such as telling him I'm here for him and he is not alone. I wanted to reach out - but not force myself in. It's a fine line so it seems.


Any pointers? Things to look for that are red flags? I know a lot of this stuff runs on intuition - but my intuition signals are clouded by my own thoughts and feelings at the moment.

On one hand she's only been gone a week. On the other hand, she was only "back" from 6 weeks away for 3 days when she dropped the bomb, and she stayed for 2 more weeks before she actually left. She missed Christmas and her birthday with him. But the fact remains, she has only been moved out for a week and a couple of days.

I'm eager to see how tonight goes. He'll either be right into it with all of us, having fun, or he might be withdrawn and sullen. Hard to say but I'll likely post again tonight after I get home.

JinGA