Orchid - more valid points - thanks! This is the kind of discussion I need right now.

For clarity - my kids and I discuss just about *everything*. DS is just like me, and he's very easy to communicate with concerning anything and everything that may be on his mind.

DD is a bit different - she's more like her father in that she *can* hold things in a bit. However, being aware of that, and having learned how to gently coax things out at times when it's necessary, has worked well.

Still - I have a very good relationship with my kids. I'm not their best friend, I'm their MOTHER. However, I'm also their confidante. They know that they can talk to me about anything, any time - that's just the way it is, always has been and always will be. I have awesome children if I do say so myself - and yep I'll toot my horn for a bit of credit there. They also know if they are peeved at me, they can come to me and talk about it without fear of repercussion. I listen and learn, and we talk things through.

Both children have been angry at their father at various times, both after his GF and kid(s) moved in (her kids came one at a time - she has 2 that live with her and possibly a third - all different daddies...)

A close female friend of mine went through similar issues with her children when she and her H split, and she suggested to me to ask each child to write a letter to their father. My kids' ire happened at different times, DS was first. I asked him to write the letter, he gave it to me and asked me to read it, then give it to his father (I kept a copy).

It was short, but well-written and came right to the point. XH was a bit peeved off at me when he read it, but I told him this was not from me, it was from DS and he'd do them both well to read it and consider it, for if he didn't agree with it, that was one thing, but that was how DS was feeling at the time, and he needed to be mindful of that. He spent some one-on-one time with DS and the issues subsided.

DD wrote a letter too, at a later date - she gave it to me to read, but asked not to give it to her father. The letter had absolutely nothing to do with what was going on. Later, in her room, I found another letter with some *real* issues in it. I read it, but didn't let on that I had - and no I didn't pass it on, but I did discuss my concerns with XH. I didn't break her confidence as such - her letter basically confirmed what I'd suspected, so on that assumption I asked XH to initiate some dialog and spend some one-on-one, which he did.

To his credit, XH is a good father. He's a good man. He's made some incredibly illogical choices these last few years, and dare I say, some pretty stupid things (IMHO of course) but he loves his kids and he will do what he can to keep things right with them.

As for me shielding them - I'm shielding them from any talk I have about reconciliation at this point, because right now it's just what I know *I* would like to do and I have no idea what's in his heart, or if he's even in a place where he can decide clearly - that's why I need to be patient.

As for today - I took your advice. I made no mention of last night, and he didn't ask - he was in and out most of the day so we didn't talk much - but he did bring up a hockey game that was played last night, and I told him that "when we got home" we watched the 3rd period, and he asked me some questions about that, as he'd heard "our" team won but he didn't see the game. Other than that we didn't have time to chat much - it was busy. I did get a phone call (from my mom) and he didn't know who I was talking to but he could surmise it was personal - and while I was jotting down a couple of phone numbers she gave me (she's traveling this week), I *DID* catch him trying to sneak a peek at what those numbers were <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> He'd have recognized the area codes too - not far from his own hometown. Not sure if he saw the numbers or not but I tried to conceal them without being obvious - to make him either know I was aware he was peeking - or so as not to let him know what the numbers were <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I never stated that I'd been talking to my mother, but a bit later I shared some news my mom had emailed me the day before (and I stated she'd emailed yesterday) about the girlfriend of our former co-worker (we've worked together about half of the years we've known each other)who had passed away suddenly in December.

So he doesn't know for sure who I was talking to <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I put the phone numbers in my purse. Let him wonder!

He left promptly at closing time - always does. I'm left with our weekend helper to close up and such.

I won't likely see him or hear from him tomorrow as the biz is closed on Mondays. We'll see if he comes around on Tuesday evening.

JinGA

Just a brief update. Nothing new really. DS called his father to pick him up after an after-school activity tonight (I will be at work). I haven't had contact since Sunday. He may stop by our business tonight, he might not. We'll see. He seems to have been a bit stand-offish lately. Trying not to be too discouraged about that, if the reality is setting in for him that it's over with the GF he may not be feeling too social. He's got to grieve that and work through it. Until he does,he won't be ready for anything else anyway.

During these times I start playing the self-doubt game... why am I trying this? Why do I still love him and all that stuff. Part of it is impatience, part of it is old damaged self-esteem on my part. But I'm still a work in progress, right?

The GOOD thing is, I *have* learned that when I catch myself heading for a pity party, I have figured out how to turn it around with positive self-talk, and prayer. Big step there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I spent a lot of time in years past, with the "poor me's". No more. Takes some work, but that flaw IS fixable.

When I find myself thinking, "Why would he ever want to come back to me?" I change that around to, "Why would he NOT want to come back to me?"

Then I reinforce that with positive facts. Positive self-talk to counteract that old negative self-talk. We *are* self-fulfilling prophecies, right? I think, therefore I am. Well I AM growing and moving forward. I AM working on me.

I was a good wife to him. Perfect? Hardly - but we had many good years together, we built a family, a home and a business together. We were a good team. No - we were a GREAT team. (Until it all fell apart). I've acknowledged my faults and failures, and am working on those. That's a positive, not a negative.

I'm a good person. I'm honest, loyal, I love completely and deeply. I have good friends, family, people around me who care about me - if I wasn't a good person, I wouldn't have that. I care deeply for my friends,and family and I'm as good a listener as I am a talker.

I'm a hard worker. When I throw myself into something, I see it through. I've overcome some tough obstacles and flown by the seat of my pants at times, but I always seem to land on my feet.

I'm a good Mom. I love my kids and respect them, and they love and respect me. My kids are a testament to that.

I could go on tooting my own horn, but you get the idea. Replace negative thinking with positive thinking. And NEVER let them see you sweat. Even when I'm crying inside, I try to put on a smile and positive attitude, I might have a private cry at some point, then shake it off and put that smile back on.

I guess my biggest fear right now is that he's going to start looking for another GF before I take my chance and let him know how I really feel. If he gets tied up with somebody else and has the warm fuzzies again, I won't stand a chance - because that's what happened before when I tried to reconcile. Of course we know how that turned out... but the fact that he chose another over working his way back to his rightful place in our family is a huge ego-buster.

And that's ridiculous too. IF that happens again and IF I lose out again - then I should just smarten up and realize that he's not about reconciliation and repairing his family,then that isn't what he wants out of life after all and I should just accept that I feel how I feel for him and just learn to live with it. We can only beat our heads against the wall so many times, right?

I need to cut out the "what if" stuff. Back to that positive self-talk. I just felt a need to express what's going on with me, because I'm sure others here can relate to it. If you can, some feedback would be appreciated - how do you change so that those old doubts never come back? Or do they?

I guess I'm just frustrated. Unsure what happens "next". I'm a planner by nature and I'm in unfamiliar territory.

When I get into this kind of funk, prayer helps a lot too. I pray for guidance from God. He has a plan for me, and I pray for clarity that He will show me the way. There's a lesson in everything and I pray for the wisdom to learn what He is teaching me. He has blessed me with many wonderful people in my life, and other things that have helped me along life's journey. He won't let me down.

Sometimes it's just hard to let go and let God.

JinGA

It sounds like you have a pretty decent "reality" ....my advice...is that you need to really just let go....when I finally let go of there ever being any hope for us my life changed....and when she finally saw that I was ok....with my reality...she changed.....

I can't offer you any advice....my story tells it all...everyone is different.... I wish you the best....

Wow. Your story is nothing short of amazing. Congratulations on recovery and remarriage - that's incredible.

Outwardly I am moving on, moving forward. Inwardly I am too - but I have my moments when I'm funky like this morning when I posted. I got out for a while (I start work later this afternoon - this is my morning "off")... I took a friend to her doctor's appointment and on some errands and we went to lunch together. Having a life <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm sure I still spend too much time thinking about it all - that's just how I am - but I'm working on it. In fact when I'm done this I WILL go get some more housework done before I head to work....distraction is the name of the game sometimes isn't it?

Thank you for sharing your story. I don't know if one day I'll have a "recovery" story, or a "survival" story - but I will have one or the other.

Personal growth is the best thing I can keep doing while I try to unravel all the other stuff.

JinGA

Well I wrote the letter yesterday. If anybody wants to critique it, drop me a PM and I'll share it but I don't think I should post it here.

It's short, and to the point. I don't mention past events or specifics, I simply tell him how I feel, and that I have no expectations of a reply. I ask for forgiveness, and tell him that I've forgiven him. While I don't put pressure for an expectation, I do let him know the door is open *IF* he wishes to talk.

That places the ball in his court. He can ignore it, he can do something about it - but I said what I felt I needed to say and leaving it at that.

I won't give him this letter yet. I'm not sure when the right time will be, I'm going to run with my intuition on that.

If nothing else, it's good therapy for me to tell him how I feel, without any strings attached. What he does with it at that point is up to him. If any reconciliation or recovery is in the cards, he has to be an equal and willing partner in that - and that's the variable I cannot control or anticipate.

He did stop by the business for about an hour last night, to attend to a few things. Most of our chat was business - friendly, but business. I almost wanted to ask him how his day was, but I chickened out. Perhaps if he stops in tonight I will.

I don't know why I'm so afraid to show him that I'm interested in more than just business. I mean I do show him, but not quite so directly, and maybe I should be a bit more "personal" and direct. What do you think?

I did thank him for stopping in. I *do* appreciate that he does.

I feel like I'm in limbo - and it's of my own creation...how do I make the next, gentle move, out of limbo?

JinGA

Hopefully I'm not talking to myself now - I need some input here... big time...(please!!!)

He came by the shop last night for about half an hour, we shared a couple of funny stories, he fixed a couple of things and left.

Tonight - he picked up DD after school and stopped in - only for about 15 minutes at the shop. Checked a couple of things and as he was leaving (so soon) I said something about it just being a short drive-by and he said he had to go.

Here's the kicker (and it's messing with my head now...)

He opened the door to leave and said, "Bye, I love you, bye" in the same mumbling sort of way we used to say, years ago. Then he shook his head, didn't turn back, called out, "Sorry! Sorry!" shook his head a couple more times as if to ask himself why the ****** he just said that to ME... then he got in his car. As the door closed I called out, "I don't mind..." I don't know if he heard me or not.. but he shook it off and drove away, as I looked on he never looked back toward me.

He hasn't made a "slip" like that in nearly 3 years. Shortly after we separated he called me, "Dear" once and apologized.

So now I'm sitting here wondering - was that a Freudian slip? Should I read anything into it?

He said it the way *we* used to say it, and I'm sure he says it that way to the kids too (I may find a roundabout way to ask the kids this...). I have no idea if he carried that little pet habit over with his GF... and he might well have been thinking of her or the kids or whatever - but that's a BIG "slip".

I don't know if the "Sorry" was in case he offended me (which he did NOT)... or sorry as in he didn't mean it. Heck even if he'd meant it as a friend, there's no shame in ever telling somebody you love them.

I've been doing some intense praying for guidance. I'm Catholic - so if any of you reading are Catholic, you will likely know that St. Teresa's symbol of acknowledgement is roses. I've been asking St. Teresa for intercession and guidance - and honestly sometimes I need a neon sign to understand what God wants of me. I've been praying a Novena and asking for guidance - well not 10 minutes after he left, I got an email forward "Flowers for You" with a bouquet of roses in it, quite unexpectedly from another friend of mine whom I haven't seen but once in the last few weeks, and she doesn't know where my head/heart is at in regards to XH.

*Should* I read anything into that statement, or am I being silly? Close to 3 years is a long time for a habit to have been broken, to resurface now.

Wonder if he heard me say, "I don't mind"?

Shortly after he left his brother called me, he'll be in town this weekend. Said he'd been trying to reach XH (who forgot his cell phone today) - I told him he should be at home unless he has a hot date - his brother laughed his head off *g*... said he'd just tried to call him. So I called XH a few minutes later to ask him if his brother had managed to reach him. He said yes, and the conversation ended there ... no mention by either of us of the "slip".

Argh... I want to think that the statement and the email with the roses is a sign of good things happening - but I'm afraid to read too much into it.

I'm continuing to play it cool - unless somebody else has some words of wisdom.

I'm worse than a high school kid...


:::Help!!:::

JinGA

JinGa,

That could have been a slip or a test. I think it was a test.

Later when you can handle the request, ask him if he recalled that comment and did he have a senior moment when he said it to you vs the OW?

Mine did that to me a few times and when I got savy enough I asked him if he realized he was talking to me vs the OW? LOL!!! He said he knew he was talking to me. LOL!! Mine happened over the phone. Then I told him it wasn't nice for him to speak with a forked tongue. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> He apologized.

The reason I brought it up to him was that I did not want t/b misled and needed him to know it. I informed him that was playing with my emotions and since he and OW had labeled me as a B-queen, I was going to live up to that title. LOL!!! (kidding of course but they didn't have to know it - LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> ).

L.

The more I think about it the more I think it was just a slip and nothing more. A *big* slip... but a slip notwithstanding.

There was a delay of a couple of seconds before he realized what he'd said... then he just called back, "Sorry! Sorry!" and kept walking. The way he shook his head was as if to ask himself where that came from. As if to say, "Oh gawd, I didn't want to say THAT!"

Why be sorry unless he said something he didn't really mean?

I don't know if he heard me say, "I don't mind!"... probably something stupid to say but it just kind of flew out of my mouth after the surprise of hearing/realizing what he'd said. Maybe I blew that too - but it was the only thing I could think of to say to *try* to put him at ease and maybe let him know something more. He may not have heard me in his own shock.

I don't know if he ever said it that way to his GF - he does say it that way to the kids (I asked) but they didn't say they'd ever heard him say it to her that way. Maybe he was just thinking of the kids...

When he said it, he wasn't even looking at me - he was walking out the door. So the "sorry" wasn't solicited, he didn't even see the surprised look on my face, let alone my having a chance to say anything. The door was 3/4 closed when I called out. At that point he couldn't get out of there fast enough.

Part of me wants to ask what that was all about, but if it just turns out to embarrass us both, it might do more harm than good to bring it up again. Maybe I just don't want to know the truthful answer if I asked him. I really don't want to hear that it was a mistake and he didn't mean it - I'd be crushed.

Something tells me that won't happen again. He'll be more on his guard going forward.

Maybe I'm just grasping at straws. One day I think things are great and just *maybe* there's hope for him to come home some day. Then at other times I think I'm being foolish to think that he'd rise to the occasion and do the right thing.

He *has* made changes. But there were some really crappy things he did that led to the downfall of the M in the first place, and I'm not so naive to forget all about them - and I'm scared to find out that maybe not everything has changed. Unfortunately the only way to find out if those things have changed, would be to be involved with him again.

That's why I'm asking for help and guidance, from here, and from God. If it's the real deal - if he really has changed to the point where the bad behaviors that were deal-breakers and love-busters are gone, then it will work if he wants it to. If he hasn't, it won't and I'm opening myself up to more hurt.

Of course at this point, I still don't even know if it's even a possibility from his viewpoint. In his mind it could be well past over.

Before the "slip" we laughed like mad when he told me about his meeting DD's first BF last night.

It's hard when we can talk and laugh together so easily. We're somewhat close again - but still *so* far apart.

I never figured any of this would be easy - but it's a lot harder than it should be - or at least I'm making it such.

DS said he's going out somewhere tonight. Most unusual for him - he goes to work and goes home. I wondered if he had a date but that's doubtful. More than likely a social gathering from work or something. My curiosity is piqued, but unless he tells me about it, I won't know what he's up to.

He doesn't even realize it but he's doing a pretty darned good Plan A with a 180 on me.

JinGA

Well I ended up sending him a brief email yesterday concerning the kids and a business issue. Long and short of it, in our exchange I made mention that he left in such a hurry he forgot his sunglasses. I punctuated it with a <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />~~ and signed my name with a <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> after it so it kind of opened the door if he wanted to say something about what he'd said, but didn't corner him to.

He didn't address that at all. Oh well at the very least he can rest assured I wasn't offended. I'm not going to "go there" again - at least not for a good while.

He did come by the shop - stayed about 45 minutes - unusual for a Friday, as he usually doesn't stop in at all. He wanted to pick up his sunglasses but he did a few other things too.

First thing he did when he arrived was tell me about his day at work. He hasn't done that in a long time. I put down what I was doing and listened attentively. He actually left work a bit early so he had time to stop in.

He made a point to mention that next he was going home to shower because he was going out. I was good and didn't bite - I didn't ask where he was going - nothing - didn't even really acknowledge that he'd said it. He'd told me by email he was going out - initially he wasn't sure if his plans were canceled or not - but later he confirmed he was going, the he reiterated it. Nope - not even going to ask how it went <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If he'd wanted me to know, he'd have told me - and he may just tell me about it today - and if he does I'll listen, and if he doesn't, I won't ask.

I did find out from DD that apparently GF is still on the radar. When he picked her up at school on Thursday and met DD's boyfriend, once he did his funny protective father routine, he told DD he couldn't wait to tell his GF about it. (I'm sure DD appreciated hearing that - NOT! That's OK she told me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Well, ironically, I was the first person he told about it. DD called to say she was home, and a minute later XH was telling me about it in person (I live 1/2 mile from my place of business). He wouldn't have even had time to call GF between dropping DD off and arriving at our business, let alone tell the story.

So he went out last night - good for him. I guess it was likely a group from work. Not a date if he's still got GF going by phone or whatever. He's pretty much a homebody - it will do him good to get out and be social, he hasn't done much of that since GF came along (she had some aversion to crowds of people or something).

So my plan is to keep on doing more of the same. Plan A with a 180, which really seems to be going well. It's a good way to pass the time while GF remains on the radar. It's not quite a month since she moved, I expect it will burn out sooner or later. Besides if I'm filling his EN (talking about his day, sharing funny stories), eventually he won't have a need for her anymore - because talk is all they can do together anymore. I feel that we're more relaxed with each other, a bit closer - at the very least I've got my friend back - something I lost when GF was in the picture, she couldn't stand that XH and I were on good terms.

Honestly the way he's been behaving with me lately, I could swear he's doing Plan A with a 180 on me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> He's not quite there in filling my EN *yet* but he's not doing a bad job so far, and I'm not asking extra of him.

I don't know if this could take us to reconciliation and recovery, but it's going well so far. I think it will still be a while before anything moves to the next level, but I'm going to keep building up love bank deposits and we'll see what happens.

JinGA

Hi JinGA,

His saying he loves you may have been a slip from your depositing love units in his love bank?

Go slowly so you can feel safe in what you say. If you feel happy around him, tell him you're happy to see him that day. If you missed him a day he wasn't in, sure, say that too. If he says he loves you, and you love him, tell him. There is nothing wrong with loving someone, you love your kids for instance. Saying honest feelings for someone you were married to probably won't do any damage because you have years of being with him and can back out of it if he takes it wrong. You could do much the same and say "sorry, I slipped up in saying that" if he's not interested. And if he's not interested, don't take it wrong, he might later. There is no perfect relationship, both of you know that. Worrying about what is said "wrong" is water under the bridge. Much worse things have probably been said.

Both of you still working together is probably driving him and the GF apart. Him mentioning going out to you, might have been a weak offer to see if you're interested in going with him, or might have been simple conversation. Ask him how his time went that day, what was it like, was it fun, maybe you want to do some things like that, etc...

A good plan of action might be to keep talking with him, keep up the happy conversations, no anger or demands, and keep building up the love units. Try to be a little more open about how you feel, it won't hurt anything as long as you still feel safe in saying things that don't commit you one way or the other. You won't want him to be forced to make any decisions, let him decide over time as you keep adding love deposits, if that's what you want to do.

If you know he has spare time, and you do too, ask him if he wants to go to lunch, or dinner. Business dinners happen all the time, and you're then flexible to progress in whatever direction you want to go. Don't bring up past things, and move off those topics if they come up. Whatever you do, move slowly. Love units take time to build up, and you never really know where you're at, until you're there.

God bless,
CS

Might have been, might not. Hard to say. Just maybe his own subconscious is working on him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I let that go and I won't bring it up again.


I always greet him happily - particularly if I wasn't expecting to see him. I haven't said I missed him yet but I will keep that in my bag of tricks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Well I think we're a while away from him intending to say it. When he said it the other night, I nearly said I loved him too but before I could say that, that's when the "Sorry!" came out. And you're right, there's absolutely no shame in telling somebody you love them - I tell friends and family that all the time. In fact the world would be a lot better place if more people told each other that.. but I digress. I know what you're saying - but I do think that's a while from now.


Ironic, isn't it? After being with him for over half my life, you'd think it would be easy to say *anything*. I don't want to scare him away so I'm picking my words carefully. Regular conversation comes easily, even old inside jokes and expressions. All that just flows. But I don't dare make it too intimate just yet. One wrong move and he'll duck behind the GF who is and will remain, 2000 miles away.



Amen to that.


Well the GF decided to leave him and move back to her home state. He was back working with me before she left, but it was *very* limited, only on weekends - arriving late and leaving early. He came back to the family business in mid January. In mid-February, GF left to 'visit' her home state for 6 weeks (and left both her kids with XH). She returned the end of March, and 3 days later she announced she and her kids were moving back to CA. He didn't spend any extra time in the business while he was minding her kids, but once she left, he started coming in during the week. He doesn't work til closing time like he used to, sometimes it's only 30 minutes or an hour, but I'm grateful for *any* extra help.



No, it wasn't an offer. I didn't ask where he was going, and I didn't ask how it went. Given that he arrived at work over 40 minutes early today (he arrived before I did!) I guess he wasn't out too late either!


I know plan A is not an exact science, but I thought a part of it wasn't asking where he went or whom he was with? I figured if he wanted to share, he would. He didn't offer any info and I didn't ask. I did tell him I was pleasantly surprised to see him at work early though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Yep, that's exactly what I'm doing. And honestly, he seems to be doing the same thing. As I've mentioned, it almost seems like he's doing a Plan A with a 180 on me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He's done a few little things that impressed me (and I've thanked him and taken notice of "extras".) If he's not deliberately trying to impress me, he'd knock my socks off if he was!


That's out of my comfort zone as of yet. The lingering presence of the GF and the short time frame since she left are what make me squirm. If she had cut off all contact, or had been gone longer, I'd be more comfy. Just got to give that part some time. Meanwhile just building up the love units, and hopefully paving the way for when the time *is* right. After all, if a couple or few months pass, she drops out of sight, he's already allowing me to fill some of his ENs, and I'm happy to do so - as well he's filling some of my ENs... it might just be a logical progression if he finds himself coming to me even more for those things. Sort of "easing" back into it in a subliminal sort of way. Once I feel that "safety" then I may take it up a step.


Exactly. No manipulations. If this is meant to happen, he's got to come to this conclusion on his own. All I can do is make it an attractive option to him.


Well I've already extended 2 invitations that were declined. I mentioned those in prior posts - including last Saturday night. I'm going to cool it on invitations for now. As far as we go now is if either one of us is buying coffee to have at work, we'll buy for each other (he's done this all along, and he buys more often than not). I'm going to wait a while before I extend another invite - don't want to look like I'm forcing things. We did spend DS b'day together and we had a great time. Let him ponder that for a while. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It's an emotional roller coaster that's for sure. Sometimes I think it's bound to come together sooner or later, other times I think I'm grasping at straws.

However, I've noticed that he's doing more, being there more, we're talking more. It's baby steps, and he's depositing love units too without even realizing it. I'm working at making as many deposits as I can too. Time will tell... but if things keep going well, it may happen.

The hardest thing for me now is waiting. I know what I want, and I know I've learned from past mistakes. Unfortunately he's not over the GF, he's not even finished communicating with the GF (although I fail to see what the point is in continuing a "relationship" with somebody who opted to move 2000 miles away...) I guess that much will have to run its course.

My goal is to just keep being his best friend. Even through all of the junk we've been through, I still think I've been the best friend he's ever had - even in bad times. I'll just keep on doing that and hopefully he'll realize it in time, and then perhaps...

I can only control what *I* do...

Thanks for the input - it *really* helps keep things in perspective.

And God bless you too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

Well Mother's Day was nice for me. Had a nice morning with my kids, breakfast in bed, we went bowling and I called my Mom before I went to work.

I was *hoping* that XH would grant me the day off to spend with the kids, but no such luck. In fact he never even took them shopping for a card or anything. I didn't ask for the day off - he might have given it to me if I had, but it would have been a nice gesture. He's never been good at Hallmark Holidays.

He wished me a happy Mother's Day when we got to work - funny we arrived at *exactly* the same time (about 20 minutes early). I was turning left into the parking lot, he was turning right and waved me in.

Typical work day - light conversation - lots of hockey talk (our home team is in the playoffs), between ourselves and clients who are also hockey fans.

His GF called him at least once - he had several phone calls, only one I heard him answer, "Hi Babe" ... I don't eavesdrop - but he answered that one right in front of me. At that point I found something to do which would cause me to walk away - I don't need or want to listen to those conversations.

I don't understand why this woman would leave him, move 2000 miles "back home" but still keep hanging on to him. I could almost understand if she left and he kept calling her to hang on/change her mind etc. And I'm sure he calls her too - but he doesn't do it during work hours or around me. She must be receiving some benefit from the relationship I guess. So must he, otherwise what's the point? She did ask him to move out with her before she left, but he declined. He told me about it and said he won't move away from his kids - and I admire him for that. Never mind that we own a business together (although we are looking to sell that)... he'd have been foolish to give up his good job here and move across the country and away from his kids, his business. He gets credit for that much. Fog is thick, but not *that* thick.

And as for the Mother's Day thing - while I'll admit I'm a bit disappointed that he didn't even help the kids get me a card (my friend took my kids shopping one day last week, so I did get a card and a small gift from my children) - rather than consider this a "love buster" I'm just going to think of it as a love bank deposit that he opted not to make.

Last year I didn't get anything from the kids via him, and on Father's Day he was on a 2 week road trip with the GF and her kids and he didn't even answer his cell phone on Father's Day when our kids tried to call him.

I won't see him today as the business is closed. Normally it's a sort of "day off" for me but I have a lot of things I need to do so I'll be heading off to work shortly.

I think I made a few more love bank deposits over the weekend. Just going to keep on doing that going forward.

JinGA

JinGa,

I don't get my ex anything anymore for Mother's Day. I didn't have my kids get anything for her either. If they get older and express a desire to get her something, then that's a different story. I may even ask them when they're older if they want a ride or to go buy a card.

They're both in withdrawl and denial. It is inevitable, but it won't come on your timeline.

Personally, I would push a little more and hint more if I were you.

What do you have to lose?

unusual MB advice this time

because you are divorced

start dating right beneath her nose

nothing serious
no sex
but go out on dates

this is my opinion, of course
but seeing you dating may be the "Mother's Day" gift she needs to receive

Only one major snag with that. He *did* cheat on me in the past - but I truly believe he learned his lesson there and is not likely to repeat that behavior.

When I tried to initiate reconciliation before the D, but after he started a R with her, he hugged me twice (very platonically) and pulled away when I tried to kiss him. That was about 18 months ago.

Although the M ended, it wasn't a direct result of the infidelity. In fact it was other factors, and while I was on my guard, I had no reason to believe he ever cheated again in the years from D-Day (and the EA was over long before then, I just stumbled on computer evidence well after the fact...). And believe me, I was watchful for signs of infidelity after that. No, I don't think he'd cheat again, and I wouldn't want to create that kind of situation, with me being the OP. No thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Even though he didn't marry her, they did live together - it's as similar enough to constitute cheating in my book if he's still telling her he loves her, it wouldn't be right to date me. I'd never ask that of him. In fact I respect that he's not accepting my invitations if he's still involved with her.

Having said that, I think the reason why he's declined my invitations is *because* he's still "involved" with her. I certainly wouldn't encourage him to cheat on her - after all if he cheats with me, he'd cheat ON me - and that wouldn't be right.

I can keep being patient. It *will* burn out eventually - it must, because you can't plan your life around something that's long-distance. There's no life to build if there's 2000 miles in between. She may be holding out hope he'll move out there (and I don't see that happening - from complaints I did hear from him and my kids, it wasn't all that to begin with...). Eventually one or both will grow tired of it and move on.

She already knows we went as a family to DS b'day (she called twice and texted once during that!) She always felt threatened by me even though I've never once interfered. Perhaps I should have before the D was final, but that would not likely have resulted in reconciliation at that time - it would have made for a ton of hostility (read: You ruined my life!). I did what I had to do at the time to protect my kids and my interests and the business he and I own together. Not the outcome I wanted but it was the only viable option at that time.

Honestly at that point and even now I think that under the circumstances it may actually be better that he's had a go at the greener grass - it wasn't so green, except where it grows over the septic tank. Sometimes I think that in the long run that experience he's just coming out of may make life with the kids and me look pretty darned good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He just hasn't had that epiphany yet. I do think that sooner or later he will though.

I don't think she realizes he stops in at our business most nights because he doesn't stay long. If they have a designated "call time" he has to be home for it I guess. Anybody could tell on the phone if he was at our shop because there's a lot of noise in the background. Anyway if we started dating under her nose, she wouldn't be aware of it unless he told her - or unless I told her, and I have no desire to communicate with her. The last time she communicated with me she sent me a hateful email (her insecurity was showing) where she was butting in to a discussion XH and I were having about a situation with OUR daughter. She had no business in it, but he shared our communication with her and she threw in her 2 cents. I ignored the email and did not dignify it with a response, but at the time I asked XH to please ask her to kindly refrain from harassing me. She never did that again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I don't think he'll accept any of my invitations until she's completely out of the picture. And honestly I'm OK with that because I don't want to be the OP or second fiddle.

Honestly when she left I expected him to find reasons to come around the house again like he did during our separation. He'd hang out here, eat here, before he had a washer and dryer he'd do his laundry here... granted she's only been gone not quite a month (will be one month this week). The denial hasn't passed for him yet. I just can't figure why she's hanging on to him since she decided to leave... I think I'll know if/when that happens because he may revert back to those old habits. By coming around the business more he's already "easing" back into that situation.

I allowed him to hang with us in the past because I'd hoped it would lead to reconciliation - but at the time it just led to cake-eating so I put a stop to it. I think things could be different this time if it gets to that point again.

This weekend I am going out of town to a social event that pertains to the business. I'll be away overnight and he'll work the biz alone. I'm going alone. He'll have the kids and I arranged for a friend to tend my pets.

Initially after she left I thought of inviting him to stay at my house with the kids/pets this Saturday while I'm gone, but changed my mind - again - since she's not out of his system yet... I'd thought that maybe spending a night in OUR home might stir some feelings but I'll wait and do that another time, when he's more likely to be receptive to it.

So if you, BD and Pepperband, seem to think I should press forward a bit - what would you suggest?

I have written my letter to him telling him how I feel and bluntly re-opening the door to talk of reconciliation, but I don't think it's the right time to drop that bomb.

Since he declined my last 2 invitations, I didn't extend another this past weekend.

Now... HERE is a tricky situation that's also coming this week.

This week I turn 40.(Ugh!)... Anyway, my friend started conspiring with my kids to surprise me with something. She mentioned that I was invited to her place on my birthday for dinner. I didn't want to make a fuss and I respectfully declined - that's when she told me I MUST come because she and my kids are having a "surprise" for me.

She also told me that DD was going to invite XH. Now, I don't know if he's going to come, but DD arranged for XH to cover for me at the biz that night (that's a "surprise" too...shhhh!). Anyway, sorry to be rambling here... I just wish that my friend had NOT told me that XH was invited - because I'm fairly certain he'll decline (if he works the store til closing he could come afterward but I doubt at this point he will).

If I didn't know he was invited, I'd be none the wiser if he declined. If he did show up it would have been a great surprise.

I know that DD arranged for him to cover - that's confirmed but my friend didn't ask my DD if she'd invited her father for cake or whatnot - so even my friend doesn't know at this point and I'm not going to ask DD and spoil her surprise for me.

I have NO expectation that he'll show up. If he does I'll be most impressed - but he doesn't know my friends very well (our daughters are best friends) - he's met them a few times but that's it. So he just might not even feel comfortable in that situation, let alone at a party for me.

Ugh I hate birthdays...

Anyway, sorry to go on so long - please keep the feedback/suggestions coming - I need all the help I can get <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

Well, I am not a believer that him being with you is somehow cheating. In my book, you had kids with him and he has no ring on his finger, so he's fair game.

If men held back every time a woman had a boyfriend....

Heck, I say just sit him down one day and tell him how you feel. Let it out.

Yes, you expose yourself emotionally, but you get it out there.

If he bites great. If he doesn't, well better that than for you to keep stringing along wondering if you're going to get him back.

Interesting perspective...

And yeah I don't want to wait around forever, but at the same time I think that the timing has to be chosen somewhat.

If he's still "madly in love" with her, he's going to turn me down no matter what - he's still in the fog and apparently it's pretty thick.

So yes, I'm going to have to go for it sooner or later - I just think that I'm more likely to be shot down right *now* than if I wait until the fog begins to lift and he comes to the realization that he's in a dead-end situation with her.

It's a whole different dynamic than when she was living with him.

Let's not forget too - that I tried to reconcile with him before the D but after he started the warm fuzzies with her - he wouldn't commit either way. Rather than either turn me down, or commit to reconciliation, he said he'd entertain reconciliation with me, but he wasn't willing to walk away from her quite then. That's when I went ahead with the D, because in my mind he made his choice.

Perhaps I was hasty. Perhaps I should have fought harder - but the fact is I didn't. Everything happens for a reason - and I think we've both learned some hard lessons in the last year and a half. Well I know I have... he's still got a bit to go if he's still carrying on with her at a distance...

I wonder sometimes if he just thinks he did too much damage for me to ever want him back - and he's too scared to try. But then again she's still in the picture so he may not have even pondered that much yet.

Then sometimes I'm afraid to let it out because I AM afraid of being devastated all over again if he turns me down.

I think I can improve my odds a bit if wait a bit longer til this thing fizzles a bit more. He may not yet see enough through the fog, the appeal of reuniting his family, and all the good things we had, and still have together.

I do think that these days, he's enjoying what time he spends with me - DD told me today that GF doesn't like hockey... and XH and I love hockey... that's been a good topic since our team is still in the running for the cup.

From what the kids tell me, there wasn't too much in common between them... so I'm just having fun with the things that he and I DO have in common.

I'm trying to fill his ENs... once I think I've built up a decent number of love units, I'll go for it.

And if he says no, it's HIS loss, right <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I psyche myself out sometimes. There's a lot of good, valid reasons why letting him know that it's still there for me could result in wonderful things.

The ONLY thing that could stop it from happening is if he just does NOT love me anymore. And if that was the case, he'd be either hating my guts, or be barely tolerant of me. That's not the case. So there is *something* still there, I just don't know if he realizes the scope of it yet and I want him to have some time to think about things a bit more before I put it all on the line again.

OK it's hockey time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

Just a quick post this morning as I run out the door. Our hockey team won last night <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

XH's brother is in town, I'm going to pick him up shortly and he's going to spend the day with me on his layover. XH picked him up last night (we have "shared custody"! LOL His Bro is older than both of us!)

Anyway, I was talking on the phone to his brother this morning - I've told him how I'm feeling and he said that I need to sit down with XH and talk it out - I agree, but when I told him that XH and GF are still in touch he was surprised.

He also told me that XH had to make a post-office run last night. It's only circumstantial, and speculation on my part but since he went into the post office with only his wallet, and according to Bro, he was arguing on the phone with somebody when he came out (Bro thought it was with me - it wasn't.) I *think* he may have been sending GF money. He's done it before, before she moved out here, a few months into their online courtship. However, he claimed her kids as dependents on his tax return and it could well be that he was sending her some of his refund, or whatever.

Again - pure speculation on my part, but he usually pays his bills etc., online, so it's weird that he'd go to the post office, and he didn't have any bills or letters or packages etc., to mail when he went in. If he bought a money order and sent it overnight or whatnot - he could get the money order and envelope inside the post office. He's done that before.

*IF* that's the case, it would make perfect sense as to why GF is keeping him on a string - make nice until the "check is in the mail". If it's a one-shot deal, and that was his only "payment" to her, she'll likely fall right off the radar. If not, if the money is ongoing, she'll make nice as long as the cash is flowing.

So I guess we'll see what happens next. Bro agrees that if he's still got the warmies for the GF, now would not be a good time to approach him, but he feels that XH misses being with his kids full-time (that would be the wrong reason to reconcile, but it would be a nice fringe benefit). I told Bro that he's not spending any extra time with his kids yet - but Bro thinks that will come in time. At least Bro is supportive of me, he's known all along that I've wanted XH to come home - he told me that. XH doesn't confide much in anybody so Bro doesn't really have a feel for too much about how XH is feeling now - but we'll see what happens.

XH is a fool if he sent her money <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> He doesn't owe her anything - she lived off his generosity for over a year, and he's had financial troubles that whole year. In fact, this is the first pay period that I can remember, that he didn't receive at least one NSF notice (at my house - he never changed his address with the bank). The bank covered his overdrafts but collected a hefty fee each time.

So we'll see... here's hoping it was a one-shot payment and we'll see how fast GF drops off the map if that was the case.

If I was wrong, I'll still have to bide my time for a little while, but my eyes and ears are open.

JinGA

Positive things to report today. XH stopped in for about an hour, and was going to leave but I needed some help with a major technical issue, so I asked and he stayed for another hour and a half. I thanked him twice for doing so.

Also, since his brother was at my place, we decided to go out to eat, so once again I invited him to join us. I wasn't going to since he's blown me off twice before, but since it was late, and he'd have to fix himself supper at home, I asked him. He did decline - however, instead of blowing me off, he actually did consider it, but he explained that he's been oversleeping and late for work the last couple of days (I saw him at the convenience store near our business at 10:00 AM on Monday - he starts work at 8) so I know this is true... anyway he gave me a legitimate reason why he didn't join us - but we did pick up take-out for him and left it off on our way home.

I didn't feel like he'd rather dine with a leper than me this time... and I appreciate that he was taking responsibility for being late etc., and doing what he had to do to take care of that.

Speaking of responsibility, he told me too, that yesterday he paid off the delinquent credit card that he ran up when he began his courtship with GF - he used it to take a trip to see her, then it ran into arrears (and it still showed up on my credit report - I had to jump through some hoops to get that off MY credit...). Anyway he paid off the account and closed it yesterday. Bravo! He said he didn't want to have a credit card anymore, so he paid it and closed it completely. I'm VERY impressed - he's finally taking some responsibility for his finances (I managed those all through the M, and he's had a lot of trouble with this in the last year or so).

His brother cleaned up his apartment too. XH told me this and said there was a lot of stuff... and trailed off, I said, "Leftovers?" (from the GF/kids) and he had a disgusted look on his face and said, "Yes". DD told me that her uncle told her that if it was on the floor, he threw it in the trash, he didn't care what it was. Good - a good de-junk and purge is good for the soul <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Could it be his fog is finally starting to lift? Personal accountability, taking care of his obligations... and even though he had help - cleaning up his apartment and his act?!

I'm very impressed. In fact I'm quite proud of him because he's finally showing me some indication that he's hitting a new level of maturity. And the best part is, he's not doing it for "me" - he's doing it for HIM - which is the way it should be. But dang - I'm impressed <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

Addendum...

I just sent him a short email asking him if supper was ok and asked him if he slept well. Told him I hoped he got a good sleep and got to work on time.

Might be a bit forward, but just let him know I was thinking of him.

Dipping my toes back into the water *carefully*.

Was this a good move?

JinGA