Mostly I post to help guys deal with issues within themselves dealing with WW and FWW. I try to help guys understand bonding and all that stuff. This isn't because I don't have opinions about male infidelity, it just is that I am like most folks and what hurt me is where my head is at. What I am gonna say here is sorta in that vein and sorta not.


I got this from the Recovery forum. It hit a nerve. For years, I have been saying:

"God and MOM made him, you ain't gonna change him." Matter of fact, this comment was what caught my now wife's eye 8 years ago about this time. She was in the middle of a long and drawn out divorce from a guy who was and remains a rigid personality with no interest in learning or owning his own stuff.

Many Moms give sons unconditional love and unconditional forgiveness no matter what. And the above post extract is the first time I have seen the recognition of negative outcomes from Moms doing exactly that. Huzzah!!!!!!

Hey, dads do the same thing with daughters. Saw that post today too. The entitlement express keeps on rolling.

Male and female social conditioning drives the entitlement bus to the point where "Feelings" are more important than doing the right thing; after all, we will be forgiven, right? And these feelings are very much a part of the whole equation in that a BS can be a total horse's [censored] and they expect forgiveness because THEY were betrayed, right?

And the WS expects forgiveness or at least a fast divorce because THEIR feelings are the most important in the world, right? Doing the right thing becomes the act of following our feelings around like wet puppy dogs instead of acting like grown ups.

And our kids learn the lesson.

Larry

Now listen here, Larry, we just want our kids to "be happy!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I wonder if Jeffry Dahmer's [the serial killer] momma said that too? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Another person that comes to mind with this idea is Scott Peterson (wife and child killer). His parents protected him in all aspects of his life. Bailed him out of many troubles and I believe that he thought this was one more thing his MOM could bail him out of.

BTW: my DH has a very ridged personality. He is not only the only son, but also the baby boy. I like to call it a controlling personality. But no matter I love him and i deal the best I can.

Very insightful post.

DH is only child and was babied quite a bit by mom, as was his dad. So he was babied and saw dad being taken care of the same way and that's what he learned to expect.

Unfortunately for him...I guess...he married someone who is not into the whole waiting on everyone hand and foot thing...Has caused a LOT of problems/conflict.

He does realize this though but those patterns are hard to break once they have been set.

My FOO was entirely dysfunctional in different ways, but it is obvious that what we learn, are taught or see modeled by our parents is what we expect the world to be like. All of us parents really need to make an effort to prepare our children to understand consequences and responsibility.

Interesting comments and thoughts. It brings to mind a situation within my extended family. I grew up with a very tough hard father, whose ONLY goal was to prepare my sisters and I to take care of ourselves. He succeeded and we can and have. However one of my sisters married a man, that was fawned over by his mother, and then protected by his Dad. Whenever this man needed money, he could always "borrow" it from Dad. Dad was always there to help with grand kids college, houses, whatever, relieving this fellow of really ever having to feel the consequences of his actions.

This man's mother died a decade or so ago, and his Father died this year. He is now in a deep deep depression, because truly he never made any decisions without talking to Dad, and Dad had bailed him out of many financial situations. It is getting to the point he is not functional.

I understand grief in losing parents, my W and I have lost our parents...decades ago. But, this fellows parents did him no favors by making him dependent on them. It is sad to see these things and realize that he was never prepared to handle life on his own.

Just thoughts on the role we play as parents. Too bad the instruction books on rearing children really don't address this and when they do, they often get it wrong. It seems the self-esteem movement of the 80's is bearing fruit, but of a very bitter nature. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Oh well! Another social experiment going down the drain.

Intersting thoughts Larry.

JL

I was very dependent on my parents. They established that it was an irrevocable disaster if I didn't get straight As. I lived my life in fear of making one mistake. I was totally dependent on them to make decisions for me.

And then I fell in love. I switched from being completely dependent on my parents to being completely dependent on my husband.

I am teaching my children that they can recover from mistakes and that they need to make choices themselves. I look for opportunities for them to make choices. When our youngest dressed herself for pre-school, I sometimes put a sticker on the back of her outfit: "I dressed myself today!" When our daughter got a D+ in math, she figured out that she needed to have a clean desk so she could find her homework. She's now a straight A student.

My parents did me no good trying to keep me from making mistakes by making decisions for me. In the strongest terms possible, they tried to stop our wedding -- in effect, submitting annulment papers before the wedding. When my husband treated me badly literally hours after the wedding, I couldn't come back to them to admit I had been wrong. I tried to change to get back the man who had dazzled me while we were dating. I lived a lie.

My understanding is that helicopter parents are now in the work environment. My parents were never this bad, but I have read in the Wall Street Journal that they actually come to career open houses for new college graduates. One person I know told me that a parent called Human Resources to complain that her son had not gotten a promotion.

It's a tough day for me today, a day of reflection. Five years ago today, I called the husband of a woman whom my hsuband had told me the year before had propositioned him. I never thought he would have an affair. I was still in a fog of my own, believing that he was too ethical to have an affair.

Cherished

Ok this thread caught my eye. I very much want to know how not to enable my children. I want them to learn the consequenses of their actions. I try and let them see how decions effect others around them. The only thing is how do I know if I am not over mothering/under mothering them? This morning my 6 yo was playing around like she always does instead of getting ready for school and my 8 yo was like mommy why is C taking so long to get ready I said I don't know but I didn't give neither of them the reaction they were looking for so the oldest saw her friends walking to the bus stop and asked them to go with them and I said ok. I love you have a good day. The 6 yo heard me saying this and was like mommy what is C doing and said walking to the bus stop with W and she said can I go I said if you hurry and get dressed you can catch them so she hurried and put on her clothes and left and I didn't even have to fuss and I was happy about this.

Howeve my H and I was having a convo the other day and he said that I need to start making their own decisions and I agreed but now I am having anxiety. I had a dream this morning that I let my kids go on a bus they don't normally use and I left them and then I went back to look for them and they were gone and I went back to look for them and they were gone. Then I got scared and said what was I thinking I should have waited and let them get on the bus before leaving. Then I woke up because it was time to make sure they were getting ready for school. Then when they asked to walk with their friends instead of having me take them like I always do I freaked but I know I can't hold on to them forever so after a while I went to the bus stop to make sure they were there then I left. Would you say this is over mothering? I really want my kids to be able to think for themselves and to know that mistakes are apart of life and we all make them and it is not the end of the world and as long as you learn from them you won't repeat them but I also know the dangers that are in the world and that I can't protect them from them but how much is to much and how much is to little?

I try and do the right thing when they are with me because they go more by what you do then what you say but how do you know if your influence is stronger than peer pressure and the need to be popular and accepted by your peers?

This thread caught my eye, too, for a couple of reason.

Our MC gave husband a book to read called, When Men Marry Their Moms. It's all about MEMs, mother enmeshed men.
It has been an eye opener for FWH. He is finally starting to see the light when it comes to his MOM. She also wants husband "to be happy;" never mind anyone else.

I'm also working on the other end of this. I have 2 sons, 18, and 16. The 18 year old moved out to live with his girlfriend. After several months, he is starting to experience the normal struggles of everyday life. Works 40 hours, goes to school, pays rent, lights, etc. He complains about it. He's always tired. He now wishes he didn't leave home, but felt pressured to do so. And he was. His GF pretty much cried and cried until he agreed to move in the apt with her. But utlimately, it was his decision, and now he has to live with it. But Yikes, I do struggle. I want him to come home. He's too young to be out there, I tell myself. Then I say STOP!!!

Leave him alone. Let him grow up. Let him FEEL the weight of responsibility. It won't kill him. It'll make him stronger.

Part of my problem, I have always been a "rescuer."

After a year and half trying with a certain degree of success in understanding the female dynamic in affairs, as much as any male layman can, I am now thinking about the male part.

This post is one of my first tries at discovery. I believe that mother/son interaction is an important part of understanding males and why they cheat and how they react to being cheated ON.

JustLearning gave me an attaboy. That is gold for me as I have nothing but respect for JustLearning. I hope others will chime in with their take - from the slant of affairs.

Larry

um... maybe you have to talk slow and explain really obvious things to other Texans... but I think the world knows who Mr Dahmer was.

geez.. do you put that after other not-so-infamous people???

Like Mr Manson?
Maybe Mr Oswald?
Possibly Mr Bin Ladin?

Must be the water in the new digs...lol

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

shaddup, you silly okie!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Shouldn't I be patriot[the okie]?

LMAO!

Pat...I'm shaking with laughter over this little tidbit! THANKS! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W [The Southern Belle Living In Yankeeville]

DIG,

I have some advice for you...relax. None of us get this completely right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I will tell you from experience that while you think children take a lot of time and attention when they are the age yours are now, when they get to be teens you will need to focus even more.

We have seen it in our community. Very involved parents while the children are in grade school, and even middle school, but when the children get to HS, the parents stop being as involved. The teenagers of course say "we are grown up, we can handle it.", but the reality is they need more of your presence because the decisions they make at this point tend to carry over into adulthood.

I will tell you that I have three children...no teens any more, thank you, thank you, thank you. The youngest is a soph in college and still finding his way. The middle one is in graduate school working on a PhD. And the older one when to college on a football scholarship, after injuries, girl friends and not knowing what he wanted to do, dropped out after a few years. He went to work found some success and decided he needed a degree in business. He is now back in school in his late 20's and is paying his own way. He is also a 4.00 student now, and views the "young kids" as fresh meat when competing with them for grades. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The point, they do grow up, and if they can avoid serious mistakes they will find their way. But, they do need to learn a few lessons from the school of hard knocks. At the same time, they need their parents to offer guidance on those occasions when it occurs to them that "mom and dad" might have higher than "room temperature" IQ's. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

My proudest moments is when the older one actually asks my advice. It means my IQ has risen to triple digits again after a serious slump in the double digit range. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> And interestingly I can now ask him for advice on things as well. That is sooo much fun.

Back to Larry's thoughts. Yes, Mothers do have a very big influence on boys. They set the tone for our expectations of women for the rest of our lives. Our fathers establish a role model for us. For men or women the roles of mothers and fathers is huge, and finally it is starting to be realized that BOTH parents have a big role to play.

Must go, but this stuff is interesting and it is fun to read everyone's ideas.

God Bless,

JL

Larry,

Your comments are most kind. You have learned a lot and are an asset on this site.

God Bless,

JL

I think that the mother models to her son what his wife should accept.

Cherished

Good lord! Reading this thread is making me nervous. I am, currently, a single momma, and dealing with a DS who misses his daddy so.

As for creating a completely dependent creature out of him, I expect that I will rail against that and try to guide him, instead of leading him. It's tough, when you FEEL so much and have to work on 'tough love'.

My kid is only 4 (soon to be 5), so I don't think I've had enough time to 'ruin' him yet... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

JL


My wife chewed on that one (self esteem movement) until our son failed and failed and failed. Then she finally let me take over. His grades are up and he is rewarded for what he does, not what he says or the fact he breathes.

By the way JL, if you want to chime in on Hard Headed and LostBoy thread over on recovery, feel free. I am in over my head, or so it seems to me.

Larry