I have reached my ultimate frustrations. I truly do not know what more I can do.

My husband of 28 years is once again in “addictive” mode. (IMO) For 22 years (since my daughter was just a baby) things have been always seemed to be on one roller coaster ride after another … with my husband.

In my opinion he is always looking for “escapes”.

When we were married, my H began farming. Farming is what husband’s father did and his father before him. Because my father-in-law did not “think” about the possibility of his son ever going into farming (???), he sold his free and clear farm to developers. Thus, my husband had to go out and finance anything and everything he did …If he wanted to farm While husband’s dad DID help him, it was nothing even close to what other farm families did for their children that wanted to carry on their legacy.

It was very large amounts of $$ that had to be financed. I fill you in on this, ‘cause my husband has made arguments/statements to me WAY TOO MANY times over the years that all other farming families in the community (it used to be a large farming community, but has since grown/changed) “thought” about their children and significantly helped those sons/daughters continue on this life style. Not so with my husband and his father. My husband constantly feels a total betrayal from his parents. His dad passed away approximately 10 years ago. My husband has hung on to his anger/feelings of betrayal towards his parents. He says that when his mother passes, he will get nothing (because of the past farming failure and monies his parents put out to help him already). But .. in essence, he “helped” his parents keep the lands they purchased jointly intact and thus when the need arose to be sold, they profited greatly.

Okay .. nuff said about that. I was just trying to give a “brief” history as to “why” my husband is always in his depressive mode. Oh .. I guess I should add that we have a 27 year old “disabled” son that still lives at home. Our son was only (just recently) diagnosed with Asperger’s. Our son has borderline IQ, OCD and ADD. We made many mistakes with our son, because we (along with the local public school system) did not know what to do for him. My husband was extremely hard on our son. I believe that he could not/would not accept that there was anything wrong with our son. So .. my husband is now lamenting (ALSO) about all of the mistakes he made with our son.

Since about our sixth year of marriage to date, it seems like my husband is always “struggling”. He has had several different affairs, would abuse Ritalin (until his doc would no longer prescribe for him) and now, once again, is drinking every night.

My husband “used to be” self-employed. He “technically” still is, but his partner is the one (basically) keeping their business afloat. My husband is in the building contracting business.. and with the way the local economy has been, things have been really slow. Basically, from what his partner tells me, my husband refuses to do “small” jobs (he used to!). He maintains that he can’t make any $$ with those small jobs. But when encouraged to “bid” on the larger jobs that come to our area, husband maintains that everyone is underbidding, just to keep their employees busy. Well .. if it “works”, right?

When really “pushed” to get back to work (by me), my husband manipulates me and says things like, “Well, make sure you have life insurance on me, ‘cause I don’t think I’ll be around much longer.” He says that his depression just will not get any better. And he cannot “tolerate” people and/or work.

I forgot to mention that for the past 3 years my husband has been on Effexor XR, (antidepressant) Ambien (for sleep), Mirapex (for restless legs) and Provigil (for morning, cause he is so groggy .. from the ambient/alcohol he drank/took previous night)

Our current home is on a farmed/wooded 40 acres left over from our farming era. We have (in the past three years) refinanced twice. The amount of debt on our home/acreage is astronomical .. in my opinion.) Now, my husband is advocating that we borrow $10K more, so that we can (same as he said the two previous times before) “finish our home and sell it.

****** If any of you have made I to this point, I give you three very large gold stars. Whew!! I had no idea this would end up so long!

My frustrations stem from my husband “refusing” to work, using refinance monies as his “allowance”, drinking every night and spending (close to) $1000 monthly on his drinking.

I have done “the usual” .. begged/demanded that he stop drinking, etc. Told him that he MUST go back to work. Of course, all to no avail.

Currently I work more than overtime. If I begin going to Al-Anon meetings, because I am not there (home) it will be used as (yet) another excuse for my husband to head up to the bar on a regular basis. I am thinking that I will try to find a good book that will hopefully “push” me in the right direction as the steps to follow, so that I can gain some peace of mind.

In the meantime though, I MUST find a way to stop my husband from spending so much money at the bars. Does anyone have any idea how I can (diplomatically) do this?

Thanks for any input/feedback.

IG

WOW.... That's a lot of stuff but lets just cut to the bottom line. If your brakes need fixed on your car you'd take it to a mechanic, if you had a tooth ache you'd go to a dentist. So why on God's green earth wouldn't you go to an AlAnon meeting? They are the experts. They can offer you their experience, strength, and hope on dealing with an alcoholic.

What you're doing now obviously ain't working so it's time for a new plan. I don't buy that whole "he'll go drinking if I go to a meeting", he's drinking anyway. Go to a meeting.

Wow! So your husband is a grown man at least 45-50 years old and is drinking every night "because his family betrayed him by not providing for him AS AN ADULT???" He needs counseling...but he won't be open to that until he stops drinking, or at least recognizes the need to quit drinking.

What on earth would make him think his parents "owed" him a farm anyway? Parents have a responsibility to raise a child up to be a SELF-SUFFICIENT adult...not to make sure they work their butts off so they can hand over a ready-made income and make sure the kids are set up. If he truly believes this, then he has more problems that just his drinking...seems a little egocentric to me.

He's acting like a spoiled brat...he seriously needs to grow up and BE A MAN! And you need to get to Al-Anon just as quickly as you can!!

IG,

I like my three gold stars... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Welcome to MarriageBuilders...a great place to read, learn, share and grow, in my opinion (IMO).

Have you read all of Harley's articles on this website? About the Love Bank, Love Busters (LBs), Emotional Needs (ENs) - you can click on the Basic Concepts to the right of your screen. There are great ones on the four rules of marriage, too...

Harley says you can't marriage build in his way when there is an addiction present. I beg to differ...my experience has been different. I believe what Harley means is that marriage building is moot when you and your partner are absorbed in the addiction...and I do agree.

Only takes one of you to choose to stop being consumed in it, and I believe, that's you. You're here.

I perceive your focus is consumed in his stuff...his choices, thoughts, beliefs, perceptions and perspectives. I didn't read about your choices, though I noticed the ones you were making.

We choose where we focus...totally within your control, your power. His choices are not.

You may experience life as if you are the cause, control or cure for his choices...you are not. Nor is he yours...

Is it true you have been choosing not to go to Al-Anon for 28 years?

There is no reason for you guys to not separate your finances...you aren't making financial choices from the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA)...you are choosing to consent to every refinance, every expenditure because you pool your money.

I was shocked when I finally saw this...pooled money to me felt like oneness, mutuality in marriage, a symbol of unity. Just like enmeshment felt like real marriage.

Neither one is real.

Reality is that you are two whole human beings, in a human marriage, with no control over the other...each making their own choices...and the biggest one, to act from your choice to love or not. To own your own stuff, develop and maintain healthy boundaries, and to live from respect. All those are within the choice to live in reality, that humans choose whom they love and to act on their love...then they get loving feelings as a result.

Often, we see ourselves completed in our partner...two halves becoming one...rather than two whole people making one union. When live from enmeshment, we experience life not knowing where we end and our partners begin...can feel safe, if you believe you're half a person...not real. You remain whole, separate and equal human beings.

Unravelling the enmeshment you both have created only takes one partner...the one who is here...through seeing all your own choices, your thoughts, beliefs, feelings, perceptions and perspectives...your own actions...so you can know your power and limits and act from that knowledge.

The more you choose to own, the less you'll own what is not yours...and the more you'll see your H as the whole, complete and capable human he is...when you see your own choices, you'll see his with clarity.

The more you focus on his choices, the less you will your own.

Don't put the byproduct as your goal...don't put it ahead of your stuff...then you will experience life as powerless, helpless, done to and not in control. Which isn't real. You remain powerful, helplful, doing and the cause, control and cure for your own life. That's your responsibility...and where it ends.

I hope this is of aid to you--there are three parts to every marriage...you, him and The Marriage. Often, when you act from love, you may not feeling loving...know then you are acting to honor the marriage, even when you don't feel like honoring him. When you see something as damaging to your H, making him choose poorly, remind yourself, you are acting for the marriage and from respect for it and your H...which helps you to see his choices as his own...you can't make him. He can't make you.

I sure remember living as I could. Until I chose not to.

The best diplomacy is highest honesty...where you decide your stuff, your part, your half of the marriage...what you're willing to do for it...and state what you feel, think, know and what you are doing...like separating your finances. Not as retaliation...an act to honor your marriage. He has his own account, which only he can access. Then you make a marital account which is set up for bill paying only. And then you have your own account, which only you can access. You remove yourself from any of his credit cards...and remove him from yours. You take over paying off your own stuff and half of the marital stuff. You do up a spreadsheet which lists all the monthly bills and totals them...then divide it in two...then you take his net income against half of the bills and pay him whatever remainder there is...same for you against your net income.

All of your personal expenditures come from your own accounts...marital ones from the marital account.

You do it from respect, not fear...both capable and powerful human beings.

You make new boundaries around yourself...because you didn't enforce or respect the old ones, so you obliterated them. You make a new boundary of ownership, not blame. One to not take a single action or speak a single word which you will create resentment in yourself for. You choose to use "I" statements so you can hear and know your own stuff and share it...in this way, you'll see you are separate and equal to your H and live from it.

You will break the enmeshment when you journal, share, act from love and choose not to manipulate (think you can make him angry, happy, frustrated, etc.). Then you cannot be manipulated. You can then be loved...by choice...which is how humans do love. No other way. Can sure feel like you're earning it through being good enough, nice enough, enduring all things...which totally negates you are an equal creation of God, doesn't it?

And when you choose to believe you earn love, then you earn punishment...the flip side...where what you do controls another person's feelings for you...and we don't. We can't. They feel...that's their stuff...and their stuff is valid. We feel and that's our stuff...valid and real, too.

Knowing and sharing our own stuff is intimacy...how we have an intimate marriage. You cannot get there if you believe you cause, control or cure him of his stuff...because that negates your own...doesn't own your human limits...so you experience life through that fantasy...that you make, he makes, and it's a dead end. When you make him responsible for your feelings, your stuff...then you are responsible for his. Means you both live from feelings, instead of choosing and acting from your own beliefs.

Hurts like heck...re-experiencing deja vu, helplessness, powerlessness...all signals to alert you where you're imbalanced, unreal and to bring you home...to reality.

Not bad, wrong; no monsters here, only humans. Making choices.

Welcome.

LA

Hi Bill,

I read through (very quickly) some of your responses to others on these boards this morning. You give out excellent advice.

I did attend Al Anon meetings several years ago, when the lightbulb went on for me that my husband has a totally addictive personality. If it's not one "addiction" it's another.

My husband questions (constantly) everywhere I go, everything I do. I have always kept this type of thing a "secret" from him, 'cause I know he will get very angry/give me a hard time if I go to any kind of counseling or the Al Anon type thing. (In fact .. if he knew I was even considering going to Al Anon, he would totally flip out!) I have gotten to the point that I can't take going up against him any longer. I am so VERY tired ...

You are correct. What I am "doing" right now (nothing) isn't working. The only thing I have to show for ANYTHING is extreme frustrations. These feelings of hopelessness, loss of control, frustrations are really wearing on me. Probably even affecting my health.

Your right. I will probably try to figure out a way to start going back to those meetings....

Thanks for the "kick in the pants"! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

IG

Hi Cathy,

Yes, my H is 52 and I am 49. I am (feeling) way too old to have to continue putting up with my husband's "stuff" any longer.

It's not just the drinking that is his problem. As someone else has consistently posted here .. my husband has a problem with living. He is constantly "looking" for something to mask his pain.

I always thought that my husband had some valid points, in his thoughts about how he got shafted with trying to continue on a (what should have been) an inherited life-style (legacy?). I don't believe that he would feel that anyone "owes" him anything except the chance that everyone else got while he was growing up. This includes other close family members (cousins) that are STILL farming today and doing quite well. The ONLY reason they are doing well is because their parents had the foresight to "hang" on to that legacy for their children. It was (pretty much) the talk of the community (I stress here it IS a farming community .. so they have their mindsets that fit my husbands' to a "T") The talk of this farming community is/was that husband's dad sold a farm that was totally debt free .. without thought of his son. (??? This TRULY is unheard of! My husband's grandfather pretty much "gave" the farm to his son. His grandfather "sold" it to his dad for next to nothing. This is VERY common in farm families that want that lifestyle to continue on.

Anyway, that big talk in this farming community was that husband's dad did this (sold the family farm) and then expected my husband to go out and leverage himself way too much and then belittle him, make him feel like a total failure when he couldn't make it.

Okay .. enough said about that. I agree. He needs to get over all of this and get on with the business of living.

I don't know if he will ever be able to do that ... ? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

My husband has been to numerous psychologists over the years for counseling and maintains that "they are all it in for the money. He knows what he has/needs to do, all he has to do is DO it! So, why should he fork out money for these quack counselors, when he is smarter than them!?" Currently, all my husband sees is a psych doc that prescribes all of his meds. He sees him once every three months for his med check. I told my husband that I wanted to accompany him at his last (April) appt. He hit the ceiling, because he knew I would tell his doc what is really going on and cause all kinds of problems.

Thanks for your response.

IG

LA,

You make MANY very valid points here. I will have to respond later today when I have more time.

Thanks much for your response!

I will be back ..... !

IG

Bill,

"Replying" again, 'cause I saw your post (elsewhere) in regards to finding ways to decrease/stop the $$ from flowing through the alcoholics hands.

In my situation, if I would refuse to give H cash or a check so that he can "do what he wants" all h*ll would break loose. I am the one that "handles" both our checking/savings accounts. Which just amounts to having to keep him abreast of the "bad news" about where those account balances are .. because of his spending.

He does pretty much what he wants, when he wants.

That said .. I am trying (in vain) to come up with something "creative" OR non-accusatory to verbalize to him as to how/why it needs to stop.

If I would take his name off any of these accounts .. well, I guess he would advocate that "it" is over ..

Maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing though .. ?

(big sigh here)

I'm assuming y'all are carrying a fairly large debt load. How much of the refi $'s are left? If there is some then you're pretty much left with a choice. You can allow that to be drank away or choose to pay down bills and accept that he'll be upset. I wouldn't suggest that if your in physical danger but if your not then I would.

.. Another BIG sigh. I am just SO tired of it all ..

I don't think I need to be concerned about my physical welfare. I truly just can't stand the arguing/big time manipulation on his part when I try to advocate we take some positive steps. Of course, my advocating his stopping his drinking and start working, well, he thinks I'm as dumb as a rock 'cause I didn't understand what he already explained to me .. about the fact that there is no work out there right now (duh) and even IF there was he "can't" work any more. As far as the drinking .. that is the only way that he is making it through from one day to the next...

At this moment (haven't checked the account today) we would have enough to pay 5 months more on our current mortgage payments. The big "plan" is to get our house sold so that we would not have that big debt. (Close to $1600 monthly mortgage). This .. for our income level, is way to high. If my husband was working that would be another story.

With the economy the way it is in our area (very depressed) we can't count on selling our house .. right away . IF at all!

Because of our low refi balance he is once again advocating we borrow more money. IF he hadn't already drank $10K already we would be that much further ahead!!

Sorry for my rantings. As I mentioned before, my frustrations are at an all time high.

Well 1st and foremost you don't have to sign anything agreeing to refinance, that is your choice and within your power to refuse.

Next it sounds as if you have approximately 8,000 in the bank. I don't know if you listen to Dave Ramsy but he suggests you keep an emergency fund of somewhere around 2-3 months wages for those just in-cases. Now, if'n I were you I'd transfer 1/2 that money to a safe account. BUT and here's the big but, I'm at a whole other place than you. I'd then pay like two months of the mortgage and have basically nothing in the bank except what goes in to cover bills. Having been an active addict I would do whatever possible to keep money away from someone like I was.

Your smartest move maybe to take $200 and consult and atty to see what your financial options are.

I guess another bottom line is where are you in the relationship?

Paralyzed!!

Frustrated beyond belief .. but paralyzed.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Thank you LA for your very thoughtful .. thought provoking post to me.

I did a little bit of searching, but am finding it taking to long to find your original threads. Would you mind linking it here for me? I am very interested in reading your situation and how you were able to overcome your obstacles.



This all sounds so wonderful, the fact that I might be able to achieve some of these things ...

I will continue reading, posting and trying to "find my way" here.

Anxious to hear back from you and read up more on your story.

IG

I guess .. in a nutshell, these are all saying .."Hey! IG, begin with starting to own your own "stuff". Leave all of your husband's "stuff" alone!! There is absolutely nothing you can do about his "stuff" anyways!!"



As mentioned in an earlier post, I did go for a couple of months several years ago. (When he was having consecutive affairs.) He had no idea that I was going to Al-Anon meetings, I told him I was going to a bible study. He began complaining about me being gone so much (I work a lot, too) so, I had to eventually stop the Al-Anon. I know! I should not have!! I will be heading back to those meetings!

I am looking forward to hearing back from you. I am very interested in reading up on the details of your journey. Hopefully it will help me in "seeing" how I can apply it in my life.

Thanks!
IG

Almost forgot to add ..right now, our financial issue is (one of the foremost) things in my mind. It did not really hit home (up until the past several months) what kind of damage he is doing to "us". If I insist on not making money "available" to him, or separate checking accounts .. or ANYTHING of the like, well .. my husband would perceive that as the ultimate slap in the face. .. And it would be off again on one of his three day (several week long?) tirades and (again!) the "ultimate" in another one of his manipulation trips.

Hi LA,

Are you out there?

Just thought I'd change my subject line (temporarily) to get your attention....

Thanks!
IG

I'm here, IG...lost my way quite a bit.

Thank you for the call out...you can change the title back.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Linking my old threads...I haven't had many. My history can be found here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2985922

Not my first thread...halfway down the page, sort of, I tell 2BNormal a summarized version.

"I guess .. in a nutshell, these are all saying .."Hey! IG, begin with starting to own your own "stuff". Leave all of your husband's "stuff" alone!! There is absolutely nothing you can do about his "stuff" anyways!!"

I think you said this better than I did, IG. You already know "listen and repeat with filter", I think.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I began with what you control and you cannot because that's straight from Al-Anon. And it's where I began, too.

I read your two posts a few times...and didn't reply because I perceived you are saying that you want to stay married at all costs. If you enforce your boundary or respect his stuff as his, then he'll leave...so you're basing your choices on his choice of actions.

We don't do marriage here at all costs...way too pricey for any human. What we do is say here's a great way to live your life within marriage...your choice.

"the "ultimate" in another one of his manipulation trips."

I believe that both of you are engaged in manipulation...you are choosing what you do and not do based on his possible response. Which is the same thing he's doing...in my perception.

Manipulation isn't bad or wrong...it's not healthy because it's fantasy. You can't make him leave for three days or a week...and he can't make you not go to Al-Anon...not share your stuff.

We can sure experience life as if we make others and they make us, though.

In reality, respecting his choices is the way to respect your own...and see them as separate.

If I said, "If you take this pill, you may thrive," would you not take it if a side effect was your H being angry at you?

Oh, I just had a V8 moment...my very first suggestion to you would have been to post in Infidelity: General Questions II forum. It gets the most traffic and you've had this experience in your marriage.

It's all tied together, by the way.

I wasn't ignoring your post...I was pondering what to say...from my highest honesty.

Thank you for persisting and being here.

You are not alone, bad or wrong...and you're not crazy. If you choose to copy and paste your post in GQII, you'll find many helpful people who have been where you are right now.

LA

On LovingAnyways advice, I have "officially" moved this thread to:

28 Years With "Addictive" Husband ..

I copied and pasted LA's last response to me over to that thread .. and will be responding over there.

Thanks!
IG

Other people more experienced than I am were giving you advice on dealing with the marriage, so all I was going to do was make a suggestion about the financial situation... but someone beat me to that also! Dave Ramsey is an excellent source for financial advice, especially dealing with and getting out of debt. He has a 12-week course called "Financial Peace University" that our church offers, and I've even seen it offered at a local credit union. It costs about $100 but our church offers "scholarships" to some people. There is a lot of information online also, for free, at his website www.DaveRamsey.com. It won't be easy if your husband isn't on board, but maybe there's something there you can use to "stop the (money) hemorhaging" (my words - how I've felt!). Is there any chance at all that he would get on board with coming up with a financial plan, or at least to following a budget that you (with or without him) make?

Even if he won't participate, I urge you to apply what you can from Dave Ramsey's stuff anyway, to protect yourself.