I did start that other thread so as not to jack this one. I have been silent for a while and not posting my thoughts because they are not exactly MB. I now think there may be a few others who have similar thoughts. I think it helps to get them into the open.

I also have that "undeserving" feeling. I suspect mine may even be stronger than yours but you also have to look at the situations. We are not exactly in the same boat in that regard.

I do have a great deal of trouble with WW meeting my needs. That is mainly due to the fact that (as is well documented on the forum) I don't have many needs. We did install a natural rock fountain (from rocks we found in the jebels) and I did teach WW how to use a pneumatic hammer. I have to admit I've never seen her so sexy. Nothing like a woman with power tools. Oh well....

Okay last one. Yes WW blamed me for the A. It was definitely all my fault from her POV. Now she says that she made many things up to help justify her A. My response to that is she is once again rewriting history to her convenience. She says what ever is the most suitable to her needs at any given time. I respect both versions equally and that is not very much. Whether she still partially blames me or not is something I have never asked. I don't see the point as I would never know if her answer were the truth or not.

I spend most of my time trying to find the correct perspective from which to view things. I find that if I look at things a certain way, it makes the day go by much more easily. Some days I don't even think about the A at all. Today is not one of them BTW. I hate to sound callous because I'm not sure I know how to spell it but what I find the most helpful is not caring whether WW stays or goes. I am very detached from her right now and that seems to be the most stable place. There are times when I worry about renewed contact or even a new affair and that seems to be the most destructive.

I know I can't prevent her from an A. I don't even want to try. I also know that I will be perfectly fine if we do split up and, in fact, might even be much happier. So really I have less to lose if we do split. That is kind of a sad way of looking at things but I'm also not the one who started this.

Do I blame myself for the A? No way. WW herself has stated many times that she never once confronted me with any problems she might have been having. I also look back on our M and I still see it as way so much better than anybody I can see around us. If anything, in hindsight, one problem I can see we had is that WW never had to work at our relationship. I loved and adored her and did anything for her. She had very little of her efforts invested in the M so maybe that is why she didn't value it so much. Was I perfect? No way. Am I perfect now? Not even close. Will I ever be? I haven't stopped trying yet.

What I think about more than anything else is the distant future. What about when the kids graduate college (or beauty school) and leave? Is WW someone I want to be left with? Honestly speaking, I have doubts. A lot can change between now and then too so I don't stress too much. Who knows? I might even die before that day and then all that worrying would have been for naught.

I think the key is to find the right frame of mind. What I have found is that the most apparently successful frame of mind might be a hinderance to true marital recovery. OTOH, it takes two to tango and it takes two to recover a M. I still don't feel that WW is pulling her weight (an she weighs less than I do). I also still feel like, given the right circumstances, she would still rather be with OM than me. Right or wrong - it is how I truly feel. She does nothing to dissuade that. So if I feel that she would rather be with OM, I feel like I wish she would leave and be done with it. Again - I may be way off base but since she never discusses any of this, I will continue to assume the worst.

If it weren't for the kids, life would be much different for me right now. Remaining married is compromising my happiness. The kids make it worth it but I still daydream about greener grass too. That green grass is bachelor grass BTW.

I am going to go super dark on Plan A.

Incredible.

I have learned so very much, just by reading this thread. piojitos...you have an amazing thought process. You remind me of someone who was once very close to me. I really dont think I would be a big enough person to go through what you all are going through. Yes, I have been both a Ws and a Bs. Marriage did not last however, for other reasons. Well, maybe not. The unresolved anger I had....Anyhow, different time, different irrelevant story. Keep up the great work Tator and pijitos. I truely respect and empathasize with where y'all are at.

Dara

I think I derive a lot of comfort just by realizing that I am not alone. I know that was the case when I first began posting here after Dday. If nothing else, it is comforting to know that there are a lot of other people who are even interested in saving their M after infidelity. That, in and of itself, is a great leap of faith.

MB people really got me along the road. If it were not for MB, I wouldn't even have the chance at recovery.

Now I just find I am in a problem. I'm not in a "funk" as ToddAC used to call it. I believe I am thinking with more clarity and rationality than I have in years. Romance should never be analyzed because none would ever survive the scrutiny. Unfortunately WW must take full credit for putting us in this Petri dish.

I'll give an analogy. Have you ever gone into a store to buy a planer/jointer and been faced with several models that have similar features but vary in price by $100-$200 and couldn't decide which one to buy? Well then you know EXACTLY what I am talking about. The salesman/saleswoman comes over to see if you need anything so you start asking why this planer/jointer with apparently similar features to the other one costs $120 more? What is the justification of spending the extra money for no obvious benefit?

The salesperson can either say "gee, I don't know" or "well this planer/jointer may LOOK the same but in reality it has automatic feed, biscuit cutting capability, etc. and you are in fact quite lucky that it is currently on discount and ONLY costs $120 more." Well I don't have to tell you how great that is do I? Obviously we are going to spend that $120!

I absolutely detest useless salespeople who don't have a clue what they are selling and/or have no sales skills. Shouldn't that be in the job description? Why is it my job to sift through all the information, features and benefits, etc. to see which one fits my needs better? Shouldn't they be doing that? Why should I be required to sell it to myself?

So here I am. I am asking myself "What is the true benefit to ME to remain in this marriage?". WW is telling me "gee, I don't know".

BTW, my WW is operating beyond tolerance, has defective bearings, is difficult to align and doesn't come with a guarantee. Maybe I should have gotten the less expensive model?

So where do you think the WS did put the blame. He had to put it somewhere!

L.

His answer to most questions pertaining to the A is, "I don't know." or "I don't remember."

I can say that my H has very low self-esteem but can get into a "It's all about ME" mode. I believe that his As (1 PA and several EAs with some kissing) all derived from some attention given to him. It boosted his ego and he went for it. Though he denies it, his #1 EN is admiration. Not just from me, but from everyone.

I think he takes the blame but hates to admit it out loud. He doesn't like to be reminded of it so there's not much communication. The more I think about it, the more I realize there could be so much more involved here. I don't want to analyze too much as to why he did it like some BSs do. They tend to spend too much time on that aspect that they lose their true intentions in saving the marriage.

Two of the OWs told me how my marriage was in trouble during their As. H made up stories to get their sympathy. I was at home with the kids, making dinner, doing chores, thinking everything was fine. I thought I was a good wife to let my H go out after work with some friends. Little did I know that he was then going to the OW's house after a several beers.

Orchid: Typical WS response. Why? Because IF you buy that response, they do NOT have to give you the truth and in some cases, they are working hard at blocking the truth from their own minds.

You can use this info as a tool. Reverse babble worked for me when that stuff was thrown my way.

[/quote]I can say that my H has very low self-esteem but can get into a "It's all about ME" mode. I believe that his As (1 PA and several EAs with some kissing) all derived from some attention given to him. It boosted his ego and he went for it. Though he denies it, his #1 EN is admiration. Not just from me, but from everyone.[/quote]

Orchid: That is also typical of a WS. So far he is following the script and not even know it. Their is a saying that a man like this is like a 'bull being led to the slaughter'. He goes willingly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

That need or greed for attention w/b his downfall. It will boost his ego and kill him. You can and should share that info with him. Mine was the same way.

Even if that is a legitimate need doesn't mean you need to fill it as the OW's do. They are not truthful with their attention and in time that house of cards will fall.

[/quote]I think he takes the blame but hates to admit it out loud. He doesn't like to be reminded of it so there's not much communication. The more I think about it, the more I realize there could be so much more involved here. I don't want to analyze too much as to why he did it like some BSs do. They tend to spend too much time on that aspect that they lose their true intentions in saving the marriage. [/quote]

Orchid: Again very typical WS stance. Even if he doesn't like t/b reminded, he s/b. By others as well. Let your support group know this. They can help.

Over analyzing is bad but some is good. Learn balance and apply as needed. After analyzing, it is good to work on a plan.

[/quote]Two of the OWs told me how my marriage was in trouble during their As. H made up stories to get their sympathy. I was at home with the kids, making dinner, doing chores, thinking everything was fine. I thought I was a good wife to let my H go out after work with some friends. Little did I know that he was then going to the OW's house after a several beers. [/quote]

Orchid: Of course the OWs are going to tell you the M was in trouble. What else do you expect them to say?

Yes, he had to lie to make you look bad. After all what OW would have a WS who said he was an abuser and neglected his family? Well... some real desparate ones might want to spin even that line their way....but that's the fog. You don't want t/b in the fog, right?

Make it your aim to stay out of the fog and NOT accept his blame. Give him back his guilt.

Btw, what you listed above is pretty close to what I went through. I even fell for that OW line. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ..... for a while... then I got mad and got into plan B. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Okay this screams at me.

Orchid,

You have pointed out so much. These are things I should already know. I've read enough on this forum to see this is pretty typical of most WSs.

I have talked to him about some of his characteristics that I believe helped fuel his desire for attention from a gaggle of hoochie mamas. He agreed with me to an extent but I'm not sure if he did just because it would give me the reason for his wanderings. Then, I might quit prodding him with more "why" questions. I'd have my answers! So...no more questions!

I've tried to look at it from a different perspective. I never did take any of the blame. I knew things were okay at home. He never gave indications that he was unhappy with me. I did know he was depressed after his father passed away. I did view him as a complete stranger from the man who courted and married me. Never in my wildest dreams would I predict he would betray me. I felt duped! Scratch that!!! I FEEL duped!

Yes, Piojotos. He portrayed me in an unkind way so that he could gain their trust and sympathy. But don't they all?

Actually I meant a little more than that. I am dealing with a bunch of second-graders now and it reminds me of the way things were when I was a kid. Most kids want attention. Many tend to fabricate things or embellish truths to draw attention to themselves. Then when they get caught in the lie, the other kids can be quite cruel about it. So most people (I think) grow out of it (the lying/embellishing) and then move on to exaggerated behaviors to draw attention.

Your comment made me think your H never grew out of that phase and it seems very immature on his part. Of course, I don't know what he really lied about but I am taking your comment at face value.

Maybe that is another one to add to his resume - immaturity. That could also be the reason behind his lack of remorse. Children don't like to apologize either.

OK. So today I am driving to my son's school for a bbq lunch when I realize that I am driving behind OW's car. I get up real close, wanting to bash it. She doesn't know it's me because I have a new vehicle since '02. She's driving the same POS with her name on her plates.

It's definitely a trigger for me. Why is she on MY side of town? For a moment, I wish I still had her cell phone # so I can call her and say, "Hey! Turn around! I'm right on your [censored]!"

Later in the day, I tell my H about seeing her and my visions of her crumpled car on the side of the road. He apologizes! He said, "I am so sorry you still have to go through this. It's all my fault. You know I love you."

It's a little bit of what I'm needing, I guess. Tonight, I still feel the pain of seeing her but I also feel some resolve from his apology. He truly sounded sincere.

One step closer.

A few weekends ago, I told WW we should take the DD's to the pool. She replied that she didn't want to go to the pool because it held too many memories for her. I kept silent when she said that. (OM was the DDs' swimming instructor and that is where she conducted most of her affair - at the pool - every single day). Even though we would have been going to a different pool, there were too many similarities for WW. So I just sit on this feeling of revulsion I have toward her. Two days ago, she suggested I take the DDs to the pool. I didn't even suggest she come with us because of her previous comment. But I am seething even before we leave the house. I am seething at the pool. Then I start playing with DDs and forget it. I remind myself that anger is a secondary emotion so I ask myself what I am angry about. I am angry because I am married to someone who would rather be with someone else. That is not fair to me. She should leave and give me my freedom to not be in this position or find someone who does want to be with me. I get home and I don't really want to speak to WW because I don't want to fight. So I don't.

We got in an argument yesterday. She wanted piña coladas and needed juice and coconut cream. She told me to go to the mini-mart. I went to the big store and got the cream and had to go to another store to get the juice. (I never went to the mini-mart). I got home and she asked where I had been and I told her. Her response was, "why didn't you go to the mini-mart". I didn't really want a "thank you" but I didn't expect to be reprimanded for my effort either. I got pissed and let her know about it and "the pool" came up. I told her that it made me feel really bad that she could not force herself to go to the pool because it would make her love sick for OM. She said that going to the pool would be too embarrassing for her. I told her it was embarrassing for me too. All I could think about was what the life guards were whispering behind my back "there goes that fool whose wife was screwing the swimming instructor". I am ashamed to go to the pool. But I have to because my DDs can't understand my feelings and there is no way I would even want to explain it to them. I have to suffer this indignation because it is what the DDs need.

So yet again I have to suck it up. I have to suffer the humiliation because WW would just be too sad to go to the pool. Just more selfish behavior. Only thinking about herself.

No I didn't get an apology either. It is like my feelings about anything are a foreign concept to WW. Her feelings are paramount and I mean nothing (as during and after the A).

I told WW that if she missed OM that much, she should just fix it. She should just leave and go be with him. It would be a shame to sacrifice true love with her one soulmate just because of guilt over abandoning her children.

She says I misunderstand her and doesn't understand why I won't trust her. I replied that, since she refuses to ever discuss anything A related, I don't have any basis for knowing what her feelings are. I asked if she was that embarrassed about the A, why did she keep a scrapbook of OM?

Ok. Not only is she on MY side of town, she is living right out my back door.

I've had a funny feeling. So, I used my resources and found her address. Her nasty [censored] is living in a condo behind my house. I can stand on my deck and see where she parks her POS car. If I wait long enough, I'll be able to see her walk to her mailbox. I can yell at her as she stands on her back porch and she can yell back. I can still remember her voice the last time I talked to her. She said, "You fat b****! I'm going to call my lawyer!" Not sure why, since she was the one trying to run over me in the tattoo parlor parking lot. Nice.

There are plenty of condos and apartments to live in. Why, after 5 years, did she choose to live by us?

My H reassures me that there has been no contact and will be no contact. He will not treat her like someone he does not know, but someone he DOES know and despises. He promises absolutely no contact.

She's back in our lives.

I want to sell the house and move far away.

Soooo.....what kind of tattoo did you get?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> You made me laugh!!!!!

Actually, my H was getting a tattoo while the hoochie mama watched. I happened to drive by and see his vehicle in the lot. I made a nice little scene and kicked a big ole dent in his truck. One of my proudest moments!

Oh! And he had his teeth whitened, his hair dyed, paid several visits to a tanning salon, bought some muscle shirts, and played softball on a team full of guys half his age.

Hmmm....

Does he listen to "The Village People"?

Does he like gladiator movies?

Just wondering...

OW MAY not be your real problem....

That was 5 years ago. I believed he was going through a mid-life crisis.

No...there has never been (and isn't now) any question concerning his sexuality.

You were joking, right?

Yes I was joking. That is, of course, unless he likes gladiator movies... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />