Dude,

""she would become all upset at the thought that I would be “spying” on her. ""

RED FLAG!! OK, what is she hiding that she does not want you to be spying on her?? One of the basic tenents of MB and a healthy marriage is TRANSPARENCY!

This is a serious red flag.

""She kept saying that it would become impossible for her to continue working under these conditions.""

Serious FOG BABBLE...does not make sense unless the "working" is inapropriate.


""By the time I left this morning, she seemed resigned to the idea that she would report to me in advance.""

Hey, anything to appease you at the moment. Good luck with that....Friday = Funday

""(I know you all think I’m the thickest guy in the world, given all the indirect evidence)""

Well, I wouldn't say in the WORLD <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Every BS here has had some level of denial. No one wants to believe the spouse they love might be unfaithful.

We, who have been on this sight for a while see the pattern, the actions and the fog babble of your wife and unfortunately it is nothing new.

Stay strong and stick to your boundaries.

kirk

Do you have any friends that you could recruit to spy on her for you? Ones that she wouldn't know by sight? If she knows you're there, she's obviously not going to act wayward. You could also consider getting a GPS unit attached to her car.

I don't remember if you've mentioned this or not...how much of her communication with OM is done via computer? Can you put a keylogger on her computer to track her IM's/emails? See if she's got an email account that you're not aware?

How about a background check on OM?

You get the idea. You're looking for more concrete proof...so here are some ideas to help you get it. You know her and your situation better than we do...start thinking of ways that you can get the info you're looking for.

Owl, she doesn't need the computer to communicate with OM since she sees him everyday at work, and then gets together at their working sessions or spends hours on her cellphone with him.

I will look into the recorder for the car, but I am hoping the car boundary stands firm. (Although, maybe I should drop it just for this reason?)

OM is just an underachieving loser, who perfectly fits the typical profile...no life of his own, in a rundown apartment, underemployed (soon to be unemployed), no car, never in serious relationship, spends hours alone playing video games, no close friends, and thinks he is a superior being.

I don't know how I can get hard evidence of suspected PA.

Something very disturbing happened this morning. I will try not to be too graphic, after I had been very affectionate towards her in bed this morning (and she just lying passively as usual), she suddenly sat up and performed an "act" that I can't even remember her doing in years. It was absolutely amazing. I was so thrilled afterwards.

But then, a horrible truth began to sink in. When she used to do it...and she used to quite often and really enjoy it...it was very nice and giving of her. But,it was NEVER anywhere near this amazing. Her techniques were totally different.

I am broken by that thought.

Nowin

I keep reading you make excuse after excuse , trying to convince yourself that your wife is possibly NOT having an affair.

You say you dont have "concrete" evidence and then take no action on one of the many suggestions on how to GET some
( voice activated recorder). It sounds alot to me like you just dont WANT to know.

The reality is, your wife IS having an affair. She is having an affair and will continue to have an affair until YOU stop it. And it will not stop until you DO something about it.

You sound like a very sweet man. You deserve better. You deserve honesty and a loving supportive partner. Maybe your W can give that to you. But she wont until you get rid of the WW and get your W back.

Please, PLEASE do something before there is nothing left to do.

Do NOT drop the idea of spying on her!!!!!!!!!!

You need to get the truth of what's going on...PERIOD.

Another word of warning too...what you described that happened this morning is pretty common too. Its pretty common for a wayward spouse to offer up SF (or do something spectacular in SF) to their BS while in the throes of an affair...they do it to throw their BS 'off their scent'...to lull them into a false sense of security. She might even have said something along the lines of "See, there, I wouldn't be doing that with you if I was cheating on you, would I?".

Seriously...get a recorder in place. Get a hold of her cell phone and look at her text logs...if it's internet/picture enabled, take a look at those areas on the phone as well. Since he doesn't have a car and is always riding in hers, getting a recorder in her phone is an immediate MUST DO. If there's truly something going on, you'll likely learn it very quickly that way.

She is playing you like a fiddle, nowin. Why would you choose to be played for a fool rather than try and save your marriage?

OK Owl, ML and others, I have just bought myself a digital recorder as you've urged. Neat little device I must say. I was overwhelmed by all the choices, so I just went with a Sony. Anyways, it seems like it should work and I now know I will have some good opportunities to put it to use this week.

Friday was an interesting day by the way. This is her regular workday of course, and according to my new boundaries, she was to report to me on her locations with OM. She seemed to be doing this nicely in the early afternoon, calling me each place they were.

However, I decided to just check up anyways and drove over to the library where she last said they were to see if I could spot our van. When I didn't, I called her and, acting naive, asked if she was still at the library . She responded in the affirmative and that she would be finished working in about an hour. I was surprised that I didn't see the van anywhere, but I didn't let on and just went home.

Later on I asked about her parking, and it came out that she had left the library over half an hour before my call and gone over to her work. She claimed that it was a mistake that she had said yes to still being at the library, but it was just an oversight because she was rushing to come home. Of course she only left there an hour later.

That's bad enough, but I have to reveal that her work place was empty at the time and she has keys to a private room there. So despite the strict boundaries, it didn't take even a full day for her to thwart them.

The digital recorder will go into the car tonight. Once I have something solid...it will be time for exposure plus.

I'm glad you made the choice to get a recorder. I've got a feeling that you're going to have prepare yourself to hear some pretty harsh things on it after you get it in place and start tracking what's going on.

This "I forgot to tell you" lie is a CLEAR sign that somethings going on that should be...after you made it crystal clear what you needed/expected from her, she lies to you outright.

What about her cell phone? Are you able to get to it to look for texts to/from OM?

Cymanca,
I was intrigued by your signature, the one about you only have one chance to do a great plan B. It interested me because I am on day 1 of plan B. It has taken all of my restraint not to call or text my WH and I am actually amazed he hasn't contacted me yet. I am worried I will cave too easily and take him back. I told him to leave until he could commit to making our marriage work and would end his affair. He keeps telling me its over and then I find texts to and from her. This has been going on for 8 months and he says he just can't stop but he won't leave either. He has said a few times he would send the letter ending it but he has to do it in his own time but he never does. I have been trying plan A for many months and it has gotten better but he just won't cut off all contact. I have read all about plan b but I'm still worried I will screw it up. Any advise?

nowin, it is not an appropriate "boundary" for your wife to be hanging out with her lover. The boundary should be NO CONTACT and NO LOVERS.

You don't need a tape recording to know they are having an affair. You are just wasting your time trying to PROVE WHAT YOU ALREADY KNOW.

Go return the tape recorder and stop paying good money to avoid conflict. you are just being silly.

OWL, I have indeed been running through my mind the various horrible things I may hear on the recorder now that I placed it in her car this morning. I keep jumping between expecting the worse, and perhaps the faint hope that it really is nothing afterall.

As far as her cell...she doesn't text, not that sophisticated. In fact, now that she knows I'm watching her cell records, she has completely stopped calling OM on it (used to speak regularly).

ML, I feel I need some hard evidence, or I can't properly expose or Plan B. She is still adamant that nothing is going on and I'm only doing this because I have always thwarted every attempt by her to succeed in life. She has made it clear that she is not willing to give up this project and that OM is not willing to leave it either.

In a day or two I will have the results of the recorder. I think it's worth the investment (actually I could even return in within 30 days), if only to provide me with the resolve to carry through on a solid Plan B.

Bear in mind that it's appropriate to expose as part of plan A. Plan B only comes after a complete and thorough plan A...and there's no results and your lovebank is running empty and its time to focus on you far more than your WS.

I can understand why you want to wait to expose until you've got the proof...but I'm cautioning you that exposing and jumping directly to plan B will give the wrong message to your WW and those you expose to.

You're right OWL...I'm jumping the gun here. I have been doing a modified Plan A, except for the NC part so far. Once I have solid proof in hand, then I will go full exposure, Plan A...and demand NC.

There you go. If you don't mind my asking...what improvements are you doing for yourself? Hitting the gym? Getting involved in old (or new) hobbies? Dressing nicer?

This is far more important than you would think. It makes you more stable, more able to think rationally through all of this. It also makes you more attractive to your WW too. It shows more confidence, independence, etc... All of that will add up even if she doesn't realize what's going on.

Since you're going through all of these scenarios in your head (and most of us in your shoes do)...start PLANNING OUT your responses to each of the possible situations you can envision...and plan the best response you can to regain your marriage. Be ready to deal with all of this without going berserk...the better you can manage this, the better the long term possibility of recovery.

Make sense? "Pray for the best, plan for the worst."

Owl, as far as improvements...it is mostly in terms of just being nicer to her and helping out more around the house. Those were her biggest complaints. She also is unhappy with my weight, so I've been restricting my intake (made easier due to the torment in my stomach).

I would love to go out to the gym and return to a hobby, but I simply don't have any spare time since I am practically a single parent now that she is out all the time and we have 5 kids at home.

UPDATE: Day #1 of using the digital recorder was inconclusive. Due to background noises, a number of potentially key words were muffled. (Does anyone know of a good noise filtering software so I can try and isolate those words???)

I set it up again today, in hopefully a better location and a fresh set of batteries (it died halfway through yesterday).

In other news: I did my first exposure...to a real good moral friend of hers, who is unfortunately overseas for another month. After getting over her initial shock, she and her H have offered to intervene. They are very wise, and have supported a number of couples over the years through some difficult times. I know my W has tremendous respect for them, so it will be interesting to see how she reacts.

Sounds like the weight loss is a good start. You might consider getting up earlier in the morning if you can manage, and doing a work out around the house...go for a run, lift things in the garage, etc... I'm just thinking of ways to burn off some of the angst I'm sure you're feeling.

On the recorder...I don't know anything about noise filtering, but relocating it might be a good idea. If nothing else, having it in there over a period of time will give you good odds of learning something.

Also...its GREAT to have resources you can talk with about what you're doing, and what you're going through...a good side affect of exposure.

So how are things going, Nowin?

Thanks for checking in on me Owl. A lot has happened and a lot hasn't happened.

I have been using the recorder and the results are...inconclusive. On the good side...there is no explicit evidence of a PA. On the bad side...she continues to lie and cover up her movements and meetings with OM. There is no doubt of an EA, although they never use specific terms of endearment. The thing that hurts is that her mood at home is constantly negative, down, cold, exhausted, etc. Whenever she is with OM, it is the opposite...laughing, playful, warm, etc.

She keeps telling me how much she wants to save our M. But whenever I press her on specifics, it turns into a long list of all the terrible things I have ever done and how she doubts I can change enough to satisfy her. Although she does admit she is pleased with the positive changes I have introduced.

When I try to raise the question of what exactly she is willing to do...she then goes on a rant about how she can't stand the demands I make to restrict her freedom and to control her every move. In other words...she hasn't shown the least bit of intent to change.

Her one big concession is to go to a MC. But even that she keeps trying to delay and talks about how it will be a process for many years.

I know I should push now for NC, but she is in a very fragile place...extremely depressed by her life and borderline suicidal. She sees NC as ending the last possible career opportunity in her life.

Sometimes in weaker moments she seems so vulnerable and part of me almost wants her to enjoy those moments of happiness with the OM. Maybe I'm the crazy one!

We are seeing an MC tomorrow night.

Well, I think I'd let her know that 'wanting to save the marriage' and 'working to save the marriage' aren't the same thing.

If that's what she wants, she needs to make the choice to do so...and then start WORKING towards making that happen.

It took my wife a good while to make that choice...but even then, it was a good while before she got the idea of what kind of work she was going to have to do.

Two thoughts. One...do NOT back off on pushing for NC! Keep this as a FIRM BOUNDARY that you will NOT accept any deflection from!!!! Trust me...you think that you might lose her if you enforce this? I'm telling you that you WILL lose her if you do not. Be gentle, loving...but FIRM. This MUST stay in place...it's got to be non-negotiable.

Second thought...have you got a copy of SAA? If she says she's willing to work on the marriage, then take the time to read a bit of that every night before you go to sleep. Try doing the same with "20 (Surprisingly Simple) Rules and Tools for a Great Marriage". This was the homework our MC gave us...and it helped tremendously.

If she says she wants to work on the marriage, then maybe she's ready to be 'educated' in how to do that. If she's not, you're probably going to have to wait a bit longer until more fog clears.

Hang in there!

Absolutely agree on the huge gap between "wanting to save" and "WORKING to save" the M. That is what is so disheartening about her responses each time she gives me that sincere look and grabs my hand and says those words. That is why it hurts even more when she tells me she hasn't been with OM and I know otherwise. That is why I am in dismay that not only has she not tried to become more transparent, she has gone deeper underground with her actions.

Tonight is our first session with an MC and I am counting on the MC to provide me with the backup to demand NC. Right now there is no "3rd party" arguing how dangerous even an EA can be. So my W is convinced that she is not in an EA, and that such an animal doesn't even really exist.

The 3 other key people in her life (her best GF, her IC, and OM) that she spends hours talking with, are all reinforcing this and pushing her to stand up to my "attempts to control her like a little child". So it's me against the 4 of them. I am badly outnumbered and my messages appear only self-serving.

I haven't read SAA, but will look to order it now. I did take out a book called "Not Just Friends" by a Dr. Cooper from the library which I think has some very similar messages. I even got her to read part of it. But, she stopped after a few pages, telling me that it was garbage like that and what I'm reading on the internet (MB!) that was giving me these crazy ideas and undermining any hope to repair our M.

As I said before, in her foggy mind, the only way to repair our M, is for me to do make wholesale changes.. and to lay off any attempts to restrict her "freedom". She cannot come up with a single thing she thinks she needs to change.