By the way, I took the kids to see Spiderman 3 last night. There is a scene in which Peter Parker's GF momentarily betrays him, first giving all sorts of typical excuses and then with a simple kiss with an OM. My youngest beside me asked why I was crying.

So she IS still in contact with OM? How do you know this?

I am very confused on the NC issue. I just read the very first letter on this website by Dr. Harley on dealing with a WW and he advises the BH to do a Plan A for 6 months while she continues an A with OM! Only, if after the 6 months, there is no change should he switch to Plan B.

But, everyone on this forum has been insisting that I demand NC immediately from my WW. (As I had explained, this is made even more complicated due to a signed working agreement she has with OM.)

Can someone please clarify for me why Dr. Harley had made this recommendation for 6 months without an NC requirement??? I am very confused and this is really gnawing at me.

I suggest you make an appointment for phone counseling with the Harley's...either Steve or Jennifer Chalmers. They are Dr. Willard Harley's son and daughter. It will probably be $185 well spent.

You can also listen to their radio call in program online...click on the button at the top right of the page. Then, if the program is live, you can call in and ask Dr. Willard Harley yourself.

Nowin-

I don't understand your confusion, personally. What you're expected to do in plan A is pretty simple...not easy, but simple.

You DO insist on NC...you continually push for it, make it clear that you are NOT going to complacently accept her remaining in contact with her OM. What SH and others counsel (per my understanding, and I look for those that HAVE counseled with the H's to confirm or correct me) is that it likely won't happen immediately. It could take months for you to get it in place...that's why plan A doesn't end overnight.

However...please go back and re-read...you do NOT sit there and blithely accept contact with OM. The GOAL of plan A is to put pressure on her to end the affair. The intent is to make the affair extremely uncomfortable for her to continue...by allowing her to suffer the consequences of her wayward actions, by exposure, and by your constant push on her to end her affair and setup NC with OM. AND...you attract her back with the positive changes you make in your marriage, and in yourself. It's TWO parts...carrot and stick.

I'll be honest...it sounds to me like you're still sitting in the same boat you were a month ago. You're still hurting, she's still in constant contact with OM. Did you ever get the 'proof' you needed to confront her with, or to take to your/her family to expose her with? What are you doing to meet her emotional needs? What improvements are you making in yourself? Have you tried dating her again?

What about the MC that you had started?

I think I have been doing everything being suggested. I have only exposed to one (former?) close friend of hers so far. That wise friend gave W a major talking to. As expected, W took that harshly and has exploded over it to me numerous times and cut off that friend. She makes all kinds of threats if I dare and expose to anyone else.

I have worked hard on the carrots too. I've been very positive with her, helping out around the house like never before, allowing her to come home and rest while I do most of the domestic/childcare chores. I have been on a diet and shed over 20 lbs. And I have been trying to date her as often as possible.

The dates so far have all turned into big flops. She spends hours each day with OM working on their project. And then, when she gets home, she heads straight to bed and tells me she is too tired to go out even if we have pre-arranged a date.

Occasionally (to show that she is trying), she has finally relented and I take her downtown (which she supposedly loves). But, the whole date she is distant and cold. Instead of her usual talkative self, she barely grunts responses or becomes outright hostile. If I ever try and hold her hand, she withdraws and walks ahead of me. The entire time she just wants to go back home.

We went to an MC (referred by her IC) who basically put me on a 2 week Plan A with only the carrot aspects. MC told me not to restrict W or track her in any way, but to romance her back. I have been trying this approach for the past 12 days and it's been horrible in every way. There is no positive change in W, and she has taken this new found freedom to actually increase her hours away with OM. In fact, this was the first weekend she spent a day with him!

After our next session with MC, there is no way I'm going to continue this "no stick" approach. But, I just don't see how I can woo her back when OM gets her during her peak hours each day and each time I try and reach out to her she either recoils in contempt or sees it as an act of aggression and reacts with hostility.

As far as proof: still inconclusive. The digital recorder only tells me that she is concealing: the amount of time spent together; the nature of their activities (more leisure than "work"); and the degree of her caring for OM (constantly bringing/sharing with him food, drinks, gifts,...laughing at his wit and wisdom, etc.). On the positive side, I haven't heard them discuss me or any indications of a PA.

So, you are right, I am just where I was a month ago. I’ve tried various approaches, but don’t seem to make any progress. In the meantime, my insides are eating me up as I try and put on a brave and positive front.

OK...first off, ditch the hack marriage counselor you've got now, and get one that does use and apply the FULL Marriage Builders toolkit.

Second...you've exposed to ONE person??? That makes not a bit of sense. You need to expose to EVERYONE who can influence your wife to end her affair.

Next...I thought she'd agreed to back off the work arrangement if you insisted on it? If so, INSIST ON IT!!!

Have you picked up "Not Just Friends" to read? If not, get it today. Let your wife see you reading it too, share it with her if she asks.

Don't accept this ploy anymore. If you know she's lying about time spent with OM, what they do, etc...confront her about it. Do NOT give her your source...simply say that you KNOW that there's a lot she's not telling you, let slip one or two small details that you could have gotten any number of ways, but let her think you know the whole story.

Seriously, STAND UP AND FIGHT. Make it clear that you're no longer willing to allow this 'working relationship' continue in the vein it has. Make it clear that either you're part of the WHOLE thing, or she needs to drop her deal with him. Let her know that what she's doing is destroying your marriage, and you're no longer willing to sit by and let her do that.

Keep meeting her EN's, keep working on making yourself the more attractive choice, keep the pressure on her to break it off with OM. This is ALL plan A.

Oh, and don't try 'various approaches'. Use ONE, and stick to it. MB has the best tools to deal with it. I really think you should learn those as fully as you can and use that method.

As I said, I will drop this MC after next session if she continues with this same ineffectual approach. The problem will be finding a good MC. I am considering the phone route, but am uneasy about it and highly doubt W will comply.

I exposed to the only person who I knew my W still respected. She has shrunk her social circle to only the OM and one GF that actually promotes the EA (probably due to her own troubled M). The only other potential person is W's sister, but she lives abroad and they talk rarely. I know that would be the only other possibility, because W herself keeps threatening me if I expose to anyone else -- and she is the only one ever mentioned.

Now that W is quitting her job, there are no co-workers and there are no other family members of any significance. It seems that W spends 80% of her time with OM, and then any of her free time with GF or speaking with her IC. There are just no other figures of any real consequence in her life these days.

Yes, W had initially offered to drop it right after d-day. But when I brought it up the next day, she went back and withdrew her offer.

I did get "Not Just Friends" and even got her to start reading it. She basically tossed it away after a couple chapters and angrily told me that it was filling my head with all sorts of crazy ideas and that nothing was going on.

Every time I confront her with disparities between her words and actions that I uncover, she will just get furious and start demanding to know how I got the info and screaming that I had better stop "stalking" her. She then brings this up any time we are together. That’s one of the reasons our ‘dates” turn into such unpleasantness. I try and keep it positive and happy, while she rants on about my stalking her and not respecting her privacy and freedom.

I am trying my best to stick to a Plan A (with the stick lifted for a 2 week hiatus but soon to be re-introduced). But, it is so very very hard.

Thanks for your continued advice and support.

Look...you need to deal with her anger. It's obviously her method of controlling you throughout all of this.

It's simple. Not easy, but simple.

Whenever she gets loud/angry, etc...you get calmer and quieter. The louder she gets, the quieter you get. Take it down to a stage whisper.

Whenever she goes on a tirade, quietly sit there and let her go on and on for as long as it takes. Don't say anything at all, don't sit there and get angry...listen, and let it roll off like a duck. Then once she winds down, sit quietly for a bit. Take your time, let your anger cool, think about your response, take a breath, and respond. NO anger, no heat. Quietly respond to what she says. Repeat back what she says, so she knows you've heard her occasionally.

It will force her to LISTEN to your responses, rather than just blow them off angrily. Pretty soon, she'll calm down, probably against her will.

When she insists that you tell her how you know...don't tell her anything. Tell her that HOW you know isn't the issue, and that you're not going to talk about it. What does matter is WHAT you know, and that's what you're going to talk about. Then stick to that.

When she goes off about how 'nothing is going on', tell her that it doesn't have to be physical to be damaging to your relationship. Gently ask her to think about what ALL of the stress for the last several weeks has been about...about that relationship. Its not you, its not anything else, its the fact that her relationship with him (work, or whatever) has taken precedence over her relationship with you...and that is NOT acceptable in ANY marriage.

DO NOT TALK ABOUT THE MARRIAGE OR RELATIONSHIP WHEN ON YOUR DATES!!! This is a HUGE no no!! Those dates should be fun. Even if she's withdrawn, angry, whatever...YOU have fun. It'll drive her nuts at first, and probably even force her to enjoy herself despite herself.

I have been following all of those responses! When she lets out one of her many tirades, I never respond. It drives her nuts. The louder she is ... the quieter I am. Until she is yelling at me to respond, which I only do after a long silent pause...and then very quietly.

I also, do not reveal my methods. Actually, a couple times I gave her misleading info to throw her off my real methods of snooping. But she has still managed to go pretty deep undercover, so it has gotten increasingly difficult to find evidence.

I have told her over and over about the harm of an EA. In fact, I even confided in her that I would almost prefer a PA that she was honest about than this deception. But, she still seems convinced that as long as there is no outright sex, then there is no A, and that all the problems with our M have "nothing at all to do with" her relationship with OM; and that I'm just using OM as a "scapegoat".

Finally, I NEVER talk about our M or relationship on our dates. My aim is to make it purely positive and upbeat, which is very difficult given her demeanor and body language.

In fact, on each date she keeps trying to bring up those things and I ALWAYS deflect them and move to positive or neutral subjects. It does drive her nuts, but, sadly, it has yet to push her to enjoy herself. Even when she starts to, she quickly catches herself and then seems to find something hostile to throw at me (angry at herself for slipping?), or just tells me how tired she is and needs to get to bed.

Anyways, I'm about to snap here. She just called me up. It was highly unusual, since the ONLY time she ever calls me is right after her IC session to check that I'm in the office and not following her, since OM lives around the corner from her IC.

The reason she called now was because she is convinced I called her today to track her. In fact, I haven't called her since that session with the MC, to prove that I'm not tracking her. But she was convinced that I had called today and made this unusual call to attack me for it.

It really highlighted how different her response is when OM calls her (it just lights up her life) and when she suspects that I called (anger and rage).

OUCH.

I don't have any advice to add but to ask a few questions...

When does your wife have the time to spend with the kids????

Can you tell me what your current plan that your going to stick to it, is?

I must say, you are a commited person to go through this ride more than once.

RMX, as much as this is eating away at me, it is our kids are the ones suffering the most. She is rarely home, and when she is, she is lying in bed exhausted. The kids constantly complain to me that "mommy is always going out" and "mommy never answers her cellphone".

Right now I'm trying out a Plan A -- carrot, and the stick will reappear soon. After that...I'm not sure yet.

You need to decide and soon how much longer you are going to allow the WS to dirupt and destroy your family.

Do NOT tolerate a WS in your midst. Look at how it is affecting your children. That s/b enough to infuriate you.

What is your POA (plan of action)?

You gotta get past plan A ASAP..... go read Love must be Tough by Dobson and consider getting into plan B.

JMHO,
L.