JL,

Currently I have the kids 4-5 nights each week, usually all day on Saturday, and take them to church on Sunday. Their mother loves them in spite of her selfish choices. She is attentive and loving to them. I do not deny your statements, I will evaluate them and see how they apply to me personally. I currently feel it would be more damaging to them to attempt to forcefully cut her out of their lives than to try to get along amicably w/ her. They need their mother. I do appreciate your honesty.

Listen to JL. This is dead on!

HMM -

I understand (to some degree) your position and what you are feeling/thinking. If I were to venture a guess, I'd say that you were even feeling that you're getting conflicting advice from different people here.

In reality, you're not. MM's story is all over the boards - I don't think it's in one place. Yes, he is recovering quite nicely now with his FWW. So are many other couples who have been hit with infedility.

The key here, that I think you might not be fully grasping, is that MM (to use one example) had completely let his wife go. As far as he was concerned, the only thing left to do was sign the papers.

All his hard work - making himself a better husband, father and man, coupled with a very, very, very dark Plan B during the divorce proceedings, laid the foundation for his wife to realize what she was throwing away.

In a nutshell, MM reached a point where he let go and let God.

You need to ask yourself the question that JL put to you. Are you getting in God's way?

Ask yourself - how can you best serve God, your marriage, your children and yourself?

You can accept that your marriage is over and still be open to reconciliation (in terms of a new, better marriage). To stay where you are is dangerous - to you and your kids. At some point, if it hasn't already, resentment will build to the point where it begins to consume you.

How long you can tolerate the situation as is is entirely up to you. But do not be afraid to take strong action (out of love, not out of vindictiveness) - even if it seems counter-intuitive. You don't have to divorce her tomorrow, or the next day. But going into a dark Plan B and shielding the kids as much as possible will preserve your love for your wife, and give God as much elbow room as He needs to work.

A dear friend of my wife and me once told me that it took the loss of her marriage, and being completely on her own with no support network to bring her fully to God. That may very well be the case for your wife as well.

Going to Plan B does not mean your marriage is over. Taking a strong stand for yourself, your marriage and your family does not mean your marriage is over.

It is terrifying - no one here will deny that. But after years of this, perhaps it's time to try something new?

Just some things to think about, HMM. We'll support you however we can.

How do you reconcile this...

you say you are the spiritual leader,
and yet you condone (stay friendly) with a person of low moral character.

If you truly are the leader; teach them that there are CONSEQUENCES to bad choices and bad behavior.

HMM...

I keep hearing Mortarman mentioned over and over in your thread thus far and comparisons being drawn...One thing that has been overlooked here is that MM's wife had ONE OM...That is dealing with an addiction to only ONE person...Your WW has proven herself to a serial cheater which is an entirely different animal...Your WW is NOT addicted to one particular person, but rather she is addicted to AFFAIRS...I believe that is not just an abberation of character but instead a giant character issue...I think that is something that you should definately take into consideration...Dr. Harley talks of recovery being an altogether different ballgame with this type person...It is not just a matter of NC with one OM...It means essentially NC with all members of the opposite sex-quite a tall order, IMO...Some of the most extraordinary measures that I've ever heard must be used in the event of recovery with someone of your wife's nature...The two of you would essentially need to be together around the clock...Work, play, sleep, the WHOLE nine...

Also, Mr. W and I know Mortarman personally and I can tell you that he was NEVER a doormat for his wife...He most certainly allowed the consequences of her choices to fall squarely on her shoulders where they belonged...Since you appear to have taken such a keen interest in his story, if I were you I'd add his name to your thread title and let him weigh in for you...I would also recommend that you call into Dr. Harley's radio show and get his very valuable input on your situation...

Blessings,

Mrs. W

Howmuch,

I think you are miss understanding me a bit. I did not say cut their mother out of their lives. I am saying the uncertainty of "will Mom come back home", "if she does will she leave again", "I am not sure where Dad is in all of this", "I am not sure...of anything". That is the uncertainty I am talking about.

Divorcing your W if it comes to that will NOT solve all of the problems your children face. But, they will know when they come to YOUR home, you will be there and it will be calm, the drama will be minimal, Mom won't be calling or whatever she does. Dad might even learn a few things and become a happy man again. Now that is something you could model: fight like crazy for your marriage, endure and raise your youngest, and then having perserved for years you let go and build a life of your own and become a happy man.

NOW that is a model for them to see. I would bet good money your children love their mother, but KNOW that she has problems. They may even know and understand this better than you do. You don't want your sons learning that if someone kicks them, that they just lie there and allow the kicking to continue. You may not want them to get up and kick back, but you surely would want them to get up and walk off.

Your focus on keeping the marriage at ALL costs as a good model is flawed.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Well, I just had a conversation w/ her on the phone where I failed miserably. I began talking about the relationship and trying to make her feel conviction about her affair. She became angry, and by the time I said, "I don't want him around the kids." She said,"that's not any of your concern." I'm sick. I know. Kick me... tell me to get my head out of my a$$ and become a man. I know I need to be in that place of surrender. Give up my marriage. Can someone tell me how?

howmuchmore,

Just as JL and the bigkahuna have been blunt with you, so will I. I know where you are coming from. I am a believer and my exH was not. Now, I know that you think your WW is a believer and that is not mine or yours to judge--what IS ours to tell is that right now, she is not ACTING like a believer! She is directly doing what she knows is wrong, and she has been confronted on it on MANY occasions...by you, by members of the church, by the elders, and by the pastor. It is CLEAR that she is fully aware that what she is doing is SINFUL and she is choosing to disobey God anyway. That is the reality of right now...today.

Here is the other reality of today. It seems to me that you are afraid to step out of God's way and let Him have her--and you are afraid to let God have your M. You want to TEACH her. You want to win her back. But from what I can observe, you just will not give her to God or take your hands off and give God your M. To make a long story short, I believe you are afraid to possibly get a divorce. Now, I can COMPLETELY understand that fear because I felt it too. If you remember, I tried for FOUR YEARS to get my WH to stop his multiple A's and return to our M recommitted and reconciled. He just would not!!! He hardened his heart, continued having EA's, PA's, cybersex, and sexual email relationships with strangers.

howmuchmore, it is my opinion that you are afraid to completely let God have her...to completely get out of HIS way and let Him deal with His daughter in HIS time...and to completely take your hands off of her. Did you know that if you just politely walked away and never spoke to her again, that God would be WITH HER and work in her life HIMSELF? You are a very valuable son of God and from your heart has sprung a well-spring of life for people to whom you have ministered in your church...there is no doubt about this whatsoever!...and yet, God is thoroughly capable of softening your WW's heart and working a miracle COMPLETELY WITHOUT YOU. Here's the funny thing. I seriously suspect that you know this.

I personally think that the real problem is that you are afraid that you might end up divorced. What will that do to you? What kind of ministry could you have then? Would you be kicked out of your church? What will happen to you if you are NO LONGER MARRIED!!?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Those are the fears that burn your soul, I think. And let me tell you something one believer to another. God brought ME through the Valley of the Shadow of Death--and He brought my current DH through the Valley of the Shadow of Death--and He has on the occasion allowed divorce to happen to some people. Is it His best and ideal? NO!! Not just no, but NO!!!! But sometimes He does allow it to happen...and He will still be with you every step of the way.

I remember when my exH and I were in the process of divorcing, and I would cry out to God, "Why are You allowing this to happen to me?" and I suspected that maybe He was trying to teach my WH something. For the longest time, I thought it was all about him (WH) and my job was supposed to be to just sit and wait it out. NOPE. I was wrong. God wants to teach US a lesson just as badly as He wants to teach them. He wants US to be closer to HIM and more intimate with HIM, and sometimes He will allow a D to teach US...the ones who are supposedly "the good spouse." In my instance, I learned MANY things!!! Like, when the Master wants to purify a piece of gold, HE PUTS IT IN THE FIRE. The piece of gold completely loses its former shape and becomes liquid. It HURTS to be in the fire!! But the Master knows better, and He can tell when the piece of gold is purified when He sees HIS FACE reflecting in the gold. Then He can reshape it into the new design that He has for it.

howmuchmore, I believe this may not be about your WW at all. I believe this lesson is for you...to teach you to give up EVERYTHING to God every day, and allow Him to control your comings and your goings. I believe this lesson is for you to learn that you CAN depend on God to be there with you through the painful times, and to let HIM move in her life when HE is ready...not when you want Him to!

Soooooo...I have an assignment for you. You assignment, should you choose to accept it, is to read the entire book of Psalms, and in your journal, write down every promise where God promises to defeat our enemies and be with us. You assignment is to completely give your WW to God, trusting HIM that He will deal with her and move in her life when HE is ready, and trusting that it will not be through you. He will use someone else. Finally, your assignment is to look at, study, and become thoroughly familiar with Plan B. Read everything on this site about the Plan B letter and about Plan B. Read everything in the books about Plan B. And begin to prepare to enter a silent Plan B next week.

You need to let GOD have her!! And God may require of you that you walk through the Valley of the Shadow of walk with you and hear your cries. I guarantee you! Your job, right now, is to back off, end all contact with your WW, and let God walk you where HE wills!!

Your faithful sister in Christ,



CJ

WOW, That was an AMAZING post CJ...Howmuchmore, I hope you were as moved by it as I was...It is EXCELLENT advice...

Mrs. W

CJ -

Wow! I second what Mrs W said! Incredible <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Ooohhhh....can I do that assignment too? It sounds like a great excerise in studying God's Word.

HMM -

I wanted to repost something that MM posted to you on the other thread:


I added emphasis to the first two because they are the same things that CJ is pointing out to you above. In a way (and MM please correct me if I'm wrong on this), MM didn't win his wife back - God brought her back to him. What MM did was lay the foundation for her return to their marriage, by submitting himself to the Lord's will, and trusting in God no matter what was going on or how hard and bleak it seemed.

To give you something from my personal experience, at the beginning of my mess, one of my oft-repeated prayers was that God would restore both myself and my wife to Him, and through Him to each other.

Remember Jeremiah 29:11, HMM. God knows the things He has in store for us, and they are good things.

CJ, I am also touched by your post. You really delivered your message in an understandable way. I guess I'm just frustrated and want things to be my way. Meet my ideal.

I didn't find the plan B letter. Where is that located?

I just was outside swinging on the swingset with my 4 and 10 yo's, and times like that are when this doesn't seem real, and I don't want to accept it. It feels as though she should be here with us. I want her to be. I'm sorry if I sound whipped. I truly just love her and wanted to spend the rest of my life w/ her, flaws and all. It hurts in a deep place that only some of you can identify with. I don't want it anymore. I want things to be restored.

I know I sound like a spoiled brat.

HowMuch,

Reread what CJ has posted to you. I doubt that anyone could have said what we have all be trying to say as eloquently or completely as she has said it.

You said
In line with what CJ just told you, do you see what you are missing. You are outside swinging with two of your children, on a nice day. And yet you crave what you don't have rather than value what you do have. Did you notice their faces? Did you hear the giggles? Did the birds sing? How is your health? How did the air smell? Did you notice those children looking at you?

What your W should or should not do is NOT for you to determine or examine really. What you should be feeling is eternal thankfulness for those children and the opportunity to swing with them and watch them play. Your W missed it, she will miss more.

And if your children spend time with her, what will they miss? Will it be your smiling at them? Will it be you laughing with them? Will it be the love they can see coming from you? Not if you are focused on what you cannot control.

You have been blessed and you have before you an amazing opportunity, and yet where is your mind? CJ is right, God has a lot to teach you and it probably cannot happen with your W in your life right now.

Things will NOT be restored....EVER. Time moves on, things change, people grow, people decay, people change for better or worse. You can control many things in your life fundamental among them whether you grow or not, whether you are good man or not, but you cannot stop change. HowMuch, there will be no restoration, just change.

God Bless,

JL

Healing Bird,
Thanks for the reminder. I confess that when I take my eyes off God and stop relying on Jesus as my sole unwavering source, things begin to go sour. I've not been spending as much (none since Saturday) time in the word, and it makes a difference. I'm going to follow CJ's assignment to the letter. Thank you all for sincere concerned support.

This link will describe for you further what Plan A and Plan B are...and how to do them:What are Plan A and Plan B?

An example of the Plan B letter is found in the book Surviving an Affair, pg. 75-83.

I can summarize for you. The Plan B letter is meant to be short and to the point, and yet be maybe the last love letter you will send to her. In summary, it says that you love her and want to honor the marriage covenant that you two have entered, but that you can not do that as long as the OP is in her life. You tell her that you realize that you contributed to creating an environment in which she chose to stray by XYZ (and you list some of your Love Busters here). Some folks will then mention how they plan to deal with those Love Busters...some folks might mention the ways in which they have changed and how those changes came about. The point, though, is that you own your own stuff...this wasn't done in a vacuum although it would seem she has a personality disorder of some sort or another. The next paragraph basically restates that you want to honor the covenant but that you can not do that while the OP is in her life. Then you tell her that because of the pain and damage she is choosing to cause to both you and the children, that you have to ask her for no contact until the OP is gone. Then you outline for her the things that you require that she will need to do in order to restore the M. You give her specific actions that she can do, so that she has a roadmap and knows how to "fix it." Finally, you tell her who your intermediary is and how to contact that person.

An intermediary is sort of a "go between." It's usually a friend, relative or pastor who is willing to receive her emails and phone calls and sort of stand in the gap for you. Here's why. When a BS goes into Plan B, the intention is to save the M and preserve whatever love the BS still has for the WS. In Plan B, the BS forces the WS to have all their ENs met only by the OP--and as you know, since A's are based in fantasy, the OP is incapable of meeting the ENs in the way that the WS thinks they will. However, the WS is not going to like this and in fact, will probably fight to continue to have some of their ENs met by the BS. Often, as you know, a WS will spout a LOT of very foggy, very vile, very hateful, very spiteful stuff. The affect of these words, even if the BS knows they're fog, is that they hurt and damage the BS and drain what little bit of love is left for the WS. The intermediary would get the foggy, demanding, entitled email or phone call and rather than forwarding all that hurtful stuff, they would just pass along factual stuff.

For example, the intermediary receives from the WS: "I can have the kids any time I want to! I'm their mother too. Just because I am finally doing something for myself instead of wasting away miserably in our waste of a M doesn't mean you can boss me around or withhold my kids from me! I will take them Mon. night after school or I will call the cops!!" The intermediary would forward to the BS: "WS would like the kids after school on Monday, and is being fairly demanding about it. Does this work for you?" When the BS says it does not work because the youngest has gymnastics then, but after gymnastics the kids can go to WS's for dinner, the intermediary would then respond (to the foggy, threatening email): "Monday after school does not work because YD has gymnastics. You can pick them up at gymnastics though. Does that work for you?"

See how that protects YOUR heart from the continuous foggy, hurtful spite? See how that keeps the WS from having ANY EN's met by the BS??

Sooooooo...does that answer your questions?



--CJ

I hate it. Period. But you are right. These are the exact words my pastor has spoken to me. Frankly, in my human-ness I don't want it. I am so co-dependent that I struggle with this. Just being honest.



Please explain this to me. I've always believed that my God is a God of restoration and healing. I've believed that it is His heart to restore marriages.

CJ...

Yes, I understand, but you said: See how that keeps the WS from having ANY EN's met by the BS??

I don't get this. I will go reread the plan B stuff and I'll try to find the book tomorrow.

I must go watch AI with my kids (tradition) and I'll check in after that.

Howmuch,

I cannot tell you what is in God's heart and you don't know either. What I DO KNOW is we are called upon to learn, grow, improve, and be good stewards of those gifts given us. Oh! and one last little thing...we are called upon to follow our faith. Ye of little faith, will founder isn't that right?

Change is the nature of things and restoration doesn't mean what you think it does. Spouses die, are they restored? Not in this lifetime. Children die, are they restored? Not in this lifetime.

HowMuch, your co-dependence facinates me. You are rearing a child from one of your W's affairs. You are rearing your other children. You W is of ****ing another man and living away from you. Other than your God, who do you need to be dependent on? Why do you need to be dependent on ther? It seems to me you are fully capable of being the parent these children need. It seems to me you have much more strength than you realize. It seems to me that you need to stop and look at your blessing and gifts my friend for clearly you have many.

A man who does not see his blessings and gift, is a man that is missing something fundamental in his faith. When you do CJ's homework assignment, you will begin to see your blessing and gifts my friend.

God Bless,

JL

LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Oh boy! I know it sounds like I am this old, wise, mature chick, but I can sure identify with ya, HMM. "I HATE IT." Oh, God, YES!! That is EGG ZACK LEE how I felt too!! Plus mad at God for having to teach me THAT WAY and mad that it looked like my WS was getting away with it scott-free...

And you know what? When JL says that things won't be restored, I think what he's referring to is our tendency to want it to "be the way it used to be." From this point forward, what does or does not happen with your WW will be something entirely different and new. YOU will have changed and grown. Maybe she will too--maybe not. But it will never "be the way it used to be." In my personal opinion, I believe that mahy have been an illusion...and as much as you don't want to (which I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND, btw), it's time to let go of that illusion of "the way things used to be" and embrace reality.

I suggest working on the assignment. I suggest feeling the difficulty of disentangling from the co-dependency and coming here to struggle with it--rather than avoiding it. I suggest beginning your own thread that's sort of a journal. And most of all, start to turn to God for all your needs. HE is the love of your life and the author of love...not your spouse. HE is the companion, friend, and help-meet that every man needs. Not some lady!! I know it's hard but practice turning to Him for the needs you would usually turn to your spouse for.

I'm sorry this hurt so much...but bear in mind, you are not alone.

Your sis in Christ,


CJ