Okay, I have been putting off this post for a few weeks now because I know the reactions that I will get. But I just have to vent. H is still conflict avoider, discusses nothing with me, makes major decisions that effects both of us without consulting me, and then doesn't understand I get upset. We are not a team. We had an argument over money, and he listed everything that he has paid for, so basically he is keeping score!!! He never validates my anger by saying that I am having a childish tantrum! I remember someone saying on the board how OP wanted her to love him, as if that was his goal. Well I am starting to believe that that was my H goal. For me to love him and now that he has that, he has done his accomplishment and doesn't know how or doesn't want to give me love back. I am truly FED UP! The routine usually goes like this. We argue, don't speak for a few days or even weeks, then when he is horny we have sex and act like nothing has happened! We were good for about a month with the communication, only after a HUGE blow-out with the police involved and everything. Now it is back to me the same old, same old. I have a friend that I have known for years, and he is there trying to help me through this. And as I am sure you all know, now the attraction and feelings are coming up between us. We have discussed it and we are both scared of what we are feeling. I am so confused and scared. Now I TRULY understand how my H strayed. He was getting everything he yearned for from someone else. And now I am getting my emotional needs met from someone else. And the sexual attration is beyond words!! I haven't felt so alive in years!!! Nothing has happened, but temptation is so hard to ignore, especially when the person you want it from is not showing you any kind of love or respect. I am not religious at all, so please don't tell me to go pray or go talk to a preacher! I am always the one that has to go to my H to say we need to talk things out, but now i feel as if I am banging my head against a brick wall, and the only outcome I get now is a headache. I don't want to try anymore! I am starting to HATE my H! Hate him for not realizing what is happening, hate him for not realizing that his noncommunication is destroying us. Hating him for not showing that he actually cares what happens to us. Just hating him!

Whoa!<P>Are you sure you're not feeling a bit of REVENGE FANTASY HERE????<P>I mean, isn't this convenient. Here you are, you know this other fellow for a long time, and now, BOOM! Attraction!<P>You know what the drill is. You already know what you have to do. Either choose the "friend", but get out of the marriage FIRST, or work on the marriage, and tell "friend" that his presence is not helping you.<P>If "friend" is also married, it's a no-brainer.

as a "bretrayed" i first want to thank you for giving me an idea as to what my wife is feeling or has felt as this situation goes on...all i can tell you, and consider the source, is DON'T! I can give you all kinds of reasons why you shouldn't..but i won't i aint here to preach or judge. i respect your courage in posting that and i hope others can help where i cannot. just thank you for helping me realize that what my part was in this affair..

Trying,<P> I would not recommend going ANY further with your friend. I was in a similar situation and Steve Harley strongly advised me to no longer discuss my marriage with ANYONE from the opposite sex. If you have an afair, which would be so easy to do, you will only add misery to what you already feel. It might seem good now, but the betrayel will eventually get you. Do you have a female friend to confide in? If you want a relationship with this man, don't start it until you are finished (i.e. divorced) with the one you have now. Remember the way your h's behaviour made you feel. Don't prepetuate it further! <BR> I know this sounds strong, but I don't want anyone else to feel the pain that my w has made me feel. Post on here often, we know what your going through. BTW, my wife is not actively working on our marriage (she still talks to the om via e-mail), so I am doing it alone, but it is starting to work. Keep your head up! You are not alone and you can make it!<P>dzrt

Please don't go further with your "friend." Maybe its best that you don't even see him for awhile, since seeing him will only compound your troubles. Sure, an affair may feel good now, but the outcome will be devastating and may haunt you for the rest of your life. Since your H betrayed you, you already know the pain it will cause.<P>Post here, especially when you get that urge to be with the OP. Is this something that you can discuss with your H?

I don't suggest pursuing anything with the OM...you will only get hurt, believe me I know.<P>Could you talk to your husband about how you're feeling. Maybe he doesn't know the extent of your lonliness and frustration.

Hi trying,<P>Yeah, what they said!<P>Stay away from your friend, for both your sakes. It sounds like it's starting to already become an emotional affair. I say this because of your stated sexual attraction to him. <P>Also, talk to your husband about how much you've been distanced and how it's been leading you to feel like having your own affair. Do you think that would wake him up?<P>Just remember one thing - having another relationship while you are married is hell on earth. It really is. It doesn't matter how bad your relationship with your husband is, any affair will just make things 10 times worse.<P>--andy

No the friend is not married or involved. It is funny in a way, because if he was i wouldn't want to subject that kind of pain on her, but my thoughts and feelings don't seem to have me worried about hurting H. I thought maybe it was a revenge thing also, but believe me, i would have been done that when I found out. "TALK TO MY HUSBAND"! Yeah right, the first thing he does when I try to bring up anything of what I am feeling or what WE need to work on, is a defensive attitude and then it ends with him saying "You are just *****ing" or "throwing a tantrum"!! He is pushing me so far away that I feel like the only person who cares about my happiness is the OM. I have read ALL of the stuff Dr. Harley has put here about how to end it, but I am at the point, where I am saying "Don't I deserve to be loved my a man that makes me feel wanted and needed and desirable". I know that I am a beautiful woman on the inside and out, and I know that I may not always say the things that are upsetting me in the proper way, but I TRY, believe me I TRY! We just had another argument via email! He is telling me everything he has paid for and what I have not done!! WHY THE HELL IS HE KEEPING SCORE IN A SO-CALLED MARRIAGE! I know he needs to feel appreciated, but how can someone be expected to give something when they don't give themselves. I have been staying out late, (yes with OM and another friend, I haven't put myself in a position to be alone with him). My H has not said a thing. YES, I want him to question me, show SOME KIND OF EMOTION THAT HE ACTUALLY CARES!! Boy, if i would have had these feelings a few years ago, I would have definitely understood how vulnerable one is to be so easily swayed to another's arms.

OH yeah...and H recently took me off access to his computer, so I can not connect to the internet!!! AIN"T THAT A B$TCH!! Talk about petty, so now I can't even come to MB when at home!!

I think your husband is keeping score because he feels defensive and unappreciated. It sounds to me like you are saying, "What you are doing isn't good enough, I want more!" If that's true, I would feel pretty defensive too. I would probably start making lists of everything I did and asking "Doesn't this count for anything? How much more can you expect of me?"<P>The OM is not helping you out of great concern for you. He is manipulating you for the purpose of ending your marriage. I don't know any men who are willing to talk with a married woman about their relationship with their husband. First, it's against the "code of honor" to find out things like that about someone else's problems. Even if you don't know them. You only ever want to get the story from the guy. This guy you are talking to is just sniffing for ways to pry his way in there and bed you.<P>I don't know any married women who would talk to a man about their relationship problems either. Anyone who does that is looking to cheat or get out. First, another man probably can't understand things from your point of view, so he couldn't be that helpful. Second, there is too much risk of hidden motives. If you were talking to your sister, you could be relatively certain that she has nothing to gain by listening to you. When you talk to another man, he could very well have something to gain.<P>I think you and your husband are very nearly done. Maybe go see a lawyer so the relationship with the OM doesn't have to be an affair when it gets going. That's about all the advice I have.<BR>

Gee nonplused, thanks for the ray of sunshine!! But I do understand what you are saying. I have even said to him, that he acts that I am attacking him personally when I try to TALK about something. He is so busy trying to think of a comeback to what I am saying that he is NOT listening, he is just making sure he can 1 up me! As far as the OM talking to me about my problems, he does not say leave your H, he try's to think of ways that I can approach H without it turning into an arguement. Don't get me wrong, I have tried to do everything in my power to give my H respect and consideration, but this is a man that plans on building a house, BUT decides to tell me after he has discussed it with others!! No input from me, no "what do you think". How is a person going to decide what I am going to do with MY life with other people and then when it finally gets back to me, I am the last to know. That is what I mean, I feel like I am an afterthought in his life!

Hello Trying2_4give<P> My wife and i have just gone threw this we did not have fights or arguments but i was not there to share her feelings, Thoughts & concerns. She let me know that she had felt like i to had abandond her. I had know idea that i was doing that. I was very happy and i nlove with her but she could not find a way to tell me shee needed theese things. about 1 or 2 months ago she found someone like you did that made her feel special and loved. after finding out that she just wanted to be with someone else i have opened my eyes. I am working very hard on filling those needs and hoping that i can. Please give you h the same chance befor gonig any further. Just me thinking that she could talk about our problems with some one else and not me has been devistating. so please tell him the truth now so he knows that is truly what you need from him. If i would have been told you eather shape up or ship out things would have been alot better 6 months ago. I have changed drasticaly in 3 weeks and am working hard ever day to learn to be the husband my wife need and can trust with her feelings. Even the bad ones Good luck & be patient

Hello Trying2_4give<P> My wife and i have just gone threw this we did not have fights or arguments but i was not there to share her feelings, Thoughts & concerns. She let me know that she had felt like i to had abandond her. I had know idea that i was doing that. I was very happy and i nlove with her but she could not find a way to tell me shee needed theese things. about 1 or 2 months ago she found someone like you did that made her feel special and loved. after finding out that she just wanted to be with someone else i have opened my eyes. I am working very hard on filling those needs and hoping that i can. Please give you h the same chance befor gonig any further. Just me thinking that she could talk about our problems with some one else and not me has been devistating. so please tell him the truth now so he knows that is truly what you need from him. If i would have been told you eather shape up or ship out things would have been alot better 6 months ago. I have changed drasticaly in 3 weeks and am working hard ever day to learn to be the husband my wife need and can trust with her feelings. Even the bad ones Good luck & be patient

"Ray of sunshine"?? Well, obviously not. I wasn't trying to be excessively hurtful, and I hope I wasn't. I apologize if I was.<P>It is clear that you and your husband have some serious communication problems. These are things the two of you need to sort out with each other, or with a counselor.<P>The presence of the OM as a source of confidence or emotional support for you will not be of any help. I think it will eventually end your marriage. I ask myself one question. Why in the heck does this guy care? Why would he be listening to all your problems with your husband when he could be watching "Sports Desk" with a cold beer? Something is motivating him. It may even be that he cares about you. But that he wants to see you and your husband "ok"? I think you have to concede on this one. That is not his purpose. He means to make you feel better and eventually he will try to do that by offering you an alternative relationship.<P>I also ask myself why you think he helps. Does he really offer you a lot of good, practical advice on how to communicate more effectively with your husband? Or does he offer validation and confirmation of your own point of view? By talking to him, are you able to avoid a confrontation with your husband yourself, thereby leaving one more issue unresolved?<P>If he were helping, really helping, then you would be getting less mad at your husband and communicating more clearly with him. That's normally what happens when people see counselors, although sometimes it's a long drawn out process. But instead we find that you are even more angry now that you have an "OP". I am forced to conclude that he is merely validating your own feelings and manipulating you in to an even less reconciliatory stance towards your husband.<P>My advice is loose the OM while you can and see a counselor, or get a lawyer.<P><BR>

When I tell you this, I tell you as an expert on the matter. Do not, I repeat do not have sex or any intamacy with this OM. If you want to end your marriage, then go ahead. If you want to be with your H, Then don't. I did what you are talking about and my W has used that as an excuse to call it quits. Don't be a fool in thinking that will make you feel better. It won't, Trust me, I know.<P>------------------<BR>Rutger......One day at a time.<P><BR>

You have been around here long enough to recognize the signs. Back off now while you still have a chance. Ask the "friend" to please give you some space, or better yet, when he drops by or calls just tell him you are busy or have plans with your H. <P>As for the situation with your H. You really do need to get his attention! Want me to write a story for you? Seriously, have you tried to write to him about the concerns and fears you are having. He can't argue or 'come back' if he reads the letter at work when you are not around. <P>Or turn the table on him. He expects you to be "needy" right now, to express your unhappiness, etc. because you have been trying to tell him these concerns all along. How about throwing him a curve ball and writing him a "respect" letter. I have one of those in my files too, and I really got some good results from that, both in my own thinking and in the reactions from my H.<BR>I can drag that out for you, too if you want. Or, instead of worrying about how to confront him about these things, sit down and spend the time trying to write about them. It is liberating, really.<p>[This message has been edited by Pilot's wife (edited October 08, 1999).]

Trying2_4give,<P>I'm sorry you have reached such a vulnerable frustrated state.<P>Have you considered having a group of songwriters follow you around making notes...because it sounds like something right out of a jukebox.<P>You will probably give in and have a full blown affair because it's the quick and easy answer to kill the pain...that's understandable But as you well know, "the path of least resistance takes you straight down to the bottom."<P>Your husband had an affair in the past to be the hero to someone again. Now he's the zero. Why have you stayed with him so far? How many years has it been since he was a hero in your eyes?<P>HOW MANY?!?!? Gee whiz honey.<P>That's why he won't cooperate. I guarantee you that he talked with his lover, he communicated with her like you wouldn't believe. She probably wasn't as pretty as you are either. But she made him feel like a winner instead of someone loaded to the gills with flaws and shortcomings.<P>A hero responds to a cry for help, a zero sees it as just another assault on his inadequacies and fights backs in wounded self-defense.<P>Tragic but true. He doesn't believe that you really believe in him, especially after his unfaithfulness. How can you support someone who doesn't believe in you anymore?<P>How can you stay with a man who slams the door in your face emotionally? It's a tough situation. The walls start to come down when his ego is revived and your sense of being cared for and attended to is met.<P>You are both still in the game by choice. <BR>Why not call a truce and start the long process of rebuilding your original love?<BR>

Thank you, Nonplused,Rutger, Cockhold and PilotsWife. You all have given me good, sane advice. PilotsWife, what exactly is a "respect letter"? I would be willing to try that one. Cockhold, thank you for the wake-up about the Hero scenerio, I think that is exactly what it is. We both are still together for a reason (not just the kids). I hate to keep whining about it, but after someone keeps having the door of communication slammed in their face time and time again it is easier to go to the person who is doing everything you need right now. I think the attraction between OP and I is due to the fact we both seem broken hearted...me with H void of emotions and communication and OP is getting over a break up. Maybe it is an ego thing. But no, i do not want to be the reason why my marriage ends, but I don't want to be a married person, but feeling like I don't have a husband. Action needs to be taken and I know I have to be the one AGAIN to try to work this out. I am just starting to feel empty and that I am the one continually trying to make things better. It makes me feel as though I am the only one that cares if our marriage lasts. Thank you all again for being there.