Hi All. I've never posted anything like this before but I just need some help as I am feeling devastated. Our background is that my wife and I are in our mid-30s and have been married almost 7 years and we dated for 4 years before that (living together part of that time). No kids, one dog. We spend a lot of time together and have lots of common interests (running, biking, etc.). I honestly don't think we've ever had a major fight and we're always very respectful of each other and very affectionate (hand holding, hugging, etc.). When we first started dating I thought we were pretty passionate and we were intimate fairly regularly. Then after a couple of years (to the best of my recollection) she seemed much less interested in sex. I simply thought maybe it was just a hormonal change for her and I tried to adjust. I tried not to push sex on her and just let it happen when it happen. On average I'd say we were (are) sexually intimate once a month. Now, earlier this week she was distant and sad. After giving her lots of support and encouraging her to talk honestly with me she has told me that she never really found me attractive sexually/intimately. She says it's very hard for her to tell me this and she doesn't want to hurt me. It's not a sexual performance thing she says and we're both able to acheive orgasm during our times together. She says this whole time we've been together she's felt no "real" passion. She says she is a very sexual person (for a long time now I thought the opposite) and now she can't deny it any longer. She wants something more and she wants to be more sexually active and passionate. She just doesn't feel it with me. The tough part is that in every other aspect of our lives she says she's totally happy and she loves the non-intimate time we spend together. I asked her why this came to a head all of a sudden now and she was honest with me. She told me how she met a man during a work event last weekend (my wife organizes outdoor events). He was a volunteer for the weekend event at her work. My wife was with other colleagues of hers during most of the weekend event and I was with her too for part of it. She says she never really talked much with this man and they didn't even flirt but she felt there was a connection from the moment she saw him (at the beginning of the weekend). Finally at the end of the weekend of work she offered to take him to the airport for his flight home. That is when she said they talked and shared feelings and he told her he felt the same way about her. He is engaged but says he, too, does not feel a "passion" for his fiance. My wife and this man can't have spent more than a couple of hours together in total but she said she felt an instant connection with him. He suggested that he could get a later flight so that they could spend some more time together but my wife told him that she didn't want to do anything scandalous. She did admit that at the airport they hugged and held hands and wondered about what it would be like had their paths crossed earlier. My wife has since talked on the phone with him a couple of times but says she is done with that and wants to focus on her and me. I feel totally emotionally betrayed because of this connection she feels with this man and because she never told me earlier that she was feeling sexually/passionately unfulfilled. I am worried that there is no way to make our marriage work. If we stay together I have live with the fact that she feels no passion between us and if she pursues her passion we won't be together. She has told me that this is not about this man in particular but that it's just the bigger concept of wanting that passion. She said she has had frequent sexual dreams about other men (no one in particular) and feels bad and guilty about that. We've made arrangements to see a marriage counselor next week but I am skeptical that there will be much to offer. It's one thing for a couple to learn ways to rekindle a dying flame but how can my wife rekindle a flame that apparently never was? I don't believe she can "learn" or choose to be passionate about me when that is not what she is feeling. Sorry for the long post I just thought all the info was important and I haven't read of any similar cases in the discussion groups here. Any insight/suggestions/support would be appreciated.

The "never passion" part is typical fog talk...rewriting history...depression kind of thing. Of course she was madly in love with you at times in your relationship. ALL walkaway spouses say this same thing...they do this to convince themselves they need to walk away and to justify their actions. If you read this message board you will see this same thing over and over and over again...every one of them says this. Do not kick yourself...do not give up...it is fog talk.

Go to marriage counseling, do everything you can to keep her from speaking to this other man, get the book his needs her needs...you can rekindle the flame...if you can afford it do a phone counseling session with Dr Harvey from this web site.

The following is my opinion...others on here may disagree: I think women NEED drama or excitement or fights...or anything to keep their blood flowing...they need you to challenge them. As a man we do not like drama...we like stability...we do not mind routine...all of this kills most women...they get bored and this is when they become susceptible to an affair. When someone comes along that reawakens these emotions they immediately start thinking soul mate...they forget when you were that man in their life...they feel alive again...it is a VERY STRONG draw for them and they start doing anything and everything to get more...it is like a drug.

The key is to find out how you can reawaken those feelings in your wife. Hopefully all of this has occurred early enough and she has not gotten too attached or too far down the path of desiring to leave or have an affair.

Just do not give up...the flame was there and it can be rekindled. Don't worry your story is not unique...you just need to learn some new skills and start meeting some of her needs and you can get through this.

Be sure to check out the emotional needs questionnaire. It sounds like some of her needs are not being met. It is somewhat unusual to fall madly in love in 2 days.

i agree w/ much of what this poster says...i just don't think it is a man/woman thing...more of a personality type.
i know many men who live for drama and SOMETHING NEW.

it does sound like your wife was looking for something NEW to awaken her dulled senses.
i beleive you can work on your reltionship and save your marriage.

I'll take this one step further and say that it is not a man/woman thing, nor is it that some men also thrive on drama. I know that a man or a woman who is very satisfied with stability and who truly does not look for drama in their every day life can get caught up and begin enjoying the drama within an emotional or emotional/physical affair.
Lake

Thanks for all the posts. My wife is generally not much of a drama queen but I could see the allure for her of being captivated by a new man. Even though she says it's not about this man. She says it's about something bigger and for as long as she can remember (as long as she's known me) she has not been attracted to me in "that way." Still, meeting this new man seemed to be the catalyst that pushed her over the edge. I hope this is fog talk but she seems convinced and seems to say it with sincerity. She says she is very sad about it but believes it to be the truth. Maybe it is? I am not totally sure myself anymore.

Even if it is true and she's not attracted to me like that is that a reason to end a marriage? In some ways I say yes. She says her sexuality is very important to her and she's been holding back for so long now. And sexuality is important to me too and I'd love to explore more and take things to another level with her. Then again in other ways I say no...this isn't reason enough to end a marriage. We have so much else that seems to be right (although it's all getting pretty muddled pretty fast). But is it fair to her and me to compromise our sexual feelings for the sake of the other things we have/had going: a great friendship, common interests, stability, etc.?

You can have a great relationship with each other if you are both willing to work on it. There is no reason why you each can't change behaviors to create passion within your marriage. You have already started out doing some things you need to do by disclosing information to each other that will help you create the intimacy and then the passion that you both want. Read this website. It is based on solid information that can give you a sound plan to build your marriage.

It is the only site I have seen that stays so much in step with the concepts within applied behavioral analysis.

She is in a fog...rely on your own knowledge of the history you share with her. But use this as an opportunity to create the marriage that you both want...with each other.
Lake
Lake

GAM - I'm sure this has to be very difficult. It is hard to imagine a more disheartening revelation coming out of the blue from your spouse. During my wife's brief EA she said similar things about the origin of our relationship - after 12 years of apparently blissful marriage she, among other things, wondered if she ever felt right about our marriage from the beginning. It is very hurtful and it makes you feel powerless. "Exactly what am I supposed to do with that statement?" Though I didn't like the idea of 'fog talk' before I now understand it and believe it. An affair - of any sort - does strange things to people's minds.

This is overcome-able GAM - if you are both willing to put in the effort. Great relationships - sexual or otherwise - are made, not found (IMO.) You both need to be willing to make it happen. That doesn't mean pretending to feel something you or she doesn't - fake it 'til you make it. It means learning to do the things and be the people that produces the feelings of romantic love between you.

Much of Harley's philosophy rest on the observation that feelings of love are the natural result of having your emotional needs met consistently and amazingly well. Your wife's needs have not been met for some time and because of that she has fallen out of love with you. Other's have suggested you start to find out what those needs are and begin identifying how you can better meet them. The whole 'it's not you it's me thing' sounds nice but it is rarely true. I guess some people are pathologically wayward - they just can't be faithful, but I think that is by far less common. If she says 'You just don't do it for me and you never have,' gulp, take a deep breath and use this as an opportunity to be the person she fantasizes about. How much of Harley's stuff have you and she read? Focus on Emotional Needs but don't forget LoveBusters.

I'm a Harley zealot. I firmly believe in his approach to these kinds of problems. The suggestions he gives are not the ONLY way to solve these types of problems but when applied consistently they work.

All is not lost. This is very fixable. You're in the right place to find the answers. See if you can get her on board with Marriage Builder principles.

BWS71 - Thanks for replying. Lake, thank you too. It's good to know that people can relate. It's an incredibly difficult time. Maybe I am fooling myself but in so many other ways our marriage seems/seemed great to me and my wife says the same. It's as if out of ten things in our marriage nine are great but one just isn't working for her now (sexual fulfillment). According to her it actually hasn't been working for her ever which is the hardest part. I am still very concerned that she feels so strongly that she's not into me (though she is sad to admit it). I've read a fair amount about Harley's philosophy and I've read the emotional needs and honestly don't think we're missing much really. Conversation, recreational companionship, honesty and openness, financial support, domestic support, family commitment all seem quite well addressed for us. Perhaps I/we could work a bit more on affection though I/we do regularly, i.e. daily (up until this week) express our love in words, hugs, kisses, courtesies, etc. I still buy her little gifts (i.e. a new CD here some soaps and lotion there) fairly regularly and present them as a surprise just because. The need for an attractive spouse is fairly high for me and I am very satisfied with my wife in that aspect. My wife's needs here are similar too I believe (I haven't given her the questionnaire yet) and generally speaking I feel pretty attractive overall. I am not overweight, I dress nicely, I am active, etc. I believe my wife would agree with all this. She says I am attractive though the line is "she is just not attracted to me." And that then ties into the sexual fulfillment. Because she is not attracted to me she is not feeling sexually satisfied or particularly willing. She seems skeptical (as am I) that this can be changed by putting in more effort, but we're not unwilling to try I think. At least I am not unwilling to try and maybe the marriage counselor can assist us on working on ways to make myself more attractive to my wife and make my wife more attracted to me and willing. Seems silly to say that but that's what I am hoping.

One last question. I will be traveling this week (Mon- Thurs) for a work meeting (long travel like this is more the exception than the norm for me). Should I ask my wife to complete the EN questionnaire soon (at the end of her working weekend) before I leave or should I ask her to complete when I am away? Maybe we should wait until after our meeting with the MC next Friday? Thanks again.

Ok, please paragraph, I had real problems reading your stuff.

The issues with which your wife is dealing are easy, but not obvious. The first deals with the simple fact that for women, getting a commitment is the equivalent of a man hitting a home run. After that, the thrill of the chase grows stale. UNFORTUNATELY, the former is marriage and the latter is a role in the sack, which does NOT always include marriage.

Once the commitment is made, boredom sets in.

The next point is that women have a natural infatuation cycle of anywhere from a few days to maybe three or four years. Infatuation is based on projecting values instead of understanding the person as they are, not as you want them to be.

When the infatuation dies and it always does, boredom sets in as they discover the excitement has an end.

Women are NOT naturally monogamous any more than men. But their values for sex are a bit different. The problem with this is that women marry, get bored, lose their infatuation and then look around for a solution OUTSIDE the marriage, which they conveniently blame along with husband for their "feelings."

They blame their husbands and make up negative traits to justify their feelings of boredom.

The problem with your wife is her social conditioning. She been reading too many romance novels or has friends who have and she is convinced that excitement is the natural state of a marriage and boredom is NOT natural. Nobody ever told her how to make the transition to real love and real intimacy because she has been busy, like most women, protecting her secret self from her husband and probably from herself as well. So she didn't seek knowledge of what a marriage, family and true intimacy with a man is all about because she didn't think she needed it.

Since she won't look inside of herself, she blames her boredom on you.

In other words, all the above means that she doesn't own her own stuff. She hasn't a clue why she feels the way she feels, just that she does. She is looking for something outside of herself to validate why she feels the way she feels, conveniently ignoring or changing any personal history that interferes with her current need for excitement.


Well of course she is no longer attracted to you. She already has the commitment. You are now boring. And at a guess, she has no clue why she feels the way she feels.

Here is what the MC must address; the root of your wife's attitude and outcomes from that attitude. In other words, any relationship your wife chooses to build will always be one that is on the false foundation of unreasonable expectations. So she is going to flit from relationship to relationship, each will fail and she won't know why.

Focus on outcomes; what does she want LONG TERM. If it is to maintain infatuation excitement and the chase to commitment, then her future looks very bleak indeed.

So what is another way? That one can only be considered if she is willing to own her own mind instead of blindly following a false social conditioning and a lack of understanding of WHY she REALLY feels the way she feels.

Hope this helps.

Larry

I think Larry makes some good points about the false notions and idyllic fantasies our society perpetuates about relationships and marriage. I think at times we are all guilty of unrealistic expectations and counterproductive ideas about what love is about. I'd hesitate to single women out in this regard. Men are just as prone to this type of faulty thinking. I would take in to account the fact that your W may harbor some misguided ideas about what marriage should be like, but I'd be careful describing her as shallow, selfish and immature.

GAM - you seem to believe that your marital troubles may be Harley-proof, that somehow your problems are different and maybe your M is doomed. I suppose the issues you have just uncovered in your M are so unique and serious that what has worked for 1000s of couples won't work for you. It is possible but the odds are against it. Things may seem hopeless now - they may even get worse as more information comes out - but you must take that leap of faith. You both must willfully suspend your disbelief and allow this process to work. I would recommend getting Harley's books (HNHN and LoveBusters or at least Falling In Love, Staying in Love.) The books are much more in depth than the website.

Guys typically marry whoever they are going with when the nesting instinct hits them up side of the head. Would you call this shallow, selfish and immature? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I love the line somebody here has as their tag line:

"People kiss with their eyes closed. Too bad they get married the same way."

Larry

Hi Larry. Thanks for the feedback. My wife is not much of romance novel reader nor does she hang out with friends who read romance novels but I see your point.

I hope it's a boredom/commitment thing since I feel confident that we could work on that and hopefully change things. Of course, from the moment this came up it's never been "I just don't find you attractive ANYMORE." It's more like "I don't find you attractive and I never really did. I'm very sorry."

That's the biggest thing for me to shake off. From what I've read in these discussion groups the "anymore" part is pretty common, but no so in my case. Still, maybe her statement could be a "fog talk", rewriting history, etc. kind of thing that's been mentioned here before. I hope so and I hope it just came to light because of this "never in her life before" experience with meeting this other man that she recently had.

I don't have any good way to monitor if she really has/will cut off communication with this other man but I trust that she will (naive, I know). At least I think she will cut it off long enough for us to try a few things first. But, I don't think the other man will let it go so easily. I can check her cell phone records I guess.

I think my plan (if I can stick to it) is to stay strong (that's the hard part), give her a little space and let her think about what we've already discussed ad nauseam. She says she wants to work it out if possible and we can officially start with the first MC session next week. The "focus on outcomes" is a good suggestion as well and I'll try to do that myself and encourage my W do the same. It's just such a wierd feeling around the house now.

Any other suggestions? Should we do the EN questionnaire now or a little later? Thanks.

Both of you need more information about what is going in with your own minds and emotions. If the MC does not appear to be promarriage or appears to be lacking in the experience and mind set it takes to help you, then I would encourage you to contact the Harley's IMMEDIATELY.

A bad MC will doom you. And way too many of them don't know their [censored] from third base about relationships.

Larry

I've read lots of stories on this site where the WS says, "I never really did love you." You and your wife are not the first. You say you were passionate together during the first years. Trust your memory. I am certain it is accurate because you are not looking at this through the fog of infatuation with a new person.

Try this on: Your wife got a new pair of shoes 11 years ago. They were pretty sharp, the nicest ones on the shelf. She loved them for a couple years. But the heel wore down and she did not replace it. She did not clean them regularly, the insert went flat.

She happened to be at a shoe store the other day and she saw this fantastic pair of shoes. They were practically winking at her. The color was a favorite of hers. She put them on. They were clean, provided nice support, felt great walking in them. Then, she puts her old pair back on. They are the same old same old shoe. She thinks, Why did I keep these so long?, I never really did like them much. They just aren't working for me.

I think it would be good to fill out the needs questionnaire before you leave. It would be good for you to know some information before you are away from her. Do you keep in touch regularly while you are gone?

Passion is created by specific actions. Maybe both of you sort of lost your desire to work on passion once the initial lust for each other wore off. If you both put in effort, you can build passion.

This has been something that my FWH and I have struggled with. I think I was a little better during some parts of our relationship in trying to build passion. He was better at other times. We just did not ever work together on it very effectively until we both panicked after I discovered his secret relationship and labeled it an "emotional affair." The baggage of his emotional betrayal does bog us down, but we are now both working on building our relationship.

Do not just trust that she will have no contact with this guy. It will be very hard for her to resist contact based on what you are saying about her current feelings. Check her cell phone records.

Do a search on this site for the carrot and the stick of Plan A. You need to make sure that you are doing both types of behaviors so that you don't come across to her as weak or needy.
Lake

Hi Lake. Thanks for the thoughful post.

The analogy is helpful. I will ask my W to complete the needs questionnaire with me tonight before I leave tomorrow. I agree, it would be good to know some more information before I am away. We do keep in touch daily with phone calls when I am away. We don't end up talking as much on the phone as we do in person but we keep in touch.

We had a planned dinner event last night. The day before yesterday we weren't sure if we would go together or if my wife would just go alone. We talked some more yesterday afternoon before the event and decided to go together. It was nice. We were affectionate (holding hands, etc.) and able to eat some food. Things seemed almost normal.

Of course, I know we still have some big challenges to overcome and this will be a long process. I am not fooling myself and I'm trying to look at things realistically. The good news is that my W seems open minded at this point as am I. Thanks again for your input.

Gam I have to say your wife sounds like I did before I found this site. I was bored but for different reason. I like being active and doing fun things with my H and kids and he just wanted to sit at home most of the time. So I would just do things with the kids and because of this we grew apart because he never really had anytime doing things I liked to do together. I felt like a single mom because I was doing almost everything for and with our kids by myself.

Well because we were connected because niether of us were focusing on the problems we had. I started to find myself attracted to someone else. I knew it was because I wasn't getting what I needed from my H so I tried talking to him about it because I didn't want to do anything to hurt him. I tried talking to him about what I needed from him but I felt like it was going in one ear and coming out of the other. He kept insisting that we had a good R and everything was fine. It was all in my head and I just can never be happy I always have to look for something to complain about. I kept trying to tell him and I was frantic because I didn't want to hurt him. I had been trying to tell him for years what I needed from him to feel loved but nothing seemed to work. I had been feeling neglected for a long time.

Then one day he saw that the guy I was attracted to was attracted to me as well then you know what happened. All the things I had been asking him for all this time he just started to do. At first I got so mad because I felt like why couldn't he just listen to me why did it take him seeing someone interested in me to get him to start giving what I needed from him. All the while I was trying to get through to him I had found this site and I started doing the things I had been neglecting on my part towards him.

I realized that he must have felt just as bad as me. Until that point I thought I was doing what I needed to make him happy but in actuallty I was doing things for him I wanted him to do for me and the things he was asking of me I felt like they were not that important because they were not important to me. I didn't take the time to think that because they were important to him I should have considered how he felt. I realized I was being really selfish. I realized all the things I had accused him of I myself was just as guilty of the same things.

So I started posting different scenarios here and getting input and while doing that I just knew I had handled everything right but the wise people on here showed me how I was still adding the problems. I was still justifying and not validating his feelings. I was also still not being as respectful as I should have been. Now because of their help and my H's willingness I no longer even think about the OM and I was glad I didn't let things get any further than they had. I to did what your W did and told my H of my feelings of being attracted to the OM because I knew if he knew I would be less inclined to act on what I was feeling. I think this may well be why she told you. So she wouldn't act on what she felt. Also I once I realized that I was entertaining thoughts of cheating I stopped talking to the OM because I wanted to give my M a real chance without adding to my problems and I have to say coming here instead of going down temptation lane is leading me down a new path. I can talk to my H so much easier and he feels the same way. We are much more open about what's going on between us and we are doing much better. It is so much easier to rebuild a R when you don't add betrayal to the mix.

You should be very thankful that your W came to you instead of letting things go any further. That right there shows she is committed to you. Trust me it could be alot worse. She may very well no longer be talking to the OM. She sounds as if she realizes that he is not the real issue. I know I did.

DIG & GAM

Ever see the movie "Breaking Up?" On the surface, the guy is an entitled clod with a sacrificing female who is trying to hold it together. Then you peal the onion and you see it was her trying to get him to be who she wanted him to be so she could get more out of the relationship.

The Golden Rule of Marriage is each giving to the other what they need. The guy and gal each needed different things and he wasn't giving her what she needed. And her efforts to give him what he needed were superficial; simply calculated to get her what she wanted with minimum effort.

Both needed to grow up and give each other what they needed as a goal of itself instead of a quid pro quo. Neither was willing to do that, so they broke up.

Larry

No I haven't seen that movie Larry but it does sound alot like how our R was before I found this site. Now I can tell I am truly giving and not because I espect something in return but because I want to because I know it makes him happy. That is truly all I really wanted I just was being to stubboorn to listen to what he was telling me would truly make him happy because I thought I knew everything. Now I can tell how much I have grown because I realize now that I knew nothing or that what I knew was wrong. I am learning and listening now instead of answering my own questions with my own answers now I ask him questions and listen to his answers and take to heart. It had really made a big difference. Thank God for this board and the people on it. Whatever brought everyone here it has been a blessing to all in one way or another.

Someone leads, the other follows, usually. If they don't, look at the style of leadership. If that still doesn't work, use a 2X4. It isn't easy, but it is worthwhile.

Larry