Ears I'm sorry I didn't get to read the lost post! I'm sure it was good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for taking the time to type in a condensed version.

More on H&O: Last night I was talking to H, more just to have something to say because I wanted some attention and some connection. Then I realized it was turning into me criticizing how he dealt with DS5b earlier. H clammed up and stopped responding, so I went back to the bedroom. I started feeling resentful, and wanting to withdraw. Instead I remembered your posts about "drive-by H&O". H isn't big on long heart-felt discussions, but when he came to bed, I said "I didn't mean to be criticizing you. I was mostly just wanting to chat about anything. I'm sorry it started turning into me criticizing what you did." I think it help.

mvg, I don't think H is at the point yet where he feels the NEED to contribute to "my" household. He thinks that him paying for the Canadian expenses (that mortgage, that credit card, and the family's expenses in the summer) is about equal. I don't see how it is equal, but I haven't loked at the numbers.

H also doesn't think we are in quite as much financial trouble as I do. For one thing, he is willing to make just the minimum payments on the credit cards. I want to do Dave Ramsay's "Debt Snowball": when you have paid off one debt, you take that monthly payment and add it to the next debt, rather than spending it. For example, September was the final car payment. We also finished paying off another credit card. So I want to add that amount of money each month to the next credit card on the list.

Also, I still haven't been paid for my summer work. That should be coming in soon. H is counting on that for spending. I want to apply all or most toward the credit cards and medical bills.

So I guess we aren't in danger of starving, or even foreclosure. We could make all our minimum payments for the most part, but I really want to get out of debt and I want to save up for expenses like childcare, Christmas, birthdays, car registration, rather than putting more charges on credit cards when those things come up.

I worry about how we aren't saving for retirement or college. Maybe H is less worried because the Canadian equivalent of social security may (?) provide more in retirement?

Y'all are right about the shiny sink. *I* am the one who enjoys having certain things clean to a certain level, so *I* will be the one who chooses to keep things that clean. I guess the alternative is for me to nurse a grudge for H not cleaning things to my expectations, or for me to browbeat H into doing it. If I'm honest with myself, I wouldn't like that second option because I wouldn't want to be with a beaten-down man! And I wouldn't enjoy having a well-nursed grudge either.

So it appears *I* will be most happy if *I* do the cleaning *I* care about, according to whatever time I have. I think I'll try letting go of some other things, things H is willing to do, in order to make time to do the things I want done that H doesn't have as high on his priority list.

Such as: I'm staying in bed right now grading exams and fighting the beginnings of a sinus infection, while H takes the kids out to do some things - buy Halloween costumes, crickets to feed our praying mantis <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> maybe a winter coat for DS5b (because of me, we bought one on sale last spring that now fits DS5a), etc. I'm going to let go of those choices. I also wanted to take the kids to a community "pumpkin patch" thing this afternoon, they are giving away free pumpkins. H said we already have two pumpkins, we don't need more. I said "But they're FREE! And it will be fun for the kids!" Since I want to get over this cold thing before it turns into a full-blown sinus infection, I will let go of that choice too.

For me the thought of passing up something free and fun bothers me. But H in his logic has determined there are other things he wants to do today. I usually have unrealistic expectations of how much can get done in a day, and end up stressed out. I acknowledge H is probably just being realistic with what time there is today.

(Aside: we budgeted for the coat, and the crickets come out of my recreation money, but we forgot to budget for Halloween costumes! I guess it comes out of the "Christmas/birthday" account. It seems each month there's something that takes that month's Christmas amount! At this rate we won't have much saved up for Christmas, and DSs's b-day is in January!)

H signed us up for a "parents' night out" tonight - the kids' school will take care of the kids (I think it's a fall festival type party even) while the 'rents go away. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Some RC time!!! That's high on both our ENs list, we just tend to have different ideas of the activities that qualify.

H also doesn't think we are in quite as much financial trouble as I do. For one thing, he is willing to make just the minimum payments on the credit cards. I want to do Dave Ramsay's "Debt Snowball": when you have paid off one debt, you take that monthly payment and add it to the next debt, rather than spending it. For example, September was the final car payment. We also finished paying off another credit card. So I want to add that amount of money each month to the next credit card on the list.

Have you both discussed this? Find a way to be a win-win instead of feeling like you are giving in? Compromise? Maybe something along the lines of paying more than the minimum payment but not quite as much as you would like? And decide before spending where the $ will go? My H doesn't 'think' the same as I do financially either, thankfully tho he does NOT like debt so we kinda work together with this. We are going to be doing more financial evaluating together as soon as I can put the actually dollar amounts in a spread sheet so we can actually see where the $ goes. Great to have a budget but $ have a tendancy to go other places.

mvg, I don't think H is at the point yet where he feels the NEED to contribute to "my" household. He thinks that him paying for the Canadian expenses (that mortgage, that credit card, and the family's expenses in the summer) is about equal. I don't see how it is equal, but I haven't loked at the numbers.

Put the actually #'s down on paper. Then both of you review. Maybe he has no concrete idea of where his $ are going and where yours are either.


For me the thought of passing up something free and fun bothers me. But H in his logic has determined there are other things he wants to do today. I usually have unrealistic expectations of how much can get done in a day, and end up stressed out. I acknowledge H is probably just being realistic with what time there is today.

LOL, sorry...that's me to a T! Free it's for me, plus FUN geezzz how could you pass it up! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'm glad you let this go.

H signed us up for a "parents' night out" tonight - the kids' school will take care of the kids (I think it's a fall festival type party even) while the 'rents go away. Some RC time!!! That's high on both our ENs list, we just tend to have different ideas of the activities that qualify.

Hey it's a start! Sounds like next time it's YOUR turn to find a RC.

Take care, hope you feel better quickly!

Hi all, I feel like I haven't posted to my thread in ages, but apparently it's only been a couple weeks. One reason I'm bumping this up, is so LA can point out some DJs for me. Thanks LA!

mvg, we did manage to sit down and do the budget, *really* do it. It took an entire Saturday but we got everything into an Excel file and planned how we were going to spend a paycheck, then just yesterday we did it again for the next paycheck. I feel a lot less stress now. We still have some money concerns, but I feel better having actual numbers and knowing where we stand.

Now if I could just get some H&O from H about the Canadian money. I asked him a couple direct questions: "When are you going to get paid from Canada? If the renter isn't paying enough to pay for the Canadian expenses, how are you covering those if you haven't gotten paid?" He said he was paying from money he had saved up. I said I didn't know he had money saved up and asked him how much it was. He refused to answer. (He said "I don't know" so I said "does that mean you don't want to tell me?" and he said yes.)

I then dropped it, because the only thing that was going to happen at that point was LBs.

I am thinking of printing out the LB questionairre and asking H to fill it out tonight. I'm guessing he would say I nag. I would say his are IB and no H&O. If I go ahead and print it out and have it ready, and then approach him after the kids are in bed, is that "springing it on him" too much? A long time ago he agreed to do the ENs questionairre, but we never finished it. So I think it's not against POJA for me to ask him to do the LB one, and I figure having it ready would just make it more convenient, so that if he does agree, it will be all ready and we can get something done before he gets too tired.

Our date night went really well. We went out to eat, and we were going to go to a movie but neither of us was really excited about the choice of movies. So instead, we went to the video store and got a couple movies plus one for the kids, for less $ than going to the movies. Plus the kids got to bed earlier than if we'd gone to the movies. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jayne, you got a great great start by doing the budgeting. And dont back down now or relax! You must next face the bills on the place in Canada.

And where he is getting the money to pay for it. And how much he has saved, what you are going to do with your lump sum paycheck, what your goals are with money, what his goals are with it.

Maybe you two are not at the financial place to own two homes. The numbers will tell you. Those exact numbers need to be faced. Head on.

Your next talk, hopefully within a week, should be about these things. You gotta do it.

I cant understand why he wont work. I dont understand it and I dont like it. Is he a good househusband or do you have to pay for childcare on top of you working i forgot if you mentioned it earlier....get his butt to work I say!

One girfriend whos husband was out of work for 9 months asked me how long I would put up with my H not working. I joked and said "24 hours"!

But really I am asking my H to retire and help me with my work. He refuses to do it...yet.

I want your husband to get a job. Find out why he wont contribute to the family. i know he was good to you when you almost died. But he needs to get his behind out and start working!!!!!!

Hi Stella,

He is in a way working... he's continuing to do some work on the same project he was working on before, only it's gone to the next stage; a couple years ago I started working on the same project, to make it easier to solve the geography problem. So there are some tasks that he can work on here with me, only I don't have any money to pay him from my project. The people in Canada supposedly agreed to pay him part time for a few months, but H says he hasn't received any pay yet. But he is spending time doing work on the project.

Actually, the specific tasks he's been doing, are tasks I said my group would handle. H took over the tasks of this other guy, who was p***ing off the suppliers and sabotaging me (I had several people make a point of warning me that this guy was saying all sorts of things, blaming me and others for his own problems). So I basically had to fire this guy - I'd never fired anyone in my life - but in two days I was involved in two different people getting fired. Well they were just fired from my stuff, not from the university.

Sidetrack. Sorry. Short version - H is spending time doing work, and doing work that benefits me because I said my group would do it. But I can't pay him and the folks who said they'd pay him, haven't yet; and even if/when they do, it's only part time.

The best solution is if I can get some funding to pay H and have this other guy be H's "boss" instead of me. This other guy is like my BF at work, he's been working behind the scenes to get H hired, etc, so that would be perfect. There's legal problems if I was H's "boss".

H has been doing about 80% of the childcare since he came back with us. He has more patience than I do, and I'm not a morning person, so he is the one to get them up and dressed and fed in the a.m. I love to cook, but with H around I only cook when I want to - since he's at home, if I come home from work too tired to cook, he takes care of it.

He does a little less than half of the cleaning. I had expected that with me actually leaving the house to go to work, that he'd do almost all of the cleaning. But I have a lower tolerance for some things. So I sometimes start feeling sorry for myself. But, him getting the kids ready in the a.m. and doing all the cooking when I don't want to, is worth a lot.

So, he's not a complete bum. He's not contributing financially to the U.S. household, and I am stressed about finances. But he does contribute in other ways, that helps me get my work done, helps reduce my stress and workload, and potentially helps me make more money...

This project is something that he is totally "in love with". I can understand trying to stay connected to it. If he got a 9-5 job that would present a problem now, since I arranged my life to be paid to work on the project during the summers. It would be very ironic if he got a 9-5, 12 month/year job here and *I* had to go back to Canada for periods of time without him.

I know I know - my life is just way too complicated, huh?

Jayne, I'll trade! I've tried everything I can think of to get my husband to help. A couple years ago, after living in our house 2 years and him doing none of the things I had asked for help with (hanging pictures, hanging curtain rod, etc.), I flat out asked him to help me, the correct way, sharing my feelings of being overwhelmed, appealing to the nice person I knew he was, etc. - with even just one chore - and he refused; said he never knew when he'd be home and available. So I quit doing his laundry. When he finally ran out of clothes and asked me what gives, I just reminded him that I had told him I was overloaded and had asked him for help, which he refused to do, so I decided that I had to sort out what I could handle. It made sense to remove a chore that he could easily take care of, since he had no other chores, so he should have plenty of time. He didn't wash his clothes (that would be giving in, his all-time no no), but he did go out and take care of a couple of the 100 or so things he hasn't done around the house; so I washed his clothes (trying to show him that if he would just do...anything...to contribute, I would gladly take care of him). Lasted about a month.

So 2 years later, I've decided that I will do his laundry, as I can't stand living in filth, but I draw the line at putting it all away. Just this morning, he's looking for underwear (his drawer is empty) and I remind him of the pile by his side of the bed (where he threw it to get it off the bed); he says "and why is it in the pile beside the bed?" and I answer "because I have too much work to do with all the other housework and I thought you wouldn't mind helping me with the one chore of putting away your own underwear." Still sitting there.

This is the third time we've had that conversation in two weeks. When I ask him to pick up the socks he takes off and drops on the floor in the living room he glares at me; if I ask him to throw away the candy wrapper he leaves on the kitchen counter, 1 step away from the trash can, he just stares at me and walks away. When I tell him I'm feeling overwhelmed and it would help me if he would agree to at least pick up his own trash, he just looks at me and turns away. So finally I'm here, learning how to fix our marriage.

So, it could be worse! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Cat, what is it? sounds like he just wants to piss "mama" off.

Stella, I wish I knew. Neither one of us comes from a stable background so we have atrocious 'skills', but he's worse. His dad was an alcoholic who had him working (roofing!) at the age of 5, to pay for his dad's beer. He raised his mother, and younger siblings; his mom and brother didn't move out of our house for 3 years after we married. His mom is schizophrenic and tore him to pieces emotionally. She expected him to do raise them, and everything else she wanted. Yet the younger son, the piece of cr*p who sold drugs, stole, cheated the government, and threatened to kill us, could do no evil while MrCat was always at fault for everything. The final straw was when we came home from a trip to find that she had moved out of the house (with little brother's help) we bought for her because she thought we were stealing from her (his idea), and left in the house every bit of memorabilia that had anything to do with MrCat - all his pictures, graduation stuff, gifts he'd bought her, drawings he'd made for her... And the next time we saw her, she acted like nothing was wrong!

We've talked about how he equates me with her, he denies it of course, but he just refuses to talk about ENs, marriage, anything. It's weird, because on the surface he's fine and normal and functioning, but if you bring up anything emotional he just pretends you aren't speaking, won't go there.

He's just heavy into avoidance - won't discuss taxes (2 years behind), won't discuss anything that needs to be done (pretends I'm not talking to him), won't discuss vacations until we're in panic mode at the last minute, won't discuss paying off bills, wouldn't fix up our last house so that we sat on it for 4 years paying all the bills on two houses. And of course, there's nothing wrong with him; if I question why we're putting money from finally selling the house into a 401k instead of paying off $100,000 in bills, he yells at me for questioning him and calling him stupid. If I ask if we can clean out the garage this weekend, or just say I would like to, he gets up and goes and works in the woods behind our house on a landscaping project he concocted (for me). Even something as simple as putting a knife in the sink instead of on the counter is a fight, if I choose to bring it up. Utter avoidance.

So I'm working to fix myself a little, educate myself, so that I can approach it in a healthy way. Because otherwise, I'm like that other poster (sorry, forget who) who said their wife has an escape plan for leaving as soon as the child is out of the house.

Anyway...sorry, Jayne, didn't mean to highjack your thread.

Im so sorry, he is dysfunctional like my girlfriends husband. And you have to live with it. Like she did. And does. She tried everything too. i feel for you, i had boyfriends like that. And it was really an energy drain.

Jayne,

The DJs I saw kicking your tushie when you felt down at the conference...

Assuming people were being fake, condescending, didn't care, were thanking/congratulating you only from politeness or courtesy.

Do you know what others actually are thinking? No. When they share their stuff...you may hear it as being about you...remains about them. "I like your dress" is the opinion of the person speaking...of their likes and dislikes. That's sharing.

In the setting you were in, people may have been saying "You did a great job" or "You look tired"...those "you" statements sure sound like they are about us, don't they? They aren't. Again, others' opinions as if about you...sharing their perception, their stuff.

What you don't know, you don't know. When you put attitude and intent into others' stuff, you're betraying yourself...you're hurting your real self. You're saying you can read minds...that your focus is on other people...their stuff matters. Yours doesn't. You're not minding your stuff.

Reality is you don't know one way or the other...go for clarity, not judgment. Listen and repeat...with your H, too...this is an important part of partnering...the respectful part. Changes our parenting style into real partnering.

Seems like that's what Cat and many others here are striving for...DJs come from assuming you know what you cannot know until shared with...and even affects how we hear others, sharing or not, because we will HEAR what we expect...and it may NOT be what's being said.

Reality is a harbor, a refuge, a place of real responsibility and marvelous freedom. We're taught the opposite...guess to know, mindreading means love, earn respect and love from others (which means we will also earn punishment)...the inside out of what's real...it's fantasy.

Reality--because you sat down and went over the numbers, your stress dropped. Expectations are premeditated resentments. You were living in not knowing and stressing as if you knew...assuming a reality instead of knowing it.

Not bashing you here...clarifying. Humans do not do anything they do not want to do...so when you live in false stress, react to it, strive against it, there's a false payoff in there...find that false payoff and know it for what it is...how it works in you. Then you'll be free of doing that particular things again, as long as you stay aware of the false payoff.

Listen and repeat clarifies and respects...when you choose to do this, because you want to live from respect and love...then you experience feeling respected as a result.

Listen and repeat acknowledges, validates...does not contain approval. What it could have done in your finance discussion was state the truth separate from his truth or your truth...which helps your brain to know a DJ (assumption) from reality.

Retraining our brains here...

"I hear you're choosing not to be open and honest about your money with me right now." That confirms reality...doesn't say he's a bum or brilliant...states with clarity his choice to not disclose right now.

Not forever. Not ever. Not never.

The more you confirm the truth (which are choices in actions), and vanquish the LBs of the "you should/shouldn't" of his beliefs, perceptions, feelings, thoughts...the more you will experience being well-partnered...respected...heard, acknowledged and validated your self for your own stuff.

Does not depend on him. Your focus to get HIM to do/think/believe/perceive is betraying yourself; signals will be distrust, lots of rejections, pain and fear. Yucky.

You choose your own thoughts (where they dwell is what you'll treasure...don't treasure all his "doesn'ts" 'k?)...perception (assumptions are fantasy), perspective (choose to see him as your equal...whole, complete and separte from), beliefs (we have thousands from way back...trace your emotions to know what belief you're holding...like others being fake to you...a really old child's belief)...and validate your own feelings through O&H.

Use this signal to check your stuff...bring your focus back where you have control...what you crave most you are least giving. Sure helped me.

When you DJ others' stuff, then you're assuming, not owning and knowing your own. That HURTS. Self-abandonment kicks our tushie...this is all directly from my experience...I DJ'd like it was air to breathe. Same way for parenting, not partnering. We learn. We grow. We change.

And then everything changes.

No one can drain our stuff...make us feel/think/believe/perceive anything...we choose. Our half. I learned how much I parented my DH and expected him to act like a man. I became aware how very much I wanted him to parent me and then fought him for controlling me.

LOL

We're not crazy, bad or wrong...and NEITHER ARE THEY!

Whoa...two humans in a human marriage. Complicated beings, separate and equally complex...each marrying the other to solve their FOO stuff in empowered ways...no WONDER it becomes a power struggle, eh?

Both right there, choosing their marriage every day...hearing what they expect the other to say, not what they are saying...no one choosing to go first to confirm or clarify, act from respect and love...waiting for the other, focused on the other...and the downward spirals continue.

Great part about cycles/loops we seem stuck in...anytime you remove any part of the cycle...the loop breaks...the cycle stops.

How 'bout that? God is great...his design is miraculous. Get to know it, use it, abide in it, and live from it.

Get our signals, do our tracing...know ourselves and share who we really are...that's partnering.

(And Cat..don't repeat. Your progressive boundary enforcement with the laundry was great...fine tune your stuff...when he asks why, you can honestly say, "I know you know why they are beside the bed." Calm, respectful...grounded in reality. Your half.)

LA

Ack! I've gone from bad to worse... LA I'm sorry, I feel like I let you down. I appreciate what you wrote, but for some reason this morning I really LB'ed, had an AO and now I need to do damage control for that.

Ok, first, I'll respond to what you wrote. So you saw me DJing when I assumed people were thinking badly of me at the conference. I was unable to accept any compliments, assuming all sorts of hidden messages. Yes I see that now... I don't *feel* it, it still *feels* like I was correct about those things. But I will acknowledge that I'm not a mind-reader. What to do about my feelings... Is it possible that my feelings, my intuition, is correct? Or are you saying, it may be correct but I don't know for sure, so I shouldn't beat myself up over it?

I do tend to beat myself up over things. I've read about learning to recognize internal dialogues and changing the horrible things I say to myself - bringing them into the light of day, exposing them to show how they are false. I've read about that, but I haven't gotten very far at all at doing anything about it. I think the DJs you are talking about are the same thing. If I think of them as DJs maybe I will find it easier to recognize them.

So, I get hung up by the minutae (sp?) - do I need to actually write these down, like in a journal? Or just learn to recognize them mentally? How do I fight them? Because when I read that I should use a journal, invariably I don't have time for that and I stop working on it.

Ok, now for today's disaster. I was looking for a doctor's bill to submit to the insurance, and started looking in a box where I'd sorted things into categories: things that need attention asap, things that need to be filed, and things I don't want to throw away but are not important (like nutrition newsletters, kids' school newsletters, etc). As it turns out, H has been just dumping all sorts of bills and other mail into my box and it's all mixed up now, so that I have to go through everything in order to find anything. This is the 4th time I've gone through that box since August, and I can't find anything. Including the $400 doctor's bill.

That is a bill I paid myself, and I think H threw away the receipt. So I spent several days tracking down who to call to get another copy of the bill, and I finally got it and I either left it in Canada (but H says he didn't leave anything in the pile by the phone where I would've left it) or I put it in that asap pile. That asap pile is no longer in the box, H either filed the things or who knows what.

I am so frustrated. I don't have time to do the same thing over and over, I barely have time to do things once! It's like the kids' clothes - when I was doing their laundry, I would set aside the clothes they had outgrown, after washing them. I would put their current clothes in their drawers. But H kept mixing the too little clothes in with their current clothes before I had time to put the too little clothes into a storage bag and in a closet. Over and over again I had to separate out pants that didn't fit. It made getting them dressed take longer than necessary, because I'd give them pants that were too small.

I finally gave up - I put clothes in the washer but let H do whatever he wants with the clean clothes - so they are all over the guest bed. No clothes in the kids' drawers. I don't care, I no longer dress them in the a.m. Sheesh. I'm angry but trying to let go. H's parents are coming for T-giving, I wonder what he's gonna do about the guest bedroom.

I'm worried about throwing my hands up about the financial stuff. I want to take care of some things. But I am sooooooooo frustrated at sorting through the same box over and over again.

So right now I've got little piles of paper all over our bedroom floor and bed. I'll be H&O with y'all, I did some childish things. To show him what it feels like to have someone come along and move where your things are, I moved some of his things. I took all his underwear from his drawer and put it on a shelf in my closet. I took a folder of his papers that he had beside the bed, and I put it in the filing cabinet - which he never looks in. I took his toiletries thingy - a travel bag where he keeps his toothbrush, toothpaste, dental floww, deoderant, etc - from the bathroom countertop and put it in the cabinet under the sink. LOL I don't know whether to smile or feel guilty.

Am I worse than you thought I was?

So I tried to talk to him about finances today and he said he doesn't want to talk to me. I don't want to apologize. I want us to maybe do the LB questionnaire so I can tell him how I feel about his IB. I know that isn't in the spirit of things. I am not doing a good job right now. I hadn't had an AO in a long time but I had one this morning. I'm not handling this very well.

I want to get my life in order but I feel like any progress I make is undone by H - getting the hose in order, getting bills in order, saving money, etc. I don't know what to do, because in order to not feel sorry for myself, I could stop trying - like, stop trying to save money - but that will only make things worse for us as a family. Two wrongs don't make a right. But what to do about feeling like I'm the only one trying to get things in order?

Jayne,

"Ack! I've gone from bad to worse... LA I'm sorry, I feel like I let you down. I appreciate what you wrote, but for some reason this morning I really LB'ed, had an AO and now I need to do damage control for that."

Awww, sweetie...you didn't let me down...you attacked your marriage and your self-respect. Doesn't call for damage control (which is a bogus fantasy-filled spin phrase)...calls for amends...the way back...redemption.

I promise you that LBing and then amending gives you practice at ownership...how we retrain our brains.

Do you know how to do amends?

Own exactly what you did...which of your boundaries you crossed (or each of them)...own why you chose to do each crossing and why you won't do them again.

That's amends. Teaches YOU that's not what you want, not who you really are...and shares who you really are with your spouse. You ask your partner (if that's who you LB'd) what they need from you for amends.

What's your payoff in judging yourself "bad to worse"?

What you do to yourself, you'll do to others. Get that two-way street...it happens. God's perfect justice in humans.

About DJs...sit in reality with me...you are no mindreader...no body language interpreter...you're an assuming machine. Because you have chosen to live your life from your emotions...choosing to act from them...then you try to divine other's thoughts, feelings and react TO them. Okay to assume their stuff because you're assuming your own stuff...instead of knowing, being open, and okay with not knowing right now.

You're living backwards.

Normal to say, "Well, I was right this time, so that makes assuming a 50/50 shot." It's destructive, disrespectful and fantasy every single time you do it. If I say to you, "I had a lovely time and learned a lot, thank you." And you take that to be about you, not my experience, how much in reality are you? You may get the feeling of joy, appreciation, gratitude, admiration, esteem from what I say. Because you're reaching in and taking something I said to be about you.

If I say, "What a waste of time, piece of crap. Wish I'd never come at all" and you take that about you, not me...then your feelings may be pain, anger, disappointment, rejection, that you're a piece of crap. Because (say it with me) you're choosing to take something someone said, their opinion, their experience...their truth...and making it the truth or your truth.

Not real. Not real healthy. Certainly not respectful.

You wanna live from respect, Jayne? Would you like to experience an abundance of respect in your life? Then act from it. Do not take what is not yours...that's stealing. Listen and repeat so you do not take as fact what is opinion...even if stated as if the other person really, really, really wants it to be the truth.

Know it isn't. Remains opinion. Them sharing THEIR experience. Their truth.

You won't be able to discern which is which until you are sure of your OWN truth...what is solely yours...without judgment...your thoughts, beliefs, perceptions, perspective and feelings are valid...and solely yours. They are about you, to you, and your own. Your actions are public domain.

Okay, not totally public. They are the truth.

You may be seeing life like you slamming a door.

Your truth: You furiously slammed the door and made even the enamel tremble.

The truth: The door is closed. The door is no longer open. You shut the door.

Your feelings of feeling judged, rejected, sad during the conference are valid. Those emotions were from your choice to believe you were being judged and rejected and the sadness was you mourning your choice of beliefs.

If you choose to beat yourself up, you will beat others. That's the two-way street in God's design that you cannot change. You'll do it. You did it this morning. You'll continue until you REVOKE your permission to beat yourself or others up. Make it your boundary.

When you hear negative self-talk in your head...think, "That's not what I want" and focus on something else. Calm, respectful choice. No fighting, yelling back at it or sneering, mocking, being sarcastic...remember, you will do that to others, as well.

You are equal to everyone on this planet...you were made whole, complete, marvelous by the same hands. You are no less and no more than anyone else. You no more deserve abuse than others do.

You're half of every conversation...your perception when you listen, your words when you speak. Own your half. Respect others have their halves as well. I can share all of me with you and you may not believe I know enough to help you. I'm good with my part...holding myself to my honesty boundary, my connection boundary. I gotta let go your half.

And with my sticky fingers, that was really difficult to do. Couldn't do it until I created my code and began acting from it...not reacting. Not choosing my actions based on possible response. Until then, I lived backwards.

Great catch on naming the DJs to stay aware that's not what you want. Not who you really are, Jayne.

I chose to speak about them when I named and listened and heard them in myself and others. My DH and I do this while watching TV, too. Kinda fun. My DH felt really free saying, "Hey, that's a DJ" to me...and then, even freer, "Hey, I just DJ'd, didn't I?" We took them on together...helped each other stay aware.

I had no clue how much I hurt my partner when I put myself down. He finally told me a few years ago and I stopped. My permissions was it was okay to hurt myself, not others.

So much for equality, eh?

I gotta run and will read the rest of your post tonight...as you can see...it's all about me, anyway.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thank you so much for inviting me to your thread and being a part of your journey. What an honor for me. I'm very grateful for your openness and honesty.

LA

Doing amends... does that mean I have to give him back his underwear???

Cus the little girl inside me reeeeeaaally doesn't want to!

After the kids were asleep, I went to H and asked if we could talk. He still looked really angry, and I was missing him. He answered maybe. I said, what if I start by apologizing? He asked what specifically I was apologizing for. I said, my AO, for yelling at him, for dumping the contents of the box out... for hiding his stuff. I was being sincere, but at that point I started smiling... H did too. We both started laughing about it, and I said "I shouldn't apologize for that cus I told you I wouldn't, even though you didn't know that's what I was talking about." He said he knew what I was talking about. I'm glad we were able to laugh about it!

So I said I really need to POJA something because I'm feeling frustrated. He asked for my proposal, and I said I'd asked him to not move around things I was trying to sort, but that wasn't working so it was his turn to suggest something. He didn't have any sugestions. I asked if we could do the LB questionnaires. He said he was too tired, but I could go ahead and fill out the forms telling about everything I wanted to complain about. That wasn't good! I don't remember what I said to that, I may not have said anything. I didn't want to leave his statement like that but I couldn't think of anything to say.

It ended with him agreeing to do the questionnaires tomorrow night. Overall we "made up," the problem hasn't been resolved but he set a date for a discussion and we are not angry any more.

His underwear is still hidden LOL I don't know if he knows about that yet! I'll prolly get woken up tomorrow earlier than usual. I could stand getting up early tomorrow anyway.

So, my apology - I wasn't thinking about making amends, I was mostly just unhappy that we were angry with each other. My apology for the AO was sincere, but it would've been better if I had owned up to crossing that boundary, and re-established that as something I find unacceptable. As it stands, I see that in my mind it feels like it's an option even more so since I allowed myself today's AO.

Wow, you may be onto something... right after I DJ all over myself, I subject H to an AO. These past few days I've let a few boundaries get crossed, muddied, redefined. The more I let one boundary get moved, the fuzzier the other boundaries become.

I've mostly thought of boundaries as protective, keeping other people out and awa from hurting me. I haven't given much thought to boundaries outlining what I find acceptable for my own actions.

Ok, tomorrow morning I will give a better apology, as in making amends, for the AO. I want to feel again like that is not an option.

One more humorous part of this: (Oh yes I think this happened right after his statement that I didn't know what to say, this is prolly why) Ok don't get grossed out... it seems every fall when it starts getting cold, field mice try to get into the house. If we are diligent about keeping doors closed all is well, but 5 y.o. boys just aren't good at that. Sooooo, it seems we have a "friend." At that moment I found out, because I noticed a trap H had set out. Well let me tell you... if I hadn't been ready to kiss and make up before, I sure was then! Nothing like finding out we have mice, to make me appreciate having a big strong man around to do the yucky scary things!!!

Hmmm, maybe I should go return H's underwear...

editted to add: Oh LA I'm honored to have you here! You put so much thought into your suggestions. I've read what you said, and want to read it tomorrow also. There's a lot there, and I don't think it will all sink in at once. Everything you say about the internal dialogue, and owning my own reality and what others' say is about them, I'm not ignoring that, I'm still absorbing it. Thanks. I don't want to give you the impression I'm making light of your suggestions, just because I'm finding humor in what's happened today.

I am most definitely messing up. Another AO. I'm still angry, but I walked away to the bedroom. But I'm furious.

Over the past 24 hours there's been one thing after another that I've accidentally discovered that H hasn't told me, mostly related to the kids. Stuff like, Oh yes we have parent-teacher conferences tomorrow morning (the evening before, after I'd promised a student I'd meet with them. I didn't have an AO over that, but I tried to POJA something like a family calendar. He agreed, I entered all the info I knew and printed it out, and it didn't work 12 hours because he hadn't told me we were supposed to take the kids to one campus and us go to another... so I didn't count on any extra time, and just when I was about to get in the shower he said "We have to leave in 5 minutes." Ok, grrrrrrr, but I can take really fast showers.

Remember, he's the one taking the kids to school and back, and doing most of the work with their homework, since he doesn't really have a job right now, at least not outside the home.

But just now, I happened to ask "When is the kids' Thanksgiving lunch at school? I expected it to be this week or early next week. We haven't missed it have we?" He said "I think so." I said "You think what? That we've missed it?" He said "Maybe." I said "Well did we miss it or not? When was it???" He said "I think yesterday or the day before." I said "What do you mean? Was it yesterday, or the day before? Did you know about it?" He said DS5b told him about it "yesterday or the day before." I asked if it was before or after the event, and he said "What do you think?" I said, "Well, you said it was yesterday or the day before, and DS5b told you about it yesterday or the day before, so was it yesterday and DS5b told you about it the day before, or the other way round, or what????" He said "I'll answer that when you stop yelling." Yes I was yelling. So I took a few minutes, and asked him again in a quieter voice. His answer? "I don't know." AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And he was smirking!

I did a better job keeping up with their school things when I was essentially a working single mom and he was in Canada! The only solution I can see right now is for me to take over handling the bills, paperwork, and kids' stuff all myself, as if I was a single parent again. And I don't think I can handle that!

Please someone talk some sense into me. I am just full of anger and frustration right now, I can't think straight and I don't want to continue AOing.

I so so so so so much hate his IBing and lack of H&O!!!!!!!!!!
And I'm sure he hates my AOs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I thought we were doing so good the other day, able to laugh at ourselves and stuff.

ps - we did start the LB questionnaire last night, but H didn't finish it before we wanted to go to sleep. One step forward, two steps back.

jayne, may I suggest that you do some research on the topic of males vs. females and multitasking. It is most definitely a serious issue, in that men simply cannot multitask the way women do (no offense to the men here, talking clinically). It's a genetic thing, that allows women to keep an eye on the kids while pulling roots from the ground for food and getting water from the river and tending brother's wounds and...you get the idea. Men have to hunt...while women have to make sure the world doesn't collapse.

If your husband is responsible for the kids, et al., I HIGHLY recommend you look into a computer program like a day planner, that the whole family uses. If husband won't input, then sit with him for 10 minutes every night and go over the kids' papers, papers covering upcoming events, etc., and enter it all into the day planner program.

Either way, you can sit down together for a few minutes each night, and 'sync up' on your family's events. It will take a ton of stress off of you.

It almost sounds like all your problems are related to the kids. If the kids were not there, would you two have problems? I doubt it. I am not blaming the kids it is just that it adds more complications to your lives. And less time for you two to communicate, and more and more demands.

Really you cannot do it all! The kids can skip some things. You are at capacity...

If only you had a school calander of all the events then pick and choose which ones to go to. Let the neighbors take the kids sometimes to these events. Take more time with the husband. These kids do not have to be the total focus of your lives. I know kids need a lot, but you two need a lot also.

I have not any kids so I could be all wrong about this stuff.....

Ah cat, a voice of reason! So I'm getting mad at him for being just the regular brain-damaged male? LOL just kidding. Still a little anger coming out. But you are right, I've heard that before about the multi-tasking, and I've seen it in H. Yes we women can have three pots on the stove, a baby on a hip, breaking up a fight and monitoring homework while mentally making up a Christmas list!

On behalf of the guys, it takes intense concentration and focus to kill that woolly mammoth. They can't be easily distracted.

I can be focussed too, it just doesn't work well when pulling mommy-duty. For example, one time in college working on my thesis, I heated up dinner in the microwave and forgot all about it... until the next night when I went to heat up that night's dinner! You realize that also means I had gone without dinner.

Another time I went downstairs and started running some dishwater and ran back upstairs for a minnute... awhile later I was wondering why both my cats were in front of me meowing frantically, I went downstairs to find a half-inch swimming pool in the kitchen!

Yes that kind of focus would be quite bad with kids in the house!

Ok I'm rambling now. My anger is subsiding too.

It seems to me, I need to figure out what to do when I get angry as an alternative to an AO. And I need to be really committed to it. Like the making amends, I need to get AOs back outside my acceptable behavior boundary. I had it for awhile. But my resentment has been building, and the thought of my kids being the only ones at their school's Thanksgiving with no parents... well.

BUT. If AOs are unacceptable, they are totally unacceptable. A mature person would be able to not like what happened but do something that is not an AO.

I thought I'd made progress. Maybe I let my guard down, thinking I'd "arrived" or something. I wonder... was I adopting a "superior" attitude behind my getting rid of AOs? So that my motives weren't respectful, and I wasn't really committed...

jayne, give yourself a break. Please.

You're just caught in this worldwide issue of too much to do and not enough time. Slow down. Prioritize. Get rid of stuff you don't have to do. (I personally have dropped out of two programs I simply don't have time to attend to) Focus on your marriage and your family, and you'll be fine. I promise. We just need to slow down.