NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lemme get this straight... We had pizza for lunch, followed by birthday cake... then we had sushi for dinner (it's what the kids requested!) followed by a HUGE piece of birthday cake with a VOLCANO of icing...

Now you want me to go eat the leftover pizza in the fridge???

Whatcha tryin to do to me, kill me??? Maybe I should have some... what's it called? poutine... (or is that a nasty word?) I'm talking about the canadian dish of greasy french fries smothered in gravy and cheese curds, yum yum! Them's carbs, eh?

Go Leafs!
-Non, Go Habs!

Last week I fit into my ski pants for the first time since before the kids were born... I guess it'll be another 6 years before I fit into them again! ROFL

"Let them eat cake"...

Marie Antoinette...
...French...
French Canadian...
...poutine...

Cake=poutine!

(If I've got the wrong word and that's the wordy dird, I sure hope a mod medits me...)

(I'm soooo bad....)

Naughty Jayney... I cannot possibly think of anything that would be medit worthy can you?

Jayne is a clever girl. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And here is today's nominee for "Sig of the Day": graplin, as always wise and timely:


... or satellite.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/space/01/26/dead.satellite.ap/index.html

Jilly, I found that post I was reading a couple days ago, reagarding letting husbands parent like fathers instead of mothers. It's from schoolbus and it's awhile ago, I must have been following threads... anyway, here's the quote and then I'll try to link - I dunno if it will link to that particular post, or just to the thread in general.

Re: JL and Schoolbus [Re: bjs]
#3235117 - 05/07/07 12:24 AM
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post3235109

God grant me the serenity:
...to accept that my hammer may not be the right tool for someone else's nail;
...courage to try out other people's hammers on my nail, if my hammer stops working;
...and wisdom to stop insisting that someone else try my hammer.

Argh...

Just yesterday I was agreeing with someone about how I can be saying all sorts of wise things here, and then turn to something IRL and completely screw things up...

God is making extra-special sure that I don't fall for the sin of pride...

So that wonderful picture of a happy fun-loving family I painted yesterday? Is totally ripped to shreds at the moment...

First: H does something parental that I disagree with, of course I *really* think I have a good reason to disagree... I still do... if I went into details you may agree with me... but I need to calm down before I go into details, plus I want to think twice, de to recent questions concerning safety issues of exposing TMI...

Then: I stepped in and inserted my different parenting...

Then: I DJ'ed H...

Then: He AO'ed, including ***ok, let's leave that out for now***

Then: I AO'ed right back at him...

Then: we went to our separate corners...

Then: Since he seemed to not be getting the kids ready for the party they were supposed to go to, I went out and finished getting them ready... mumblings of DJ's inserted at will...

Then: I sent the kids downstairs to where H was waiting to take them to the party.

I behaved badly. He behaved badly. Now what was supposed to be a happy family time at another party, has been turned into a horrible experience for the kids.

And I had actually been IN THE MIDDLE of reading good motivational stuff online when all this started. I had high hopes for a wonderful day.

Now the way I am, I'm now ashamed and embarrassed, and even though I'm here alone I don't know how to get back doing all the things I'd hoped to do today... like, I feel too ashamed to finish reading that motivational stuff...

Let alone attack the work I was hoping to do...

C**p.

*Bang*head*against*wall*

Jayney,

I hear ya... just today I thought I was responding respectfully and it appears I hurt someone's feelings. I know I cannot own their feelings... but I did try to amend for my words and how they may have come across. Now I am frustrated because I am wondering if I was not indeed respectful. Arg is right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, with me too. You are not alone on this one.

Does your head hurt from banging it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

So it happened, like it does to all of us... cause we are not perfect... we are human. What are you doing to amend for your actions, and what steps are you taking to prevent this from happening again?

You know the drill. (((Jayney)))

PS hope the party turned out to be fun inspite of the bump in the road. You are already aware... that is half the battle you know this already too though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jilly, FWIW I've seen nothing but care and respect from you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How am I going to make amends, and what steps am I gonna take to make sure this doesn't happen again? I could really use help with this. I know the words I should say. It's the implementing...

How do I apologize for something I am so embarrassed for?
No really, *how* do I go about it? In front of the kids, or alone? What words do I use, especially since I think he behaved badly too?

I don't want to say "I'm sorry but you were bad too!"
The only way I'm thinking right now of making sure it doesn't happen again, is by "fixing" the problem with H's parenting that I was reacting to... That isn't a good answer. What's a better one?

What if H isn't willing to POJA a solution? What if he isn't willing to have a discussion, however respectful, except to hear me say sorry?

He's not big on talking, so that's a definite possibility. Probability.

Jayney,

Thanks for noticing that I really do try to be respectful. I am not always successful, but I will keep working on it.

Okay about your conversation earlier today: I think perhaps the apology would be good in front of the kids. Good for them to know that when mommy and daddy disagree that they are willing to make amends. Good lesson for them in that.

When it comes to the difference of opinion on parenting styles I would maybe do that one in private because my opinion is that as parents you guys want to present a united team front. I dunno I could be off on this one. If it were another issue I would say it might be great for the kids to see you and daddy negotiating through and problem solving. My fear (and I admit that it is mine) is that the kids might play off the parenting issue... and try to support the side of the issues that THEY like best. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

DH, I am so embarrassed about our conversation this morning. I am disappointed that I did not do a better job of communicating with you. I want to apologize for DJing your right to be an equal coparent in the raising of our children. I want to work on this with you. I feel ____________ when I see you parenting the children this way. I am upset because I feel ________________ about this method of parenting. I respect you and I want to work this out with you. I accept that we will not agree on every detail of parenting and I respect you as my equal. Do you have any suggestions for what we can do together to make both of us feel okay about this particular parenting issue.

Then see what he shares.

Good on you for already knowing that saying I was bad but you were too is most likely not the best route. If you phrase it using your *I* statements and then share how and why you feel the way you do about this particular parenting issue then I would wait to see how he responds. I know he is not big on talking, but does he apologize or amend when he thinks he has behaved badly? Perhaps when you share and amend he might too. I dunno... I know you have to do your own, share your stuff, and then (and this is the part that I am still really working on) let the outcome go.

Don't what if yet... it is trying to predict all the possible outcomes when you don't know what any of it will be. This is what LA helped me with too. Do your part and see what happens. Then you will have more information about what might be the next step.

What do you think?

Jilly

Ok... thanks for the help...

*deep breath*
Let me describe the parenting issue, and tell me if you still think I should apologize in front of the kids. (I mean that - I'm not saying, "Well listen here! This will change your mind!")

IMO H is a lot harder on DS6a than he is on 6b. What was going on was H had told the kids to make birthday cards for the party they were going to, although I thought he saw me pick out a card at the store, and 6a helped me pick it out, and it matched the gifts we bought.

So he was having the kids make cards out of construction paper, and he told DS6a to write "Happy Birthday" but he said no. But he was drawing a picture. He just is going through this thing right now where he likes saying "N. O. No." to requests. So H pinched him - on the chest, DS6a showed me later and it left a mark - and put him into time out. This was just a few minutes before they were supposed to leave for the party, and DS6a was crying his heart out in time out.

All morning it seemed like H was getting more and more physical with the punishments... maybe I should've stepped in earlier, but I deliberately chose to stay out of it, because I thought that was the right thing to do...

How I reacted was bad, absolutely. But I don't want the kids to think I'm condoning H's actions either...

They got back from the party, and I'm avoiding H until I figure out what to do.

And yes, I do agree that the parents should provide a united front, and I absolutely violated that today. Big Time.

I've tried discussing the different treatment of 6a and 6b with H, several times and even quite recently. He shuts me out. I haven't figured out what to do about that.

I'm afraid this will polarize the family - H and DS6b vs. me and DS6a. I detest that.

(((Jayney)))

Thank you for providing me with more information about what happened today. I can understand your frustration. If you have a belief that physical punishments for the kids are not okay and DH has a belief that they are... well that is a really complicated issue.

My parents spanked and so did DH's although not a lot. My mom said she did spank me a lot but I don't remember it being a lot. DH and I have both swatted the kids before. Not my finest moment as a parent. Here is why I changed my belief and did a blanket revocation of permission to spank. The ONLY time I ever spanked them was when I was ANGRY. I felt out of control... and I did NOT like that about myself. So both DH and I stopped spanking ever. This was a conscious choice because we realized that it was not how we wanted to discipline our children. We both agreed that it seemed that we were sending them a message that it is okay to hit when you are angry. Although I can probably count the times I spanked them on less than one hand... I am still ashamed that I did it at all.

We have also had the teaming up aspect occur in our household as well... the girls against the boys. Also not something we decided was good for the kids. It took me owning my own choices and DH owning his about why we were doing this. When we realized that we were putting the kids in the position of having to choose and also allowing them to be the coparent with each of us rather than us being the coparents with each other we stopped doing that.

I don't know exactly the right words to use to go about opening up a discussion with DH about the physical punishments and especially if they are escalating and focused on one twin more than the other then I can see why you are upset. Have you noticed anything about when he punishes this way? Does his own anger and frustration level seem to be escalating as well? Have you ever talked about this before with him?

I can certainly understand you wanting to step in especially if this is something that goes totally against your own core beliefs in parenting.

I think with this issue especially you are going to want to work on with DH without the kids listening... but I also don't think it was a mistake for you to step in today either.

I think LA will be back tomorrow or the next day... and maybe she and also Ears can help you with this as well.

This issue is a one that is more complicated than a lot of other parenting issues... because what do you do if your core parenting beliefs don't align with your spouses. I don't know exactly the correct way to proceed. I will give it some more thought.

Others will be along soon too. Hang in there.

(((Jayney)))

Jilly

Apologize wholeheartedly to him, about what you did. It doesn't matter what he did, at this point, because it's you who feels bad. Besides, if you take the high road, it might inspire your H to do so as well.

What happened to day isn't as consequential as how your H feels differently about the two kids. IMO, that is a humongous problem, one that will create even more humongous problems for your two boys. I promise you they already know there's a difference, and it will only get more pronounced as the years go on. Sit your H down and bring up the instances you've noticed, all together, so that he can see the pattern. Don't DJ, but express concern and let him know that you know he would never do it on purpose, but you'd like to understand how he feels and why he thinks it's happening.

Thanks Jilly...

I can understand how frustrated H was getting, goodness knows I've been there too... but yes the physical discipline bothers me. I've gone back and forth on that one. When I've been at the end of my rope, not just that moment but for a long time with them, I've resorted to using spanking... in a planned manner, letting them know ahead of time that that was an option. That would improve their discipline for awhile, then it wold get outa control again, so I would actually stop spanking and go back to techniques I've seen on SuperNanny... then when that stopped working... etc. I've done that twice I think. But for over a year now, I've been firmly in the "no spanking" camp.

Even without spanking, H uses physical force, like if one of them is acting up in a store, holding hands really tightly to the point of hurting, or pinching, etc... and that really bothers me. I think it teaches them that physical force is ok - not discipline, but force. Might makes right. Like today, when I AO'ed, he grabbed my wrists and shoved me, and my wrists hurt for at least an hour afterward...

*sigh* I know what y'all are gonna say now... and then I'll say "No it's not like that, I was really AO'ing" and then y'all are gonna say but that's no excuse...

Well, H apologized first. He avoided coming to bed for a long time, but when he did, he said sorry for yelling. I thanked him, then I said sorry for yelling too. Then I asked if we could discuss changing our parenting techniques. He asked what I had in mind, and I said I wanted to say absolutely from now on no physical punishment. He thought, and then said ok. Because a lot of the time there's a breakdown in communication, as in I think he's agreed to something that he didn't intend, etc., I asked if we could clarify exactly what we were talking about. He said, no pinching and no hitting. I said, also no squeezing hands too tight. He said he didn't do that, that if they are being hurt it's because they are pulling away. I told him he hurt my wrists earlier, and asked if he realized it. He said no he didn't realize he'd done it hard enough to hurt. I asked him to consider the possibility that he doesn't realize when he's hurting the kids also. I said I'd observed him at times doing things that he claimed he was just being "passive" (like with the hand-holding, saying it was hurting because they were pulling away) and that I felt he was stretching things to claim he wasn't contributing, that the other person was causing it. Ok that may be a DJ and I prolly should've worded it better, but considering the topic I felt I was doing pretty good just remaining calm with a reasonable tone of voice. So I said I am asking him to be more gentle in all his ways even if he thinks he's gentle enough because maybe he doesn't realize how forceful he's being. He said "Sure" and I said that I wasn't sure if he was really agreeing or if he was just wanting me to shut up. He said he'd do what he said he'd do. I think I asked if that included the last thing I said, I asked him something, and he said he didn't want to answer any more of my questions. I said ok and thanked him for talking as much as he did. I would have preferred more of a POJA, with him suggesting things. In fact I forgot to mention, at one point I told him I felt bad about my behavior too and would like to hear what he would like me to do differently or how I could make sure it didn't happen again. He said he didn't want to talk about that. So I asked what we could do to protect each other and the kids to make sure this wouldn't happen again, and when he didn't have an answer that's when I started my requests to not do the physical stuff. I know I've made this difficult to read by not making paragraphs but the truth is I feel ashamed and don't really want to make it easy for someone just browsing to read any of the details. I figure if you've suffered through and read this far then you are either a really good friend or perhaps a really determined enemy. If it's the latter there's not much I could do other than not be open and honest about what transpired, and then that would compromise the advice I would receive. So I'll just type a couple more sentences so the last line doesn't end with something to make people more inclined to wade through this mess. I think I'll go have that piece of birthday cake now that has been calling my name for the past couple of hours. I think I hear some ice cream in the freezer too.

Jayne, wow, I went through something really similar. I can't give you advice, as I am less "rational" about this than anything else. LA gave me some awesome advice. I'll hunt it down today so I can link it in.

I am so, so sorry. I know how horrible it feels to go through this. To have totally failed to protect your kid from something they never should have had to experience. It was such a deep betrayal to me, that my H could do this. And then to act like it was nothing. I have a social worker friend who explained this in a way that I could find forgiveness. Like the puppies playing, learning their pack hierarchy through this fighting. That he didn't mean it at all in the horrible way that it felt to me when I was misparented as a kid. It helped me to talk to my H about how horrible that felt as a kid. That it wasn't "fun playing" to me at all. That I experienced the same action he was using now as discipline as part of a bigger pattern of abuse from my step-dad, and that I could not tolerate it in my home nor torward my kids. He didn't agree with me, but he saw the pain that it caused me and he stopped. It is possible that the fear DD11 felt was response to my fear as much as it was to her Dad's actions.

My Dad, also, had been physically abused as a kid, and never laid a hand on us. My mom gave us a swat or a pinch every now and then, and I didn't understand why my dad thought it was so horrible until I walked a mile in his shoes.

Like you mentioned above, I used the Serenity prayer, to clarify what I owned and what I had the power to change.

Jayne, given the context, I think that while your AO was not justified, that it is understandable. IMO, a big betrayal like that takes some time to process before you can settle your chemicals down and find empathy and forgiveness. I can understand why it felt dishonest to apologize right away when you needed to take some time to heal first.

{{{Jayne}}}

I think you handled things very well. You got a lot of 'learning' into him, without a lot of bad feelings attached, I think.

I agree with ears that it might help to bring up some examples, if there are any, to help him visualize what the kids or you might have been feeling at the time. I would wait to discuss this, however. One thing I got from your description is that, while your H was willing to be O&H about this and willing to consider altering his parenting style for you, after awhile, he began feeling like you were 'riding' the moment or, as I think many men would say, 'harping on it.' I've noticed that men often don't want to do that - they want to reach a decision and move on, not dwell on a problem or take it out and look at it from all angles. I think it makes them very uncomfortable, like wearing a pink shirt.

So you might want to ramp up your sensors in future discussions for those little signals that say he's starting to get antsy and wants to stop the discussion. That way, he'll stop at the point where he's also comfortable and keep a good light on the decision he made. Does that make sense?

Please remember what I said, though, about you bringing up how he treats them differently. I hope you can watch for it and make a list of such times, and then find a good opportunity in the future to discuss it with him. Not in an accusing way, but in a way to say 'I know you would never do that on purpose, but did you realize...' You might want to read up on family dynamics, how different kids get treated differently and all. Usually, it's an order thing, so I'm not sure how twins would fall into that dynamic, but I'm sure there are some books out there on it.

You did great, anyway, good work. I'm proud of you for being able to talk, and apologize, and work through an agreement that didn't displease anyone. Good stuff.

Wow, jayne, just rereading, and I see this involved physical force against you, too. I like how LA challenged me and asked my why I didn't call the police to report this crime against me. She was SO right, and I really needed to look at all the reasons/justifications I had for tolerating this. And I had a lot of them. Do you or H come from a family where this was tolerated?

Here's an article that can really be applied to this situation, as it is more similar than you'd think at first.

Infidelity: The Lessons Children learn

Cat, my H wanted to sweep this stuff under the rug, too. Saw me as "harping on it." When it was "nothing." I'd done that several times in the past, and let me tell you, it falls into how we teach people how to treat us. If someone at work did that to me, I'd report that person immediately and would not return to work until that person was gone, even if that meant I lost my job in the process. If someone did that to my kids at school, the same thing, I'd pull them out immediately, even if it meant I had to take a second job to pay out the nose for private school, or homeschool them. Why was it acceptable in my home? Because of my fear.

Jayne, I am so very, very sorry.

Jayne, here's the last incident, with LA's help in there. I remember the last time was in July. I don't remember when the times before that were that I'd posted about. I will look for them this week, but my thread is huge. I got reminded of some good things looking for this one <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...art=57&vc=1

Again, I'm really sorry, hon, but I know that you can set boundaries to where you can be secure that it won't happen again. You can make this the last time.

And yes, I do acknowledge my double standard, because my code doesn't have a place for physical force in a marriage. Maybe the Villagers exercise will help get clarity on that.

Cat, I understand what you're saying about talking to someone when they're not interested/enthusiastic in participating. Kinda goes against POJA, huh? Hard to know what to do.

Jayne, are you a spiritual person? Have you been praying for guidance on how to handle this? That you can have the discernment to know what to do? Is your H a spiritual person? Have you found the online counseling yet?