WW knows I'm going after him in the Marines...guess thats not helping my cause then huh?

I don't think it matters WHO is doing the bashing. The BS, or the WS's best friend, or some faceless poster from MB. If it's said TO the WS, he/she is likely to defend the OP. At least mentally.

And BTW, there's a big difference between bashing... and making gentle suggestions or asking thought-provoking questions. The former is likely to trigger defensiveness.

--SC

Liar, liar!
Thong on fire!

smartcookie, and thats ok, too. I think if a wayward DEFENDS their OP here, that is a good discussion.

I think a wayward will get defensive about just anything, don't you? Most especially the TRUTH. But thats ok, when they are really ready to recover, they will listen without getting defensive.

Personally.,
it's too great a leap to liken an active WS...to a victim of much....

sorry...not feeling that one

though with thousands of posts under my belt.....there aren't many that waste time even talking or concerning myself much with OP.....

but let's see..

cad /kæd/
-
noun 1. an ill-bred man, esp. one who behaves in a dishonorable or irresponsible way toward women

hmmmmm...

yep that's just a little dose of reality...offerred in a tiny tiny three letter word....

I stand behind it....

ARKie

agree ark, it is silly to treat a wayward as if they are a victim. They are the VICTIMIZER, a CAD. Misplaced compassion only gives power to evil. Doublespeak makes my [censored] hurt.

Well, again, I'm sort of extrapolating this from my knowledge of working with abuse victims. Not necessarily a perfect parallel to the WS, but close enough to be useful I think.

When abuse victims first reach out for help, they are not usually ready at that point to take the steps necessary to help themselves. But the goal is to get the wheels rolling... to lure them in to keep seeking help. Put them on the defensive... make them think you "don't get it"... and they may never reach out again. And all too often, they end up dead.

When that happens, I don't consider it "problem solved". I consider it a [email]d@mn[/email] shame.

--SC

TRUE DAT!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Actually being "bashed" here helped Mr. W and I to communicate more...He even got to coddle me a little...It made us into a team again...It opened discussions for us on topics that would have been difficult to broach otherwise...I think it's very good for a WS to see that others find their behavior horrendous...

When I spouted some crap about OM being a "good person", I was promptly told that "good people" did not screw other people's spouses...Believe it or not that had not occured to foggy me...I needed to hear that and let it take root in my mind...

Mrs. W

p.s. I only called the OP a "cad" because it was shorter to type than SCUMBAG and sounded nicer.

MrsW:

As for the "genuinely want help and want to change"

That might get them here. But how they are treated will determine, to a greater extent, how long they stay. And since they are wayward, we already know that the have a certain weakness. (LG>>> Raising Hand...)

Should a poster be corrected in thier Wayward thinking? Definately. But a little bit of honey sometimes can make all the difference.

We are a chorus. And some will sing the high notes and others the low notes, and some will just hum along.

I think they can get some harsh 2x4's early. And bashing the OP is just one of the types of 2x4's that gets swung.

BS can get pounded around here as well. Takes a little longer, but if they don't realize that the problems in thier M need both people to work on it, then the 2x4's come out.

As for this:

"Life surely won't be if they remain that way"

From a new Wayward posting around here point of view, Life IS easy. They may be trying to make it easier, and they should get bashed for that, but the Waywards still need to be lead to drink the MB Koolaid...

LG


So, what was Mr.W's other screen name?
It would be fun to look THAT up....

PS: MrsW: I have spoken with Mrs LG, (Flamingo) regarding the little dustup in Feb. We are working our way thru it. I need to take Mr W up on that golf offer he made....

I never meant to imply that WS's are victims.

But they are mixed-up with bad dudes (or dudettes)... and I DO believe the defense reflex is the same in either case.

Well, we are not working with victims here, but the VICTIMIZERS. As they would tell you in AA, mincing words with entitled, selfish, self centered folks is nothing more than enabling. Never a good thing and never helpful.

Are we hitting a little too close to home by using terms like "CAD", sc?

I think perhaps we are hitting a little too close to home when we are very blunt about OPs, aren't we, sc? That is what this is all about. Have you even stopped seeing your OM? When was the last time you had contact?

Because your posts indicate the mindset of a WAYWARD, sc, who STILL IDENTIFIES WITH WAYWARDS, rather than RECOVERED FORMER waywards. That is what I see in almost all your posts. You are personally bothered by harsh references to OPs because you were very recently in contact with your affair partner.

You know, smartcookie, I think if you ever really recover, you won't be so defensive about straightfoward, blunt talk to a wayward. This is PERSONAL to you and it shows. I suspect that will change if you ever recover.

Are you asking if my OM was a CAD?

Yes. And worse.

I'm totally fine with that. I'm not talkin' 'bout myself here.

SC, if the person who came forward to you was not the victim of domestic abuse, but the perpetrator, would you deal with that situation the same way that you deal with the victim?

If the abuser arrived at the shelter complaining that he can't seem to stop himself from hitting his wife, but he feels justified because she simply refuses to give him what he needs, what would the advice be to deal with that? Would you invite him into the shelter among all the trembling, traumatised women, or would you point out gently but firmly that is not OK to hit your wife, give him the phone number of a competent professional and quietly close the door?

A WS is a victim only in a limited sense; he/she is an abuser in a much more concrete respect. Pointing out forcefully that the OP is, by definition, deeply flawed, is often the first wake-up call they've had that they themselves are not romantic tragiheroes. If, deep down, they have the same reservations about their OP, they may not enjoy hearing the catcalls of others - may indeed flounce away, wounded - but chances are that the affirmation of their judgement will stick with them.

I suspect most WSs who post have lurked for a while and have a good idea what they are going to hear. They post because, at some level, they want to hear it. Whether they can deal with it in the moment is another matter.

I often wonder how many of the wounded flouncers come back months later under a different name, to ask for help with revelation/rebuilding?

TA

Outstanding post, TA.

IMNSHO, identifying and treating the average WS as a victim of abuse is misguided, unwise, foolish and generally imprudent.

The WS is not the victim. The WS is the perpetrator of the abuse!

OK, so they joined with a co conspirator to carry out the abuse. That just makes it all the more heinous.

The WS and the OP are both scoundrels.

So, what does an abuse counselor say to the abuser, anyway? Oh, you poor misunderstood abuser?

On MB, we certainly should deal the cards when they are the most effective. And we should call a spade a spade.

This reminds me of when our first MC after FWW’s first affair didn’t want us to use the word adultery. Someone please tell me the neutral pc word for adultery and its devastation.

That MC was a lot of help, BTW. 14 years of more or less continual adultery later.

Carrots and sticks, I suppose. Even in language. But carrots rarely work with WS.

With prayers,

he so mean!! WAAAAAA!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

Who, me? Not trying to be. I can't help it. I was abused.

Is you a victim, honey? **snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />