As I peruse the board and the lastest happenings, I am convinced more than ever that "phone" counseling is frought with too many shortcomings. I am a physician with alot of experience and this type of therapy is starting to really bother me. While I fully realize comparing what I do and what Dr and Mr Steve Harley do is not comparing apples to apples, I still think what is "lost" in the phone translation is huge and UNDER appreciated here. I realize that getting personal one on one in person MB "approved" marriage counseling is not realistically feasible for everyone but I think the continued reliance on the $185.00 phone call for all guidance is kind of ridiculous........ESPECIALLY when people are using the "plan A" as personal or interpersonal counseling NOT marriage counseling.

I think the experience with a certain poster here who's situation is the "hot" topic now is a serious example of what can go wrong in this instance. When we have people call our office with "phone" questions and there is anything even remotely concerning, we have them COME in for a personal look. The clues that can be picked up in body language and just demeanor are striking....all of that is lost with a telephone conversation. There should be NO substitution for face to face therapy (akin to me examining my patients in an office).

I am not really suggesting anything, but for people to have "another" REAL LIFE source who can give them the 100% in face value of therapy they need. Steve Harley's paid and business and livelihood is to call his office and for him to give you advice on what you need to stop your divorce and find a way to "survive" the marriage. I think his methods for this work, but it is not the saving holy grail experience that suggest usurpt many other forms of therpy that may be availbale to us.

OK. more on this latter. That was my 1st contribution in a while, so want to get back in the swings here.

LM

You were right about that one. I should have listened to you.

THIS IS AN HISTORICAL MOMENT, DON'T CHA KNOW!!!

I don't agree with this at all. In fact, my sister who is a nurse, is in counseling with Steve Harley and claims that she feels FREE-ER to be honest with Steve than she does with an in-person counselor. This is the first time her H has responded to any counselor, which surprised her greatly. He is much more at ease calling from HIS OWN safe turf, according to her.

People can and do deceive counselors every day in person, it is very common. Some of the most gullible people I know are counselors and they certainly can't read "body language." sheesh, most don't know their [censored] from a baloney sandwich, I am sorry to say. Alcoholics can and do lie to them ALL THE TIME; they never pick it up. [and then come to AA meetings and laugh about it]

Phone counseling doesn't change that. There is no built in guarantee with ANY counseling that the person will be honest so that is an unrealistic expectation.

And I believe that the person in question - the "hot" topic - has not been honest with her OWN IC about this either. So phone counseling did not enable her to lie.

I do know that many here have gained 10X from phone counseling what they ever gained from in person counseling. So, if phone counseling has any disadvantages, I have not heard of any over all the years I have been here.

Rather, folks here have benefited from some very brilliant counselors that they normally would have never found in their own area, because the Harleys do phone counseling. You simply can't get that quality and expertise in your average counselor. Most know nothing about infidelity and are not pro-marriage. Many are long lost in the maze of psychobabble. They cause more harm than good.

So, these are the reasons I am utterly thankful that the Harleys do phone counseling. They would never be available to most of us if they didnt.

OT!! Mimi, can you please email me ASAP at don'teatdirt@aol.com I have some urgent news. Thanks!

I wasn't talking about the phone counseling, BTW.

Of course, I fully support Mel's point of view about that.

Steve Harley helped me more than any face to face therapist that I ever had.

Mimi, did you see my last post? Thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You've got mail. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lem, here is a pretty good article from Dr. Harley about the history of phone counseling and his experience:

"The advantages of telephone counseling over in-office face-to-face counseling are startling. The primary advantage is that you can counsel with someone that is simply not available in your area. Some communities have no trained marriage counselors, and telephone counseling is the only way to get help. But even in large metropolitan areas, it is sometimes difficult to find someone trained in a particular method that you trust.

The convenience and privacy of the telephone are also tremendous advantages. Getting to and from a counseling office can sometimes take hours, and you never know who you'll meet in the waiting room! Telephone counseling, on the other hand, is something that does not even require a baby-sitter. Most of my clients are able to entertain their children with a video while they are talking to me.

The idea that a counselor's physical presence is essential to counseling success is simply not true. In fact, I've discovered that I can help people by telephone that I could never have reached in person. They were either too embarrassed to come to an office, or not motivated enough to make the trip. But by telephone they get all the help they need with complete privacy and very little initial effort. And the results are dramatic. "

entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7200_phone.html

Dr. Lemon.. I seriously think in *this* situation that Jennifer or Steve can not be blamed for this going in the ditch...

They are the experts in this method of rebuilding marriages... not sure how many counselors in real life are familiar with the marriage builders plans... if those are the avenues that the wounded are following - just makes sense to talk with the drafters of those plans...

Plus, on top of all the advice and support from the message boards and the books -- it is an opporunity for those in pain to be heard....

I do see your point though.....

Lem ~ I think marital coaching over the phone has its benefits and its drawbacks.

I found the Harley's phone counseling well worth every penny I paid. My husband was a busy VP of a company and found that scheduled teleconferences with Steve were very convenient, and nonthreatening. My husband is very action oriented, and didn't want to be diagnosed - he wanted action items.

However, I wholeheartedly agree that there are cases (many!) that require a face to face, eye to eye, in person relationship.

I work in a global, multicultural company with over 10,000 employees. I participate on teams that are located all over the world. Telephone and email is the cornerstone of working together. I can say absolutely without a doubt that while I am able to collaborate over the phone and email with someone I have never met, that meeting that person face to face adds an entirely new dimension and increased quality in my working relationships by giving me a better frame of reference - I know their style after spending time, watching body language and facial expressions..things that I miss over phone and email.

I make it a point to get overseas at least once a year, simply because I need to look my colleagues in the eye and renew my personal relationships.

If counseling requires, as it does many times, a serious diagnosis, then I think a face to face meeting is critical. While I agree with ML that the addicts of the universe are good at manipulating, but that doesn't make the point less valid.

The Harleys don't offer counseling or therapy. They offer coaching. They are action oriented. Their particular approach is a good one for medium they choose.

I think however that in many cases, IC should also be used in conjunction with the Harleys and THAT person should be face to face.

"Pretend" is harder with a real live person staring you in the face. But I think that real live person should be an honest to goodness therapist and providing individual counseling.

Hi Lemon,

I remember way back when when we both got the f/u post from a certain special someone because we dared to imply WH might not be coming back...hmmm...

I agree with Carnation...

This didn't happen because phone counseling is invalid. It happened because the person involved wasn't truthful and manipulated people.

That can happen over the phone, face to face, or in the forums!

MAZ (MomtoAandZ)

I think the phone counseling is great. It is cheap compared to regular counseling by marriage counselors who are not experts in infidelity. My ex and I went weekly to marriage counseling to the tune of $400. a pop. Nothing got solved, because he didn't volunteer that the reason he was never around was because he had a lover. The counselor never asked, and I was to naive to suspect it.

I do think folks should go to a regular counselor to work out the problems in the marriage apart from the affair, after the affair has ended.

I never did the phone counseling thing

HOWEVER ... it has a darn good track record around here ... even on marriages that I thought had one foot in the grave & the other on a banana peel (Mortorman in particular)

I think the big ace is finding a counselor who values marriage

and who understands the dynamics of infidelity

Right now, I believe phone counseling ~ at least in the sitch of an A ~ to be really almost invaluable...to me, anyways.

Now, this might *only* be because, generally speaking, most affairs follow the same script. Whatever the reason, counseling with Steve has actually given me hope.

Steve is advising both me and FWH to do things that would *not* come naturally, to either of us. Because dealing with and attempting to recover from an A doesn't come naturally to most of us.

Lemonman ~ most of the stuff that Steve and Jennifer hears is very mainstream, in regard to affairs. Like I said, all affairs follow the same *script*. I doubt that either of them have heard anything that shocked the he** outta them. While the A partners might think it's all *special* and that their affair relationship was "different", I would bet that neither Steve nor Jennifer are shocked or even surprised by anything that they hear. It's all the "same ol', same ol'". Affairs are affairs, are affairs...and on and on.

That being said, I believe that this is a really different sitch than a PCP or an OB/GYN or an ENT seeing a patient. When seeing a shrink, he doesn't need to *look* inside your mind in order to diagnose or even treat you. Other doctors ~ yes, they might nee to "see" where the pain/problem lies. Not so much with psych doctors.

Now, sure ~ people are capable of manipulating, lying to, and deceiving a phone counselor ~ but if they wanted to, they could do that to a face-to-face counselor as well. There's nothing to stop that person from doing that, however....if they're gonna do it, they're gonna do it via phone counseling or face-to-face counseling, doesn't matter.

Just MHO, of course. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

EXACTLY!!!

LM,

Interesting comment and one shared by many. However, I think you will find this interesting. In our newspaper, there was an article about phone counseling and how it was not accepted by many therapists. However, in the last few years it has become more and more popular and apparently is now recognized as being as affective as face to face.

The arguement against is that in phone counseling one cannot read the body language. But, the arguement for is that one does NOT get confused by mixed signals, and ones own biases are removed from the equation. Further, people feel freer to be honest. After all if they lie they only cheat themselves and will not get help.

In your profession, "hands on" is very necessary, and further most patients cannot really tell you what is wrong but they can show you where "it hurts". IN counseling the only REAL communication is verbal and sense a counselor is discussing things with their patient, "face to face" apparently is not nearly as important.

I was going to post earlier this weekend that I had seen this article, but your thread beat me to it.

Good to hear from again.

JL

LM,

I have done both. Face-to-face and phone counseling w/2 different MCs. SH was the one. It was only 1 session but it was enough to leave a lasting impression.

While our local MC was good and did a lot of additional support via phone, Steve's 1 phone session really made an impression on me. He was not so blunt and bold that it scared the WS. Instead the WS came off frustrated yet he couldn't deny that Steve allowed him (WS) to talk. He had to admit it was a 'fairly good session'. That's a compliment coming from a WS. LOL!!!

Ws didn't like Steve but my few (very few) minutes with Steve helped me cope with what was ahead. There was a lot ahead, more than I realized at the time.

Reflecting on Steve's session, helped a lot. For those who lived through those months with me here on MB may recall my bouts of anxiety attacks, threats of suicide (from WS, OW and yes, even myself) and many other challenges.

I never went on AD's, could have maybe should have but never did. Instead I used what I learned here, tested my faith to lengths I never want to experience again and still survived. I experienced where real support comes from and learned never to underestimate those sources. They were all timely but varied in condition, source and content. Big and little, they all helped. Some sources were known and expected, others came as a complete surprise.

The inner will to survive is strong.

I agree with JL about different methods of diagnosis needed depending on the type of case being treated. Phone counseling can work or not. The bigger part is up to the recipient.

Phone counseling is one source of support. I recommend it. I don't like the price but the cost of not utilizing it c/b much higher.

JMHO,
L.