Then take advice from someone who KNOWS about recovery. Bubblebath does not. She cannot even help herself. You don't need to understand how a foghorn thinks to recover, you need to know how to bring her to recovery. On the other hand, LousyGolfer is a FORMER WS who does know all about recovery and is well versed in MB principles. He knows what he is talking about.

I am not trying to prevent you from getting help, but this is the equivalent of asking a falling down drunk how to get sober. I am trying to point you to the FORMER falling down drunk who knows how to recover.

I am sorry you have to be here, my friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm greatful to both you and LG for taking the time to help.

I get it that I need to make it all about me... it's just that it sucks, feels unfair, and LG is right... I keep raising the hurdle.

My WW will sometime give me a weak hug back (which is better than last week) and will give a peck on the lips. She seems engaged and really willing to try and have fun again. She will even occassionally respond with an ILY if I initiate it (though, not all the time).

I do think she is testing me. She is convinced I can't change.

I just want to make sure we don't get stuck here... in this interim point where we act like friends.

I'd like to discuss more meaningfully what she needs or would like to see in our marriage but she can't articulate this very well other than to say she isn't happy and feels 'like part of her disappears around me' but nothing concrete.

I'd like to initiate a more concrete discussion but don't want to hound her and don't want to infringe on fun times either.

Sound like there is nothing I can do but work on me and wait and hope?

MelodyLane,

Relax will ya? You are starting to sound like a priest of the Spanish Inquisition.
Did the news reach you that they haven't burnt witches on the stake for quite a few years now?
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

BB,

I think your words on this thread were right on target, and probably served a very useful purpose. ML has the better point, even so. A broken clock is right twice a day. If you were so astute in examining relationships and such an excellent judge of character and motivations, you would not currently be in an active state of waywardness.

Physician, heal thyself. Only after that will you be able to offer reliable assistance to others.

That is a good thing. But, beware of setting expectations for anyone other than yourself. Failed expectations lead to anger. Anger is dissapointed hope. Vicious cycle.

It's all about you, man. Liberating, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Peace.

LTH:

Heres a place to start:



Initiate. Initiate, Initiate!

Do you want to get stuck? Put it in four wheel drive and drag this M out of the MUD!

IF you wait for her, it will take a long time. But if you lead, she will follow. I guarantee it.

Not high pressure. (I like the fingers drumming analogy) But more like the gentle push of the river current. Constant and always there. W in kitchen? Walk up behind her and give her a "big bear HUG" and tell her: "I'm so glad your here!" Hold that for 2 seconds longer and if she turns to face you, tell her you love her. And do it often. Not in the sense that suddenly you start tracking her down to do it, but at least three times tonight. And then at least three times each day this weekend. Vary the Saying: "Thank you for Lunch" Thank you for taking care of the kids" "Thank you for "something she did today" and certainly use the "I'm glad your here! line again and often
She may struggle the first couple of times, and be real surprised the first time. But, DO IT. It works.

Her shoulders may even slump after the first 4-5 times it happens and she knows it is coming. So WHAT. These bear hugs represent so much, and THAT is what her shoulders slump. When they stop slumping, you will know she is beginning to round the bend.

Dr Harley recommends 15 hours a week for a couple to fall in love. Start planning on it.

And how about some more info about you.

How many kids, ages?
Your age and hers?
Relationship prior to M?
Job status?
Work issues?
How involved in the home are you?

Strap in. The ride is beginning to get interesting...

LG

F - Thanks. This is exactly what I am doing... setting expectations of her which I can't control and which lead me to anger. I need to focus on being fun and having peace with myself and see if she comes along.

Yesterday you asked me this:
>>>
Can I ask how you discovered subsequent As and what her underlying rationale is? I'm a small bit concerned I am being naive as to whether this can happen again. Does she understand the impact to her kids? Esp if you split? Does she care?
<<<

I discovered when my gut told me something was wrong and I snooped. She definitely feels bad now about the effect it almost had on the kids. As far as "rationale" I don't know, I don't think an A is a rational thing (just look at what bb seems set on doing again and how she can talk herself into it being "right"...). Just know that "the effect it might have on your kids" is not necessarily enough to protect your marriage.

You need to work towards the point where you both are filling each others ENs and not LBing (angry outbursts, disrespecful judgements, selfish demands). Listen to the advice you're getting and implement it. I literally made a *list* of the things I was going to do each day to try to meet her ENs. After a while those things become habits.

LG - Thanks for the uplift and encouraging words, really needed sometimes.

I'd initiate all day long but don't want to hover over her but thanks for the encouragement to not stop initiating, either.

15hrs a week seems impossible... plus, me demanding time alone with her has been a longer term problem with us in the past. She feels I've been too possessive of her time (partly revisionist, partly true) so me suggesting this will come across as being too possessive again. I'm trying to gently make it happen without asking but it is not easy.

About me:
3 kids: G9, B7, B5
Me 38; Her 39
Married 14yrs
DDay: Jan 16, 2007
NC: Jan 17; Jan 17 (she sent him an email later that day which I found); in tact

I've been progressively better behaved and very good for 2.5wks (sounds like I am describing a dog!)

Worked together; friends for 6months, dated 2yrs; married at 2.5yrs

I have very demanding job 50-60hrs/wk; issue is the number of hours... too much; don't love my job but pays well, secretly, I think I'd like to get laid off...

Despite hours, I am more involved at home than many Hs I know. W agrees and thinks I am good house partner and parent. Help with housework and kids; oddly enough, turns out this was a source of M problems as I had unrealistic expectations on what should be level or order in the house... I would come home and straighten up for 45mins and be annoyed. W took this as me telling her she wasn't good enough to keep a good home. She's right.

Other: Ws mom is twice divorced so no great role model for her to lean on. I think she has residual issues of never being good enough for her parents which have been projected on me... again, some I deserve, some I don't. I try to give her praise but don't think she sees it as genuine. Part of the problem is she doesn't seem inclined to think I can truly change

Can't distinguish my gut from paranoia... mind if I ask how you snooped? I monitor email, cell and have OM's known ph#'s blocked from our landphone. Only contact she can have is in person, hidden cellphone, email account outside of house.

I can never cover all the bases and eventually need to trust her.

Do you think it sets us back if I simply ask her if she has had any contact with OM?

Even if you're only getting 10cents on the dollar for your praise, etc, you still need to keep doing it. I never used to tell my wife how attractive I thought she was (even though she drives me crazy) when I started doing it, yep, I got no credit for a loooong time. Long term consistent improved care for her is what you're going for even if she is not seeming to believe it. Actually som WS's will even get annoyed that you're being so nice *now* but you still need to keep it up. Don't force or demand anything though.

You seem to have the methods down. Snooping is needed when you get that feeling that something is really going on, otherwise you should be focusing more on the positive steps to repair the marriage.

To be honest, I can't really give you a recommendation here, you have to trust your own judgement. But my feeling (not being in your shoes) is that you should back off and focus on the positive "plan A" stuff.

NG - Thanks for this... you and I seem to have such a similar profile it encourages me to see you doing well.

How long after last NC until affection returned?

LTH:

I'll start with this:



You work 50-60 hours a week? I'm a CPA. I work 80-90 hours, Sun-Sat thru April 15.

And 50 hours a week afterward. Huge Strain on my W. She wants me to go to work for the "Dark Side", the IRS.

Cushy Government Job.

Whatever.

However, lets do the math:

Work: 60 Hours
Sleep 42 Hours (with W?)
Commute: 10 hours

There is 168 hours a week, and I have accounted for 112 of them. That leaves 56. You can't give up one fourth of that time to spend Undivided Attention U/A with your W?

You can do it. Pull out the calendar and schedule them. And until you do that, the rest wouldn't matter.

Are you involved with other organizations/things that take you out of the house? Quit.

Are you coaching your Kids Sports activities/and or school activities? You can do that. That's Family Committment.

OK. Lets talk lovebusters.

She is a stay at home mom, and you would come home and spend 45 minutes staightening up and be disappointed in her for not doing it.

If it annoys you that the housework isn't done, Do it, Smile and have fun the rest of the night with your W and kids.

Huge Lovebuster. You expected her to do it, to your standards. She also expected you to take out the garbage, wash the cars and make sure the roof didn't leak, etc. etc. Guess what? our house is a little messier now. But we spend alot more time together as H & W, and with our son.

Betcha the OM never wondered if the toys were picked up in the kids room....



Hovering would be looking at her with expectant eyes, and waiting like a puppy.

I recommend, go about and do what you need to be doing, and if your going from one part of the house to another, give her the bear hug, and then keep going. Three times a day. And compliment her on something specific. And Keep DOING it. She thinks you will never change. She never thought she would turn into a EA Slave. But she did. Show her your changes every day. One day, you will hug her, and she won't let go. Then your getting somewhere.

You have to start dating your W again. When was the last time you planned a date? No kids, Dressed up, You had a plan and you wanted her to be surprised? 13 years ago? 10 Years ago? OM would always finish the phone call or email with "I will talk/email/see you XXX" It builds anticipation. And desire. So. You plan it. And make it happen. She may be quite sullen at first, and she might be thru the entire date. Do not speak of the EA. Do not Discuss IT. Speak about the kids, your (our) future, what vacation you would like to take, let her take the lead and talk more... Light, Breezy, with a hint of seriousness.

She might not like the first couple of dates. But she will look forward to them.

No more NO TALK!

No, we can't afford a date night.
No, the babysitter is too much.
No, we can't even think about that, it's too expensive.

Because lawyers and stuff like that are much more expensive...

Start talking about your dreams with her. She might come out with some foggy stuff sometimes, but you talking about a future that includes her is some powerful stuff. And she might propose that you move to Alaska and live in a tent. So what. Go with it, have some fun.

Buy His Needs, Her Needs, (HNHN) and Surviving and Affair (SAA) from this website. No need to wait to go to Borders/bookstore/library. You will have it quicker and it's all yours.

Ah, today is Friday. You just got your Pink Slip. What now?

And this last quote:



My BS, demands time with me NOW! because its all she ever wanted. And I give it freely....

You can get there...

LG

LG - Thanks... huge uplift for the weekend, really appreciate the perspective and advice. Tough to come by these things since this isn't exactly something you talk about with family and friends...

LTH,

Don't think of the 15 hours as time spent "working on the relationship." Come up with fun stuff to do and ask her to do it with you. If you make it something she enjoys, she will likely be right there. This is what you did when you were dating before you got married, do it all over again now.

LG's explanation of how to find 15 hours in a busy schedule is great. But another way to look at it is like this:

15 hours per week = 2 hours 8 minutes 24 seconds per day.

This time is to be spent doing things together with:

No kids running through the room or shouting for Mom or Dad every two minutes.
No heavy discussions of the M or R issues.
No conversations that begin with "You always..." or "You never..."
No TV on in the room, unless you both agree to watch a movie together or some such.

When you schedule the 15 hours it should not be blocked in as "Spending time trying to meet her ENs" but "Date with W."

The more you do it, the easier it gets and the more enjoyable it becomes for both of you.

FWIW, my W told me last night that my biggest LB$ deposit this week came from doing her laundry while I was doing my own on Wednesday evening.

It is often the little things that get the most attention, both good and bad.

Mark

"How long after last NC until affection returned?"

That is a tough question. We actually went through a "honeymoon" period after the last DDay. That day was a lightning bolt to both of us that I don't think we'll ever forget. You can find the story on here if you want.

Over the past two years there were definitely many periods of time where I felt like I was doing everything and getting nothing in return. You're going to need to work on how well you're meeting her needs without expecting a lot in return. It was really difficult for me too and I had some self esteem problems when she didn't "want" me. I would withdraw emotionally from her and that would make things worse. You can even get over that so don't think negatively about yourself, just do your best to get the long term outcome that you want for yourself and your family.

I know exactly what you mean about not being able to talk about this stuff with anyone. Good luck this weekend!

LTH,

I hope you don't mind a chick jumping in here. You seem to have found a real ally in LG, so for the most part I'll let him guide you along, but do you mind if I show you something from a lady's POV? Now, I'm a BS...so I'm not so much in the fog that a WS get into...but I am a FEMALE. Am I correct to understand that the main point of your posts has been "WW has ended her EA and is not being affectionate with me yet and does not want SF. How do I get her to be affectionate and want SF?" I'm not being crass--just trying to succinct. Is that the main gist of it?

If so, look at what you wrote:

I truly am not trying to pick on you, but rather to make you think of something. There you are, a MALE person who would like to have an affectionate, physically intimate relationship with a female person. Would you, as a MALE person, be inclined to feel affectionate toward someone who said to you, "I can not find time for you in my life. My work is far more important than finding time to be with you. But when I want your time, I want to demand when and where you can go, HTL. And even though I don't value you enough to actually spend time with you, when I do come to see you, you better have things to my standards, or I will complain and act all put out that I have to do anything to make things meet my expectations."

See??

I'm not saying that's EXACTLY how you are...but if you were considering dating a woman, would you even give consideration to a woman who treated you that way? Chances are, you'd say HECK NO! Furthermore, you sure as shooting would not feel affectionate feelings toward her -or- want to hug and kiss her! If anything, you'd feel a little revulsion and want to get away.

Sooooo...like I said, I'm not suggesting that this is EXACTLY how you are or who you are today, but if you try switching the POV maybe you'd see what we're driving at. If you DID feel affectionate toward a lady, it would be someone who acted as if you were important to her...like she could not WAIT to be with you because you are so interesting...who thought you were smart, handsome, and funny...and who really enjoyed your presence. A woman like that would make you feel all warm and fuzzy and affectionate in no time, hey?

That is what we are suggesting to you.

In a lifetime, jobs come and go...but your spouse stays with you through everything. You tell me, which one is it wiser to invest time in? In a lifetime, children come and go...rooms get messy and get cleaned...trash builds up and gets taken out. But a SPOUSE STAYS. Where is the wise investment? Where is the priority? What is more valuable?

Thus, after considering all that I have written, I suggest to you that you become the kind of man who perpetually treats his wife as if he is dating her. Now, I'm not talking about alway staring into her face all googly-eyed (that's for teenagers! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />) I'm talking about taking the time to make the time. I'm talking about maybe finding a little hobby you are both interested in and doing some of that FUN stuff with her, without expecting sex or a clean house because of it (i.e., new DH and I both enjoy antique car shows, daytrips, and cooking...and we do 'em together just to have fun). Express how you are INTERESTED in her and how valuable she is to you, and then back that up by showing her with your actions. Finding 15 hours a week is easier than you think. New DH and I go to bed at 11pm each night and talk to each other for an hour...sometimes it ends in SF and sometimes just some good snuggling and kissing, but it's definitely meeting EN's!!! That's 7 hours a week. Then on the weekend we spend all of Sunday together doing "our thing". Sometimes kids are in the house with us, but we go to church, we plant flowers, we go to parks...Sunday is OUR DAY. That's from 10am to 11pm...and that's 11 hours. And then we talk from 11pm to midnight! So 7+11=18 hours...and we didn't even break a sweat!

You can do it HTL. Just determine in your mind how you WILL do it rather than how you CAN'T.

Your faithful friend,



CJ

Great post Faithful.

She likely won't be honest if you ask, so I wouldn't even bother. Just continue to snoop as best you can. Search her car for a secret cell phone. Don't afford trust to her until she has earned it.

Is the OM married and have you exposed to his wife, if so? That is one surefire way to end an affair and make sure it stays that way.

Trust your GUT.