We were posting at the same time!


I get what you are saying, but I see this as different from the tummy incident, how I wish now that I would have picked a different example, lol. Did he say your eyes needed to be worked on so that he would find them more attractive?

I will admit, my tummy is a sore spot for me. I am petite and probably 5lbs under what the experts think I should weigh, but I could do thousands of ab crunches and never have a 6 pack. The pooch is there to stay and I don't like it at all. So when he said that, I hated that he felt I needed to work on something that I found unattractive and was uncomfortable with too. Plus, I knew there was nothing I could do to make it more attractive to him. So I become even more aware of it and now I have to figure out some way to hide it from him. I've been uncomfortable in front of him since.


What do you mean?


So, I just need to accept that he lies. It isn't about me. He lies because of him. Don't take it personally.


How do I do this? Where do I look?


This is all me, but this is how I feel. I don't think he choses to stay because of me. I think he stays for other reasons.....because he does not want to end up like his parents, because of our children, because things aren't that bad.

I do want my marriage to thrive, I just don't see how right now.

Ruby,

Posting at the same time...does that mean you owe me a coke, or I owe you one?

I'm giving you all I got, Ruby. I understand wanting to pick another example after it seems your listener doesn't get it...

I know you hurt when he said. He thought you should work on your tummy and because you believed already, without him saying a word, that you didn't like your darn tummy (and had to live with it after trying everything) that you DARN sure didn't want him to reinforce that! Ack!

See where your own belief causes YOUR pain, please. "He shouldn't have said that" means your fantasy is to control what he should and shouldn't say...you don't want to know all his stuff...his thoughts, feelings, beliefs, perceptions or perspectives...only the ones which don't hurt you.

Wow...isn't that what he tells you? That he doesn't wanna hear your stuff? Could this be where you're doing it back, to him, therefore hurting like crazy when he does it to you? A signal...not a condemnation.

Ruby, who are you? Where do you end and others begin? You say you choose to love and act from love AND you choose to earn and expect to be loved in returned.

What if you really suck at earning love? Since you have no control over whether anyone loves you at anytime in your life...wouldn't believing you could earn it be a fantasy?

We all accept lies...they are stated...they are said. They exist. We do not all choose to believe lies...nor ever approve of them. We cannot control others' lies...no matter how many shoulds you wanna throw that them or what hill you're willing to die on to get another human being to stop (or start) doing, thinking, feeling. believing, perceiving or viewing anything...

No one is that powerful on earth.

You only control your response to lies...where you tell the truth...you don't say, "Oh, how was your day?" and bait them into lying by omission...you play straight..."I know you worked a half day and played golf the rest of the day. How was it? Good score?"

You aren't his mother, Ruby. He may see you as his mother...don't trick, bait, anything...be open and honest...because you CRAVE for others to be open and honest with you. Your craving will drop dramatically when you are O&H.

"But this is how I feel" says you aren't respecting your own feelings. You want me to tell you what you feel is right...and it's not...it's valid, not right. Your feelings are signals to YOU about YOU from YOUR beliefs.

You CHOOSE to believe he doesn't stay married to you for you. OUCH...that's a painful belief to choose. We call those DJs...is that what he says? "I don't stay for you. I stay because I don't want to be like my parents and I love my kids. You? I just use and discard."

Are these his statements? I actually heard this from my WH (in different words) in his recommitment to our marriage statement. That's about him, not me...hurt like CRAZY...my entitlement, built from my resentment, kicked into high gear...because my belief was he would always feel this way. Then I heard the "always" in my head, about a week later, and realized, that was not possible. Feelings are temporary...they deliver their signal and drop off. They are information messengers. And once I got where my belief was kicking my own butt...we got on recovery.

And I'm treasured, cherished, his number one priority, loved beyond imagining to me)...and he didn't change himself...he changed his beliefs.

I changed mine.

We only own our own stuff. I had as many unreasonable beliefs (my DH married me only out of convenience) as I did expectations (he shouldn't say, think, feel or believe that way). They kicked my butt.

They are kicking yours.

And they are all you have within your control. Not his choices, your own.

More books to recommend...Facing Love Addiction and Codependency No More.

Are you still in counseling? I didn't see where you acknowledge your H is paying for it. He paid for it. So did you. Same with the membership. This was that thing where I saw the example of not only getting what you want, when you want it (you got that), but in the way you want it as well (for him to be excited, approving, understanding of your desire for IC).

Maybe it's just me.

And "Getting the love you want" by Harville Hendrix. Your H might like to read this one first...because he doesn't want to end up like his parents...and you are his parents, his siblings, his earliest best friends and biggest influences.

And he is yours.

90% of marital issues aren't to be solved...they are to be understood. DJs, AO's, SD's (they have "shoulds" all over them) get in the way of understanding.

Strive first to understand, then be understood.

Develop your own code. That adage I just shared was one I put in my code...my goal. I feel like I haven't met that goal in regards to you...I relate too much to your statements, your life, what you're describing. I assumed you'd have an eye-popping ephiphany with the resentment timeline because I did. That's a DJ. I apologize. I do that a lot...that exercise changed my life...led me to see where I projected so much, focused so much on earning my way in life that I discounted and negated my own existence.

You are significant, valuable and worthy.

Doesn't mean anyone will make you feel significant, valuable or worthy. And I can guarantee no one will be able to, with all their might, no matter how significant, valuable or worthy you are to them...if you don't know you already are.

We got rid of the shoulds in our marriage--tossed it out with the blame. We either do or don't do...my DH catches his own shoulds, as well...which is how we own our lives. Our marriages. No shoulds...we either do or don't.

Another truth I discovered ('cuz I'm really slow) was that humans do not do anything they do not want to do...there is no such thing as true sacrifice. Which is why I believe you choosing to believe your H doesn't stay married to you for just the kids, just to not do what his folks did. He has a higher payoff with you, than without you, in a thousand ways. Narrowing it to a few doesn't change reality...he remains complicatedly human. We all are. When you find yourself flattening a three-dimensional complex human into two-dimensions, then you have degraded and discounted, and most likely, you will feel degraded and discounted.

What you do to others, you will do to yourself.

What you will not do to yourself, you won't do to others.

That's a code God built into us humans in our design.

Get to know your human design...your power and limits...know what you're giving away, putting onto others, and taking from them (your power, their power).

Put your focus on your own honesty...focus on making sure you're living up to acting O&H...not H. Which is why when he lies, you state the truth of his actions...and don't dwell. When you dwell in his stuff, you negate your own. You are literally ignoring your self...which is why we then feel the urge to hear our self defined by others...and live in a world of hurt, every day.

LA

Trust me, me wishing I had used another example is all about my dislike for my tummy and here I am talking about it over and over again. lol.


Yes, I do see why his comment hurt me because I already felt negatively about it and his comment confirmed what I believed for me. So what do I do with the knowledge that he finds something about me unattractive and needs work? How do I feel comfortable around him when I am paranoid and worried about what he is thinking?


This got me thinking. You are right. If I want him to share then I need to accept all he wants to share, even when it is negative about me. Unfortunately, the only sharing I hear are negatives about me. I will definitely need to pay more attention to not only letting him share ALL his stuff but also look to see other things he is sharing that isn't about me.

And in order for his views about me not to hurt, I need to realize those are his truths and not necessarily facts. But in this one incident it is a fact, so what do I do? Accept that it is what it is and try not to let it slow me down from moving forward.


I don't know, but I'm trying to figure it out.


When he has been caught in lies, it isn't because I baited him. I found out afterwards. He would trip himself up, or someone else would or some thing would.


No he has never said this. They are my assumpitons based on how I read his actions towards me. So if that is a DJ, wouldn't assuming the opposite be a DJ too? Or is it only a DJ when it is negative?


But it took him to make you these things, right?


Yes I still am. And yes, I got what I wanted when I wanted it because I wouldn't let his opinion affect my decision on IC. I was still hurt by his reaction, didn't get it in the way I wanted to, but I wouldn't let it affect my decision.


I will be sure to add that to my ever growing list. I've never read so much in my life! lol. My H has told me he isn't interested in reading any of these types of books. I do keep them on the bookshelf in case he ever changes his mind.



I am working on this too.


I'm trying. It's a slow process, but I'm trying.

I hope you have a wonderful weekend. And I hope you aren't as frustrated with me as I am with myself. You really are giving me lots to think about and new ways to view old stuff. Thank you so much.

Rubydoo,

I want to thank you for this thread. I understand a lot of what you are saying here and your dialog back and for with LA is really helpful. Keep hanging in there, you will get there. It's a lot of hard work but will be worth it in the end even if it's hard to see that now. The questions regarding how you feel about his comments about your body and his lieing are some of the same issues and frustrations I have had. I am however learning, many things from this thread.

LovingAnyway:

I want to thank you for your responses to Rubydoo's questions. They are helping me with some of the very same things I am dealing with. I am looking at things in a different way thanks to some of your responses. Some of them are difficult to wrap one's mind around however once the wrapping begins it seems to make more sense.

Again I thank the both of you.

Ruby,

Hey, we got a few laughs out of the tummy example, didn't we?

"Yes, I do see why his comment hurt me because I already felt negatively about it and his comment confirmed what I believed for me. So what do I do with the knowledge that he finds something about me unattractive and needs work?"

What do you do with the knowledge of your own internal comments and beliefs about a part of your living being you feel negatively about? Something you cannot change.

"How do I feel comfortable around him when I am paranoid and worried about what he is thinking?"

What are you going to do about focusing on his stuff more than your own? We feel most paranoid when we are persecuting ourselves. Doesn't mean someone isn't out to get us.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Where your thoughts dwell, there is your treasure. Are you treasuring worry and fear? Then they will rule your life. You will act from them and experience a worrisome and fear-filled life. Your choice.

I have large hands. I had a guy when I was 17 say that I should never put my hands to my face because they make me look deformed. I dwelled in that belief for a long time...until my DH said he thought them elegant hands.

Are we to be dandelion fluff in the wind, feeling this way and that over what others say? Or is our responsibility to define, accept, and act from our wholeness...not pick ourselves apart...disowning or rejecting this or that.

What if you feel a lot of rejection in this world from FOO and your marriage, and soon, your children, because you reject parts of yourself, feeling it comes from others?

We don't stop at the physical...we have a lot more layers of ourselves to pick to pieces...we have past deeds and undeeds; remorse and regret; we have villagers inside us. On "Owning All Your Villagers" thread, many people did the exercise to find out what is within them, by determining what really gets to them the most in others. Using projection to grow from. It's how I got to how rejectful I was...because the more rejecting I was of myself, the less accepting I was...it was the fodder that fed my resentment engine, the fantasy.

Your tummy is not a fact...it is an opinion. The only fact is that it is YOUR tummy. Beautiful or misshapen, bulging or caved in...it's a tummy. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder isn't a truth to discard or reject. Embrace it. Beauty is an opinion. It's what we perceive through our own filters. Love your tummy, feel your tummy loved. That's it. I believe all of our physical being is representation for our emotional, mental and spiritual. All tied together...not a fact.

Where I shifted my maniacal focus was on what my body does...it embraces, lifts up, slaps down, connects, abides, gives birth, takes air, feels love and is present through all my choices.

"No he has never said this. They are my assumpitons based on how I read his actions towards me. So if that is a DJ, wouldn't assuming the opposite be a DJ too? Or is it only a DJ when it is negative?"

You get to choose what you believe...you are married. Fact. Your H chooses to stay married to you, for better for worse. He chooses. Recognize his choice as well as your own. You're not in this alone. You may experience being alone in it...you are not. Your perspective is imbalanced from your beliefs right now. Balance it by ferreting out the hurtful, harmful beliefs you have...they are yours. Find out where they are not reasonable...same with your expectations...and you will find that not knowing is okay, too.

Does your H state he loves you? You choose to believe him or not. If you hold onto a statement he made years ago, why not to a healthy, loving one?

"But it took him to make you these things, right?"

No, I had to do it first. I had to realize I was whole, made marvelously and equally to my H...separately from him. I had to cherish being a creation of God, make me number one which came from making my marriage number...and my DH, because we are simultaneously half the marriage; took me loving myself, as is, right now, all of parts and pieces...and knowing I am significant, I count, matter and am worthy.

"Yes I still am. And yes, I got what I wanted when I wanted it because I wouldn't let his opinion affect my decision on IC. I was still hurt by his reaction, didn't get it in the way I wanted to, but I wouldn't let it affect my decision."

Do you see this as improvement? You chose to not make his opinion determine your choice. You made a healthy choice. Kudo yourself, woman!

And thank you for sharing your wish that I'm not as frustrated as you are right now with yourself. I was feeling frustration...which comes from my expectations to hand around ephiphanies, one after the other, and for lives to suddenly change in a second. How reasonable is that?

LOL

Guess I perceived your frustration and made it my own...see? This is the process...contagious signals, lots of overlap and mess. Beautiful mess. Lovely journey. Remains my privilege that you chose to include me, respond and share so honestly. I hear you're committed to finding out how to choose new perceptions and perspectives...new thoughts and beliefs...you're working on it. Without a lot of light bulbs going off...doesn't mean they won't. You'll find your way, Ruby.

And I, too, hope your holiday weekend is fun and enjoyable...connective and has a lot of laughter in it.

LA

Bjs,

Thank you for your post. You reminded me that others read, as well. I get into that disheartened spiral where I question my own stuff when I hear I'm a fraud...and it lingers...have to ferret it out. Find where in me I heard and thought it from before.

I lurked for four months before posting. And even now, I read a lot of threads I don't post to...which is why I believe what we struggle with here ripples around the world.

When I spiral, I forget. Thank you for the reminder. We're all in this life together.

LA

bjs,

I am so glad someone else is benefitting from all this wonderful advice LA has been giving me.

Please feel free to chime in at any time!

Good morning LA and anyone else reading. Hope your weekend was as beautiful as mine. My H and I spent a lot of the weekend putting in a sprinkler system. If that qualifies as "time spent together", then we certainly got in our 15 hours this week.


In the past, I would beat myself up over things I found negative about myself. I started IC and moved from that to trying to convince myself that it didn't matter and ignoring it, but there was always that low simmer of negativity on the back burner. I try to be very aware of my negative self-talk so that I can stop it. I also try to remind myself of my positives. I do this, but I don't necessarily believe it. I know the negative self-talk isn't healthy, but I believe it is true.

This has been one of the main issues in IC for me. I am a perfectionist. Which would also explain why I have a hard time forgiving myself on a number of issues, some in my control and some not.


I don't know. I know that a lot of my issues with my H and my M stem from me. What I think and believe about myself. I know this. I just don't know how to change that way of thinking. I know that if I loved myself, truly loved myself, I would be more accepting of my H and his love for me. I wonder if I loved me then my eyes and heart would be more welcoming of the ways my H does love me. Right now, I feel that I am not enough and the love my H does show me isn't enough.


For the most part, I have always lived with worry and fear. The what ifs. I can put on a good outside picture but on the inside, I am scared to death. I wake up in the middle of the night almost every night anywhere from 30 minutes to 3 hours stressing over the what ifs.


I am beginning to wonder if this is the truth of where I am today. I see all these issues I am dealing with, thinking others are the cause, but it is really me. Again, if I love myself, then I would be more accepting of the love others give me but I won't accept.


Oh boy, do I know how true this statement is. I am very hard on myself for my past. I do not forgive myself very easily, if at all. I do think I forgive others easier then I forgive myself though.


Again, I think all of this is tied into how I feel about myself. Maybe it isn't my H, it's me.

Why do I hold onto the negative statements? Because I feel those are the truth. Non-sugar coated absolute truths. He is saying what he really believes without tweaking it so as not to hurt my feelings or look like the bad guy.


Again, the whole loving yourself will open up the doors to others loving you. So, your H continued to love you the way he always did, but since you loved yourself you were able to accept and embrace this. He didn't change the way he loved you or showed his love for you. You changed the way you felt about yourself which also helped you to love the way he always loved you. Is that it?

I need a little romance outside of the bedroom. I need to be spoiled a little. I need affection. I honestly don't see how I am getting any of that right now, unless it leads to SF. How will accepting myself and loving the person I am change those needs?


I could tell, finally, what I was doing wasn't working. Time to change. And I don't mind hard work, thank goodness.

Thanks again LA. Even though I am still lost, I've seen a few sun rays thanks to your advice.

ruby...

you on one level are like Dorothy in the wizard of oz....

in your hands you hold all of the power you have ever needed to get you home or where you want to be...

and you just don't believe it...

you deny the basic principle that we all share ...that God doesn't make mistakes in creating us...

and that each and every one stand strong in the fact that he loves us unconditionally as no one else can....
in all our flaws....the superficial ones..the size of our stomaches...the shape of our noses or hair....

that width and flatness of our feet....

God's love transcends all of that....to the fact that in his eyes we are direct images of him..

and his your internal dialogue...of blah blah blah..

too sensitive
too this
too hurt...
always waiting to hear the negative wounding words from your husband...turning each thing over and over....

drowning in the paralysis of analysis...blocks you first from believing in GODS love of you..

your value
your worth....

and you block out your husbands ability to love you the way you want....

so that any attempt has to reach past all your barriers...

you want' romance...so this weekend when putting the sprinkler in were you romantic to him...
did you flash him when no one was looking...
did you put on music to make the burdon of work more fun...

you even deny that men "use" sf as their ultimate expression of acceptance and 'proof' of love....and say disparaging things like it all leads to SF...

dayum straight it does....cause that's part of the best part of Gods gift of love...

to change ....you should get down on your knees every day...
and begin to count your blessings...

humbly and with great thanks...cause the blessings on this earth.......in times of great strife for some....are great...for those that have....

you are in your own fog...
you have programmed your own thoughts to dwell on the negative...

and now you wait like a vulture...waiting to see the negative in all that goes on around you...

you create this out of insignificant remarks that you take and run...

I would bet my last dollar that 10 people could compliment your hair in one day...and one person could say something not as positive...and all the nice things will be erased from your brain...and you would dwell for hours on the one negative comment...


life is to short
to precious
to important to drown in the minutia of stuff...

you block the good fun stuff by not letting it in when it happens..
that deciding its not good enough

you block Gods love
you block your value and strength..

and you hurt your family by not letting them love you...

ruby...the time is quickly closing in on you..
when you decide enough is enough....

and you realize that alll the changes you want begin with you...
and your ablility to believe...
i know you want a different answer...but many many people on this thread keep telling you the same thing...

and you come back.... with example after example how this little thing or that little time didn't go exactly like some grand scene in a movie....

you block God's love for you from him and from others...

ARK

Ark:

It took me a longggg time to come to understand what you have written to rubydoo. For some reason I couldn't get it through my head. I have finally gotten there after to many years and many postings to different people. I sit here amazed at how thick my head was.

Ruby:

I do feel where you are for I was there for many years. My h told me how disgusting my stomach was from all the stretch marks and weight from having kids. I held on to this for years among many other things. I kept hearing the negative things and taking them for absolute truth, and ignoring the positive things my fwh was telling me. And everytime I would disagree with him I would hurt him. All's I wanted to do was hang on to the negative because ultimately I felt I was not worthy of the positive things he was saying and because I felt bad about myself.

It has taken me way to long to get some of what people are saying. And the one thing I have learned through everything we have been through is that no matter what I don't have to compete with anybody else for God's love. That HE loves me no matter what I look like. I don't have to be young, have the perfect body, always looking good. That God loves me just as I am. And you know what, once I finally truly understood that, it has opened me up to learn so much more. I am loved by the ONE who truly matters.

Now that I understand that, it has allowed me to take my eyes off of what my fwh is doing and put them on what I am doing in my marriage. I have been asking God to show me what things I am doing to hurt my marriage and not look at what my h is or is not doing. I have left my h to God. And over the past week, I believe that I have been very selfish in my marriage. To hold my h responsible for my negative feelings about my body. To want him to change because if he would just do this we would be better because after all I've done all the changing. This way of thinking has been hurting my marriage so much.

It doesn't mean that I don't slip because I do. However I hope that those slips will become less and less and farther apart and I will be able to pick them up sooner. Keep listening to these guys, keep trying, keep asking questions, keep praying. If I can finally understand some of these concepts I know you can.

Hey ark. I'm glad you are still with me here.

I love your Dorothy analogy. I'm sure it fits me to a tee. I just don't see how I have all the power, yet.


I'm not exactly sure how to post to this. I don't believe God makes mistakes in creating us and I certainly believe God loves us unconditionally. Maybe my problem is I think I believe this, but deep down I really don't or I wouldn't be so unforgiving or critical of myself. If I truly believed this, then other people's comments, opinions, views wouldn't matter so much to me and I wouldn't be so hard on myself.

Okay, let's say that is it. How do I change this train of thought I have had for so long?



I'm not sure what you mean here. Did you mean "and here's your internal dialogue"?


I want to say that I am not doing this because he is not doing that, loving me the way I want. I feel he loves me the way he wants to and I should accept it and dismiss the things I would like for him to do to show his love for me. That's how I feel, but I am not going to say that that feeling is right. I'm actually hoping that I am wrong.


No flashing during the sprinkler thing, but I do do this and other flirty things because I know he likes it and considers it romance. And there was music, the screaming kind he likes, which I could only take for a few hours before asking if I could put on something we both would like to listen to, which made me feel guilty as heck for asking. Hmmm, something else for me to think about.


I don't deny it. It's just frustrating to me. I accept, thanks to reading here, that sf to men is how they express acceptance and love, but it isn't how I express it. So I am suppose to accept this and act accordingly, but what I need and want can be ignored or dismissed.

I want him to show me he thinks about me during the day when we are apart. I want him to take the day off once in awhile from work to be with me, not just so he can play golf. I want him to take care of me when I am sick. I want to find a simple love note from time to time. I want to know he wants to snuggle with me JUST to be close to me and not expect gropes and let's head to the bedroom suggestions.

Is that wrong?


Yes, I definitely dwell on the negative.

But I don't believe remarks that hurt are insignificant. Although they may or may not be true, they still hurt and I don't see them as insignificant.

How would you handle negative remarks about you by your H?


You are probably correct.


Maybe I do want a different answer but only because I don't see how me changing is going to be THE answer. I know me changing will be the answer to a lot, but I don't see how it will be the answer to everything I am questioning.


I give the examples to get specific help with specific situations. So that I can learn how to handle such situations.

I don't expect my life to be some grand scene in a movie, but I would love to enjoy it.

What I hear you saying is that I should accept my H loves me how he wants to. It doesn't matter that it isn't the way I want to be loved. What matters is he loves me.

And I should not let any hurtful or negative comments be hurtful or negative. They are just someone else's opinion, not the truth.

I know that is a pretty simplistic breakdown, but is that the gist?

Hey bjs!

I really can see a lot of myself in the things you have said.

I can see how loving myself would definitely help with my negative self-image and help me dismiss any negative comments by my H.

I just don't see how me making all the changes is going to create this wonderful M. I feel like I would have to accept what my H is willing to give and dismiss the things I feel are important. I guess if I could do this, then it really wouldn't matter, huh?

Hey Ruby,

First off I want to let you know I feel where you are. Also I am no way as wise or able to put words out there as a lot of people on this web site. I just know that I do understand how you feel.

I do not believe that you dismiss the comments made by your h. Comments by others hurt and there is no denying that. It's holding on to those comments and those hurts that cause fractures in a marriages. It's acknowledging that what was said was hurtful, very hurtful in some instances, and then forgiving that person. It's not giving that person such incredible power to keep you in past hurts. How many times have I said something that unknowinly hurt my h. I know there have been many times, more than I'd like to admit. I want to believe that through all of this I am learning and growing and changing. I pray that my h can forgive me for the many times I have said something hurtful to him. I am finding out that men need respect.

In "Ephesians 5:33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband."

This is where I think we hurt our husbands by not respecting them. It gets into a vicious circle of them not showing us love and us not respecting them.

Ruby I'm not saying what your h does doesn't hurt or that you shouldn't acknowledge it. We all hurt each other at one point or other and we all let down one another at times. Let me ask you this, What do you do when someone other than your husband hurts you? Do you forgive them easier and why is that? Do we hold our loved ones at a higher standard?

For several years I have been very focused on getting the answers I say I need to move on. People kept telling me to focus on me and what I'm doing. I thought I was doing that. I thought if only my h would do these things we could move on, we would get better. If only he would stop hurting me, if only he would put me before his job, if only he would make this sacrifice for me, if only he would treat these other women the way I tell him. If only he wouldn't look at these other women, younger, beautiful and with an incredible body. If only he would do........

I have been fighting that battle for several years. I would come here ask a couple questions try a little, not really understanding, feeling like I was being asked to do it all without anything being done by him. I would ask the questions you are asking, feeling like I had been doing all the changing all the work. However that was very selfish of me. I was only concerned with what I was getting with the pretense of saying I'm doing it for him. It was not until this past month of more asking questions, of spending time giving it to God that I truly see what I was doing and what I need to be doing.

You know it was not until this weekend that I really saw what people were telling me. I had a discussion with JL and schoolbus on the recovery thread. I really tried to understand what they were saying. And at first it was like man I can't believe it I have to do more work. When JL told me that my h may not be the type to come after me to fight for me, that he may be more the type to let me go if that was my choice. I didn't understand that. I do now. I used some of the things they talked about this weekend. I apologized for being so selfish, I didn't bring up past hurts, and our discussion was incredible. He didn't stonewall me, he opened up some. WOW, I'm still feeling what happened yesterday. He then wanted to go do something with the kids and we had a great day. I felt free for the first time in a very long time.

Again it's not that you are not hurt, it is what you do with that hurt that will help or hurt you. Keep fighting to figure this out, keep asking these great people questions. You will get there step by step, however you are very much on the road to getting there.

I had a thought while driving to work this morning.

If I concentrate on me, being the best person I can be, giving to my marriage and my H, that's where I will find my happiness. What my H does or doesn't do won't matter anymore because I am creating on my own happiness.

And if that is the case, how will I feel closer to my H? Or does that usually come along when the above is reached?

I think the reason I am having such a hard time getting the concept you are talking about is I don't see how me being the only one to change is going to create this great M. I feel like I'm suppose to accept what my H is willing to put into this M and disregard the things I feel I need and want.

I realize I'm the only person I can control in regards to change, but I shouldn't talk to my H about how I'm feeling, what I'm missing? Doesn't that go against what everyone says about how important communication is in a M?

Really, I'm usually not this hard headed, believe it or not! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

ruby...

we are all attracted of confident fun people...full of life...

you will 'feel..." (again with the feelings...it's all about feelings with you......) close to him because he will engage in actions that make him want to get and be close to you....

not ALLL the time
not PERFECTLY alll the time...

but the majority of time in marriages where two people are pretty much happy with themselves...and NOT bogged down in minutia...paralysis of analysis....and pretty much happy each day......

those marriages.....contain two individuals...in the majority of their times....respecting,,,,loving and working together ....

not two people...waiting for one to say one wrong thing
not two people where one feels what's the point in trying/doing anything I'm always wrong any ways...

not two people who need every day to discuss an issue....

here's the best part about you...

you aren't really buying what we are selling though many different people are telling you basically the same thing in different ways......

and you want a garuntee....

BUT

ironically the fact is we do know that what you have been doing/trying isn't working....for you

but you are clinging to that....in reply after reply...

change is scary
we cling to the known...

imagine learning to love love love your tummy.....
if you think it's too this or too that....do what you can you to fix it...and then and only then when you love your tummy ...

one of two things can and will happen...

your husband will notice the "change" as well...
OR
he won't....

but the bottom line is you won't care...because you will like your tummy AND have gained a whole bunch of strength and confidence knowing YOU did it...

and then you will like your tummy..and still like your husband...because he is NOT part of the tummy equaision...

it becomes a non issue...not an issue that x number of years ago he said this or that.....about my stomache...
sheesh that's minutia...

changes we illicit in ourselves are often the greatest catalysts to illicit changes in others...

when first married I could use name calling in a fight like a truck driver...(or like how I imagine Melody lane....!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) just kidding..

our fights were childish name bashing fests....
and one day I took control of MY name calling..

cause it was wrong and hurtful...and all the spewing I was doing had nothing to do with my husband and was all mine to own...

so during fights I quit calling him names....

and he continued at first...but I didn't react and I didn't say anything about it...

then we had a fight and he said...well you called me an ##$^^% %$##^-hole....and I said no I didn't dear...in fact I haven't been using any names in our fights for a while now....

and then eventually he stopped using all the name callings.....

and our arguements became less vile...and even more productive....and much much shorter...we stayed on task...and didn't have days of sulking and pain over the stupid names we had torn eachothe down with...

now these days when we call eachother a name...in a rare arguement....and only when one is really really mad..
it actually diffuses the fight...
because it SOUNDS so foreign and so ridiculous to us...
we end up cracking up.....

I changed....


HE changed

WE CHANGED...without cohersion
without discussion long drawn out talks about how him calling me names really hurt.....blah blah blah..

I took action...

and my taking THAT action without a doubt...

brought us closer
matured our communication
matured our marriage....

and stopped a lot of powerstruggling painful cycle of being basically mean to one another....

It can and often is that simple.....
even though we want grandiose plans..and discussions...
sometimes it's the smallest thing that illicits the greatest changes....

ARK

Hey ark!


Well, if that's the BEST part of me, I have A LOT of work to do! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I realize what I am/was doing isn't working which is why I am here. I'm not clinging to how I have handled things in the past, I just work better with specific examples. Here is what happened, here is what I did, please tell me how I should have handled it. Like your name calling fights, which completely amazes me because you seem so in control of your feelings and still throw a name every once in a while. I totally see how you handled that situation and how it influenced your H to do the same.

Let me tell you how I have been at home for about the past few months. I have not brought up any conversations about my wants and needs. I have intiated more SF, more flirty behavior that he likes, such as flashes, grabs, emails about things to come. I have made a point to admire his work at home and at his job, telling him how proud I am about this and admire him for that. I have been very understanding when he needed to play a little more golf than usual or hang out with buddies, etc.

He seems to be eating all of this up, which isn't surprising because I am showing my love for him in ways he wants and needs. He seems very happy and I'm glad.

In turn, he flirts with me the same way. The way he likes to be flirted with, flashing me, grabbing at me, making suggestions, etc. Which really would be fine with me if he would just show me some affection in ways I enjoy.

Isn't that, the different needs of men and women, the whole concept of HN/HN? We have and enjoy different needs?

Maybe I do want a guarantee, although I know there isn't one. So I need to go into this on faith. Believing things will work out for the best.



Well besides surgery, my tummy is how it is. I just need to learn to accept it. I do get what you are saying here though. This is how I handled IC. My H thinks it is a waste of time and money, but I go anyway. And it has helped me out enormously. I'm proud of that. It stings a bit that my H isn't supportive of or interested in it, but there isn't anything I can about that. That's him.

Thank you again ark. I truly appreciate you taking the time to help me out here.

Another thought.

I have been going over in my mind about why I am having a hard time grasping what you all are telling me. Why I don't see it as clearly as I should and why I question if I am truly going to get what I want by doing this.

I am fighting with my wants/needs that aren't being met.

I say to myself that this is what I need to do, your advice. My unmet wants/needs counter back, "what about us. We are miserable here. We aren't getting a thing. Why are you going to give more while we aren't getting a thing."

So do I wrestle these unmet wants/needs to the ground? Do I not let them dictate this, because that is what I am struggling with here. Push them to the ground and hold them there while I concentrate on meeting my H's needs? And when I do this, they will stop struggling?

Right now it is a tug of war. That's what it feels like, a tug of war.

Ruby, I identify with you so much! I think the hope is that yes, your husband may change as a result of your changes, but even if he doesn't, you can still be happy.[/quote]


Ruby, I think you do get it actually. I think you just don't particularly like it! And in all honesty I haven't always been too fond of that scenario either. I know in my case I felt stepped on and taken advantage of during my childhood (like nothing I needed mattered) so when I got old enough to do something about it, I kind of swore to myself that I wouldn't get taken advantage of anymore. The problem is that can keep you from giving of yourself enough to have a great M. It does require a leap of faith, giving just because, without expectations, no quid pro quo.

That has been such a totally foreign and alien concept to me. I always struggle with how much do you give of yourself when you feel you're not getting back until you say enough is enough? It just seems completely logical to me to give and expect to get and not to keep giving when you're not getting.

This stuff is really hard.

The reality of it is though that is a selfish viewpoint. Growing spiritually means learning that you behave lovingly because it's the right thing to do, without expectation. I really believe it's a higher level of spirituality to come to the point where you can grasp that, and act from that.


I don't think there's anything wrong with sharing, it becomes an issue depending upon how and how often it is expressed I think. Change comes slowly, often very slowly, and men are generally not talkers. Overdoing it can turn into a lovebuster which defeats the purpose. I know I've done that in my case plenty. I think your or my H might feel they are making changes, even though we don't see them, or they seem minor, and pointing out repeatedly how they are still failing defeats the purpose.

You say you have cut back on that kind of talking a lot. I believe you. If you feel you need to share something, you can do it in a casual kind of way, there are lots of ways you can fit in one sentence about something into a conversation, or in an email about what to bring home from the store, just pop a sentence in there ("you know, something occured to me today...<share here>...by the way, I love you, ruby). Small doses.


I really don't think you are ruby...pretty much everything you've felt I have too, I completely understand. These thought patterns are so ingrained in us I believe, that it's not a matter of hearing the right advice/words once or a bunch of times and we've got it. We need to churn it, digest it...

Truthfully, I have seen some steps forward in my own M. Sometimes we take a few back. Unfortunately it's not a straight line. But hopefully we all keep moving in the right direction and eventually we'll get there!

MAZ

Hey MAZ! Thank you so much for responding, but also for making me feel not so alone with my thoughts. It is always very helpful to hear from someone who can relate.

Well, I had the perfect opportunity to apply my newly learned skills Wed and blew it! Guess they aren't so learned yet. But afterwards, I did recognize how I handled the situation the old way and how I should have handled it the new way. At least I recognized it, right? A tiny little baby step.

I will say, when the situation came about, it amazed me how quickly I was already in it before realizing I was handling myself the wrong way. It's hard to fight against letting my feelings direct me. Very old habit. After I "got away" from it, I was able to identify my feelings and how they were making decisions for me. I also thought about how I should have responded, with clarifying and confirming. Didn't do that, but maybe next time I will be more aware of taking control before finding myself in too far.



I completely get this. Doing something and expecting something in return is a selfish viewpoint. I don't argue with that at all. And I suppose that is where I am in my M. But where does the love bank fit in with all of this?

All be honest, my love bank is not empty or in the negatives, but it is at a very low amount. The things my H does do, like DS and FC, keeps it in the positive but that's it. These things don't help with my desire for him, which is really my biggest obstacle and the reason I started this thread.

And I could go on and on about what if this and what if that, but I've been doing that and not getting the answers I think I want. So, I'm going to concentrate on being the best wife I can be and apply the communication skills I've learned here. Hopefully, me changing will change other things.

Thank you again everyone.

I'm wondering if someone could help me out with this. I want to explain what happened Wed with my H, how I handled it, obviously the wrong way, and if I am correct about how I should have handled it.

I had to work later than usual on Wed due to problems I am desperately trying to figure out. I have been working on these problems for a few weeks now. My H knows how stressed I am about it.

My parents normally watch my children when I work, but were going out of town and could only be with them until 4pm because that was the time they told me I needed to have them picked up so they could leave. I asked my H if he could possibly get off work early to pick them up and be with them because I really needed to work. He said he could.

He calls me at work around 6 and wants to know when I am coming home. I told him I thought I would be here another hour. He said "Well, I guess we aren't going to walk tonight" with an annoyed tone. I told him no, but it wasn't because I didn't want to, I had to work. He said, "Well, I got off of work at 4 and your parents didn't even leave town until after 5 I could have worked" with the same tone. I told him I was sorry about that, but I was only going by what my parents told me, that they were leaving town and needed the kids picked up by 4. My tone was getting annoyed by now.

I took his tone and attitude very personal. The way he was speaking to me was very short and I felt like he was blaming me for whatever.

I told him again that I was sorry about the whole situation and that I would be leaving work by 7.

I got off the phone and my feelings were going wild. I was very angry and hurt because I felt like he was dismissing the fact that I was at work doing my job. In the past, he has made comments and had expectations that seemed to say my job wasn't as important as his or as demanding, which we have discussed before.

My feelings were definitely in control because I was ready to just forget all these changes I am trying to make. I was ready to just accept this is how it's going to be and that I should just emotionally detach from him. I told myself that I wasn't going to bother asking him to help me out with OUR children when I had work issues because it wasn't worth the guilt. These thoughts lasted until the next morning when I had calmed down some and started thinking about how my thoughts and actions were based on how I was feeling. I also was thinking about how I should have handled that phone conversation.

Should I have said I hear you are upset because I am working so late and we are not going to be able go for a walk. I also hear that you are upset that you got off of work early but feel like you could have worked a little later because my parents didn't leave town at 4. I would rather be walking with you then stuck here at work, but I am dealing with some pressing stuff here and trying my best to get it worked out. Also, when I asked you if you could get off work to pick the kids up by 4, I was only going on what my parents told me. I'm not sure why they didn't leave right at 4, I just know that is the time they told me to have the kids picked up.

If the above is the correct way I should have handled the situation and my H still had the same attitude, do I just ignore the attitude? Realize that is how he wants to see the situation and shouldn't continue to try to explain myself?