Ruby,


If you were to trade off, alternate weekend plans...and he didn't do it, then the consequence would be you wouldn't do anything together for that planned evening, afternoon or weekend, is that correct? Was that your response to this agreement? Or was it an open-ended agreement...where the dates weren't set, the times, ahead of time? Just a "your turn to plan something"...the when, where and how of it?


So you didn't change your behavior here. You chose to make the plans yourself, which betrays what you wanted, doesn't it? How would you feel if you changed your behavior? When the night/afternoon/weekend comes and he didn't do it, then you have alternate plans you do, instead? Could be reading a book, going to a movie...without him?



That's an SD, not a partnership. Can you see where the reasonableness of alternating...where his falls through, and the next time you plan and it doesn't...then his...doesn't make it a test to see if he'll eventually pass it? It owns your part...you have fun on your planned nights, anyway? So your time together is enjoyable and fun (see AmIOK's thread), and when he doesn't, it isn't together time...no alternate plans together...then you do your back up plan.

Because you do not want to create and nurture resentment. That's an attack on your marriage, isn't it?



I'm glad to know that the test was only a fantasy you indulge in and don't act on it. Make reality reasonable. This is clearing the lines up of your part and his part, and the marital part...not an act of manipulation to make him follow through on promises, or make plans. Well, know which is your intent. Mine was equitable partnership.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And you're not alone in your struggles...Nia17, Ears_Open, diamondsj, and as you saw, Maz, struggle with the same stuff. I sure did. Promise breaking is big. Get to know the rudiments of it...not as simple as you may believe. Complicated. First, you gotta know if he's really agreeing or not. And know if you are really agreeing or not.

Made me go hmmmmm.



I believe you use "I" statements. If you could give some examples, we could see if they are ownership "I" statements or sneaky "You" statements masquerading as "I" statements. I really struggled with this myself. You may not be doing this at all. That's my filter.

And he may say, "You always have a problem with the marriage" when you use share your stuff. Affirm and clarify, "I can understand why you think I'm saying I have a problem with you or the marriage by what I said. Just now, I was sharing, not asking you to solve anything. I don't have a problem. I'm being intimate."

Again...I offer this not as "Better say it with these words or you're blowing it;" I'm offering a perspective...you pick your words. You may have said this before. Examine those statements for ownership (which frees the partner from owning what isn't theirs, whether they do this or not); identification, communication. Just those three things. Find out if you are really asking for resolution and saying there's no problem (I did this). Or asking him to help you identify something you're feeling or believing; or if you really are sharing, which is communicating. Then check to see if you're really listening, not owning what isn't yours, hearing his identification, his communication.

Usually clears up the whole channel. To do this, you gotta not judge yourself or him...identify your true intent (different from desire) and whether you believe you executed your intent to your standards. Be gentle, be intrigued. No bludgeoning for what you find, 'k?

When you share, do you say, "I choose to worry. I know worry is acting in my thoughts from fear. I'm living in the future and sharing it with you"? I ask this because in my over-reaching, I took my DH's worry as my fault, my failure. Not his choice to do so. I share my fears with DH, as my own. As curiosities, feelings. Not as portents or false control. Sharing them is much different for us than curing, causing and controlling was...took awhile to begin hearing what wasn't ours from the get go.



Can you hear that this is an exceptionally healthy belief to choose? Picture an authority saying the same thing to you...not your H. "I do not dwell where I have no control. Worry is fantasy...doesn't protect, provide, nourish or sustain me. Sure can feel like it does."

Now, your H may take this truism and stretch it to justify non-participation, to disconnect, to shield himself from intimacy. Depends on what he's addressing when he states it. If a neighbor is not violating any law and still annoying the heck out of you through his actions...this may be a truth you don't want to accept...you want H to make the neighbor stop. Realistically, he can't. Equally real, he can choose to move you guys. Lots of choices, no control.

And you may value worry as important for integrity, a part of your self, your thoughts, your focus. It can feed us in destructive ways which feel responsible, helpful--like protection. Nearly magical. Worry is awareness gone awry. It is us choosing to be aware of the future...which we cannot be...as awareness of your limits, the present and reality, it's essential. When you stretch awareness to where you have no control (the past, the future, other people), it doesn't make it more potent, impactful or helpful. It dilutes and weakens its use.

If you define worry as preparation...saving for a rainy day...which is reasonable, then you save for a rainy day. Doesn't mean you won't have eight rainy days in a row and not be protected, in the end. It's preparation for possibilities, not protection from them.



Tell me today how he left you physically and emotionally, if you will.



How does it benefit you to make his being into labels? I'm not bashing you here...I had to learn the difference...and it was crucial to my life. I labeled my DH...he was a procrastinator, a promise-breaker, a liar, a conflict avoider, emotional remover (what you said only making it more a being to highlight it). I learned in my MC/IC, that humans are NOT that which they do...in reality, DH broke his promises, he procrastinated, he lied, he avoided conflict and he emotionally removed himself (withdrew)...all from choice. His power of choice. When we label as being, then we take away the truth...the choice...and see it as what our partner IS, not what they choose to do. Very frightening and reactive for us to choose to do that. Makes them BE what we fear...and disconnects us further from that...what we do. Our choice.

What some call semantics, I call power...in our thoughts. Tonight, my DH called on his break to hear my voice, share with me and be shared with. One of the things he said was that he was searching for another word he uses in his head regarding motivation, permissions. That the word he was using (which was a trigger word for me, "deserve") wasn't cutting it for him. And something clicked in my brain, which finally broke that trigger word. I got it from another perspective. Very cool. I shared that with him. And I told him I appreciated him for being with me that semantics matter greatly in our heads...our self-talk...and in our communication to others. He'd forgotten when he'd mock me, discounting my choice of words, my belief in them a long time ago. Wasn't me making him...was me realizing he'd changed; and I got that from the signal of teammate, partnering (it's warm, gushy love deposit).

Wasn't huge. Was recognized, acknowledged, through sharing.

The call began with, "I'm glad you answered the phone. I just wanted to talk to you." Then he heard his tone, like "Oh, I just didn't have anything better to do" is what it sounded like to him and he said immediately, "I didn't mean that like it sounded to me. I meant, I wanted to hear your voice." LOL. I had to laugh..."I got that! And you know what? I can do that. You wanted to talk to me...I'm me!"

Sounds silly and a little embarrassing typing that out. Means the world to me. This exchange, not DJing, not leaping to conclusions, no voice reading (I didn't even think about his tone, just his words)...and we shared a pleasure...mutual love deposits. Tiny stuff, big stuff. I dunno. Communication rocks.

Maybe I linked that to this changing doing from being...because DH still sees that counselor...and he doesn't label himself or others anymore...consciously catches himself when he does it...so I feel safe, not trapped, not defined or stuck. He doesn't either. And that came after revoking permission to label as being rather than doing. Guess I saw cause and effect. Doesn't mean that's the all of it...maybe a tiny part. I don't know yet. Sure changed my perception of DH's stuff greatly. Because it changed my signals inside. Eased fear. People change. They really do. They only do from choice, though.

Their own.

How I changed my part in his promise-breaking. I chose not to hold him to any promises he made. I chose to not know if he would do what he promised, when he promised (procrastination). I chose not to believe him (lying). I chose to share even if he saw it as conflict. I learned to speak, with ownership, until he didn't see it as conflict, as blaming, as mothering, any more. And then I kept doing it all.

LOL

Another tool I used by seeing where I labeled being was whatever struck fear or riled me in others, I found in myself. So I checked myself for conflict avoidance (check!) and emotionally unavailable (check!). I focused on those in me, making the choices I just listed...and more...and voila, I'm married to a man who owns, doesn't avoid conflict and who shares his emotions with me...feels like being treasured and respected.

Even with my MC/IC being DH's MC/IC, we didn't overlap much. Maybe four times the counselor brought something about DH into our sessions. For the most part, he brought me back to my part, my power, my half of the marriage. I wonder how IC's ever label someone they haven't met...because they only know them through their patient's filter...so that's two filters...the IC's and the patients...before you get to the person (usually the partner), and no doubt, that person isn't stating their stuff in their highest O&H, so really, isn't that another filter? IC have to get through your filters to see you as you are...and they are to take you on that journey with them...separating reality from fantasy; perception from fact...your truth from the truth. That's how I see them. Artists, not magicians or oracles, in my opinion.

I totally understand, though, when I described an incident, what I did, what DH did, that I could make what MC/IC said into something. "Yes, DH acted passive-aggressively" could make DH into A P/A. When we are discounted, ignored, unanswered or included, I can see making those choices to do those things as acts of emotional distancing.



Thank you so much for this listen and repeat with filter in response to my made-up statement. Sincerely...I no longer perceive what I wrote as pursuing. You saw it that way. Which shows your filter. You saw my statements as attempts to convince him to do something. Not my intention at all, nor in my filter right now, because I know I can't convince anyone of anything. Didn't even it hit. In there, I stated that you know he chooses to talk to you or not...out of your control. Acknowledges. No persuading. I saw those statements as revealing, sharing, owning and acknowledging the truth as well as your truth.

That's as far as I go...I get this. Would you consider you want to have the power to convince? You believe you have it? Would you consider that you believe you can do/say/be something to get him to stop LBing and robbing your love bank? I had to get this in me, through Alanon. Uncover all those hidden beliefs. I'm not sure how to do it here.

And if not...if you truly believe you cannot convince...and after you re-read my hypothetical...would you tell me where you seeing the attempt to convince in it?

I saw it as acknowledging you know you cannot convince or make him in anyway.

And you nailed that convincing is an act of pursuit. I hadn't thought of it before...and yes, fits for me! Cajoling, coaxing, quizzing...convincing (adding that), like demanding...any time you're trying to get something from him...an action, a statement...is pursuit in my book.



I believe this is your focus right now. I'm delighted you chose the big red stop sign, too. That's what I used. LOL. You really brought home something else to me...I didn't break my worrying dance until our marriage fell apart...wow...another ramification I didn't sync with that. I was reared by a worrier and lived true to that dynamic, as well. When I really got that my DH chose to be in our marriage (when he left it), my worst worry came true...and I lived. Then I read more books which addresses this fantasy, as I was zooming in on MY ways of going into fantasy...and I freed myself. You will, too! I know it. It's a freedom I drink from every day. Thank you for sharing, because I think it is part of a whole...not an isolated automatic in us.

Now I'm thinking from what I wrote above about worry...maybe that's another thing I see in you which was a big part of me. Why I feel bonded to you, eh? I know I have no power to lecture it out of you...I really hope you don't mind me bringing you all the parts of worry I experienced...the false payoffs from it. Until I got that...at the time when reality was kicking my butt...I didn't break free from it. I don't expect you to do so overnight...I do think it's part of the whole process you're choosing to go through...posting, considering, examining, etc.



Just highlighting this.



Do you show affection to yourself the way you need to? Do you romance yourself? Are you emotional aware and intimate, listening and sharing with yourself your own stuff? Again, what is in your power, under your control, what is your responsibility. Not me bashing or attacking you. This was a really foreign concept to me. I'm not sure I do well at relating it to others. I'm doing my best.

Another nugget which surprised me..."Why" questions are abusive. That statement just rocked my world. Can't remember which book. I think they were going for shock value. There's a place for "why" questions...and definitely not places for it. When your DH makes his statements about his alone time, listening and repeating with filter may be what you want to do. Asking "Why would you say such a thing" and I'm saying this common phrase, not that you say it this way, however, it can be heard this way, with judgment...tells the speaker to disavow, backtrack, shut up, not respond, distract or divert. A lot of why questions (which I thought were loving, btw...I was why'd to death growing up) are pre-judgments disguised as interest. Set-ups.

And why questions about actions distracts from the choice of the action. Many a discussion goes awry from tangents from Why questions.



You said okay, he accepts me going. Do you believe he truly accepts your choices? How about accept is not approval? Could it be that he does accept your choices...you believe he doesn't approve of your alone time?

What you can do without...what you don't want to hear, experience, feel? Is that what you're saying? When you listen and repeat with filter...what is his response? "I heard you say <blank> from your tone, your body language. Is that what you mean?"

Would be great to have a present time example...like from this past weekend. I blanked on the <blank>.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What would you think if I told you that your H could do without your resentment, your rejection, your criticisms? That phrasing...what he could do without...what does that translate to inside you? (I'm hearing U2 right now in my head.)



Do you feel guilty for taking alone time? Through all the justifications, reasons and thoughts...do you feel guilty? I heard you really believed this was healthy for you and your family. Is there another belief bogarting that one?

What do you do? Well, same thing I do...check my perception first. It comes from my beliefs...it's filtered through them. If I believe he resents me taking alone time...pre-planned, not put before the marriage or the 15 hours of UA needed for our marriage; if I'm in my highest honesty with myself and my motives, my confidence of care and priorities...then I listen and repeat with filter. "I'm hearing resentment right now. Do you feel resentment?" "I perceived resentment when you kicked that chair. Are you feeling resentment right now and is it from my planned alone time?"

When I believed my DH had the power to make me feel...like guilt, rejection, etc...then his stuff, through my filter, gave me that feeling. I had to correct, correct, and correct again my filter..nearly every time for each emotion, each signal. I had to verify on my inside before I went outside. Then again, I discovered the vastness of my own perception...how far I stretched from perception into fact...until it snapped. I don't know what it will take for you...and if you hear, "Yes, I'm trying to make you feel guilty." I would feel relief from honestly sharing. Good to know! You're not crazy. Or "No, I don't feel resentment. I feel bored."

Good to know.

Or "No, I'm not doing that." Good to know.



Okay, here's me clarifying. What I responded to you about fear of intimacy came from you sharing this:



When I insert reality (choice), I get this:

"When I choose to focus on my H not sharing his problems with me, I experience being cut off/out of/from his life. Each time I find out things from others, I'm just floored from my expectation that he share with me. I feel scared to death when I choose to think that something is going on that I need to know about, but don't. I choose to worry that something is going on with him. I choose to worry that he is upset with me or distancing himself from me. I believe if I could just know what it is, then I could either help or at least prepare myself for whatever. I believe I am in the dark and I hate it. Again, my issues with trying to control or make things perfect. I just wish he would be more open with me, then I would feel prepared, safe, and choose not to worry, which is acting from fear. I wish I could count on that, because then I could feel safe, cared for, included and close; but he doesn't choose to share all of his stuff, and so I choose to worry about what is really going on."

What is really going on is that he's making choices and so are you. That's reality viewing...insert choice to every action. Discern what is a feeling from a belief...and find your beliefs. To me, it sounded like your whole perspective is truth through him. Yet you find out the truth from others...you said so. He's not your only way of knowing reality. You have means and choice. And where you put your focus fuels your own fear, which results in you choosing to worry instead of verify through other means.

That's what I got. I'm not really good at the rewrites...feelings like I'm crossing a boundary. I want to show what I see, and I don't think I do it well. Sharing my filter isn't my strong suit yet. I'm working on it.

Complicated stuff. Very real feelings. Really tough way to live...I remember it well. You brought it back. Doesn't mean I know all of the ways out of it. That's where I started. I inserted choice...so I could see what are my choices and what are my feelings. Which is why I over repeat that our human power includes choosing our thoughts, beliefs, perceptions and perspectives. That's me sorting it out. Finding and bringing home to myself my power. Not limiting myself with fantasy...and embracing my real limits.

What you are experiencing is real...doesn't mean it's reality. Gosh, I wish I knew the words to convey that less mystically.

As for my belief that a lot of the discomfort comes from fear (clarifying my own darn words) of emotional intimacy are the things we share with our partners. When we share, we expose ourselves...our stuff...to another human being. A person who we have given authority to judge, harm, evaluate and decimate us. Fear of emotional intimacy isn't nutsy...not a dysfunction at all. A survival instinct to guard against annihilation. Reasonable. Well, it was reasonable. Adult humans, not so reasonable. We will not die or be annihilated...adults know we sure can feel that way. Isn't really true. We won't become extinct from sharing what is ours. The fear is reasonable...acting emotionally unavailable (which is our choice from our fear of emotional intimacy) isn't reasonable.

LA

It's always been open-ended. Nothing set. I would make plans and we would do it. Then a couple of weeks would go by and I want to go out so I make plans and we go out. Same thing with vacations, family stuff, etc. Not that he never makes plans, it's just not that often, maybe 2 or 3 times a year.


Right now, I've accepted he just isn't going to plan stuff for us. I wish he would, but he doesn't. Now, if we discuss the alternating weekend stuff and he doesn't come through, aren't I setting myself up for disappointment? Would I be opening that old wound, so to speak?

See, right there, I just caught myself worrying about a what if. I'm worried that he isn't going to do his share, and I am going to end up disappointed again. Geez! I'm consistant if nothing else! LOL


Interesting. I can not think of any off the top of my head right now, but I will certainly be paying attention to this. This may be exactly what I am doing.


I think I say there is a problem and I'm asking for his help in finding a resolution. Which I can see he takes it as he is causing the problem AND he needs to fix it.

Perfect example, the last time I spoke with him about the things I need from him which in turn would help me want SF more. Things like be more comforting to me when I am upset about whatever, call me during the day, leave me little love notes, make dinner just so I wouldn't have to, etc. He said guys just aren't that way. This is how he is and he isn't changing. I then said that I really miss these things. That not having these things has an affect on our SF. He then said that we could just stop SF if that's what I want. And I told him that wasn't what I wanted at all. A couple of hours later he said he was just joking about the not having SF thing.

I can see how he felt attacked and went on the defense. I didn't mean to attack him. I just want so desperately for him to get what I need. To put some effort into it. Nothing was resolved. Nothing changed.


I feel this is what he does. Not just me, actually his family also feels this way.


I'm not real sure what you mean here with the today part. Today, he is here with me. "We" don't have "anything" going on right now so there isn't a reason for him to check out. If that makes sense. My depression and the struggles I'm having with our M are big issues for only me right now, so I've been trying to work all of that out myself.

I could give you examples from the past, which could give you a picture of how he has checked out, but they're in the past. Nothing I can do about them today.


I wasn't labeling him. I realize he chooses to act this way. Which is what is so frustrating. He chooses it.


I don't really see myself as avoiding conflict or being emotionally unavailable. Maybe I'm looking at it from the wrong direction though. Where do I look?


My IC didn't label my H that. The only thing she has ever said was "It sounds that way from what you describe" after I've related a story to her and how I felt he was avoiding conflict or not being emotionally available to me. I started realizing these things about my H when I went looking for answers to why he won't talk to me, why he doesn't hear me when I talk, why he can't comfort me, etc.


In my head, I know I can not get him to do a thing. I guess, in my heart, I hope I can. So I read your words as a way to manipulate him into talking. Shows how far apart you and I are on this doesn't it?


I have no idea. How do you show yourself affection? How do you romance yourself?


Did you mean when my DH makes his statements about my alone time?

If so, I do ask him why. I'll say something like I don't understand why he has such a problem with me having some time to myself.


Yes, I believe he accepts it, but doesn't approve or agree with it. He accepts it because he knows either I would be very mad if he didn't or he can not physically stop me from going or he would look like a selfish tush because deep down he knows its only fair that I get some alone time too. I don't think he approves or agrees based on his words and actions.

Nothing going on this past weekend, so nothing there. Last weekend was the whole me working 3-4 hours and then going to a 15 minute appt afterwards, which he translated into me being gone all day. All said with a certain tone of voice. Then he wouldn't talk to me about it. I tried to clarify and confirm. He told me he should have just kept his mouth shut and walked away.


I would say you are right and that is why I am here. That's why I am in IC. That's why I read book after book. That's why I am trying to change.

He could do without, means just that. It isn't constructive and isn't going to help him or the situation in anyway.


I used to feel guilty, but I don't now. I know it is important to me and my family.

I do need to remember the resentment question. Before I would ask the why question. Maybe using the resentment question, like you stated, will not feel like I am attacking him and also make him ask himself why he resents me having alone time, if he does.


Very good at the rewrite. I can definitely see the choices I make, and him too.

Yes, I can get the truth from others about most things, but I can only get the truth about him from him. And when he choses not to share his truth, I worry. And although I know worrying isn't going to do anything, shouldn't I acknowledge it to him? So that he knows that I am interested in him and his problems? If I decide not to worry based on my fears and go on as if nothing is wrong, doesn't this show a disinterest in him? I don't mean following him around, nagging him, etc, but at least acknowledge it?


This is me. My fear is I will look stupid, weird, not worth it and then be rejected. I don't want to look like I am lacking some how. I don't want to reveal my weaknesses because it may paint a not so pretty picture of me. Very scary stuff.

Ruby,

Good catch on your consistency factor. Yes, I see it as high...I think that really works in your favor, and equally against. I was addicted to my what ifs and if onlys...how much they affected my thoughts, my perspective and my expectations...was astonishing to me.

Truly, good catch. Do you fear feeling disappointment? I ask because I think I did. Hated that feeling. Part rejection, part last place, lots of little parts of crud. What I wasn't looking at was how familiar I was with disappointment...probably a daily signal. I survived it every time. Yet, I fear it. Now, that's where the feeling a bit crazy comes in...there was nothing life-ending about disappointment. I sure worked very hard at not feeling it...self-manipulation and control others were the result.

Yucky result.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

All to keep me from feeling a feeling I already was well-versed in. Which is why I let go...and boy, did I have a lot more energy and space for other stuff in my mind.

It was like OCD in my brain.

Talk about extreme consistency.

So no, the idea of alternate weekend plans won't work if you are too automatic in your choice of actions. You'll plan, anyway. When you decide to let go the outcome...have your secondary plans pleasantly in place...then you'll know what a boundary enforcement really is...to not resent, to not expect...so you can see when he makes the plans, it's a gift. Love is a gift. When you drop the expectations, love comes pouring in...and half of that is you see all your acts in retrospect as solid gifts, as well.

Asking what part of making plans he dislikes...could be talking to the sitters, pressure to make it a perfect evening out, a blank mind when he tries to think of stuff. That RC inventory was a delight...circling things I would be open to trying and things I loved already. Lots of choices/options. Sharing my goal..."I wanna play!" brought back what great play mates we are...and were...when we began.

The goal was not to get away and relax; that was a result, not a goal. The goal wasn't to have a peaceful time...sometimes, we're rambunctious. The goal wasn't to connect deeply; again, a result, not a goal.

Would you be open to not defining what IS a problem? As I said, there aren't many actual problems in marriage to be solved...the majority are stuff to be understood. Clarifying this in my mind made all the difference. My DH, also, would attack a problem, perceive me saying he was the cause, control and cure...and it wasn't crazy of him...I'd told him he was those three things again and again. When I stopped, he still heard me saying that. Like I'd made it a tape recording in his head.

And I still heard I was those things from him. My perception had a similar automatic tape playing. We had to remind ourselves aloud when we did this, that's not what we believe any longer. Took a lot of "oops" to get it.

About meeting ENs...he gets what you want (understands) and is choosing not to do those specific things. We've talked about this...he IS meeting other ENs...so you have a big picture balance. So, you've stated your ENs, with ways to meet them...not unreasonable nor demands. What if you make that a boundary...stating was your first enforcement. Okay, what's the second? Well, I suggested you choose to meet your own...and you said, "Say what???"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Okay...you didn't say that...I know. Here's your plan: " Things like be more comforting to me when I am upset about whatever, call me during the day, leave me little love notes, make dinner just so I wouldn't have to, etc."

Self-comfort is a beautiful thing...you concoct a comfort action with these ingredients: recognition, acceptance, understanding and awareness.

Comfort from sorrow...well, that's grieving. Recognizing sorrow (not depression) or sadness as a healing emotion is what I think of as the first step. We grieve what comes to pass and what doesn't come to pass. I've read that we grieve many times a day, in tiny ways. Understanding what we're grieving...say, your H not choosing to make you dinner, again...not leaving a note...all those things. They may flit through your mind...grieve them through recognition and acceptance. Those five stages are done in a flash...denial (not in this case), anger (ayup), bargaining (desired), sadness (recognize that signal) and acceptance.

You might feel silly recognizing sadness for H not calling or making dinner. Unreasonable expectation because he said he's not going to do those things. Feel the sadness for a few moments anyway...awareness, not fixing.

Comfort from conflict, fear, anxiety, emptiness, depression, loneliness...share what requires comfort for you.

If it's fear...recognize if it's real fear...like you caught yourself what if'ing...see if you're in the present, past or future. Self-comfort would be pulling yourself back into today. Just today. Much more manageable because it's our human reality and limit.

For the fear-based reactions, self-comfort includes breathing...fear hits with adrenaline releases...often, we breathe shallow breaths when we feel anxious, angry or afraid. Funny thing is, shallow breathing reduces oxygen availablity in the brain. Can swing us more into our old brain (the lizard part) our deep limbic, and exaggerate our signals...self-distortion. How 'bout that?

A few slow, deep breaths through your nose, exhaled slowly (like four or five beats in, from your belly; equally on the out) balances a bit...and if you are aware this is your act of self-comfort, of caring for you physically and emotionally...really being there for yourself...as you do it...then you are accepting you feel anxious (fearful, whatever) and are addressing that fear in your body and mind. You probably already do this with your kids when they are in distress...take your own mothering advice. It's good advice!!

Cool thing about comfort breathing is that you put your focus on it easily...counting, noticing your body, where your fear is manifesting...centers you a bit. Next, you recognize (identify) what belief your fear is coming from...which can be really tricky...keep breathing. In doing these two things, you are accepting your fear (not fighting it) and going for understanding, not reaction.

Self-comfort builds self-confidence...through awareness.

Who knew? I sure didn't.

Physical stuff...self-affection as comfort...you can hug yourself...you really can! You can rock, massage, pat...your ways of comforting your children, you can do to your own body...stroke your face, squeeze your arms, rub your thighs, curl up and hug your knees. With awareness that this is you acting to self-comfort comes the difference between our automatic ways (and we have them) which do not build anything on a conscious level. This is you loving yourself...being your own reliable friend.

Okay...we're on your specific ENs meeting...and now, I think you'll laugh. That's okay. I'm funny.

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Call yourself. Call your home phone and leave a message. If you feel outrageously embarrassed, all the better. "Hi, this is Ruby. I'm leaving me a message. I'm thinking about you right now...and...I'm so cracking myself up. I'm a riot. I love you." Hang up. If you do it in the morning, I bet by the end of the day when you get that message, you WILL crack up again. Then leave yourself a voicemail at your office, even as you're laughing, turning red, and your body chuckles.

Buy a pack of Post-It notes...leave love notes for yourself on the mirror in your bathroom...the dash of your car. The refridgerator, the tv, as a bookmark, in your purse. Be wildly creative so that you can actually place them all at one time and then stumble across them for a week (or longer). (Now that my creative juices are going...in the junk drawer in your kitchen...stuck on a serrated knife you use once a month, in the pantry on the peanut butter, (giggle at sticking something on peanut butter for a moment); inside the linen closet on the door, beneath the fourth bath towel, in your jewelry box lid...have FUN doing this...

Write a love letter to your 10-year-old self...from your now-aged self. Like mother to daughter or something.

Teach your children how to make one meal really well. Then give them one night each a week to make it. Tell them you see it as an act of love which makes it guaranteed delicious.

Give yourself a foot massage with wonderful smelly lotion. Think of your toes as tiny creatures...think gratitude thoughts of how hard they work for you as you rub the balls of your feet, the arch, and the heel. Don't miss your ankles and calves. The rest of your body will be jealous.

You don't have to make dinner...you choose to from love. Notice your have to's in your head. You want your kids fed (to heck with H), so you make dinner...grocery shop, make lunches, breakfasts...that's the higher payoff. You want to see these kids live to reproduce, don't you?

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And no, none of this was natural or taught to me. Truly. The concept, let alone the actions, was as foriegn to me as reading another language (not Latin-based).

This is romancing yourself...favorite smells, fabrics and finding what feel delicious when you stretch and move. Smiling...smiling a lot, I feel is romantic. Consoling. Fun.

Taking a walk at sunset is romantic. Inhaling summer scents and watching clouds, trying to name the color of the sky, leaning down to touch the grass...or taking off your shoes to walk in it and remember childhood. (My DH won't do this--shoes stay on.)

Think of what feels romantic and again, let your creativity fly. Resistance will be self-image...enthusiasm will be your true self. Go for true self, 'k?

Get a blanket and go lay out in the backyard under the stars on a clear night. Use bug spray. Tell yourself jokes, and admire who you really are, make lists of all you do, and blare your horn, ring your own bell. That's not arrogance; it's the deepest appreciation for God's creation. You have license. Take it.

Delight yourself by not criticizing yourself. When you make a faux paux, point it out...laugh with your embarrassment...celebrate it...you're freeing yourself from self-image--a prison which is the biggest part of depression, IMO.

Dance, Ruby. In your car, in your bedroom, in the livingroom and certainly, in the kitchen. Doesn't have to have music...you have decades stored in your head. Write your own melodies when you do dishes...groan when you do laundry...giggle at you groaning out loud. Put on slippers and drag them on your feet, shuffle for a half-hour. Remember what it was like for one heartbeat to be a kid...even when you're folding clothes, unloading the dishwasher, making a bed. (Think of forts of sheets and tea parties under blankets.)

Romance yourself, your inner child. You're worth every effort, every act and affirmation.

Whew...definitely after reading all that. Worthy of a Starbucks, even!

Appreciate yourself for every post...all those keys you had to punch, each flit of fear you felt and typed anyway. What a woman!

In loving spirit, find where you label yourself...hear those judgments in your head about yourself...listen to them...trace them...some are really silly...not at all true of your adult self. Each time you hear them, bless them and say, "That's not who I am."

And if they are labels "you're being selfish"...and you stop and think...yes, I think I am right now...then bless them and say, "I am acting selfish right now. I'm focused what H is not doing. Thank you." Then move your focus back on all you are doing or resisting. Gently.

Also gently, see if your what ifs you go into, actually are a method you talk yourself out of changing anything...oh, he won't follow through...which can be conflict avoidance. There's no real conflict there...there's saying, "I'd like to come up with a plan...here's what I think. What do you think?" And let go the outcome. You'll know when you are hiding your dependency on the outcome behind your back when you feel right about his response...which may be disappointment, disbelief or resentment. That's you thinking you're letting go...not letting go. When you really let go the outcome, you feel a thrill with yourself for offering, acting intimate, and being present.

Get to know all the disguises for fear you may have...so each time you feel fear and hold it...recognize, understand, accept it, not act from it, you give yourself well-earned kudos. Don't forget to breathe.

When we withdraw, expecting attack, that's CA and emotionally unavailable to our partners. Withholding our stuff is EU, too..comes from fear of conflict. The more you hold your fear as I described and share, anyway, demonstrates to yourself you really are letting go the outcome...and doing it as an act of intimacy, holding to your goal to have an intimate marriage.

Each time you feel disappointment, resentment about H's response (or whoever you shared with, even the kids), you are betraying yourself because you're giving to get. Know the difference. Get your signals.

CA is where we talk ourselves out of an action, an emotion, a thought or perception. To feel safer. Reduce risk. Protect. Now, don't throw this over boundary enforcements...because those aren't CA...in fact, they are the actions we DON'T talk ourselves out of and by doing so, we feel safer, after they felt like a risk.

Thank you for explaining further what your IC said...he/she made a context statement...which means in that one instance, your H's choices could have been from CA or EU issues. I have a problem in your posts that go back into the past, into the future, trailing these behaviors as if they are constant, by the minute, with no room in them for change...like you're squeezing out that possibility to really communicate what a total wall your H is...that's my perception. Above, I said your H stretched a perspective really far...do you think you stretch his stuff to cover a whole lot it really can't? Again, this is natural...not you being mean or defective. This is what we did as kids, taking a single incident and making a belief of it. "Whenever Johnny says he's mad, he's mad forever. Don't get Johnny mad." Something like that. You already got how difficult it's been for you to stay in the right here, right now only. I remember for me, too. The more I did, the more I saw actions instead of personality...in myself and my DH. Even my kids...coworkers. Goes to the always, never, ever signal...might help you hear when you're stretching something...pulling it into the present as if it's happening right now...and getting all those signals as if it is...because our wonderful brains don't know it's not happening now--you're telling it that he is saying/doing this stuff today. Like PTSD'ing yourself?

I did this nightly. I'm not faulting you. I lived that way for three decades. That's not living. Fed my depression and made the loop I was living into a steel band.

Didn't think for a moment I was choosing those thoughts, where I dwelled. Compulsion. Consistency. Reliable experiences by repeating the past. Emotional management. Living in fantasy, I discovered.

Chose better.

"I started realizing these things about my H when I went looking for answers to why he won't talk to me, why he doesn't hear me when I talk, why he can't comfort me, etc."

Let's put this statement into reality as practice: "I chose to perceive that my H will not talk to me, doesn't hear me, and is incapable of comforting me, etc."

Your half is your perception. I thought you were talking about MY DH for a second. When I read Healing the Shame (Bradshaw) I caught my own DJ...that my DH was incapable. He isn't. Wasn't. He said he was...and I bought it. But wait...he did comfort me, he did listen to me and he did talk to me...oh, a heckuva lot while we dated, early years in marriage. Up all night sharing, we were. Not incapable.

I've shared a lot of my DH's half of his choices...that he heard my sharing full of criticisms and judgments (and I had to find where a lot of the time, they really were); so he heard me...no doubt...until he protected himself and assumed what I was saying and went off in his own mind on tangents...then he didn't. Didn't matter back then...I repeated myself a lot. Did I mention that to you yet? One of the first acts of respect I did was to not repeat myself. Not a single request. That was startling to us both.

We had quite a few of these conversations:

DH "I would have done that if you'd asked!" (Upset)
Me: "I did ask. You didn't do it. I just did."
DH: "I forgot (didn't hear) you asked. You should have reminded me."
Me: "I don't do shoulds anymore and I don't remind. I know you heard me."

Smiling, not fighting, pleasant. I LOVED the feeling of freedom from NOT repeating myself. One of his biggest LB's was nagging. Soul-deep allergic to it. He LOVED not feeling nagged. I LOVE not "being" a nag.

Win/win.

No resentment. The very absence of resentment, coupled with the thrill of freedom did the trick for me. Cut that off really fast. Easy to change. Another "have to" bit the dust.

Our perceptions may be far apart right now...as far as I am to my former self three years ago. Doesn't mean there isn't a lot of great discoveries in coming together. Not me to yours or yours to mine. I understand fully why you hope you can convince and know you cannot. That's inner conflict. Signals are frustration, resentment, anger and fear. I had those all the time.

Thought DH was making me feel them, I swear. If only he'd...oh, that if only. That what if I...no, he'd...round and round and round and round. Dizzy blonde. From internal conflict. I swear to you, Ruby, you're not wrong. You are choosing your perception. I didn't even know our perceptions and perspectives were our own choice!

In my quote to you about listening to DH talk about HIS alone time...golfing...I suggested listen and repeat.

As far as his remarks to you (today) about your alone time: "If so, I do ask him why. I'll say something like I don't understand why he has such a problem with me having some time to myself."

You named him having a problem when he had a feeling (from prior statements). Just highlighting that. You did it in your question. You assumed. Listen and repeat clear out assumptions and you defining his stuff.

How about self-comfort here...from his side. He feels rejected through some expectation or hope he had...feels disappointment...doesn't state it...slips in with a cutting one-liner. Snide remark. Or makes a mocking statement. That's his feeling, right then, and he's choosing to act on it. Later, maybe five minutes or an hour, he accepts, going through his thoughts, that he KNOWS it's not rejection, and accepts your alone time for what he believes...your own recharging, your healthy act. He's good with it. Okay when you come home. Not a problem...his own feelings. From his thoughts and beliefs.

Like you KNOW you cannot convince...and you wish you could.

"He told me he should have just kept his mouth shut and walked away."

Walk after him, up to him and say, "H? I care very much about your feelings. I heard in your tone that you weren't okay thinking I was away all day. I don't understand what you meant and I appreciate you sharing with me. I care about your happiness and comfort."

Takes looking him in the eyes, speaking a notch above a whisper, most sincere, direct, calm voice. Serious. Then smile and walk away.

"He could do without, means just that. It isn't constructive and isn't going to help him or the situation in anyway."

Well, you nailed it for me. Fantasy. Could do without is negation of reality, isn't it? Is it?

Get allergic to asking him "why" questions. I like your take on the resentment statement instead.

You can only get his truth from him right now. That's just right now. You're working on a lot of stuff...your own stuff. Let go and accept you have a way to know The Truth, and only solely rely on H for his truth. Knowing your own helps in this regard. Knowing you are capable, aren't shut off from knowing the truth (actions), is another act of self-comfort and it's reality.

Not forever.

You're not there yet.

He knows you're interested in him. He knows you want him to be intimate. He knows you want a thriving, fulfilling, partnering marriage. My DH knew all of it. Didn't have the same perspective I did...he saw me as engulfing, taking over, consuming his truth...annihilating him. That I was looking for all his whys to criticize his very essence...his most inner self. Not intimacy...control. Attack. Bent on changing him, that he was the problem.

Which is why we would go through the pursuer/distancer dance (until I read Facing Love Addiction)...and I would pursue, show interest, dig with my questions, beg...and he would withdraw, stay silent, retreat...and I would get to a certain frustration/rejection level and withdraw, ignore, be silent back...and then he felt like he could breathe, had room...then too much room...and pursued a bit...which I then ate up and turned around and latched on again...and he'd withdraw.

"And when he choses not to share his truth, I worry."

I don't know if I should be really bold here or simple. Simply bold?

In this one statement, you acknowledge you are your H's slave. He is your master. He controls you, chooses for you. This is not an "I" statement. This is slavery.

Causes huge resentment in yourself, for yourself. Feels like he's doing it. You're doing it. You're betraying yourself.

"And although I know worrying isn't going to do anything, shouldn't I acknowledge it to him?"

Acknowledge that you've made him your master? Absolutely. You are committed to being O&H. You can do no less. Acknowledge you're helplessly compulsive inside. That though you know worrying isn't going to do anything--that you've experienced one million times that worry cannot control--because of what he doesn't do, you worry, anyway.

"So that he knows that I am interested in him and his problems? If I decide not to worry based on my fears and go on as if nothing is wrong,"

Hey, what an assumption! That something is wrong. No wonder you don't decide not to worry. I've asked you to choose to see worry for what it is...IT'S NOT REAL. It's a fantasy trip you take into the future. You are choosing fantasy. How in the world does that translate into going on as if nothing is wrong (which would be more fantasy)?

He KNOWS you're not happy with yourself or him. He knows what you need and why. By discounting your own voice (he heard), you are pretending he doesn't know. Just like you with worry, he KNOWS and is choosing not to change.

"doesn't this show a disinterest in him?"

Why not raw, unabating fear? He's a scaredy cat. He's afraid of you. He's afraid of himself. The world. Choose what you want...you don't know.

"I don't mean following him around, nagging him, etc, but at least acknowledge it?"

Tell me what acknowledging means to you...something new you learned, that you're committing to yourself? Something you've discovered about your patterns, your perception of your partner patterns? Or old news? Repeating? Is that what you mean by not nagging?

Your self-image is the prison you are fighting here. Your fear that you will look stupid (to yourself?), weird, not worth it (choosing voluntary slavery does that), and rejection. There is nothing about you to reject...your essence, your true self is wholly lovable, stunningly created and innocent. Your self-image is tainted, put together with Legos and duct tape, trying to look like the original, God's creation.

Ain't gonna come close, Ruby.

You are NOT lacking...you are experiencing great lack, constant lack...from your focus...your beliefs about yourself and your family. You are soaking in abundance. Your choice where you focus.

Your weaknesses are apart of you...they are there for a purpose. What if you torment yourself so much, you feel compelled to be comforted?

I accept my weaknesses...blindly. I cannot figure out spacial stuff...like if a sofa will fit over there...or if that thing can fit through my door. I can't gauge length with my eyes...I measure inches with my finger knuckles. I accept this about myself because it's not a weakness or a defect...it's so I can feel myself laying ontop of a mountain ridge, being a giant and soaking up a new perspective, feeling a new texture (evergreen beds)...same for brushing my mind's hand along a lake and getting wet; being the size of a pebble and seeing from an ant's perspective).

Nothing God gave me is a defect or weakness. He created me with balance. I'm the one who remade myself, trying to eliminate any weakness...hide them from human sight (and think I hid them from God)...to be perfect so I could find relief in being loved perfectly by humans.

I did that.

That was when I chose to live from fear..act from it...loop and pursue and retreat and focus constantly on others...to keep me alive, make me significant and accepted. I lost four decades to control...I'm not losing a minute more. It's not real. My self-image isn't real or necessary.

I was loved before I was born, completely...celebrated, cherished and treasured. Understanding that has changed my life. I am the cause, control and cure for only myself...that's in God's design. My influence is limited by others...my prayers are unlimited by anything. So are my choices. Even of how I experience life through my beliefs. I choose them.

You were created by the same hand, loved in the same way, as I am. You're actually choosing NOT to be. You're my sister, part of my self...we're related. I'm the black sheep. Hi.

Intimacy is NOT two people sharing all their stuff.

It's one.

Knowing your own stuff and sharing it...that's intimacy. Warts and all...because until you share, often, you will only see the warts and live from fear. When you share, you get the chance to see them in a new light, and they could be gems.

No bull, Ruby.

And yes, I hear your fear, your worry, your self-criticisms and self-talk. Those are real. Very real. Doesn't make them necessary or earned. We are vulnerable and we know we all are, all the time. There's really no hiding. Just constant discovery, if we choose.

LA

I was going to say that I don't think I fear it, I know I don't like it and it does make me feel rejected or not as important. With my H I'm just tired of it or tired of how it makes me feel. With others, I would say I fear it.

I realize it isn't life ending, but it sure can take a toll on your heart and how you think of yourself. I know it shouldn't, but it does for me.

How did you learn to let go. Right now, it's like I expect it, but I'm still hurt when it happens.


Oh believe me, when he does do something, I drink it right up. I hold onto it like a lifeline because it doesn't happen very often. It's like this rare precious gift to me and I hold it tight to my heart.


What do you mean?


I still have a big issue with this. I know he is meeting other EN's like DS, FS, FC and those things do make deposits in my LB. They are the things that keep me loving him, trying, wanting to be married to him. They don't, however, help with my desire for him. They don't romance me. They don't make me feel special in a woman kind of way. You know how important SF is for most men, well affection is just as important to me. Yes, my H meets DS, FS, and FC, but I meet those things for him too. He has told me. But SF is just as important to him and I try meeting that for him, but he does not try to meet my need for affection.

Romance is in our bedroom only and only because he wants SF. Maybe a lit candle. Possibly a massage. Is it selfish of me to want more? To be flirted with, thought of, and cherished not because I am the mother of his children, his household partner and friend but because I am the woman he wants and needs.

I feel it is expected of me, and most women in general, to be up for SF, to keep it exciting or else my H will start to feel unloved, not wanted. Doesn't matter what I need to feel loved and wanted. The fact that he comes home and is involved with our family and wants to have SF with me should be enough. (I'm not saying you are making me feel this way.)

I guess, this is where I let go of the outcome. I concentrate on being the best wife I can be. I let go of what I want/need and find happiness in what I can control...my actions.


Oh, you'd be surprised how many times I've cried with sadness over that and other things related to that.


You know, I can see how letting go of the outcome will stop the disappointment, disbelief or resentment. What I don't see is how letting go of the outcome will help my LB grow. Yes, I'm back to my love bank. I am trying my hardest to help my H's LB grow, but isn't mine just as important? And I realize me expecting my H to make bigger deposits in my LB doesn't mean he is going to, and I am just setting myself up for disappointment. It's just so frustrating to me. And I see the tit for tat going on in my thinking here. I just don't see how our M is not only going to thrive, but blossom when my H won't meet my most important EN.


I can see that I do this. I've quit sharing with my H because of his past reactions. These reactions have upset me and made me feel rejected, dismissed, etc, so now, I just don't share because I don't want to feel those things.


Sorry I've confused you. When I talk about my H and what he has said or done, it's based on consistancy. What I have come to know based on how he has reacted throughout our relationship. It isn't one or two instances. It is consistant. I know there is room for change, there just hasn't been any change that I can see. Heck, even he has told me he isn't changing. I don't know if I am stretching his stuff to cover a lot it really can't. I'm not really sure what you mean here. Could you elaborate?


Okay, how do I choose better? If I shouldn't expect my H to act/react the way he always has, am I not setting myself up for disappointment? Even you said that you quit expecting your H to act one way, not lying for example, because he has proven he does lie. Why would you expect him to not lie to you when you know he does...I'm assuming based on his past actions.



I know my H isn't incapable. He chooses not to talk to me, listen to me, comfort me.

I'm a little confused here. You said that my half is I choose to perceive these things about my H. Okay, but if these things are truly happening, how am I choosing to perceive them. To me, it isn't a choice, it's actual. He doesn't talk to me, listen to me or comfort me.


I am realizing, in regards to me having alone time, my H's reaction isn't about not wanting me to have alone time, but about him wanting to be with me and our family. Okay, I get that. But what I now feel is he wants me to sacrifice my alone time so we can be together, but not his. That really frustrates me but I shouldn't let it right? Because by letting it frustrate me, I am taking on his choice to behave this way. Is that right?


I'm not sure what you are saying here, especially "and only solely rely on H for his truth. Knowing your own helps in this regard. Knowing you are capable, aren't shut off from knowing the truth (actions), is another act of self-comfort and it's reality."


Ah yes, very familiar with this dance.


I wasn't saying he was showing a disinterest. I was saying I would be showing a disinterest in him if I didn't ask if anything was wrong or could I help him.


Hmmmm, I'm not really sure. I thought I knew what I would say, but then when I started typing it out, it sounded like a "you" statement disguised as an "I" statement. Here it is though, "I feel something is on your mind because you seem quiet and withdrawn from me right now, almost annoyed with me. I want you to know that I am here to talk with you or just listen if you want." And then leave it at that. I've given him the invitation, it's his choice to take me up on it, if he wants to. If he doesn't, that's his choice and I shouldn't take it on as mine by continuing to worry, etc.


I just can not turn that corner for some reason. I just don't like myself very much, for so many reasons. Some reasons out of my control, like physical traits, and other reasons by my own choice, like past actions. I know I can not do a whole heck of a lot about either, but I can't seem to let them go, especially past actions that I can not forgive. I hate those things about myself and I hate that I chose those things. I've made them into who I am and I don't know how to stop that.

I know, a lot of my problems come from just that.

Ruby,

"I realize it isn't life ending, but it sure can take a toll on your heart and how you think of yourself. I know it shouldn't, but it does for me.

How did you learn to let go. Right now, it's like I expect it, but I'm still hurt when it happens."

Exactly!! Your "I know it shouldn't, but it does for me." There's that should...which signals an expectation...we KNOW disappointment will not end us...yet, we feel someone ended, less than, each time. I really do hear you.

How did I learn to let go? I didn't. I chose to not expect. To not measure and to not make agreements. To look at my own expectations and see where they seeped into where I have no control. I turned my expectations back where they belonged...onto me. Wasn't letting go, exactly...it was thoroughly acknowledging and understanding I had no control of outcome--I could only choose my results.

Good to know you can see others' choice of actions as gifts...that you hold them and stay aware of them as such.

How do you not define a problem? Well, first you figure out what aren't problems...any of human stuff...thoughts, feelings, beliefs, perceptions and perspectives. That's stuff...valid stuff...not problems. Then you see actions, which aren't stuff...Your truth is you slammed the door. The truth is the door is shut now.

Learning stuff from truth isn't as easy as it sounds. This is how we really discern what is a problem and what isn't...and then we put it in context of OUR problems, not The Problem. When you define The Problem, then you are defining something which may well be not a problem to your partner. His attitude is NOT a problem. That's his stuff. Often, we get so distracted by trying to nail down "what the problem is" that we don't see our own power, we don't enforce our boundaries...which are about actions...not attitudes.

You do not like your H not choosing to act O&H with you. That's not a problem. That's an EN you'd like met. First, you make sure you're meeting it yourself...can't enforce boundaries you don't hold to yourself.

If you say, "I have a problem with expectations" then it sounds to me like it leaves your important choices out. You CHOOSE to expect. Do you check them for reasonable or just necessary? Like expecting your partner to tell the truth when he lies by omission regularly. Why are you choosing to expect truth when you can RELY on his lying? Withholding?

This is the part of checking yourself into reality. Not bashing or criticising yourself for previous choices. Choosing differently now.

When we use the sentence, "I have a problem with you" then we aren't really communicating our stuff. "I feel distant, withdrawn and uninterested in our marriage right now." That's ownership and identification. Does that make it a problem to solve or stuff to share?

Doesn't mean you will ALWAYS be in withdrawal...means you are now, you're aware of it, and you're sharing. Then share what you're doing about it.

"They don't, however, help with my desire for him. They don't romance me. They don't make me feel special in a woman kind of way. You know how important SF is for most men, well affection is just as important to me. Yes, my H meets DS, FS, and FC, but I meet those things for him too."

One of the hardest realizations I had was finding where I negated others, and myself, so I felt negated, last place, and unimportant. I totally thought my DH was doing it to me. Then I found my "buts" and it began to make since. You say "Yes, he does meet those ENs...BUT you meet those too, for him. Instead of Win/Win...yahoo...we have active love going on...I hear, "Doesn't count, one cancels the other; big whup." Then I hear you say, "I don't feel important, craved, desired, romanced, etc."

You don't have my experience of watching your two little boys doing their amazing stuff in their infant/toddler years and you look up and say, "Did you see that???" and no one is there at all. There is no one to see them speak their first word, but you. There is no one who picks them up and comforts them, talking Dad talk and you get to watch. There are precious moments gone forever...with you as the only witness. All on you. All under your control and in your vault, alone.

I think understanding how hard that hit my chest, over and over again, I find joy, rejoicing and celebration each word I hear shared between my sons and their father...each tussle and hug...when my 23-year-old OS goes and flops down next to Dad, as easy in the world that he'll be accepted, bumped back, smiled at and loved...heck that was just Sunday. Happens all the time. Feeds my soul...and reminds me, I have that with OS as well. And the others. So blessed. Living in Abundance because I stopped discounting, negating and cancelling out what truly is...right now.

My choice.

"He has told me. But SF is just as important to him and I try meeting that for him, but he does not try to meet my need for affection."

Stop trying to meet SF for your H. Choose, instead, to explain in detail what rocks about SF to you, what it symbolizes for you...and how it's not an act of service--every touch is an act of affirmation, appreciation, an act of desire and acceptance...of deep, connected affection...admiration and celebration, together, skin to skin...expression, not expediency.

When you get there in your mind, and stop betraying your own self through your choice...giving to get...then you will experience your reality very differently.

We had to make SF spoken. "I would like to" was made verbal. This was tough. All the unspoken stuff had to go. Why? Because I assumed DH wanted SF when he put his arm around me in bed...or rubbed my shoulder, my arm, touched my back. Guess what? Not so. Couldn't tell (assume) when he wanted to touch to connect, appreciate, admire or accept me...his stuff, not mine. My own DJs killed off love bank deposits for some affection because I chose to believe every move was about HIM getting, me giving.

What a fantasy. Not even real.

SF is my DH's way of feeling most connected to me...and accepted BY me.

Until I chose not to see my DH "giving to get", I couldn't live in abundance.

"Romance is in our bedroom only and only because he wants SF."

You knowing what SF means to you and sharing that knowledge...listen to know what SF means to H...because it's an EMOTIONAL NEED...represents...isn't the end-all. You're cutting him off and you feel cut off. DJs corrode and distort. I know. I've lived, stewed and perceived in and through them.

Yuck.

"Maybe a lit candle."

You light a candle after you say, "I would like to make love with you" and you get his consent. Not before.

You light a candle to meditate, to watch the shadows on the wall, smell the scent. Not just for SF. You do it for you.

"Possibly a massage. Is it selfish of me to want more? To be flirted with, thought of, and cherished not because I am the mother of his children, his household partner and friend but because I am the woman he wants and needs."

You won't feel all the ways you are already cherished, so if you want more, you're doomed to fail, Ruby. You don't know how much your H thinks of you, how much he flirts with you or cherishes you...for who you are...all you are. You discount and negate. Being the MOTHER of his children is HUGE. Big act of love there. See how you discount? "Not because I'm" when it's part of you. Tearing who you are apart. Ouch. Same for household partner...huge acceptance and trust in that...and you throw it away. So you feel thrown away. And friend? Oh, my...he's your enemy because you refuse to value and cherish he considers you his friend and partner. That's what your "buts" do, Ruby.

Do you think he chooses to be married to you today because he doesn't want, doesn't need, doesn't appreciate you? And all you are to him? How about YOU don't value, want, need or appreciate who you really are...so he has to do all of that for you?

Impossible.

Deprivation...crumbs...crap. He cannot feel the void you create in yourself Ruby. Only you can.

"I feel it is expected of me, and most women in general, to be up for SF, to keep it exciting or else my H will start to feel unloved, not wanted."

So you control your H's feelings. You can make him feel unloved and not wanted, is that correct? Wow...powerful woman. Guy doesn't have a chance here to have his own feelings...for them to be his, signals for him, from him, about him, eh? Do you choose to believe this because you make all your feelings for you, about you, from HIM? He's that powerful to you?

"Doesn't matter what I need to feel loved and wanted."

OUCH...why do you do that to yourself? You rob your own love bank and point directly at H...such a villain! Yet you're holding the gold when you're pointing.

"The fact that he comes home and is involved with our family and wants to have SF with me should be enough. (I'm not saying you are making me feel this way.)"

I know you are choosing to perceive your H this way. No doubt. How's that perception working for you? He is choosing to come home. He has other places he can go. He is choosing to love and value the mother of his children, his friend, his partner and playmate. He can go other places and do that...value others. There are always others out there waiting to try and steal a man who will do that.

Because their man doesn't work, doesn't speak to...doesn't come home...doesn't see their own children and doesn't have SF with their wives.

There is a woman out there who is looking at your DH's choice to meet FS, DS and FC and craving that above all else. Those are the ENs her DH won't meet.

Same boat you're in, only inside out.

What affectionate acts do you make to your H each day and how many?

Do you hug him to get him to hug you back? Touch his hand so he'll reach to hold yours? Rub his shoulders, massage his hands or feet to get him to do the same for you?

"I guess, this is where I let go of the outcome. I concentrate on being the best wife I can be. I let go of what I want/need and find happiness in what I can control...my actions."

I don't care if you're the best darn wife you can be. I'd rather a thousand times more to see you commit to be authentically yourself, without negating, discounting, criticising or digging holes in yourself. I'd rather you be the present half of the marriage and hear/see/view your H as new, every day...without assumptions or mindreading. I would rather you lived fresh than be the best (full of judgment) wife you can be. Until you act like a whole woman and not a role, you cannot be loved as a woman...you won't feel, perceive or view yourself as loved as you already are.

What BS there is in your statement "I let go of what I want/need and find happiness in what I can control...my actions." I'm here asking you to man up and OWN that you don't FIND happiness...you are RESPONSIBILE for being happy. It's yours. There's no finding it...create it in yourself. You are brutalizing yourself and your marriage with your wants/needs and your DJs. You're doing that through choice...not control. You've put your stuff all over your DH, including your power, your limits, your responsibilities and your control.

Until you get how destructive your choice of thoughts (choosing to dwell on lack and treasure it above your marriage), your beliefs (others make you happy, that you stumble across it or dig it out of the ground somewhere), your perception based on discounting not receiving; and your perspective--giving to get and tit for tat...you will not have a thriving reality or marriage.

Your half is as important as HIS half. You're focused all over HIS half...not your own.

You've doomed yourself.

I have no doubt you do not want to destroy your marriage, your DH, your family or yourself. As long as you choose to focus where you have been, bathing in resentment, lack of respect...then you will continue tearing it down.

And you'll see H as doing it, not you.

Until too late...when you really get it. Get your own power and choices.

By listening to your own self-talk, DJs, perspective.

"I am trying my hardest to help my H's LB grow, but isn't mine just as important?"

Another "but" tearing down your marriage. Your choice.

"And I realize me expecting my H to make bigger deposits in my LB doesn't mean he is going to, and I am just setting myself up for disappointment."

You are doing more than setting yourself up for disappointment...you are disrespecting another human being, choosing to live in fantasy with false control...and rip your marriage apart. Would you choose not to expect your H to be/do/act differently so you can feel differently, if you realized this was you tearing up something precious and sacred? That it was an act against another human being? Would you choose not to expect then? Would that be enough?

"You know, I can see how letting go of the outcome will stop the disappointment, disbelief or resentment. What I don't see is how letting go of the outcome will help my LB grow."

If manipulating the outcome (fantasy) robs your love bank through disappointment and resentment...then will that help your LB to grow?

What disbelief? Disbelief isn't a signal that I'm familiar with in regard to blocking loving feelings and living in a loving reality. Could you explain the disbelief more? Not only do you expect, you feel disbelief when he doesn't say/do/think what you expected him to?

"And I see the tit for tat going on in my thinking here. I just don't see how our M is not only going to thrive, but blossom when my H won't meet my most important EN."

You see how much your thinking is affecting your experience...and then you say, you don't see how your M will thrive unless your H does/doesn't...blank."

You're doomed, Ruby. Give up. Every man you partner is doomed. He will always not meet your most important EN. I would advise your DH to stop working, move away and not see his children, not have contact to you...to go to Plan B...cut off all support...sincerely, I would advise this...so that you finally KNEW he actively was meeting your most important EN...which would then be very different from what you miss right now.

Do you hear me saying that the ENs he's not meeting aren't important or valid? No. I've asked you repeatedly to FIRST take your focus off of him, YOUR lack from him...so you can have a truly balanced and real perspective and perception before addressing YOUR lack.

You are lacking Ruby. You are one big hole. You refuse to address YOUR stuff first. I can't make you. No one can. I know your children are suffering for it...your H is suffering for it...and YOU are definitely suffering from it...and your suffering is very real.

It's a choice.

So are these: "I can see that I do this. I've quit sharing with my H because of his past reactions. These reactions have upset me and made me feel rejected, dismissed, etc, so now, I just don't share because I don't want to feel those things."

Within your power, your control...your knowledge. Only yours, in fact.

"What I have come to know based on how he has reacted throughout our relationship. It isn't one or two instances. It is consistant. I know there is room for change, there just hasn't been any change that I can see. Heck, even he has told me he isn't changing."

And that's what I see from you, Ruby. Consistency. No changes, rather I now hear you loud and clear...you aren't choosing to change. You know more now and refuse to change. I get that now. I'm sorry I've given you all I have, all the words and areas I can think of...you can't see change in him...nor yourself. Nor do I.

I'm still changing, to this day, to change my life experience, my marital experience. I can't imagine not changing with every discovery, sharing every delight and sorrow I uncover...more stuff to mourn which I cannot change in the past...sharing, sharing, sharing. Delighting to my half of the marriage with arms too small to hold all of it. Abundance.

My blessing, I guess. I can't see how anyone cannot have this...must be my fantasy.

When you choose to expect he will continue to act, do and not do, as he has in the past, then you will only see him as he was in the past...nothing new, no changes. Whether he's really changing or not. Your half is perception...as important as his actions.

You are stating that your DH doesn't speak, listen or comfort you. At all. Ever. You have a silent marriage. He talks and listens and comforts the children, his FOO, his friends, his coworkers...just not you. You are totally excluded in all ways...that's what I'm hearing you say and repeat.

Or is he not talking/listening/comforting you when you want it in the way you want it exactly, so you can feel/hear/believe it?

I can't tell, Ruby. To me you are as intractable as you describe your H. Doesn't surprise me. You both share a lot of similarities. So do the majority of married couples. Lots of similarities and important opposite stuff...a mix. What I get from you is he has all the answers...and he's not here. I can't help him. Only you are. As I was. Others helped me. I'm passing it on.

Just my half.

You are asking in this post what I see as the same questions you've asked me repeatedly...and I can't answer them differently this time...conveying it in another way, other words and analogies, sharing other experiences. I don't have anything new for you.

"I'm a little confused here. You said that my half is I choose to perceive these things about my H. Okay, but if these things are truly happening, how am I choosing to perceive them. To me, it isn't a choice, it's actual. He doesn't talk to me, listen to me or comfort me."

Bullhockey, Ruby. Your DJs are NOT truly happening at all. He isn't saying, "I only want you for sex. I use you like a doll. I'm thrilled that you are a robot in my life to be taken advantage of." I'm exaggerating because that's what I hear...until you can hear your own DJs, you won't know the acid you throw all over yourself and your family. You've defined the problem, the reality. It's yours. Not just your experience. I can't make it any clearer.

Maybe someone else will. When you don't even believe your choice of perspective and perception matter...only what you define as real, then you have no power, no blame, no place...you don't exist.

No wonder you feel rejected and unimportant.

Hard way to live, Ruby. I'm really sorry you're choosing that experience.

"I was saying I would be showing a disinterest in him if I didn't ask if anything was wrong or could I help him."

You love fantasy and you are living in DJ-land. How do you know if you not asking him if anything was wrong was disinterest? He could take it as "You're acting wrong" so if you didn't, he wouldn't feel a stab in his gut. Same for helping, "You need a lot of help. You're incapable, stupid and pitiful." He could actually hear that, Ruby. Is that disinterest? You don't know. You may never know because you aren't safe. Your beliefs are supreme, the only ones allowed. I'm sure he's been told not to think, feel, believe or perceive the way he does. Began with his mother, his father, his siblings and you're just carrying it on. Only difference is you were who he chose to be on his team...they weren't. He didn't have a choice. You were to be his ally, his best friend, the one he could finally be safe with.

Oh, well.

You don't have any control over that, do ya?

No, you're just telling him you see him as something wrong, not feeling right, not looking right, needing help, anyone's help...far, far from disinterest.

You may experience someone as disinterested in YOU when they don't act concerned for your stuff...state a desire to KNOW your stuff...not true for everyone. We're all different. You basing your actions not on love, though, that's all you. You stating and owning, "I am interested in you, your day, your thoughts...not to judge...to know. I love knowing you and who you are."

That's O&H. That's Ruby's power, her choice, her reality...I don't believe you'd state that, though, Ruby, as an act of love. I believe you'd only state that to GET him to react, to trust, to feel safe and to share.

And he won't trust you...he sees you based on your consistent past actions. You are who you were. You haven't changed. Yes, his choice to perceive you that way, not allowing room for change or ephiphany...but then, that's not in his control, is it? His perception doesn't matter...his choice to see you unchanged keeps you not safe, a threat, an enemy full of emotional traps...nothing he can do about that, eh?

Did you watch "What the Bleep Do We Know?" Do you remember the water...the ice crystallization? How it was impacted by intent? Changes the crystallization process. Intent has power. When we truly learn to trust our partners, we learn to trust their intent...not always their execution. In order to connect more fully, we must first be aware of OUR intent...our stuff...check it, hold it, know it and make it pure...then we will see our partner's intent in the same way, over time and practice.

Takes us choosing to do this for us, our marriage...regardless of what our partners do and don't do.

You acknowledge you hate a lot of "things" about yourself...past actions...body parts...emotions. What you cannot forgive in yourself, you cannot forgive in others. What you cannot accept as part of you, you cannot accept in others. That two-way street doesn't close down, ever.

You've identified where your choices are...even that you choose to accept, forgive, identify, know. You know that you choose your thoughts, DJs, and beliefs. You don't believe you choose how and what you perceive or how you view others and yourself. You don't choose to act on what you know. You don't choose to love and care for yourself, be your comfort, for the health of your marriage or your relationships with your children and others.

Until you do...until you choose to believe you are not lacking, you will continue to experience of life lacking what you need most. Until you do choose to love yourself thoroughly, wholly, as you are...then you will not experienced being loved fully and wholly for who you are.

You know all this. Your choices remain as choices. You have your own power...your own limits...your own freedom and real responsibility. You will not experience life differently than you do right now without choose differently.

I understand. And I don't. I couldn't NOT change. Once I knew, I couldn't go back and live without my power. Once I saw how harmful, destructive my choices had been, I couldn't continue them. Didn't want to...didn't want that life experience.

Thank you for reminding me to appreciate myself for that choice. I only saw it as the only way...forgot I could have chosen to continue experiencing lack, instead of abundance.

LA

Wow! Lot's of tough stuff for me to read.


To be honest with you, before I started this thread and read both your and ark's responses, SF to me was all about my H. Right now, I don't desire it. I initiate SF to meet my H's need. Now, I am trying to focus on the fact that SF isn't only a need for him, but his way of expressing his love, affection, need, etc for me. I'm obviously not there, but I am trying to turn my focus around.



Could you please elaborate? Especially with "You knowing what SF means to you and sharing that knowledge...listen to know what SF means to H...because it's an EMOTIONAL NEED...represents...isn't the end-all."


Can you tell me what this is suppose to do? What it accomplishes?


I am discounting those things. I see that. I don't mean they aren't important. I see me being the mother of his children and his household partner as how things are. He and I want the same things for our children so we work well together. He and I want the same things for our household, so we work well together.

I don't think I am clearly describing what I feel about this.

I know what a good father he is. I know how hard he works at his job and at home for our household. I know he is a good friend. I truly do appreciate those things. I just don't think I have anything to do with him doing those things.

Is that where my perception is getting in the way? Should I see those actions of his, father, household, friend, attributed to me somehow? He is a good father, contributes in many ways to our household and is a good friend because of me? Or for me?


Isn't this how a M becomes vulnerable? What about the stuff all over this site about meeting EN's and filling LB's? If I quit SF, isn't my H going to feel unloved and unwanted?


I know it doesn't seem this way, but I do appreciate that my H does all of these things. I tell him constantly how much I appreciate it. I am being selfish wanting more. I know that. That is one of the things that has me so tangled up in my head and heart. It's one of the topics I talk to my IC about. I know I am lucky that my H does all of this and I take it for granted, and I selfishly want more. I suppose I take it for granted because I do the same things because I expect it of myself, being a good parent, contributing to our household, being a friend. So I guess I am discounting myself too.



I always hug and kiss him good morning, the same when he leaves for work, comes home from work, and before we go to sleep. I also do this throughout the day whenever. I make his lunch when he isn't going out to or coming home for lunch. I call him during the day to tell him I was thinking of him, ask how his day is going, tell him I love him. I email him the same, or send a joke, etc. I hide love notes in his lunch, car, briefcase, etc. I ask about his day when he gets home, listen, ask questions, etc. I take him a drink while he is outside working. I deal with taking the kids to school and the sitter, pick them up on my lunch hour, and pick them up on my way home so he doesn't have to because I know how inconvenient it is for him. I make dinner for him. I help him with his medicine. I tickle his back if he is going to sleep, but I'm not. I ask him to come snuggle with me in bed to watch sports, instead of on the couch by himself. I try to keep the house picked up and clean so he doesn't have to worry about.

That's all I can think of right now. Of course, some of these are every day things, some are every few days things.


How do I act like a whole woman? I don't understand what you are saying here. I understand not acting a role, which isn't what I thought I was saying. I want to be a good wife and mother so I strive for those things through my actions. Is that being a role and not a whole woman?


When I said find happiness through my actions, I meant create happiness through my actions. Being a good wife and mother does create happiness for me. And in order for me to create that happiness, I need to stop focusing on my wants and needs that I feel are going unmet and what my H isn't or is doing and put my focus on me and what I can do to create/find that happiness.

Is that not the same thing?


Yes, I know I am doing this. I am trying to stop. It isn't easy for me because it's what I have done for so long. I am trying LA. It's just taking me a while to change this direction of thought.


Okay. Stop focusing on me. Me wanting my H to be/do/act a different way so I will benefit, tears him apart. Makes him feel not good enough, wrong, etc...all the things I hate to feel. Is that it?


I don't even know why I put that in there. LOL. It doesn't make any sense to me either.


Ouch!


My stuff being living with expectations and resentments, DJ's, tit for tat attitude, negative self-image?


It isn't that I don't want to change, I just don't understand it. All of this is so foreign to me. I question it, trying to make sense out of it.

That's still trying to figure out/manipulate the outcome isn't it?


I hate that you feel this way. You have really shed a huge amount of light for me. It's just taking me tiny little babysteps to get what you are saying. And although you don't see it here, where I am trying to understand this, figure out my way of thinking, see where I am going wrong, I am applying what you say at home. I feel inept doing it, lost like I don't know what I'm doing, but I am trying. Like I said, it is just so foreign to me. I don't know how else to describe it but as that.


No our M isn't silent. He isn't talking/listening/comforting me when I want how I want it. We talk about a lot things, every day things. It's the deeper things we stumble over. He is fine with the norm. The harder things, the hurtful things, we have trouble communicating about.


I was going to ask what I should have done in this particular situation. Should I have said anything?

Then I read this...


Is that what I should have said. Not brought up how I was reading him, but just let him know I'm interested in him?

But then I just read this...


What should I have done? Nothing? Because even thinking something was wrong was a DJ, so I shouldn't have assumed and said anything?

I thought saying that to get him to trust, feel safe and share is an act of love. But then I'm giving to get there too aren't I?

What would you have done?



So I need to trust that my H will talk to me if he wants to and when he wants to? I'm not real sure what you are saying here. What do you mean by intent?


I don't think this is entirely accurate. There are many things about myself that I don't like or can't forgive, but don't feel the same with others. I see myself being short as a negative, but I don't see it that way in others. I can't forgive myself for my betrayal to my H and my M, but I have forgiven and understood others for the same or even more, like a LTA.


I know this is true, but I just won't get it. My IC has tried so hard to work with me on this, and I am so stubborn about it. I think I am because believing the worse about myself is safe. If I already believe the worse, then no one else can hurt me. I've built it into some type of warped sense of protection.

LA, I am getting from your last post that you are very frustrated with me. I don't blame you. I'm frustrated with me. I do want you to know that I am not dismissing anything you have written to me. I am having a hard time with it, but I'm not giving up. Your help has been and is very much appreciated. Thank you.

One more thing, can you tell me how you define perspective and perception?

Thank you.

Ruby,

"Could you please elaborate? Especially with "You knowing what SF means to you and sharing that knowledge...listen to know what SF means to H...because it's an EMOTIONAL NEED...represents...isn't the end-all."

No. You already answered that in your first paragraph. Covered territory.

"Can you tell me what this is suppose to do? What it accomplishes?"

No. You'll know what it does or doesn't do if you choose to do it.

Ruby, when you stop discounting what you said you know you discount, then ask me your question, 'k? When you value and are aware of your big picture, you may have different questions.

"Isn't this how a M becomes vulnerable? What about the stuff all over this site about meeting EN's and filling LB's? If I quit SF, isn't my H going to feel unloved and unwanted?"

Having SF only to meet his need...not bringing your whole self, all your acceptance, gratitude and connection to it...is that saying he's loved and wanted? Or is it keeping something checked off, to hold against him? Another thing you do...meet his most important need while he doesn't meet yours? There is a ton of affection in SF...there is...only if you take it.

You say you know you're discounting to him and yourself. You know this. If he DJs you believing you meet his needs to get yours met...then tell me, Ruby, how are you following the four rules of marriage? How are you acting from love? You DJ him, he DJs you...neither of you thriving. Your marriage isn't thriving. You know the way...yet you keep asking for the way. I'm the one who doesn't understand.

You say you state your appreciation all the time to H. Yet in your post, you discount the ENs he does meet. So I don't get it. Are you lying to your H? Are you using the "but" in your statements of appreciation..."Yeah, I love that, but"?

You are getting affection through your choice to act affectionately. Are you discounting those actions, as well? When you hug, your affection is being received...it can be rejected, pushed away...not allowed by him. Do you see his receiving it, hugging back, at all?

"How do I act like a whole woman?"

You said you want to be desired as a woman...when you don't desire you for your own self. You want H to desire you, romance you, the woman. I'm asking if you act from your belief you are a woman...not a role of any kind. Just you.

You say you create happiness in your actions. I don't hear it, Ruby. You say you do this by focusing on your own stuff...not H's. I don't see that in your posts. Can you show me in your previous posts where I missed you doing this?

Do you get a thrill out of making his lunch, calling him (he answers), tickling his back, hugging and kissing him, listening to him about his day, his thoughts? Do you feel connected, filled and happy?

About disbelief...you're not sure why you included it. I'm not discounting it. I believe you feel disbelief at times and it concerns me. Can be a totally different signal. Need to know when you feel it, in what context and situation.

"My stuff being living with expectations and resentments, DJ's, tit for tat attitude, negative self-image?"

Yes...and...self-discounting, self-punishment and self-degradation. You've identified all of these things that you know you do...and you know you give yourself permission to do.

And I hear your Ouch...I was sincere. I hear you asking me repeatedly to predict your future...so I did. I perceive your questioning, choices to believe and focus on H over your own stuff as you making this future become your present.

If you could experience life without your DH, then you may have the motivation to choose your thoughts, stop with the self-loathing and focusing on lack. Worked for me. I had that shock...lived in that reality. You haven't. It takes what it takes for us to choose to change. When it is MORE pain to stay the same than to change, we change.

"It isn't that I don't want to change, I just don't understand it. All of this is so foreign to me. I question it, trying to make sense out of it.

That's still trying to figure out/manipulate the outcome isn't it?"

Yes, it is...I'm happy you see that. Relieved. Find the payoff you receive from continuing to live as you have...same beliefs, resentment, anger, sadness, rejection, frustration, disappointments and disconnection. You have payoffs...we do not do that which we do not want to do...get to your unseen payoffs and possibly, the foreigness will melt away.

You admit you overstated that he doesn't talk/listen/comfort. He communicates. You don't communicate your stuff and hold him at fault for that. You can communicate your stuff, anyway. All the things you're doing and why you are doing them now. Your goal and dream...how much you want to love yourself, know and respect yourself. That you desire to live from respect to get there. That you have faith in yourself, him and your marriage. All that you're sharing here is behind your H's back because YOU choose not to share...and because you choose to assume he doesn't listen. I believe you know he does. I believe you want to control how he listens, what he says in response and for him to change.

And to assume he's fine with the norm. You don't know. He doesn't share.

"I thought saying that to get him to trust, feel safe and share is an act of love."

Until you can share because you trust yourself, feel safe knowing and sharing your stuff, and share as an act of love of self and commitment to your own code, then you won't get what we're doing here. How powerful your half of the marriage really is...and I understand. Again, it may take a crisis, a castastrophe...a shock to find out he's not okay with the usual and hasn't been for a long time.

You doing your part...not assuming in your mind anything about him...makes him new. Makes you new. And right now.

Intimacy is knowing your own stuff and sharing it with your partner. Takes one.

You gotta believe you're worth sharing...worth knowing...worth connecting with, doesn't it?

That you aren't boring, complaining, small, insignificant, ungrateful, stupid, long-suffering, a victim or helpless...whatever runs through your head...self-DJs, not your truth.

You know your H will share with you, his stuff, when he chooses. His choice. His power. And he does share with you...about his day, this thoughts, etc. You can choose to discount what he shares, or hear him sharing.

Your intent is solely yours...to choose, know and align to it. You can't know his until he shares.

"I don't think this is entirely accurate. There are many things about myself that I don't like or can't forgive, but don't feel the same with others. I see myself being short as a negative, but I don't see it that way in others. I can't forgive myself for my betrayal to my H and my M, but I have forgiven and understood others for the same or even more, like a LTA."

Trust me, it's a two-way street. You can tell yourself differently. Your choice. If you don't amend your life, then you aren't asking for your own forgiveness. There's just a stain, no scrubbing it out. No redemption. You may believe you've forgiven others...and you may act as if you can forgive them...which you cannot...if you cannot forgive yourself. You are separate and equal to every one on the planet. What you don't do for yourself, you truly are not doing for others. This isn't a Ruby issue...it's a human one. When you break it down, you'll see this...that you choose to believe you really do for others that which you don't do for yourself...such as forgiveness...may be part of the self-deception which is inherent with resentment, earning love and significance...I dunno. I just know when I got to my core stuff, the two-way street was in full effect.

Yes, I am frustrated...have been from about my third response to you. I choose to continue responding. That's mine...out of your control. I know that I learn to communicate better, discover more in my own process through explaining and sharing it...I know my payoff. I don't know when my payoff isn't worth it anymore.

I want to know this...if you are used to lying to yourself, hiding your stuff from yourself...then how do you know you are sincere in changing your beliefs? What if your self-deception automatics still have a higher self-payoff for you?

What self-deception? That you are safe when you disconnect, remove, hate yourself, degrade and disdain your innocent self...and that you refuse to see you do this to DH, to your children, your friends and relatives, as well. You do. Accepting that you truly do...P/A tactics, hypocrisy, I dunno...I did it so many ways...sacrificing, martyr stuff, victimhood...can't think of all the ways which disrespected, degraded and harmed my relationships in other ways.

What I hear is that you're refusing to see how much harm you are doing in your life. You focus only on your good stuff...not reality. You like others feeling sorry for you? Makes you significant and real to feel pain, feel injured? To injure and cause pain? What's your stuff that a dedicated professional can't get through?

Your lie that you are safe in not loving yourself is HUGE. It's a terrible, destructive lie...to everyone you will ever come into contact with. You're teaching your children this lie...to live in fantasy. Whoa. I don't believe for a second you want to live that way. No way. And definitely not for your kids, either.

Passing down what was passed to you isn't parenting, btw.

Perception...your filter (containing all your stuff) that information coming in goes through...where your belief "this person always lies" will take whatever statement or action as a lie. That's your perception.

Your perspective is how you choose to see others, things, how you experience life. The "This person always lies" is a chosen perspective. "This person is sincere." "This person is a hypocrite." "This person is hurting right now." How you view is the perspective. What you perceive (like receive) has perspective mixed in...two separate choices.

Listen and repeat is how we clear up this overlap and really hear our stuff. Listen and repeat with filter is..."I heard you say you believe I'm too sensitive. My filter says you mean I'm defective, or choose to be emotional, is that correct?"

You can hear your OWN stuff better in listen and repeat. Because of God's two-way street...what you do for others, you do for yourself. If you're going to clarify or confirm...you'll get that in yourself. It's a FANTABULOUS design. Stunning, amazing and doesn't fail.

Truly doesn't.

LA

LA,

I want to thank you again for all the advice and time you have taken to give to me. I truly appreciate it. Everything you have said has given me a new view of what I thought my problems were.

I came here looking for help with my M, and now I realize it isn't my M that needs help right now. It's me. WOW!! I mean, I knew I had issues that were influencing my M, but I didn't think those issues were as INFLUENCING as they are.

I'm lost. Right now, in my life, I feel lost. You and others have given me direction to stop being so lost, so I'm going to work on that. I have lots to learn, and I'm pretty excited about that.

Right now, I have no more questions. I need to work on the ones I've already asked. Thank you for showing me that.

I'll be back when I have more questions. Could be today, lol, who knows.

Thank you again for all of your responses.

LA, or anyone, I have a question, if you can please help.

How do you stop yourself from reacting?

I "find" myself in the middle of reacting instead of clarifying and confirming. I stop and try to redirect myself, but I feel as if the "damage" is already done.

Example, this weekend, I was trying to talk to my H about something our child did and as I was talking, he turned around and started walking away. I followed and kept talking. This, walking away while I'm talking, is something he used to do a lot and I have talked with him about in the past. Anyway, I stopped and said, why do you do that? Walk away while I'm talking to you. He said, I just figured you would follow me.

I realized then that I was following the same old pattern with our communication so I said, I feel you don't hear me when you walk away while I am talking. I think you aren't interested in what I am saying.

So he turned around, stood there looking at me and waited for me to finish with the story. I did and he said, are you done now? I said yes and thanks.

I'm pretty sure I lost him with how I started out, pointing out how he walks away while I am talking.

Is there a way for me to become more aware of not reacting? Or is it something that with each experience becomes more learned?

Hey rubydoo,

I'm always thinking scooby-doo when I see your name. In fact, scooby-dooby doo!....runs through my head, lol.

I have the exact same issue. I'm prone to react at a perceived slight. I have gotten better but it does take a lot of time. I have kind of trained myself to never react to anything immediately (although I have blown it lately).

Is it possible he just doesn't think it's a big deal. Could he have had his mind on something else and was trying to keep his train of thought on what he was doing, multitasking of sorts. We do it all the time. In fact, I will be walking from the kitchen to the bedroom to put stuff away and DH will stop me to tell me something and I will bristle (but keep myself there) because I was in the middle of doing stuff and I want to finish it, putting away the laundry or whatever.

I agree it's not the most polite thing, but it seems that us wives tend to focus on those nuances a lot more.

How about just asking him (respectful request) to stop and listen to you for a minute, (or if he has a minute to listen to something) instead of asking him why he did it. Was he moving when you started your story or sitting still?

Kind of like asking my then-3 year old why she got into my nailpolish and painted her nails, toes and the knobs on her dresser. Kind of pointless...seemed like a good thing to do at the time, lol! BTW, the naipolish has been moved.

Although I defer any and all advice to LA when she arrives, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey MAZ!

You know, training myself not to react to any situation instead of limiting it to my interactions with H is the way to go. It will be in my head more and become more natural in a variety of situations. Which is a good thing. Thanks!

As to why my H does this, I have no idea. This weekend, we were standing in our bedroom, I was talking and he just sort of starts walking away.

I don't think he is being mean, but I feel like he isn't interested in what I am saying because of it.

Do you think it's wrong of me to share with him about how it makes me feel when he does this?

Also, has anyone here read The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands by Laura Schlessinger? If so, what did you think?

I have read part of it, and parts of her newest, the Care and Feeding of Marriage. I did like what I read. Interestingly enough, prior MB, I would've balked at a lot of it...but I have a whole new perspective on it now, thank goodness.

Some women really have an issue with Dr. Laura which I think is fueled by their desire for independent living and some of the wayward mindset (entitlement/resentment).

As for sharing...my little humble opinion is that you should. If it were me, I would word it something like I just want to share, because it is in my code to not withold anymore. Witholding builds resentment and I do not want to build resentment. Not sharing to make you change, make you feel bad or put you down but just so you know.

Then let it go.

If he changes behavior because of it, great...if not, remember he is not telling you he is not interested in what you have to say. This is your perception, not based on anything he actually said...I'm assuming.

I'm also assuming you do not do the same thing. In fact, making sure you give him your attention when he is trying to talk to you, I think, is important to show him. For example, I have started saying "let me finish putting these towels away and I'll be right back, I wanted to hear what you're saying"...Then I come back right away and plop down beside him and ask him what did he want to tell me, making sure I make eye contact. I know this is important for my DH to feel like I'm listening to him. And I think if you treat him the way you want to be treated he might just start following suit.

Regardless, you're being the best rubydoo you can be!

Little things like that I might put in an email, in between other mundane things...I know he's read it, no opportunity for him to debate me on the rightness or wrongness of my feelings.

Thanks MAZ!

The negatives I have heard about that book seem to go inline with exactly what you said.


Sounds good. When I stopped myself, changed the direction I was going in, communication wise, I believe I was going in the above direction. It was a short convo and I made sure my tone was light. I should have added in that I know he wasn't intentionally doing this, dismissing me or uninterested in what I was saying.

And I did let it go after that. No problems. I just want to make sure I am going about this in a positive way. Plus, be more aware of clarifying and confirming.

I need to make sure I am paying 100% attention to him when he is talking too, and not multi-tasking. LOL!

Ruby,

To clarify, you don't know if H was choosing to walk away intentionally, dismissing or wasn't interested in what you were telling...either way.

I would like you to consider he walks away on purpose...and be okay with it as much as being okay that he may be interested and expecting you to follow...either way, his choices, not yours and not really about you.

You may be informing him of something which doesn't interest him. On him, not you. Doesn't mean for one second YOU are uninteresting...which is the button I would push in myself...equating DH's choices with myself...about ME. That was when I would be reactive...my own DJ "he's not interested in me"...so knowing what is behind your reactivity (your signals) and see what you're doing, separate from what's being done...well, that's crucial to acting, not reacting.

And the more you know about your own perception (how you're interpreting his actions), the less reactive you will be, and the better boundaries you can draw.

For instance...if you can really get his choices are not about you, then you can have reasonable boundary enforcements...such as, when he walks away, you stop talking. Whatever you wanted to share stops. If you were informing him of something, you don't reiterate again. And as you already decided, when he talks, you don't walk...full attention, no multi-tasking.

This would be mutual respect. Very positive...not retaliatory. Respects choices and decisions. No DJing or guesswork involved. I think you'll see where your conversations with others changes, as well.

Changing habits and choosing new perspectives and perceptions. When you change your belief...that he's walking away from his reasons, not about you...then you don't get the strong signals of rejection, discounting, dismissal.

Life changes.

Very positive.

LA

For the first time in a long time, my H asked me something the other night about my ONS. I knew "it" was in the air because we were watching a show that had some questionable actions of a wife in it.

We talked. I answered his question and listened to and agreed with his comments about it. I told him again how truly sorry I was and that I hated that I had brought this into our marriage. I also told him that I appreciated that he gave me another chance and that I know none of this has been easy for him. He told me he knew how sorry I was, which was a huge thing for me to hear. Besides my tears, something I can not control for the life of me, it was a good talk.

Here's the thing, since then, I've felt distant from my H. Nothing he has done, but all me. I've been working hard to focus on the present, meeting my H's needs, finding all the ways my H meets my needs, and just the all around good stuff. Now, I'm feeling distant again.

I recongize that it isn't anything he has done, it's me. I'm thinking that I'm feeling this way because our talk stirred up all those negative feelings I have for myself regarding what I did. I'm back to being right there, face to face with what I hate the most about myself.

So could it be that I am feeling distant again because of how I am feeling about myself? And if that's a possibility, what do I do about it?

LA, I really need your opinion on something. And I apologize how long this is.

This past week, we were visiting relatives. These relatives had a bb gun that my H and 7yo ds used to practice shooting. We are not a hunting family, no real guns, etc. However, my ds is in boyscouts and evidently had bb gun target practice at their last camp out, with my H there. Ds was all excited about shooting the bb gun at relatives, and even though guns scare me to death, I didn't have a problem with ds and H practicing together.

When they ran out of bb's, my H came in while my ds stayed outside with the gun. Now I will be the first to admit I don't know a thing about guns but I do feel ds should not have been left alone outside with the bb gun, even if there wasn't bb's in it. My H said there wasn't a problem because there wasn't any bb's in it. It was the same as if he was playing with one of his toy guns. I told him I didn't think it was the same because his toy guns can not be loaded with something. And, as we were speaking, my ds was outside pointing the bb gun at our 4yo dd, which really freaked me out. My H opened the door and told ds not to point the bb gun at anyone.

I tried explaining how ds just wasn't knowledgable enough in regards to gun and gun safety. And that since guns/bb guns weren't a part of our lives, I thought we were sending him mixed messages about when it is okay to play with a gun without supervision and when it is not, no bb's or loaded with bb's. I also thought the same in letting him play with an unloaded bb gun as if it were one of his toy, plastic guns.

My H completely disagreed with me and told me I coddle him too much. I told him maybe I do, but I didn't think this particular incident was about me coddling him too much. It was about keeping him safe as well as anyone around him while he has that bb gun.

As we are having this convo, we are watching him through a window, and once again he points the bb gun at dd. H told him he had to put it away since he pointed it at dd again. And that was that.

The kid is a typical boy. He loves to play war, cowboys and indians, pirates, etc. He is used to playing with toy plastic guns. Nobody gets hurt with those. He isn't experienced with having a bb gun. I'm afraid right now, he just doesn't have the knowledge about gun safety to make responsible decisions. It also concerns me that he isn't old enough, experienced enough, whatever to seperate that you can play with toy guns, but "real" guns are not the same, especially since H was okay with letting him play with the unloaded bb gun.

My H told me I was over reacting. Maybe I was, but like I said, I don't know a thing about guns or how to teach gun safety to a child or what is okay. The entire conversation, my H and I just went around in circles. I was trying very hard to show him my concerns without making him out to be the bad guy. I don't know if I handled this right or not.

I feel like it was and is a very serious issue. I am very concerned because of the danger surrounding it. How do I get my point across without putting my H down about something that deals with our children's safety?

Thank you.

o/t

Why is there no edit button on my posts until about half way down the 2nd page?

I wanted to edit the title of this thread but there is not edit button at my first post.

Strange.

Bramblerose,

I just read your latest post to wildhorses, and what you said about "helping" your H parent your children really rang true with me. I was wondering if you could give me some advice in regards to that?

If you have the time, please read a couple of posts up about a situation last weekend with my H and our DS.

I also, have a couple other questions if you don't mind helping me out with them. Please let me know.

Thank you.