Hey all.

I figured the post by Notashoped would create a lot of traffic over on Sis's thread,,,,so thought a new one was in order.

I wanted to title this that Kids are NOT just collateral damage in these situations, but thought better of it.

This isn't to beat up on Notashoped, but to get off the TJ on Sis's thread,,,,,,,,,

Here's the Post by Notashoped -



Daze shared some very insightful (and painful) personal experience as well = I was moved by this quote -



Mulan added -


CL, Chris, Eagle and others also had some good posts.

I am struggling with getting my WH to remotely understand the DAMAGE, both short and long term this will do to our children.

ESPECIALLY in regards to bringing the OW around NOW and trying to pass her off as just a friend!

So,,,,, the thread is wide open all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I see what this has done to my kids. WH DOES NOT EVEN HAVE A CLUE. He can walk out the door and choose to ignore it. And actually, he has. SEVERAL times.

My WH actually tries to use his kids as the excuse for leaving. " I did it for them so they didn't have to watch us argue." BULL! Do you really think these kids want us to seperate? Come on...

And my WH USED to tell me that line about I left YOU not THEM. THAT IS ALL [email]CR@P.[/email] You left ALL of us. Even the dog.

This person is obviously a WS.

I want to put a hidden video in my house to record my daughters actions when he leaves. I want him to SEE THE HURT HE IS CAUSING. I want him to see my 3 year old baby SOBBING on my kitchen floor because daddy left. I want him to hear her say she hates when he leaves. I want him to be up all hours of the night with her when she is crying because daddy isn't there. Or when she tries to call him and he never answers, so she eventually gives up. Or when she cries because she has learned to associate the playground with her dad, because that is where we meet him, and she can't be there all the time.

WS's are VERY good at turning the blind eye. My heart aches everyday for my babies.

Bugs,

I actually agree with both of you.

Here is why. I agree your WH is not being a good father. I agree he abandoned his commitment to you and your M. Heck he may have even abandoned his role as a full time father. But he didn't abandon his children if he takes part in their lives.

I am a firm believer in not dragging the kids in the middle of it.

When my parents got a D it hurt. All kids feel that way. But don't tell them "Your Dad Abaondoned you" They will feel like they had something to do with their fathers bad choices.

It sucks but if their dad is part of their lives he didn't abandon them. Just a lot of the responsibilities a man has if he were married and a full time father.

The best thing you can tell them is Your Father loves you very much. He always will. I love you very much and I always will. Unfortunately right now Mom and Dad might not stay married. I wish that we could but we do love you very much. No matter what happens always remember that.

I see your point Frog..but I think that would be the scenario if this were a "normal" divorce. Where the two parents couldn't stay married for reasons other than adultry.

These kids are not only dealing with the divorce, but then all of a sudden expected to function in a "new" family with a new stepmom/dad and possibly stepsiblings.

Do you know how hard it is to start a second family? It takes YEARS before each new member of that family finds their place. And that is AFTER the first marriage has been over and dealt with. Imagine being a little kid and having all thrown at you at once?? Where is their time to grieve?

Frog,,,


I'm not trying to argue any POV here, , , just wanted to move the discussion from sis's thread where it was taking over her thread.


I would NEVER tell my children this - -


I think the discussion is more about how the KIDS feel and how the WS chooses to PERCEIVE the kids as being OK based on their WS POV.

But this would be a lie. If Daddy really loved them "very much" he would put them way above some OW, who has no place in the family dynamic-- other than intruder. If Daddy loved them "very much" he would move heaven and earth to make sure that their little hearts were protected, beginning with not subjecting them to OW DURING the time he is divorcing their Mother-- which is heartbreak enough. He would at least get them through that ordeal first.

The best thing to tell them is the truth. Daddy loves you but he's making bad choices right now that have nothing to do with you.

Just my 2 cents.

Thankyou Bugs. I hated TJing LS's thread but I just could not sit back with no response to that!!!

I guess it really struck a nerve. My dad has actually made the statement recently that he realizes now he did wrong, that he did abandon us and he wishes he could change it now.

Very sad for all concerned that he didn't see it then.

My FWH said all of the same fogged out phrases that he was leaving me not the children, they wouldn't be affected, etc. They only showed me they were hurt so I must be reading into it or feeding them full of crap!!!

After he came home he has finally started to acknowledge the pain he inflicted on his kids. He has gotten to see some of the fallout firsthand.

I told my son that his daddy was making choices that were bad for everyone, not just me and DS. That daddy was hurting as well as mommy and him.

I also tried to reinforce that these choices were not made INTENTIONALLY to hurt him, but they hurt DS just the same. DS agreed. I told DS that HE was in no way the cause of daddy's bad decisions and that he is loved.

As for my son's reaction to his daddy leaving; let's see, he first starting having emotional outbursts, then he started pushing and hitting, not listening, talking back. During this time of anger, he also began fearing being alone in his room, or anywhere near darkness (which is not totally attributed to his daddy leaving, but it was REALLY BAD). I had to rock him to sleep, and if he heard me walking away, he would spring up in bed and beg me to stay .

Eventually, his fear became so bad that there were many nights that he slept with me. Recently, DS was saying how much he missed his daddy, wanted him home, BUT (and I'm glad I talked to him straight now) he knew that daddy loved him, he was just making bad choices.

Honestly, I told my son that his daddy loved him, and I loved him VERY MUCH. I could not speak for his father, I left that for him to do...

Even in getting back together and attempting to work things out, my son is on watch. He is also wary of his father, and whether he will 'stay'.

Not:

I can understand how you want the time after Plan D for everyone to be lovey-dovey and friends.

But the Wayward Spouse has cut the family to ribbons.

I tried. But could never complete the job.

Because I wanted to spend as much time as possible with my son.

Not on Wed Nite and every other weekend.

Every Night. I wanted to have those evenings when we were hanging out and having silly fun and everyone is laughing and giggling and cutting up.

Not going to happen after Plan D.

Do not have the time. And the other stresses will diminish all that.

So.

Abandonment?

YES. Completely and utterly.

All the other "time" spent is merely what is required.

And every child deserves more than that.

I regret every hour that I stole from my W to be with OW. And I stole Hours/Days/Months all told from her. I tried not to steal from my son. But I did.

If we had Divorced? W would have followed the terms of the agreement. But I would have lost SO MUCH.

Anyone who really thinks different is mistaken.

LG

I agree. This is exactly what I told my kids.

I will make my POV perfectly clear. D sucks for kids no matter what the reason is.

Infidelity is like an infection that spreads throught the whole family dynamic.

So I will articulate it this way.

The D is hard enough, infidelity is horrible but the last thing I would want my children to think is their MOM was a horrible person that abandoned them.

Especially since the D is going to be a horrible event if it occurs, for the children.

Yes the WS actions are nothing more then destruction on everyone around them including their children.

The WS being in the FOG they are in they don't see things clearly.

They really believe that they love their children and they can keep their wayward behavior from effecting them.

A clear head will see that not to be true.

My point is the WS is doing damage make sure as a BS we try not to contribute to the damage being done.

Be the bigger person is what I am trying to say.

Frog, I think what I was trying to say is that it is not my position to tell me son that daddy loves him, it is daddy's position. I can't speak for him, he must do that himself. If he chooses not to do that, and i tell my son that daddy loves him, my son will begin to believe that I lie to him, as his daddy has said or DONE nothing to show him this love I speak of.

I agree with softening the blow for the kids, as much as you can, but I won't speak for his daddy.

I told my son that daddy loved him, but backed it up with reasons that daddy's love HURT right now. When I talked to (F)WH recently about DS, he said that he wanted to be with him, be his father, not miss any more time with him. He may have realized that he couldn't be a parent from afar, not really, and that he was damaging his son. You see, no matter what I say or do, no matter how much I attempt to protect my DS, the truth will always come through. Painful? Heck yeah! I would rather live in the truth and face the problems, so that is how I teach, and that is what son is learning FROM ME.

My parents divorced and separated as a result of infidelity. We lived with my mother, and saw my father on weekends. He paid child support, but sometimes finances were still tough.

But it was my mother who was unfaithful. Nobody "abandoned" us. But the end result was the same as that described by many of the posters above.

For us, the hardest part was NOT the split of the family. It was the fights between my parents after they split. My father was understandably bitter about the situation and never missed an opportunity to make his bitterness known to anyone in hearing distance. There were occasional fistfights, even years later. I tried to stay constantly on guard not to say anything that would provoke my father to think or talk about my mother's OM. But sometimes I would slip. My mother was wrong to have an affair. But it was wrong of my father to make his children feel responsible the way he did.

The other hard part was the entry of a step-parent into the family. I've said this a number of times: my parents' divorce was NOTHING compared to their remarriages. It breaks my heart to see how many divorced people remarry with so little understanding of the disruption they are causing their children.

Kids see who the bigger person is. Even my 3 and 2 year olds can see.

I tell my kids daddy loves them. But they still don't question that if daddy loves us so much why isn't he here? And they say it in a way like "Daddy loves me..." almost like they are convincing themselves that yeah, daddy loves me. Because he sure as [censored] doesn't show it.

sorry...was that a rant?

SL,

even though I was two posts behind you we were cross posting so I didn't see yours.

I agree. The kids KNOW exactly what is going on.

No it is not our place to explain another persons love for someone else.

My kids knew who was right and wrong they all do. They are not stupid little creatures.

I guess the buzzword is abandonment issues now a days.

I would hate to add to that with my kids.

The WS left the family and in turn the kids but again I woulnd't ever say that to my kids.

I think it hits home because my dad left my mom. That is what my mom told us.

Mommy and Daddy Love you but they need to be apart now.

I knew my dad was leaving the M but he was always my dad.

I would hate a kid to think their father/mother doesn't really love them.

Rambling again.

Hope it makes sense.

Here's some adult kids' perspectives:

DD 25 said once "He didn't just divorce you, he divorced all of us" after he told her no matter what happened between me and him, he would continue to be her friend (she's an "extra" daughter-adopted after her mom died of cancer.)

DD21 said "he chose the OW over us. She stole my dad and I want nothing to do with either of them if they stay together."

DS18 commented on how his dad rarely calls when he is at college and won't look him in the eye any more. "He doesn't seem to care about us any more".

Frog, I get what you are getting at. I wouldn't want to compound my kids pain either. Divorce hurts, and I have done all that I can to help my son deal with his pain, it is up to his dad to join in.

No matter what, my son has pain that he will have forever. Hopefully, he will learn to trust in his folks again. Hopefully, with open conversations and a willingness to SHOW him that we will be there for him and listen, he will get through well balanced.

Okay, here goes...I am dealing with this now. I am the sole custodian of a 14 month old son, ex WW has visitation. Ex WW is still in an adulterous R with affair partner and plans to marry once he is divorced from his wife of 26 years. OM is 58, Ex WW is 35 (old doctor and young nurse). He has been referred for sex addiction, has confessed to 13 separate affairs/sexual escapades on two wives to this point. He is narcissitic, and pathetic and lastly and most important a sorry excuse for a human being.

I have no intention of legitmizing my ex ww's relationship adulterous or married affair partners when it comes to involving our son. I want my ex to have a good relationship with our son but I will make no effort to include or legitimize a relationship with that POS who was party to destroying my and other's families. She doesn't seem to get this. I on occassion will allow her extra time w/ our son under the premise that OM will not be around. She hates this but I don't care. Over my dead body will this POS ever have any influence on my son of any magnitude. If ex WW wants to have more of a R w/ our son it excludes that idiot, period. She wants to legitimize it all. She will be divorced from him within 5 years anyway (he will cheat, she will cheat or he will be too broke to keep her up).

I will paint my ex ww a good picture for our son as long as she doesn't try and force this idiot into the picture otherwise when he's old enought I will tell him just who this POS is.

Since it started on my thread....

I said something like this to the boys, "What he is doing is wrong and hurtful, and we can only hope that he stops doing wrong and hurtful things. He'll always have a place in our lives, but we don't have to accept what he is doing as okay just because we love him."

I want to emphasize the point someone else made about a D occuring between two rational adults who have done EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER to avoid destroying the family that they created. This is an entirely different situation.

Leaving one's spouse and children to pursue a relationship with someone else...without having tried ANYTHING to protect the family....especailly one's own children....

It's dispicable.

I don't call it "abandonment" to the boys, but I think they've kind of figured it out on their own. From their perspective...he just left. Poof! And he's living somewhere else, only peripherally involved in their lives. Sure, he's paying CS...but what do THEY know or understand about that? All they know is that he's not at home anymore...he JUST LEFT.

He took away a whole component of their lives. He just took it away from them.

This may be OT, but I am very sensitive to the whole words/actions dynamic. WH uses words ("I love you") but his actions demonstrate otherwise. To both me AND the boys. Even pre-d-day, because he was so distant and short with all of us.

I continue to worry about the TWISTED view of what "love" is that the boys will take away from this...

Lil Sis, This is absolutely true. A divorce without an intruder and betrayal is completely different than one with it. No comparasion.