WW had 18mnth EA after 14yrs marriage. Physical relations were progressively worse during EA but ok... once/wk, not redhot, always initiated by me, though, and not very affectionate (used to be very affectionate)

After discovery (and NC), physical relations stopped for 3wks but resumed but still with little affection. Understandable... with fog and withdrawal, etc.

My behavior during months after discovery was unstable and several times outright mean to her to make her feel ashamed of what she did.

At 3 months, suddenly, physical relations stopped and I got the, "I'm not attracted to you anymore" which was culmination of progressive, "you don't and never will meet my EN" talks. Seems like after she got past initial shock of discovery, she got 'in touch' with how unhappy she was with me and felt free to express it more directly.

Virtually certain NC still intact (snoop all comms).

I hear the whole 'fog' concept and keep hoping for it to lift but can't understand how we seem to have gotten worse rather than better. Was hoping for affection and physical relations to have improved by 3months.

No affection or physical relations seems like it will drag out recovery much longer and make it more painful (at least for me).

Some on this board say stick w/ Plan A, improve yourself, make yourself more attractive. Others say, she should try to force herself to improve affection/physical relations with the idea that feelings and emotions will follow actions.

I'm definitely hoping for the latter but does anyone have ideas how I can broach the topic of her trying to move forward affectionately and physically while she doesn't yet have back her feelings? Or is consensus that I should just wait it out... but I fear she will never give me the green light.

First of all, stick with one thread. It makes it easier to follow.


Yes, your point being? I think for some WS this is a test to see if you've changed or to convince themselves things won't go back to the way they were before the A.


I would say both. They problem is that you only control the former, not the latter. You need to take care of what only you can control.


Listen, you obviously had some problems in your marriage before the A. Identify them and work on those issues. Have faith in what you have that things will get better. Even if they don't (which they most likely do) you will be a much better person for having made your own changes, and this will help you in the next relationship you are in. They say that women gobble up MB men quickly.

Read Ark's Thread About Plan A

LTH,

Let me talk to you like a Dutch uncle for a minute... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

You only have control over you, not her. You can't control her feelings, her emotions, her wants or fears or anything else that is "hers" alone.

Do you actually spend time with her doing fun things together? Do you meet her ENs, not by discussing them, but by doing things that actually make LB$ deposits? Do you show affection without SF overtones? (What Neil McClendon calls NST or nonsexual touching)

If you think back to when you were first dating, you weren't trying to convince her to marry you by telling her how great it could be. You were doing things, without even thinking about it, that made her feel attracted to you. That needs to be your focus for right now. It might mean she will not meet your ENs including SF. Only you can decide how much effort you can manage, but it takes a lot more than many people realize when they first start.

Plan A sounds like a simple plan, but doing it, consistently and repeatedly is what can turn the tide. Be very careful that you don't fall into the trap of spending all your time trying to "fix" anything, either her or the marriage.

In his book Fall In Love/Stay In Love, Dr Harley points out that the whole idea of the 15 hours per week of undivided attention is to lead to meeting each other's ENs by doing things together, almost effortlessly, without having to lay out a plan of doing so.

A "typical" man has as his top 2 (or at worst, 2 of his top 4 or 5) the ENs of Recreational Companionship and SF. The "typical" woman has the ENs of Conversation and Affection. By spending time together, he gets his need for RC met, she enjoys the time with him because they talk to each other and this leads to affection being shown, which ultimately leads to SF.

But it can't start with "My top need is SF, so you have to meet my need!" It has to start with wooing her and making her feel safe with you. The place you were in just before the A was not someplace that you got to overnight and you can't get back to where you need to be overnight either.

You need to get to a point of trying to make yourself the best you that you can be, forgetting about whether she is meeting your ENs or not for a while and just show her what you are capable of. All of this has to happen in the total absence of love busters, or anything you do right will be wiped out. (It only takes one "ohshit." to wipe out ten thousand "attaboys.") <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

You can't say anything that will make her love you. You have to make enough deposits into her LB$ to make her feel in love with you.

You need a really long first date for a while. Impress her! But not with what you know. She won't care how much you know until she knows how much you care.(Yeah, it's a cliche, but applies) You can show this by doing for her even though she is not doing for you.

If she feels like she is in a cage, she will bolt at the first sign of the door being left unlocked. The secret is not to try to change her, but to change you so that she wants to change herself.

Mark

Thanks for this... I think I need to get smacked in the head with the truth sometimes before it sinks in.

If it's 10,000:1 for attaboys to ohshits, I'm in trouble... I'm running more like 10:1.

I really appreciate you taking the time to write all this. This all rings very true... hard to do and pretty unfair (since I really feel she stuff to change and apologize, as well) but true.

Thanks again.

LTH,

I know from experience that the desire to "fix" the problem is strong for a BS. We think that if we can get to the bottom of it and solve it, everything will get back to the way it should be.

Couple that with the loss of trust, not just in the WS, but in our own ability to make judgments about our own life, and we have a real dilemma.

But it isn't about being right at this point. As is asked here quite often, do you want to be right or recovered?

A WS has used problems in the M before the A as a jumping off point to give justification for their actions. Any real problem is magnified and attempts to break through the fog have been seen as controlling behavior by the BS. Since the WS has convinced themselves that they do not love the BS anymore, it falls to the BS to rebuild that love, often in a total vacuum as far as getting their own ENs met.

But by doing the required things, meeting the ENs of the (F)WS and filling his/her LB$, love once more can begin to creep in and once well established, the desire to participate in recovery shows itself.

Until the FWS begins to feel love for the BS again, they have no desire to recover. They have convinced themselves that there is no love and there never was, since that is the only thing that can justify (to them) what they did. In addition, once they see the damage they have wrought, it is difficult for them to ever perceive a time when they will feel forgiven and the A will no longer be an issue.

Think of it as triage...Save the marriage first and rebuild the love, then work on the trust and other problems.

Concentrate on refilling her LB$ for a while, give up your own "right" to have your ENs met and wait until she is willing to work on the relationship issues before demanding a commitment to that. Be aware that it will take a long time to be recovered. You marriage fell apart over a period of years and it will not be fixed in 6 months. But you might get better participation and commitment from her in that time and thus it will become easier.

In the mean time, you keep working on you and your issues, fixing what needs fixing, but only as it applies to what you have control over. Stop the bleeding first, then set the broken leg.

If you do everything just right, you might save your marriage. You might not be able to do so, but you stand a better chance of doing it by following the plan than if you try to force recovery on an unwilling partner.

Mark