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I am frustrated what to do. when I met H he was on fire for the Lord. now won't fellowship with others. won't bible study or pray. when we argue & I bring up scripture he needs study & cross references. won't listen otherwise. mocks my fellowship.

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Perhaps he is questioning his faith or is re-evaluating his beliefs? If he is able to speak more to why this change has come about that may be a starting point. Differing religious beliefs can be a challenge, especially if one partner begins a process of change after the marriage.
Good luck with this.

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Whoa! If I understand you correctly, you are citing scripture during arguments, and recommending he study it?

You do realize you are using the Bible as a weapon in the argument in order to win? So, now, when you argue, not only are you harming your marriage, you are also using something he loved against him.

Steve Harley has a column about fighting and arguing on this site.

Finally, IMHO, you need to respect your husband’s spiritual journeyNot doing “fellowship” doesn’t make someone less of a Christian, as far as my church teaches. . Remember, even Christ went off by himself and spent time alone. Accepting Christ as your savior is enough. I myself believe that our spiritual journeys can be deeply personal, and are not something our spouses should try to orchestrate.

One thing you can try: Stop getting on him about fellowship or anything else. You do what you are moved to do, and let him follow his path. Hopefully, he’ll stop making fun of your path when you stop trying to force him into following it.


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Alysen you have hit nail on head.

Greengables I am going clarify a few things since I ran out of time originally when i sent this.

I used scripture at the time because with 2 born again christians it tends to come out. as for recommending he studies its like this. he & a few friends believe you CANNOT site scripture unless you have cross references. So he will not listen unless you are prepared. in other words if you cite "jesus wept" as a verse that he showed emotion you better have cross references where else he did plus maybe a few verses on weeping to fully get the picture. he when arguing will state a verse regarding women submitting as "shut up" i love the NT but OT esp psalms & proverbs have good gems. He is a apostle Paul person so rarely goes into OT.I did talk to pastor & he figured maybe my citing scripture puts him on defense. so cool it in other words.

not doing the fellowship is going against let's not forsaking fellowshipping with one another... If he went to a different church or a bible study It would be fine. spending time alone as Christ did is one thing & I am sure Christ reflected on God or even rested after being around crowds. When a person you love & born again leaves his bible with dust on it. I wonder if he is meditating as there are verses on meditating on word day & night. this is a man who used to always have his bible open to the word. I was convicted many times when I saw this.

so if you took out of this I push him into fellowship, this is NOT the case. my H is a person that you never know which way he will go on any day with plans. I learn plan a & plan B (not dr harley's) meaning when an event comes I have to figure it with him & w/o him there. THERE IS NO FORCING everyone who knows him will testify to that.

He has had hurts with believers in past & can't let go. He needs to forgive himself for thoughts he has. he figures since I go to church I will end up in same boat as him or become a hypocrite too. I told him I come to praise & worship the Lord if the Lord puts me in a place to help someone it HIS will. he has cited people that i used to fellowship with & there is no longer a tie.. that's when i say it was for a season.

if i sound angry I am not.. just frustrated & if you want to pray I would appreciate it. I recently had part in Beth Moore study (yes i know about women as preachers but she is a women's speaker not preacher) "when Godly people do ungodly things" right after these things happened I have learned alot for me too. I hope maybe he'll find again the true strength that only comes from the Lord

I know accepting Christ as your savior is enough I would like to hope there will be more desire to just pass in. unless you are in sort of same predicament as the thief on the cross.

Greengables, & Alysen glad I got some response I was wondering if anyone could help out. sorry I am not good on scripture addresses. hope this clears things up a bit.

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That helps a LOT.

I think you're husband is having a crisis of faith. Especially if he thinks you'll either be disillusioned or become a hypocrite. Was there a specific event that tossed him into this sea of turmoil? Did someone in the church do him wrong?

I really wouldn't panic yet. I believe we are repeatedly born again. It's not just once that we have to accept the Greatest Sacrifice. Life happens and we have doubts. We question, and out of our questioning our faith and spirit grows.

Right now, your husband may be called to fellowship in a different way than earlier. It may not be within a church. It be with people who have different beliefs or even those who don't know what they believe.

It could be that your husband is mourning the loss of ideals. Born Agains really have the same failings that the rest of us do. Sometimes they handle temptations better, and sometimes not.

I do yoga. Not as regularly as I should. One of the very best things I learned from yoga was to listen. In the mainstream Christian religion, we spend a LOT of time talking to God, whether out loud or in our heads. Sometimes we read the Bible which is sort of like listening, only our minds are actively filtering it all. I learned to make my mind still and let God speak. You know that Peace which passeth all understanding? (And don't even think of asking for a chapter or verse, because I couldn't begin to tell you.) Well, I've felt that peace in deep relaxation. It's more of the mystical tradition. Think Julian of Norwich but there's no way I want the stigmata.

Anywho... Have patience. This must be very hard for your husband. He may feel abandonned by God or the Church. He may be conflicted beyond belief. And don't worry about him not reading the Bible. If he can cite verses and cross reference them, they won't ever leave him. It's like poetry. King James, my fav, is poetry! Poetry pops up in my head all the time appropo of the situation. I can't stop it. "She walks in beauty like the night" "A mountain minded hoon" "Do I dare, do I dare disturb the universe?" For better or worse Bible verses will rise up in your husband's brain.

Hey, on the bight side, maybe he'll just say "quiet" and not tell you to submit. I bet that was in one of Paul epistles, wasn't it? I never liked him after reading Romans when he said women had to cover their heads because they weren't made in God's likeness. The guy had issues, and that was after Jesus!!!


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i figured clarity would help. my internet access is limited because I have children & think there are better things to do for them besides internet and games like xbox etc... like I said we are the body of christ and we need to function as a body. yes we all have different gift like the body had different parts or function. I think H feels like the big toe that keeps getting hurt by the foot moving wrong. he has hurts from a traditional religion. plus got burned a few times doing things within church & no meaningful friendships. As I stated before my mission is to do God's will & if a friend comes out of it. Blessings. I just keep praying for him. he is good with kids being in church. I have christian friends who have similar plights which helps.

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Maybe reframing this as something more positive than a plight would also help. I agree about the internet and kids. My own mother thinks I'm too protective, but there's all the time in the world for them to play on computers.

I live in an area with a lot of Quakers. The Religious Society of Friends. While I love the ritual of the litany in my church, I'm also intrigued by the way the Quakers practice. They don't hold with ritual. Too supersitious for them. They also don't like heirarchy and have no ordained clergy. So, they take terms being leaders, but everyone is honored. So, in a Quaker Meeting, someone reads a passage from the Bible. Then, people speak as the Spirit moves them. Some meetings are very conservative, others very liberal. It's sort of organized religion for those against it.

Any way, Empa, you have my prayers.


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empacotador,

You said something about how you were convicted about studying the Bible when you saw your husband reading and studying it. I would bet it will work the other way around.

My W and I both started wandering away from the church and from the Lord soon after we got married. Blame it on having kids, working more hours, earning money instead of paying attention to what was really important, what ever...we both checked out.

My W was the first to return and while she had been going out with friends all the time, my first reaction was that she was now spending all of her time with new friends from church. But she did exactly what she needed to do to get me to return as well. She did not tell me I should change, quote scripture to me pointing out how I was wrong or put me on the defensive by pointing out my failure to do what I clearly knew to be right.

She did pray for me and more importantly for herself to be an example to me. It actually took very little time before I was right beside her in church and at Bible study. Today I am an elder of our church, have lead Bible studies, taught and ran the Sunday school for several years, I run the A/V systems for the church and am preaching on the 22nd of this month while our pastor is on vacation.

I'm sure you know the old prayer:

"Lord, help me to accept those things I cannot change; to change the things I can and give me the wisdom to know the difference."

You cannot change your H or make him do what he refuses to do. He likely knows what is right and the Holy Spirit will convict him at every turn.

If you continue to study and read and fellowship with the rest of the body every week, your H will be all the more convicted by your actions. He will either change or he will refuse to do so, but you will be doing what is right and that is all you have the power to control.

One of our women who ran kids programs, taught Sunday school, led small groups and was present almost every time the church met for anything for over 30 years while her husband refused to even acknowledge God. She prayed for him at every public prayer for 20 years. She prayed privately for 10 more. When her husband was baptized about 18 months ago, many in the congregation wept openly because the change was recognizable, immediate and profound.

Today, he is a deacon, heads up our buildings and grounds committee, handles all construction for the church and is an usher and greeter. He even recently taught about tithing at the men's Bible study group that meets on Saturday mornings...

In our congregation are at least 20 men who let their wives go to church alone for at least 20 years. Today, all of them are leaders, teachers and deacons or elders of some type.

Paul tells Timothy to "set an example" for believers. He tells husbands and wives both to set an example in humility. Nowhere does he tell us to "set them straight" when it comes to things spiritual.

Pray for your husband. Lead by example. You do what you have the power to do and leave the convincing up to Him. Trust me, it works better than anything you can say.

You "Do" and let Him "teach and correct."

GG,

Will address the passage you referenced when I have time...Perhaps this evening.


Mark

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Mark, that was great. My practice of Christianity is very different from empa's and I was struggling. You were able to provide insight from the same tradition.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the passage and compare it to what my pastors have told me along my journey. My bet is your take will be a lot different than theirs, so it will provide good food for thought.

I like your sig line only I've got to disagree. If both spouses are being the right people it works. But if just one isn't interested in being the right person, the marriage can fail.


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I am frustrated what to do. when I met H he was on fire for the Lord. now won't fellowship with others. won't bible study or pray. when we argue & I bring up scripture he needs study & cross references. won't listen otherwise. mocks my fellowship.

Don't push him...just go about what God would have you do, as far as YOU going to Church and Bible studies and the like, if he is a Christian then the Holy Spirit WILL convict him.

And I understand feeling 'burned' by others in the church, however, the one thing I really learned through that time is being able to really acknowledge and truly understand that even those within the church are still sinners..they will hurt me, they will disappoint me...I kept thinking because they are "Christians" they should be better than that..but kept forgetting they were just like me...Sinners saved by grace..and just as I hurt others and disappoint others..I will be hurt and disappointed by others..even those in the church...

In other words I put some unreasonable expecations on them, that I shouldn't have..and I began to grow in my own understanding that everyone grows in their walk with Christ at different rates.

Just because your husband was on fire for Christ before, doesn't mean he's matured in his faith..many new born Christians are on fire for Christ when they first come to Christ, but then they need to grow..and growing takes a lot of pain and suffering..as we look both at ourselves for who we really are, and can begin to really see others as God see's them.


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Great post, Mark. So true, too. Actions (and prayers) are more effective than words and manipulations.

Do you record your messages when you preach? Do you know your subject yet?

Is the audio/video available on the church's web site?

If not, there's another project for the AV guy/preacher. If so, it'd be great if you could post a link.

Thanks,
Ace

PS Noticed you've been awol on GQII/Rec. forums for a bit. Hope you're spending family time during the holidays. Btw, I posted to the fishing thread today then stalked you via your history <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />! (Sorry for the mini TJ.)


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Ace,

I will be recorded on that day. My topic will be "Healing" et al. (I wonder where that came from...)

Don't currently have a website for the church, but maybe I can find a way to post a link through my blog. I haven't looked into that possibility yet, but it might be possible. If not, I can always send you and your H a copy or turn it into a WMA file and email it, maybe...

Mark

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GG,

OK, let's see what I can think of regarding the passage of scripture you brought up...

The passage I believe you were referring to is in I Corinthians 11.

The first thing to remember when reading this passage is the context in which it appears. Paul is admonishing those in the church in Corinth concerning the way they conduct their worship service.

Many commentators have suggested that what Paul is referring to in this was a tendency of some of the women of Corinth to be unwilling to submit to the authority of the leadership of the church, which culturally were men.

In Palestine, women wore a head covering, little more than a scarf draped over their head, whenever they appeared in public. This covering was a sign of respect for their husband, who was considered the head of the household. While it was primarily a cultural thing of the middle east, it represented something specific to the people of the region, as it does today in some societies of the area. That was a willful submission to authority and headship. It was a sign of submission rather than one of subservience.

The people of Corinth were gentiles and were much more cosmopolitan than those of the middle east. Women in Corinth often held positions of power in some religious sects and one of the signs of their authority was the taking on an affectation of the men of the day, including they way they dressed and even the cutting of their hair in the manner worn by most men.

Paul's admonishment is for the women to not continue this practice, but to in fact submit to the authority of the the men, including their husbands. He points out that Christ is the head of the church and that God the Father is the head of Christ. Though Christ Himself was equal to God in every respect (see Colossians chapter 1) He was in submission to God the Father by choice. The church leadership, men, were in submission to Christ and women were to be in submission to their husbands and others in authority over them.

Combined with Paul's admonition that a husband and wife should be in submission to each other and that men should love their wives as Christ loves the church (willing to die for her and to protect her at great personal loss) as well as his statement that in Christ there is no difference between male and female for all are equal, we can surmise that his words to the women of Corinth were addressed to a specific group for a specific purpose.

We don't really know the exact problem that Paul was addressing in I Cor 11:2-16 (verse 1 probably belongs as the final summary of the chapter preceding), but those reading his letter within the church at Corinth knew what he was talking about.

In verse 11 we see that Paul says that "neither is the man without the women, neither the woman without the man." So, the woman, was taken from man, man being made first for God's glory. Man now also comes from woman in that she is the one who gives birth to him. Therefore the two sexes are inextricably intertwined and neither could exist without the other. And yet, the woman was made as a helper and companion for man, not the other way around.

The passage does indeed give God's plan of authority in marriage. God the Father is the head of Christ who submits willingly to that authority. The man is in submission, or subjection to Christ and woman is in submission to the man. But when told that he should love his wife as Christ loved the church, it changes the issue from being one of lording it over her into one of serving her and desiring only what is best for her. It is not a case of lower value, but actually one of the woman being more valuable because the man is to be her protector and provider while she in turn shows him honor by being in subjection to him. The head covering then becomes not a symbol of servitude but of submission of will.

Reading the rest of I Corinthians, Paul addresses a whole host of problems in the way the church was allowing the worship service to get out of control. He talks about the way tongues were misused, the way some people came to church for the purpose of eating and drinking (communion) and a bunch of other things that all showed that it was the people he was addressing that had issues.

FWIW, I think that anyone who uses this passage in order to justify placing his wife in a position of servitude and himself as lord is a moron. If the woman is to submit to her husband and he is to submit to Christ, it is only Christ's authority, given to him that is of any value. In himself, man has no authority. God even bestowed the authority over the things of nature upon man, that is not of his own doing either. So Paul addresses orderly worship and really gives the chain of command that comes from God.

In any chain of command, the authority of anyone along that chain is granted to them from above.

Today it is the wearing of a hat that is a sign of authority and being bareheaded is a sign of submission. The principal of authority still applies.

JMO.

Mark

Last edited by Mark1952; 07/09/07 09:46 AM.
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Thanks, Mark. I still don't like it. But, that's from my bias of being a woman, and being one who doesn't not believe in Adam and Eve, although I believe God created the world and us. Now, I try to remember when I read Paul's letters that this is his interpretation, and that he was writing at a time when there were lots of new churches springing up and a lot of gospels around.


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great hope and thoughts needed to hear that


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