My original thread is here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...&PHPSESSID=

I think I may have blown it tonight - big time. Well it was either a very bold move or a stupid move.

Long story short, it's my birthday and XH covered at our business so I could go to my friends' place with my kids for dinner ("surprise" party). DD had arranged this with XH and invited him but he opted to keep the shop open instead of closing it early to join us.

Anyway - my Mom offered me a flight back home as a gift, if I can arrange it. No date - just sometime over the summer. I told XH about it tonight before I left the biz (he came in about 5 to relieve me)... and he informed me that he has vacation plans - to visit his GF out west - the one that moved out on him a month ago, but he's still in contact with.

So in other words, he won't cover for me. Then I asked if he planned any vacation time with our kids since he was planning to travel. Then he springs it on me that he intends to take the kids. I said perhaps this was not the time to talk about this, because I don't think the kids would like the "destination" (the GF's). Also he booked his time without asking me and DD has band camp this summer. I didn't want to get into an argument about it, and I said so, I asked if we could discuss it another time.

So I guess I won't get any relief this summer to take a couple of days off - I can live with that. The issue with the kids is a big one, for another day...

So I dropped the subject, was quiet for a bit, then I came out and asked him if he's planning to move out west with the GF. He said he was thinking about it. I didn't touch on the practical reasons why this would be a bad move, I let that go, but I said the kids would be very upset about this. He said that's why no decision has been made in that regard. (6 weeks ago when she announced she was moving back home she invited him to move with her and he *told* me he wouldn't move away from his kids again - 9 years ago when we moved here, it took us 2 years to sell our home and he saw his kids once a month for those 2 years and it was ****** on all of us.)

So I went quiet again for a few more minutes - again I didn't want to step out of line, love-bust or say the wrong thing. After a bit I said, "I'll be sad if you move." He said, "You'll be sad for me if I move?" (Meaning I was implying it was a bad decision...) I said, "No, *I* will be sad if you move away." He shrugged and made a face. I went quiet again - he could see my reaction, but I didn't cry or fight or anything - control was the name of the game as I thought about what else to say.

I was getting ready to leave, still pondering what, if anything to say. He was working away, I gathered my things, and before I left I went up to him (he was up on a ladder working) and I said, "For what it's worth, that "slip" you had last week..." (he accidentally said "I love you" to me last week - see my other thread)... he made a face and shrugged a bit... I said, "I still love you."

Then I quietly left. I didn't turn around to see his reaction, I didn't wait for a reply. I didn't run, I just quietly walked out and left to go to my birthday dinner (which was FABULOUS, BTW!).

So there. I said it. Nearly 3 years of separation, and divorce, we each have had relationships - I ended mine some months ago - his sort of ended but not really... I hadn't intended to tip my hand so soon after she moved away (she moved 4 weeks ago)... but it just seemed like the right time to just get it out there.

I feel better for having just said it, but I'm scared to death of what might happen next.

He'll either have something to think about - does he want to leave his whole life (again... we left home and family to move here) and start again with this GF, leave his children, his good job that he's worked his whole career to get... OR stay here if nothing more, for his KIDS. And knowing how I feel, he may have one more reason to stay - OR one more reason to get as far away as he can from me.

I'm a mess.

After I left, he phoned me at home to ask me a question about a part I'd ordered that hasn't come in yet - he sounded "normal" as if nothing was different.

Some time later he called me to ask me about a price on something - he had the wholesale price up on the computer but wanted my input on the retail price. Again, he sounded "normal".

Did I screw up? Should I have kept my mouth shut?

I'm proud of myself for not freaking out, not getting into an argument (although there may be one if he wants to take the kids on this 4000+ mile road trip). I'm proud of myself for stopping and thinking before I said anything and not love-busting or panicking.

I just don't know if I should have told him I still love him. I DO still love him. I wish the GF was out of his life completely and the fog would lift.

I'm hardly biased, but he spent the last year living with this woman and her kids, she doesn't drive, doesn't work and he was in the financial dumper for the entire year. Now she's gone he's *just* starting to get his finances in order- he told me he's paid off an old delinquent credit card, for starters. He'd not only be leaving his children, which he said he'd never do, but he'd be leaving a fantastic job, and I doubt they have similar work in a remote town in the middle of nowhere...

Maybe once the conversation started and I started asking questions, he may have been trying to gauge my reaction - I don't know. I'm just glad I didn't make it escalate.

The *good* thing is I said what I have been wanting to say. I may see him briefly tomorrow evening but then Saturday I'm going to a social event 200 miles away and staying away overnight (he'll have the kids). I'll be back Sunday so from now til then I won't be "in his face".

This will give him time to think about what I said - if it's even worth considering to him.

Can anybody help me figure this out? Did I mess up? I'm so flabbergasted by the whole thing...

Any/all comments welcome - I need some help big-time with this one.

JinGA

I don't think you messed up. YOU feel better about saying it, right?

Now, does this mean you should say it again? I wouldn't. You've said your peace, let it be.

Good job on not escalating a fight, however, don't be afraid to take a stand. He needs to realize he can't make plans without consulting with you when it involves the children.

Don't beat yourself up or panic.

Thanks. I do think there may be a gum-fight about the vacation. My kids don't like the GF. They were polite and respectful when she lived with him, but when she came back after 6 weeks away (she left her kids with XH while she was gone, but took the dog he gave her!), and 3 days after she came back she told him she was moving back to her home state, he was devastated, and the kids are very angry with her for hurting their father.

I've got my own opinions - I'm sure you caught what they are from my last post... but I've kept my 2 cents about her out of the conversations with XH, since *technically* his love life is none of my business. When she dropped the bomb, he told me - I may have even been the first person he told, and I was sympathetic and supportive, although I wasn't surprised as I saw it coming.. but that's neither here nor there.

I've told the kids that if they *want* to go, I will not stop them, it's their call. However if they don't want to go, but don't want to hurt their father's feelings about it, I will "pull rank" and take the heat for them. According to our D decree, he has to give me his vacation schedule in writing by May 15. Well if I hadn't brought it up today, for my own wishes for time off, I wouldn't know about it yet. Legally he can't compel me to let him take the kids.

I'm not going to get into that fight unless it's necessary.

And his vacation isn't til July (he didn't know the dates - and he never considered DD's camp schedule, nor did he ask me...) and a lot can happen between now and then, that's what, 6 weeks away? So I'll wait for that - it *IS* a hill I'll die on if I need to but I'm just going to let it ride for now.

No I don't plan on going there again. I said it, now the ball is in his court. I just wonder if saying it would scare him away?

I guess time will tell. He's either going to ponder it, and consider that in the bigger picture, or he's going to rebel against it.

Even if you take *me* out of the equation - if it's over for him as far as I'm concerned... there's a lot of other things he has to consider... starting all over again in another state where he has no family ties, and the only social tie is the GF and her kids. He doesn't like GF father (who is out there). He parented the GF's kids (had to de-louse the daughter multiple times, himself, GF didn't do it). He's complained to me about her kids - described the daughter as "whiny" (I've witnessed that) and the son as "unmanageable" (his words). He'd be leaving a job he's aspired to for his whole career and he was promoted within the last 6 months or so and he's finally where he deserves to be professionally. Most importantly, he'd be leaving his KIDS. Despite the woes we have had, he's a good father, and his kids are everything to him - I just can't see him doing that.

I think if he was really wanting to move, he'd be making arrangements or already be gone.

I'm glad he hasn't made this a snap decision, but it's very unsettling.

Not to mention, we co-own a business and he is needed there. We are in the process of preparing to sell the business - but until that's a done deal, he still has responsibilities and obligations to that, and I'd be screwed 7 ways from Sunday if he walked out on that. He walked out on it before (pressure from the GF - he admitted that), for 6 months, but stepped back in when he was needed, and he's been more involved in the business since she moved.

It's all kind of overwhelming. I *think* in the long run, he'll decide to stay here. I'm just shocked that he's even considering it. Of course I would like to reconcile, but even if that's not an option for *him*, there are enough motivators to keep him here, for many reasons.

Of course at DS's b'day a few weeks ago, he was talking the talk about taking an assignment in Australia for 6 months to a year. His company has an office there. I could see him wanting to take a business trip there (who wouldn't?) but I was stunned when he said he'd consider a long term assignment there.

He could just be talking the talk and trying to see my reaction.

The kids are upset that he'd consider moving - I discussed this with them tonight. Should I encourage the kids to share their feelings with him? I don't try to pull the kids into issues between he and I, but this would affect them the most.

If it's over for him as far as I'm concerned, I'll be devastated again, but I'll be OK, and in the long run, it's *his* loss. I can live with that, although reconciliation is what I'd like to happen - but that is not in my control. At least I've told him how I feel, so he knows now, with no possibility of misunderstanding.

I dunno - I'm overwhelmed.

I just hope he uses his common sense before he does make any kind of decision.

JinGA

The kids should tell him what they think. THey have every right to ask him not to go.

I'm glad you agree. I think so too - since at this point the decision he's considering is NOT about me or he and I, but it has *everything* to do with his relationship with his children.

They will be spending the weekend with him. Tonight before they went to bed, I asked them how they felt about it all. They are both upset that he's considering this.

I told them that this is important to them, and they *should* tell him how they feel.

It's not my intention to use the kids as bargaining chips - they aren't - but their relationship with their father is of utmost importance. They need him.

My own father never lived more than 50 miles away, but he might as well have moved a million miles away because he chose to leave his kids behind, and it still hurts. The [email]B@$[censored][/email] never even called me for my b'day - he did last year (after 7 years of not calling -he had a pang of conscience when his mother died last February...) I've put up such a wall where my own father is concerned, maybe he got that when I spoke with him last - I'm just not interested in being hurt by him anymore.

I'd be devastated if this sort of thing happened between XH and my children. They deserve so much better (and so did I, with my father).

I'm sure XH will be pissed that I told the kids. Oh well - better that they have a heads up and an opportunity to talk to him themselves, than have a sudden surprise if he does decide to toss them aside and move away.

My gut tells me he won't do that. My gut is telling me that since I opened the door to the conversation and asked questions, he may have talked it up a bit to see how I'd react. I did react, and I think I reacted appropriately. He could see the look of surprise and disappointment/sadness on my face, but I didn't blow up, I didn't speak out of line, I've come a long way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Maybe even that will be a surprise to him because I'm sure he expected me to go ape on him - but I didn't.

No love-busters for me tonight <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I've been working at making love bank deposits and I did not want to make any withdrawals.

I did thank him too for letting me have the night off - he said no problem.

And I didn't let it ruin my birthday. I spent the evening with good friends, they gave me some incredible little gifts.

I've been praying to St. Terese for help and guidance through all of this, that if it be God's will for my family to be whole again, to please help us and guide us. Tonight my friend gave me a St. Terese medal as a gift, as well as a little rose pin. (St. Terese acknowledges prayers with roses). I see that as a sign that no matter what happens between XH and me, *I* will be just fine.

I'm hoping that it's God's will that my family will be reunited, and maybe tonight was the push toward that. I don't know. That much is in God's hands now and the ball is in XH's court. At least I told him how I feel and there's no guesswork there for him now. I didn't say I wanted him to come home - just that I still love him. That's enough for him to build on if he so chooses.

It's hard to let go and let God, but I'm doing my best to let His hand guide me. I hope I took the right cue from Him tonight in saying what I said.

JinGA

I'm w/Mojodiva. The kids should express their feelings. No holds barred and you don't hold them back either.

Then let him know that his changes in family loyalty have many questioning his sanity. Since that is the case, having the children around such an unstable person is also questionable.

If he wants to abandon his family that is his choice but it will not be without consequences of his own making.

Time for straight talk. No more ILYs. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

L.

No worries - I'd throw myself in front of a bus for my kids.

I *thought* he would too. But sometimes I wonder. Last year on his road trip he never called them the whole 2 weeks, and never answered his phone when they tried to call him. In fact we were so worried when nobody could reach him we were afraid something had happened to him.

Fortunately for me, his brother was in town the day he was due back, and he was staying with us. He was just as worried as me (so I didn't feel like a total idjit) and when we still couldn't reach him, his brother and I actually went to his apartment and knocked on the door. He was there - he'd got home the day before and went to work that day.

I thought his brother was going to kill him...at least I wasn't alone in my worry - if I'd showed up there alone he'd have rolled his eyes and said I was over-reacting...He was in some *serious* fog at that point and the stuff he did at that point in time had rippling effects that he's still feeling now (financially). I can't believe he's even considering taking a pricey trip like that again - gas is just as expensive (if not more so) than last year, and last year cost him more than just the cost of the trip - the bank charges, bounced checks... OMG it was a mess. I guess he didn't learn after all?

I cannot believe the power that this woman seems to have over him. Fog is very thick if he's considering leaving his kids. I gave him way more credit than that.

This is *not* who he is. Until tonight and until this conversation, he has been more like the man I married than he had been in many years. Kind, considerate, getting his priorities in order (or so I thought...)

I contemplated calling his brother to tell him about this, but I don't know if that's overstepping my bounds. It probably is. I can tell you that his brother would be the first one to smack him upside the head if he knew of this.

I have a feeling his parents wouldn't be impressed either.

But we're divorced, it's not an affair - so it's not like it's within my rights to disrupt his life like that.

It's bugging the ****** out of me though.

My gut still says it won't happen. I've got a bit of faith in him that he'll come to his senses before he throws his children away. Either I'm in some sort of denial (possible), or he was just testing me to see how I'd react. If that was a test, I think I passed. I just don't like head games.

And if he does, then he was *never* the man I thought he was, and I need to wake up and get on with life.

Things appeared to be going so well. He was making love deposits without even seeming to be aware of it. I was consciously trying to make love deposits, and I thought I was succeeding.

I knew she was still in contact with him... but I figured it would burn out. And it likely still will at some point, I just hope he doesn't burn all his bridges where they matter before that happens.

His vacation is still at least 6 weeks away. A lot can happen in that time, so I'm just going to let things be for now. I won't change how I've been behaving. I won't bring up the vacation again but I will be firm if/when he does. I'll keep the lines of communication open with my kids, and encourage them to tell them how they feel, or if they can't talk about it, to write their father a letter (they have done this before and it works quite well).

Strangely, normally I'm in panic mode - but I'm at peace with it even though I'm distressed about it all - if that makes any sense at all. Talking it through here helps immensely, and I'm clinging tightly to my faith right now - that if it's God's will it will happen - either way. God will see us through this to where we need to be.

I do appreciate the kind support here - it's making a huge difference for me.

JinGA

Hi JinGA,

I'm glad you told him. Being honest about your feelings for him is the right thing to do. Years later he will remember that you were too good to be true and he blew it big time. You saw the good in him, but he didn't see it in you because he was blinded by fog. It doesn't hurt anything to tell him you love him, he used to be your husband, and it's your right to tell him that, just like it's his right to say it too, and he did say it. It's not anything wrong.

You never know how these things will turn out. She moved away and that's made him have to make a decision. What will he do? July is a long time away. Why is he taking so long to decide? That must be eating her alive.

You were honest with him, you were up front and told him. He can do whatever he thinks best with that. You can too. If he replies in some manner, you can go anywhere from "lite" love to "head over heals" in love. I'd go slow though. He has had time to think about things, going slow is fine.

Don't worry about it. Years later you'll know you did right because you told him the truth. The truth is fine.

And if you ask the people out here on MB, they'll tell you they love you. I'm sure of it. We're all in this together, trying to get back what was lost, that may or may not come back. Good luck.

God bless,
CS

Thanks, CS.

I never thought about how *she* must be feeling other than that it was a crappy thing for her to live off him, with her 2 kids for the last year, use him as a free babysitter for 6 weeks (7 if you count that she went home for a family emergency in December and was gone for Christmas). And then turn around 3 days after she came back and announce she was moving back. If I were in his shoes I'd have put her stuff at the curb right then and there, but no, they made nice for 2 more weeks til she actually did go. She left his place a mess (my kids saw the same mess 10 days later when they stayed at their dad's for the weekend)...where's ANY respect in that?

If she loved him truly, she'd have stayed here and made a home and family here. If she loved him truly, she wouldn't even consider asking him to choose between herself and his own children. That shouldn't even be a "choice". It isn't in my book.

I've had a couple of days to contemplate the whole thing - I can see him taking the trip in July (and I will not allow the kids to go - and legally he can't compel me to let them go), and then we'll see. I've butted heads with him before about allowing the children to go on long road trips - he has taken them back home to our families on road trips before, with my blessing, but I won't allow this one - I didn't last year and I won't this year. If he's mad, so be it - he'll get over it, he has before, and I apologize to no one for protecting my children.

I can't see him leaving his kids to move away, I can't see him leaving this job (unless he can transfer - there is an office in her home state but it's over 4 hours from her hometown and at least an hour and a half from where she has other family - assuming she moved back because she missed her friends and family). The cost of living in her state is much higher than ours... if he seriously sits down and weighs out ALL of the pros and cons of such a move, he'd see that it's an illogical decision. He was in financial ruin for most of the last year, and is just starting to get his act together now that he's not feeding 3 more people. He has more than enough to get by on his own, but lived beyond his means with her and her kids. He no longer has a revolving door of her children's friends coming and going in his small apartment. His brother cleaned up the leftover stuff and mess (I think he said that anything on the floor was in the dumpster...),this past week, which she left behind. If he intended to move there, he'd have packed up her things and brought them with him when he goes in July or if/when he moves... but no, he let it all be tossed out. That in itself speaks that maybe in the back of his mind he may not even take the vacation, or he'd have carefully packed up her things in anticipation of bringing them there (or in anticipation of her return here!).

If he does take too long to "decide", maybe she'll move on. Given what little I know of her, she seems to have a long trail of failed relationships, at least 2 of which produced children.

Fortunately, XH had a vasectomy a year or so before we parted (his idea, I'd long since given up on that notion and actually asked him *not* to when he did do it - I didn't think the M would last at that point and I didn't want to be to blame if he wanted more kids with someone else...) so at least an OC by him is not a possibility.

Yes, I was honest. It's out there and now he knows for sure how I feel. I've seen him a couple of times, briefly since that evening, just saw him this morning in fact. He's not behaving any differently towards me - that's a good thing. I half expected things to be strained or awkward if he didn't know how to deal with the information I gave him, but thankfully all is fine. We're friendly, we haven't had an opportunity to just talk about anything (small talk etc.) but that's OK.

I met him at the shop this morning so he could use my truck for a delivery for the shop. On my way out he told me to have fun (I'm going out of town for the day to a party and I'll be back tomorrow - staying out of town in a hotel for the night - ALONE! *g*). I told him thanks, and I will <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have to stop back at the shop once more before I head out because he left something in the truck... and then I'll be off to distract my busy mind for a day.

One thing I've noticed about XH - he's very good at mixed signals and perhaps I'm not the only one receiving them. Perhaps he's telling her he'll visit and he might move there, but the proof will be in whether he actually *does* it or not. I'd hedge a bet that he makes the trip in July for the vacation, but clearly he's not planning on moving (IF he plans to move) til after July, and if he has to leave his job he would have to start job hunting in that area - he has no savings to carry him til he found a job if he started looking after he got there, he's got no money to finance a move - he doesn't have a lot of stuff but everybody has stuff...

I don't know how much of the practical stuff he's thought about - I've always been the practical one and the planner...heck even something as simple as a credit check on him at this point might put the kibosh on him where a new job or new apartment is concerned. When we parted he had excellent credit - because I kept it that way. Then he went all irresponsible without me there to make sure his bills were paid and so forth. He moved to a larger apartment in the same complex last year but I doubt they did a credit check then, as he was an existing tenant, but they did do one when he rented the first place. At that point his credit was still excellent. Same cannot be said now. (Mine's still excellent - I'm a smart cookie!)

We'll see what happens. I'm a firm believer in that everything happens for a reason. If he moves out there, I guess it's meant to happen. I just don't see it happening for a multitude of reasons, only a very few of which are emotional, many are just simply logistical. Now that I've let my own head clear a bit, *I* can see the impediments, but I don't know if he'll realize that until he tries to make plans <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> His past actions (and inactions) may come back to bite him in the pants.

Somehow though I don't think it will even get to the actual planning part. His kids are extremely important to him and he knows what it's like to be apart from them, and he has made it clear from the start that he never wants to be too far from them again - hence he lives about a mile away from us, even though he works about 20 or more miles away from here. He could have picked living quarters closer to his job but he didn't. It's convenient for all of us, for the kids, for the business...

Time will tell, and I've got time. And you're right - whatever happens between us - IF it's meant to happen between us, will happen slowly. I don't want to rush. I don't want it to bite me in the rear down the road if things get rough and he says that I hurried him into something. Nope - not this time. Mistakes are just mistakes if we repeat them - they are lessons if we learn from them.

I'm strangely and somewhat uneasily, at peace with the whole thing. It's out of my hands and I've come to a point of acceptance. I'm ready to move forward if that's what he wants, and I'm ready to accept his decision if he does decide to move out there. I'd probably speak out and voice my opinion at that point, but I won't until that time.

We'll see what the next 6 weeks brings - and then even if he does visit, nothing's written in stone yet after that.

JinGA

This morning I'm in a hotel room, preparing to return home. Had a *blast* yesterday at a "pig-pickin" there were 15-20 of us there and we had a great time. The party ended up with an impressive fireworks display.

Heading home soon... I'll go in to work when I get there, XH is covering for me (He normally works weekends anyway - just he'll be on his own like he was yesterday, til I get there).

He phoned about 9 times yesterday! 7 of those times were questions about customer stuff - pricing questions etc. Once about 5:30 or so he phoned *just* to tell me that our hockey team won and is going to the Stanley Cup final!! I really appreciated that because I missed watching the game since I was out. I thanked him very much for letting me know because the suspense was killing me. I was half tempted to call him to ask (he must have got the score online since he was working too...)... but I didn't but I was pleasantly surprised that he was considerate enough to call me to let me know (score a Love Bank deposit for him!).

He called me again at closing to ask if he was supposed to pick up DS at our friends' - he was and the day before I'd sent him a detailed email with the kids' schedules. Both kids were staying at XH last night but DD was at a party, and same friend was picking her and her own DD up and delivering her to XH's place... so I confirmed all that.

Once that was done he had no more "excuses" to call, so he didn't <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

At least after this event on Thursday (me confessing my feelings) he's not pulling back from me. I expected him to, particularly if he didn't feel the same way. I expected it to be quiet, awkward, something - but instead it's pretty much the same as it was and he's still doing little things that count as Love Bank deposits as far as I'm concerned. Interesting...

Thoughts?

JinGA

Well interesting development of sorts today. My friend has a couple of twin beds she's looking to get rid of. She offered them to XH for my kids when they stay there. Previously they were sleeping on a futon and a pull-out couch (which somebody broke recently). When GF lived there with her kids, one slept on the futon and one had one of those inflatable beds (yep, her kids never had *real* beds the whole year or so they were there!)

XH jumped at the chance to put REAL beds in for our kids. In fact he's probably moving them into his apartment right now.

Now, if he was *really* thinking of moving away, would he not have declined this extra stuff? Granted, they are free... but that would still be 2 more big pieces of furniture he'd have to dispose of OR move... (unless he plans to take them to have for GF kids...)... still the expense of moving them would probably be more than buying some used ones at that end if her kids don't already have beds - I have no idea where she's living now except that she's back in her hometown.

Only had a bit of contact with XH this afternoon, he left shortly after I got back, to see to a client issue at their home, when he came back he was on the phone and stood outside talking for a while. When he came in he made a point to tell me it was his mother (her b'day was yesterday - I sent an e-card) - said every time he tried to reach her yesterday there was no answer.

I didn't ask him who he was on the phone with - he volunteered the info.

I'm trying not to read too much into anything these days - it's just confusing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> However I think this is somewhat significant.

At least my kids will have a comfy place to sleep now when they are at their father's. The "overcrowding" issue has already been dealt with... now they can keep some of their things there safely too, nobody will be going through their things or taking them.

Even if an R does happen (and I'm still hopeful that at some point it might), it would be a slow process, so if he's showing some signs of some sort of permanence where he is now, I'm OK with that.

Could use some feedback...please <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

So is he buying new bedding as well?

L.

My friend gave him some, and he had one set. She told him about some stuff she saw at Goodwill when she was up there shopping.

She just called me to tell me about helping move the beds in - her H and my XH play guitar - they moved the beds, set up the room for our kids, and the men played guitar for a while.

Wow - he's socializing with my friends! I met these friends through our daughters who are best friends, and they live in the subdivision next to mine, and XH lives about a mile from here.

My friend senses that rather than planning to 'move', he's trying to make the place a bit more homey for our kids.

There was not a trace of the GF's things, but her kids left a lot behind - much of which was shoved in boxes into a closet.

And the place was "bachelor" messy... typical for XH, he's not the poster boy for tidiness, although he keeps himself clean and well-groomed, his car and apartment are not quite the same.

The kids just got home a while ago - apparently he asked them if I had mentioned "a vacation" to them - they said yes. Neither one wants to commit either way to whether they want to go or not... I've asked them to be honest with me - DS would like the road trip but not the "destination" although he'd like to see the GF DS, but he's not too excited about the rest. DD gave her father a "neutral" answer - and she's doing the same with me.

I've told them that I'm siding towards NO unless they tell me they really want to go. I can't figure it out - either they want to go and don't want to hurt my feelings, or they don't and they don't want to hurt his feelings. Sucky position to be in - but I've often told them that I won't be hurt by their honesty - I just need to know how they are feeling towards this or a given subject... oy.

JinGA

JinGa,

He's testing the waters with you. He was probably just thinking out loud when he said what he said.

I've been/am in this situation in the sense that I am tempted sometimes to move away because it hurts so much to be here. I don't leave because the guilt over my kids would kill me. I'd rather stay and fight for them and be there for them if they need me. But moving away crosses my mind from time to time because I'm not happy here.

Granted, I don't know what he's unhappy about. It could be that he's lonely.

He could just be a dunce that doesn't see what's right in front of him! It blows my mind that people can walk away from such great blessings.

I hope he opens his eyes and really chews on what you said. I don't think you blew anything and it was time to throw down the gauntlet. He may be biding his time to fully get over the GF to start something with you.

That's how I feel about a good friend of mine. I want to be completely over the ex before anything were to happen with her. I'm not really over the situation with the ex. Mainly because I have a crappy visitation schedule, but that's another issue. I'll post about it on my thread and would appreciate your input. For now, keep the faith. It's a slow process but I hope God opens his eyes and you will have the return of the prodigal son.

I think you're right. I brought it up, he didn't and he probably just shot that out to see what I'd say. Hopefully if it was a "test", I passed it. I think the relationship is dying a slow, painful death. I'm just going to sit it out until it's done. I won't bring it up again unless he does, and I've already got a plan as to what I'm going to say about the vacation. He may just assume I won't let the kids go and let it be - then he's free to do what he pleases.


I know it's hard to be near the one you love when they don't return that feeling. I've struggled with that at times too, and I think it would be easier if he was 2000 miles away. Truth is, it might be if I didn't have to see him, but that feeling is within ME and his whereabouts don't matter. I have to deal with that *myself* and so do you. And your kids would not benefit with your absence, it would only hurt them. Happiness comes from within, wherever you are - so I'd work on *that* if I were you and worry less about geography <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Exactly. He's got lots to be happy about, if he lets himself. Like I said - it's all here, he just doesn't want to see it or go and look for something better right here. Lonely I can understand - but again that's his own doing. There are plenty of friends here for him, co-workers, people he used to work with that he's socialized with, his kids... his *life* is here. I just think he's taken a long break from living it. When he was wrapped up with her he lost touch with people, became isolated... he needs to get back out there and be social. He wasn't the most outgoing guy but he wasn't half bad in social situations. He's got good manners, he's sophisticated, he can hold his own in a crowd and he likes playing guitar at social gatherings etc.

In fact yesterday he jammed for a while with my friend's husband. Perhaps that whet his appetite a bit for more social activities. He *can* be happy here again if he chooses to be. Question is, will he choose to be? I doubt he'll be any happier if he moves. He wasn't happy when she was here - or I wouldn't have heard about him having to do this and that for her kids, what the kids' problems are/were, etc. He complained to me about that kind of stuff... does he think all those issues will magically disappear? I think not.

And if it doesn't work out, then what? Where will he go and what will he do? Always need a back-up plan, right? I'd hate to see him start all over again to have to start all over yet again... but these are just my thoughts, and it's not my place to bring any of this up, at least not at this point.

If it comes down to a move, I WILL voice my opinion as it concerns the children, and my concerns for his well-being. What he may choose to do with that information is up to him, but that much is not about "me" or my feelings or whatever - it's about the kids and his relationship with them.

Somehow I still doubt very much that it will come down to any of that.


He's not a stupid man, but he's done some stupid things. I'm hoping that soon he does have an "Aha!" moment and realizes all that he'd be throwing away (again...) if he did make such a move. I seriously doubt it will happen - but you never know. Stranger things have happened...


I hope so too, but time will tell. He's been quite relaxed and normal since I confessed my feelings. I expected if they were unwelcome, he'd either avoid me or be weird around me, but he's not. He's not "taking advantage" either. I guess he's just OK with it for now, and that's a good thing. I don't know if he's thought that far ahead about when it's over for good with the GF... in his mind at least what he's professing to us (kids and me) is that their relationship is still alive and well. Hmmm, doesn't look too good, but OK...


I wouldn't say he's unhappy here. Lonely, perhaps, yes, but that's by his own choosing. He's got a great job that he loves, he's been promoted and he's finally aspired to what he wanted to be when he started taking night courses 15+ years ago. He's got his kids, and he could have more if he wanted it, either with me, or I'm sure he could find somebody locally who is his equal. He picked up the first woman that gave him a second glance, and that's where he's stuck (and I did the same - but I finally ended it when I woke up!).

Congratulations on recognizing that you aren't ready to move on, that shows maturity that I lacked. Some of us have to learn the hard way *g*.

JinGA

Well I did not see XH yesterday (shop is closed) and I didn't hear from him (not unusual) and I didn't have any reason to contact him (usually by email so I don't interrupt his work).

It's hard to be in the "hurry up and wait" stage, but I guess that's just about where I am.

Any advice? I'm trying to busy myself - I *have* been spending a lot of time reading threads here - I need to get busy with other things too so I'm not spending a disproportionate amount of time stewing on it all, but I do find reading others' experiences to be very helpful, particularly if their situations are even remotely similar to my own.

My immediate "plan" is to just keep doing what I've been doing. Put my best foot forward, Plan A as much as I can, but carry on with my life at the same time. I'm not sitting here waiting for the phone to ring or an email from him - that isn't happening. I was pleasantly surprised on Saturday when he called just to tell me about the hockey game - when I expressed my appreciation for that the next day, he made a point to tell me that he called his brother first, and he "called everybody"... don't know who "everybody" is, his family most likely. No matter - he did think to call me, and I appreciated it. He always said I never appreciated him (I disagree, but I have listened to and heard that complaint and I'm trying harder to fill that EN), so I make a point to thank him for simple kindnesses every chance I can. No big over-the-top fuss, but I make sure to make special mention and thanks. Typically he just downplays it ... he used to do that too. That's OK, I'm still showing appreciation and I do think he notices, he just may not have figured out the art of graciously accepting praise or thanks yet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

His brother will be here again likely over the weekend. It's a long weekend too, so he will be here Monday, as he won't be able to deliver on a holiday. Not sure whether the brother is staying with me or with XH - doesn't matter much - like I said, we "share custody" *g*.

Speaking of brothers, XH's oldest brother (he's got 5 older brothers!) called my house last night, looking for XH. He wasn't sure "which number" to call (my home or XH's cell)...clearly his brother must not call him often or he'd know which number! I don't think I've spoken with this brother since before the separation. I saw the name on the caller ID, so I knew who it was when I answered, and he seemed surprised to have reached me. I was cheerful, asked how his DD is (he never married but at age 40 had a DD with a woman he seems to barely stand now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> His DD is a few months younger than our DS) I made a little bit of small talk to try to put him at ease, because clearly he was uncomfortable with the fact that he'd reached me by mistake, so I kept it short, cheerful and happily gave him XH's correct phone number. Strange. Sad to think that he's so uncomfortable just talking to me - we were never super close, but he had my back once when another of the brothers was ugly to me, many many years ago. I love all of the family, even the ones that have issues <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I didn't divorce the family... but that's another post I guess!

Anyway, I'm wondering if I should extend yet another dinner invite (out at a restaurant) to XH when his brother is here again? I've invited him twice when the brother has been here, both times we dropped off take-out on our way back to my place. Last time I invited him, he thought about it first before he declined, it was a week night and he said he needed to get to bed at a decent hour as he'd been sleeping in and late for work - legitimate reason, but he still had to wait up for us to drop off the take-out...

Or should I not invite him? Since he's turned me down 3 times, should I back off and let him wonder *why* I didn't invite him? Or would that be a love-buster? Fine line there - I don't want to be a pest, but at the same time I don't really relish being turned down time after time. I'm thinking I'll invite him anyway, and if he turns me down, so be it. If so, should I accommodate the take-out request if it comes up a third time?

I could email him today to see if his other brother reached him - but that's kind of lame and transparent... perhaps not... thoughts?

I want to push forward a bit, but I don't want to "push"... pushing only makes him push back. It's hard to let him know that I'm still interested, but since he's still being pulled in the other direction (the GF), perhaps now is not a good time? Or is it?

I won't be blurting out my feelings again - did that and it's out there. I'm trying to find appropriate ways to show him I'm serious without scaring him away or pushing him away or other counterproductive behavior.

It's hard to figure out what the "right" things to do are... I could use some help in that regard.

A male friend of mine with whom I talked a bit about things, told me that instead of asking him if he "would like" to join us for dinner, that I should tell him "I want you to come" to dinner. He said that asking him may come across as feeling obligated to be polite or whatever, but telling him what I want would send a clearer message. Is that arguing semantics too much, or does anybody think it would make a difference? I thought saying "I want" would be too forceful... asking him if he'd like to come gave him an out.

What say you?

JinGA

I agree with your brother - that telling him you would like for him to come is much clearer (and more aggressive) than simply asking him. A third possibility is to not invite him at all and see if he chews on it some. I don't know which is the best answer. Would the latter be considered a 180?

You have now laid your cards on the table. You told him how you feel and anything else might be construed as pushing it. This might be the point when you leave the ball in his court. You might want to think about how many times you run back over there, pick it up, run back to your side and then lob another serve. He needs to be the one to decide if he wants to hit it back. Or not.

I apologize for my weakness for analogies. I can't seem to talk about any of this stuff without them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

That's ok I thrive on analogies. It's hard to say whether a bit more assertive approach (without being overtly aggressive about it) will serve to reinforce what I've told him, or make him rebel.

I will say this - the first 2 times I invited him, the first time he just said, "No, I'm good." Then his brother left to go to my place to see the kids and do his laundry. XH left (the shop - this is where it all took place) to go home, and a few minutes later he called me to ask if "I" was buying (read: using the business' barter funds with this establishment) and I said I was (he was broke at the time!), and so I asked him again if he wanted to join us, and he said no, but would we drop off some take-out? We did.

The second time I asked, it was just us, the kids and me and there was going to be live music at the same restaurant (it's understood that he doesn't have to pay - the business has a substantial credit with said restaurant). He declined then too. Too bad, he'd have loved the entertainment and it was a Saturday night (no need to be up early)... the kids and I went and had a blast.

The third time was a week ago. This time was different in that instead of giving me a flat refusal without even considering it, he waffled on it for a bit, and then came up with the reason that he'd been oversleeping (I know this was true because I'd seen him stop at the convenience store in front of our business at 10:00 AM the day before - he starts work at 8:00 AM - oops!). Like I said the excuse was legit, although he had to wait up for the take-out. On the other hand he was at his home, relaxing (presumably).

The other variable might have been if he was expecting a call or to make a call to the GF, she might have asked questions if he was in a noisy location when she called him, or if he missed calling her on time... I hadn't really thought about that. But if he was "busted" out socializing, especially with me/his brother/his family that might have caused a problem with the GF... (hmmmm....) I do know that when he was out with us as a family for DS b'day, she called him twice and text messaged him once during our outing. Perhaps he's still having to be accountable for every minute of his day - which might also explain why he doesn't stick around the business for very long each night. When she was still here, and circumstances necessitated his return to the business, he ONLY came in on weekends, not weeknights.

Of course my paranoid mind could just be working overtime too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But that *would* make sense.

The GF who moved away still has a hold on him. All I'm attempting at this point is to make myself look like a better choice than living life on hold for the GF. Something tells me she's not living her life on hold - but that's how these things go sometimes.

I think/hope that eventually he's going to tire of living like a hermit, holding on to something that no longer exists as he knew it. She chose to move away. She wants him to follow, but he's more than likely struggling with that, even though all the logic points to his staying here (see my original post in this thread).

I guess I am wanting to watch for subtle clues that he's letting go of that, and hope he gravitates back to us.

JinGA

So you have asked him three times and each time he has turned you down, but with waning degrees of resistance. Does that sound right?

I don't know what to make of it. It could be a sign of growing interest in spending time with you and the rest of the family. Or it could be sign that he's getting worn down and running out of excuses to say no.

I'm still inclined to leave the ball in his court, if no other reason that it might serve you well to get a little more distance between you and any hope or expectations you might have right now. Possibly mention that you guys are again going to eat with his brother and, like always, he has an open invitation to join you guys. That leaves the door wide open from now into the indefinite future. He might say no again, but maybe the next time you "happen to mention going out", he might feel more comfortable asking, "Is that open invitation still good?".

The only response I would seek now is that he actually heard you. From your description, he sounds frustratingly aloof and distracted, so some kind of acknowledgment might be necessary. Once you receive said acknowledgment, perhaps it would be wise to simply walk away and mention it no more. Give him the freedom to chew, stew, and think.

Yes. Exactly.


Well 3 invites in a month, 2 of which when his brother was here (so it's not a "date" and the kids were involved) is hardly pushing him to the point of wearing him down... and there was no pressure. When he declined, I let it be. I wasn't disappointed etc. The first time he declined I asked, "Are you sure?" but I didn't do that again.

If he's getting worn down it could be that living life as a hermit for the GF that abandoned him but won't let him go completely, is wearing thin. But then I'm hardly unbiased. I think he's crazy to keep carrying the torch for someone who freeloaded off him for a year, with her kids, used him up and threw him away. Regardless of what "benefit" he received from that relationship, that was the bottom line. She tired of living here, and moved back home. He told me the reason she gave for moving back was "not because of him" but because she didn't like living in our state. Whatever. Home is where you make it - she wasn't "at home" so what's the point of hanging on from 2000 miles away unless she thinks she can gain something from it? But I digress...


Interesting. Not sure if he'd actually be that assertive himself about it, but I may give that a try.


He's had plenty to chew, stew and think about lately. God only knows if he's been doing that at all, or if he's dismissed it all, because of the fog he still seems to be caught up in.

My prayer is that the fog starts to lift, and he finally sees clearly what is before him. At *that* point I think I will learn whether a reconciliation is still possible for him or not. For now, I don't even think he realizes what's here for him.

Patience... I know, patience... God keeps trying to teach me patience but I'm not the best student at times.

I just don't want to screw things up any further in the interim <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JinGA