JinGA,

I'm all about the straight forward approach. Men think that way. Women often spend countless time "hinting" hoping we see it and we are blind to it. No more hinting. Time to lay it all out.

How?

Well, very calmly tell him one night when you're alone, "Ex, you have a home here. You have a family and children that love you. I meant what I said before. I think you should completely let go of this woman and join me in rebuilding our family again. If you'd rather be with her, then tell me and I won't bring this up again. You and I have both changed a lot since our D and I feel we could be very happy if we tried again."

Done. Very clear. No hints.

What do you have to lose? Trust me, he's hinting a ton himself and is probably afraid because he doesn't see a clear path.

I'm saying this to you because an ex of mine wanted me to choose her. She hinted and hinted, but I wasn't catching on. I didn't wish to be pushy and thought I had been clear on how I felt and that she would let me know. She would have responded if I had given her a completely clear signal vs a hint.

We both ended up marrying adulterers as a result and missed out on a great opportunity.

That's my story. Don't hint anymore. You've done a great job of letting him feel warmth. He feels it but is afraid. He has a known thing in his hand with a great unknown facing him and he's afraid of going with the unknown even though he knows it may be better.

That's my suggestion.

Hmmmm... I wonder if the GF has another fish on the hook in her home state. I kind of get that feeling, but I don't know why.

Anyway, to offer a response to your last question... It would be my guess that some of that aggressive courting of you (or any other woman) has probably changed or waned quite a bit. Recall the old saying, "Once bitten, twice shy.". Not that YOU ever bit HIM, but you did say before that he seemed to express some understanding of how destructive his behavior to you was and now he's getting a little taste of his own medicine. The feelings of guilt, loss, and remorse have certainly had some kind of impact on his psychie. At least I would think they would...

In the book "Healing the Shame that Binds Us", Bradshaw says that healthy shame helps us to establish our boundaries - our moral framework. Toxic shame prevents us from achieving good and productive things. Your XH may be dealing with quite a bit of toxic shame right now that would prevent him from pursuing something with you.

Now if that is an element, it is likely but ONE element. I'm just wondering if there is a specific way to express that you are forgiving - HAVE forgiven, and are open to new possibilities. I guess that all goes to him understanding and believing that you are a safe place. Establishing a real friendship, not just a friendly association but an actual friendship, would go a long way to that I think. Consider treating him just as you would a friend. Not a lover or a husband, but as someone whose time you would merely like to enjoy, and for whom you'd like to available to for various favors and such.

Alrighty then...


I'm starting to feel that way too - I thought saying, "I still love you" was a big ole neon sign, but perhaps it wasn't.


Boy oh boy, do I *want* to do that. It's killing me that I haven't and like I said before, I just haven't felt "safe" to do that yet. MY problem, that it is... the worst that can happen is he's going to say, "Sorry not interested" and that's that, I pick up the pieces and life carries on as it has been - because I'm not really losing anything because I don't "have" him now as it is. I just can't seem to convince myself that this is the only way to go because *I* am still stupid and intimidated by this OW who now resides 2000 miles away. That's dumb. My logical side can see that and understand it. My logical side tells me he's got kids and a house and a wife he can have BACK if he wants it and is willing to make things right. We can have the good life that we once had, and more. We can be better off emotionally, be intact as a family, share our home again, share our resources, and we'd be in a better economic place again (although the material reasons aren't primary reasons, the are reasons nonetheless)... so why *wouldn't* he want all that again?

If he chose her, he'd have to uproot, relocate, lose his kids, change jobs (or at least workplaces even if he could stay with the company), his home, his social ties, *everything*.

It's a no-brainer.

The big "IF* is that if he doesn't love me anymore, if he doesn't love his kids enough to stay here for them (if for no other reason), then it's all been an illusion to me and I've fallen for it again. If he doesn't love me, the trappings that go along with it are worthless to him.

I'm afraid to find out the truth if it's not the answer that I'm wanting to hear.

That's all about me, and not about him. I own that and I understand it, and one way or another *I* need to get a grip and either stick my neck out and take that chance, or keep playing this game until I lose. I don't want to lose.

Time for some more positive self-talk... I'll work on that.


The big irony here is I'm not usually one to beat around the bush, and I rarely mince words. Like I said, telling him I still love him and leaving him to ponder that (if he did, or is) seemed fairly clear to me. But you're right - women and men are wired to think differently and perhaps I should have spelled it out more specifically. At that moment it was spontaneous, and while I chose words carefully, I didn't want to just blurt it all out at once that I wanted him home with us, that we had a future together... and all that other high pressure stuff.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and I don't expect that if I ask him on one date and he accepts, that he'll just move back in and we'll be happy ever after. No - it's got to start slowly - let's date, let's spend time together and get to know each other more intimately (emotionally) FIRST and then see if it's still there, and proceed from there.

I didn't want to overwhelm him with all that out of the blue.


Really? You think he's hinting intentionally? I've long since "complained" about the mixed signals. Sometimes I think he wants to say something but is afraid, other times I think I'm imagining things, or reading too much into things, and if I open my mouth I'll just embarrass both of us.

If we're both doing that we could dance around it all forever couldn't we?


This is what I don't want to happen - so why am I so damned scared? We both moved on, we both ended up in less than ideal relationships - now we're both available, so where's the harm in trying? (I'm asking myself this more than anybody...)


I'm sorry <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Any hope left at all? Hey - might be worth a try, eh? IF you're both available...


Thanks for sharing your experience, because it gives me something to think about outside my own little bubble. I don't want to miss the chance to make things right, I don't want to live with regret. I am just so afraid to mess things up - taking it that next step will either be the best bold move I'll ever make, OR it may serve to ruin the good relationship we've somehow managed to preserve through all the hurt and ugliness. I'll never know if I don't try, I guess, and nor will he. If we both sit and wait in case we get hurt, we'll never know, will we?

JinGA

I've wondered that from day 1. She's got lots of networking web pages out there (myspace etc.) and most of her "friends" are men. She still lists her location as here (not her home state) and status as "in a relationship" there on myspace - and I do look at both their pages from time to time - she's not posting on her page very much at all anymore (perhaps she doesn't have regular internet access wherever she is now?). His page still lists him as "in a relationship" and he mentions her as his "fiancee" (there was never a ring or a date). I figured if he'd put that behind him, he'd have updated his profile... but he hasn't.

As to her - well she doesn't work, and I don't know if she gets any "income" besides $260/month child support she gets from one child's father. (XH told me this). The other child's father sends money periodically to his child, which the child spends on himself. Unless she's got somebody supporting her where she is now (family? friends?) or unless she went out and got a job, I don't know how she's living, or where she's living or whom she's living with. Something tells me if there wasn't another ripe one on the vine when she left, she's probably looking for one.


When we met, I initiated dating. I asked HIM out. He asked me out the second date... but I started things. He moved in with me "by osmosis" and we lived together for 3 1/2 years before we married. After a year together, he suprised me with an engagement ring, but long after that I pressed him for a wedding date. I wanted to be married to him but I finally said, either make an honest woman out of me, or cut me loose so to speak. So I "pushed" for the wedding if you call that pushing after 3 1/2 years together. DD came along 2+ years after we wed - so the "math" is right... nobody can say I forced him, but I was the initiator. I remember seeing his profile on dating sites afte we split up (almost a year after we separated - he didn't rush into things), but his profile said that he "married too young and for the wrong reasons". That stung. I think that was bullcrap and typical of what someone in a WS frame of mind would say... but seeing it in print was devastating. To my knowledge he doesn't have a profile up on dating sites anymore - he took them down again when he got serious with the GF. He was 23, I was 21 (almost 22) when we married, and after 3 1/2 years together, I hardly think he was duped, pushed or rushed....

Still, as I ramble - I was always the initiator, in most avenues of our relationship. Nowadays I'm seeing him taking care of his own self better than he ever did, particularly since she left. I managed the finances, paid the bills, made plans and arrangements - well he's having to do that for himself now, and when she was here it was a shambles, but he had to step up to the plate to take care of her kids and her, because God knows she wasn't doing it, and now he's on his own he's doing a better job of taking care of his own stuff, and that's attractive to me too.

I just don't know if he'd take initiative to make a move with me. I've tried to let him know that I'm safe, that I still have those feelings - and leaving it up to him, but if he still is who he is, he may be afraid to try, afraid to fail, afraid that I may fail him... perhaps we're both really afraid.

Or perhaps I've misinterpreted every little thing to mean something more than it is, and he just wants a civil, friendly relationship with his ex... because that's all I've been able to see for certain to this point.


Interesting... that is to say that he may feel so much shame for things that happened between us that he owns, and that he chose not to repair when he had the chance, and that he was taken advantage of by the GF, that he doesn't feel like he can try again with me? Perhaps feeling that he doesn't deserve it or something to that effect?

If only he'd talk to me about it - we could talk about it.

When I had my conversation with him last week (where I told him how he felt), when I did bring up sensitive issues such as how the kids would feel if he moved, he made a face and shrugged. Not like an "I don't care" shrug, but more like a "that's an ugly truth I don't want to deal with" kind of shrug - at least that's how I read it. Could that sort of thing tie in with what you're describing?


I have the letter that I wrote a few weeks ago but haven't had the cajones to give him. In it I tell him that I am saying this because I need to say it, and I don't want to live with the regret of not saying it. I tell him that I still love him with all my heart, always have, always will, and I have no expectations from it. I tell him that I'd like to ask forgiveness for the hurt that I caused, and as well that I've forgiven him for the hurt he caused.

I close the letter saying that the purpose of it was not to cause more hurt or upset, just to let him know how I feel, and should he ever want to talk about it, I'm here.

I've had the letter written and sitting in a safe place, but I haven't had the guts to give it to him. In the letter I don't push for anything - just state my feelings and leave it in his court. Of course since I wrote that, I did tell him that I still love him - but I didn't go any further with him face to face. I told him, and I walked away to go out as I'd scheduled.


I think on some levels he does consider me safe. After all, when GF dropped the bomb, he came to my house. I wasn't there, I was out with the kids - having a life. (A few weeks earlier he'd told me that he had a life and I didn't! OUCH). I'm not sure what would have happened if I'd opened the door that day - in a way I'm glad I wasn't there, but in a way I'm sorry that I wasn't there - but then wasn't the time to tell him how I was feeling anyway.

He told me. I think I was the first person he told, and I was sympathetic and supportive. For the 2 weeks that she remained here preparing to leave, I was supportive, but not intrusive. After she left, I gave him a small loan, which he repaid - and I've been trying to be a good friend to him since then, but he hasn't taken the conversation beyond superficial since then - but I didn't try to make it more intimate when I realized he was still in contact with her.

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. I've been trying to respect his boundaries by not interfering in his relationship with the GF. Even though she changed it by leaving, it still exists in some form. I figured it would eventually burn itself out, so I've sort of been waiting in the wings til she was gone, in order to start building more on that friendship that I've been cultivating.

Maybe I need to be a bit more proactive - entice him away from the GF more directly. I just figured that as long as his head was in a fog with her, I'd just be sabotaging myself to try to come between them. I've been doing it this way because I didn't want to be the "rebound woman" and mainly out of fear that he'll turn me down because he still think he's got potential with the GF.

I don't know. If it feels like the right time to talk, I'll initiate some conversation and lead it in that direction. I do think BD has it right - that if he's having some of those feelings he may be afraid of being turned down himself, because I've demonstrated that I am OK on my own. Maybe the signals I'm giving seem mixed to him although they are clear to me - and vice versa.

I do know I can't go along in limbo forever - something has to give. If he still loves me, some part of him always did, and always will. If he doesn't, I might as well get it over with and find out once and for all, and get on with my life from that point, whichever way it turns out.

I didn't have any chance to talk to him last night - he was in and out of here fast and we were busy. We've got a long weekend coming up. He may stop here tonight, he may not. Depending on how long he stays if he does stop in, I've got an hour after work to spend before I have to go pick up DD at a party. If opportunity presents, I may just try initiating a conversation, or ask him if he'd like to join me to get a bite to eat.

I'm wanting to ask him if he'll spend some time with us as a family on Monday. I don't know if he will or not... but it's as good a time as any to ask.

Stay tuned... we'll see what happens.

If he does turn me down, but if the conversation doesn't go that far as to 'feelings', should I just let it go, or keep trying?

JinGA

Are you saying that the result would be either total success or total ruination? Total success is easier for me to understand than total ruination. IMO, if he freaks and says effectively, "EWWWWWWWWWWWWWW! NO WAY JOSE! I never want to see you again because now I know that you have feelings for me!", then that would be a pretty clear sign that he's not someone worth being around anyway.

I think the WORST that could realistically happen is him saying that he'd like to think about it for a while. That he's confused in his own feelings right now, and he still needs more time to process. If anything, it might help him along having a clearer idea of what your intentions are.

Set a boundary for yourself with a timeline that you are comfortable with - say 6 months (or more - or less - whatever you like). I wouldn't share that with him. Just that the offer is on the table, but it won't last into perpetuity.

(please see my follow up post on the next page)

Oh gosh, I'm sure I don't have a clue as to how well or how much of it he's actually processed and analyzed. Shame can be a very raw and unrefined emotion. If anything, I think we tend to avoid processing it because it's just so painful.


It could, or it might not. He sounds like an enigmatic guy without a lot of experience in expressing his feelings to others. Ask him how he feels about the notion of leaving his kids and moving to another state. Without judgement - matter of fact-like.


Hold onto the letter. Keep it for yourself for right now. That's my suggestion.


Do what you are comfortable doing. Nothing more, nothing less. You can continue to try because you want to, or you can quit. All I am encouraging you to do is to seek some clarity with your XH. Make that your goal and decide your path from there. It's hard to decide on your destination without really knowing your point of origin, you know? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

(btw, I have another post at the bottom of the last page in case you missed it)

Heheh OK you've got me - yes I'm looking at the "doomsday" possibility, and you're right - that's crazy. After all, we've survived marriage ups and downs, a divorce and a bunch of ugliness last year that necessitated me taking him back to court (GF "helped" him overspend and he bounced a mortgage check.. took months to get that cleaned up!)... and throughout all that we've still remained civil, albeit stressed at that point.

Since she announced her iminent departure, I DO feel like I got my friend back at the very least. Once that was out in the open (that she was going) his whole attitude toward me changed - more relaxed, like it was OK with him to be more than just civil co-parents and business partners, because he didn't have to prove himself as my enemy to the GF. (He never said anything disrespectful to me during that time - we both maintained decorum) - but once he didn't have to keep showing her that we stayed at arm's length (with his nose plugged) he stopped being quite so aloof, and allowed himself to actually enjoy my company again - or at least that is how it appears to me.

So you're right - worst case scenario, if he doesn't want to give it another go with me, it's not likely that he's going to run screaming from the building, never to see me or speak to me again - although it could be a bit awkward.

However, I expected things to be akward after I told him I still love him - but it isn't. He's been the same as he has been these last several weeks. So even though I told him *that* much, nothing has changed.

So you're right - it's realistic to say that even if he doesn't return the sentiment, it doesn't necessarily have to change anything. I'm living with my feelings without making a big deal about it outwardly. Thanks for the reality check <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And if it doesn't fly - then I'll have to deal with my own personal fallout. That's what friends, family and MB is for, right? *g*

Besides - after all of this angst, it's either going to be a new start for us, or - to use a cliche, "closure".

And I'll just hang on to the knowledge and belief that if he chooses to say no, it's HIS loss. I'm a good woman, we have great kids, a decent home and a business. I'm worthy. If he chooses not to see that, he's missing out.

He's a good man, and he's had some rough times. He's got a chance before him to make things good and right again, and maybe he doesn't see it just yet, but hopefully I can show him this, and if it's what he wants, he'll do what it takes. If not - well he's always got the GF or others like her *g*.

JinGA

At the very, very, VERY least, you can move on with your life knowing that you did everything you could to work things out and that neither one of you was ever left under a veil of confusion. Is a refusal of your attempt to reach out worse than the anxiety of not knowing?

I'm not asking you to read his mind. I'd say I know him better than anyone (I think at times I've known him better than he knows himself!). I'm not sure how much he may have consciously processed - but I'm quite sure that subconsciously he's at least hit on some of it.


Got it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

Ironic - I felt that way when I went through with the divorce. I tried, I was turned down, I moved on. My next relationship wasn't what I was looking for, so I passed on that, and the feelings for my XH keep coming back to the surface. They never really subsided, although I tried to force them down, push them aside .. I said that in my letter too. So right now I'm no further "behind" than I was then, although I wouldn't have to revisit the pain of going through with the divorce and such.

So no, being rejected is NOT worse than the angst I'm going through right now. And when I did decide to proceed with the D, I wrote to him then stating my feelings, that it wasn't what I wanted, but it was what I felt I needed to do - to put safeguards in place (child support etc) and regain control of my life.

I have those now - those are firmly in place. But I still feel the same way now, as I did then - that I still would like for things to be worked out between us.

So if it doesn't fly, I know for once and for all, and I learn to live with how I feel about him.

I'm on my own, have been for a while, and I'm doing just fine anyway - nobody can take that from me, right?

JinGA

I think that's right. I think that we can choose to give freely, or abandon, but I am coming to learn that no one can take what we don't offer.

At least not emotionally.

Well, I'm going to look for an opportunity to talk with him - *really* talk, and try to get it all out there. I just hope I can keep my emotions in check, and put it out there the right way so I don't scare him off.

I need to get it out - I've been festering on it for a while - so when the next chance comes along to just put my cards on the table, I think I will.

I just hope GF doesn't call or text message him in the middle of it!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

Yeah, I can kinda see how that would queer the moment. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

ahhh JinGA....i remember the feeling...reconciliation seemed so close, so possible that you can taste it....you are anxious, scared....

Don't be surprised if XH responds less than enthusiastically....however that does not necessarily mean that he's not pondering it...he's scared too....it may take some time before he's ready to take another chance on relationships....in his mind, he's probably thinking..."I've screwed up twice now, how will this be any different"...."can she really forgive me and live with what I've done"...."can I do what it takes to make it work?"....many questions for him too....

You seem like you are in a good place to handle it though...

If the talk goes well, great...if not...keep up with what you are doing....it could be closer than you think!

Your story is sooo similar to mine...I'm hoping the best for your family!

Yep, that's me...worse than a high school kid with a crush - because there's so much more than "just me" at stake.


I think in a roundabout way you've put your finger on it for me. While I've pondered that he may be thinking those things, and maybe even hanging in with GF because he sees nothing better on the horizon, I've also wondered if he's ever stopped blaming me for it all, and owned his part in it? For all I know he could still be thinking that it was all my fault that the M ended in the first place, so why would he even give me a second thought? That's negative self-talk coming into play here - he *has* made changes for himself, he *has* owned some of the LB (albeit indirectly) to me... I'm the one casting a negative light on that because I don't know for sure that he's forgiven me my LB and owned all of his. There's that variable that scares me because if he still blames me after all this time, he's not going to be receptive.

But thanks for the heads up that a less than running with open arms reaction is not necessarily bad - in fact that reaction isn't necessarily what I want. Perhaps ultimately, yes, but if it's there it's going to take some work on both our parts to get to that point, but IMO, at least I'm in a good emotional place to start that.


I think so too - but I won't know til I'm there. I'm older, life's lessons have taught me and I've learned some things, I'm wiser and more mature. Hopefully those will help me out in either eventuality.


I so appreciate these words - and all the help and thought-provoking support here. It helps to know I'm not alone, that's for sure!


How did it happen for you? Did you make the move, or did your H? Who was the WS? I read some of your posts but not enough to get the entire gist... care to share a Cliff's Notes version? *g*

JinGA

I'm incapable of telling a short story!!!

I was BS...he was living & working 2 hours away when the A happened, work was coming to an end when it all hit the fan and he decided to stay where he was and continue the A and wanted to end the M.

I was insistent on trying to save the M from the start....

It dragged on for about 2 years...many tries at good plan B...but I was horrible at it....

Finally I had to go through with the D for financial reasons mostly, I had to protect what was left...by this time I believe the A was in it's final days....

Within days of the D, he was so broke he moved back to the area...but he was a mess...angry, still blaming me for everything...I tried to reach out occasionally but would get my hand bit everytime....over the winter he stayed where he could, eventually staying with our oldest S...by early spring he finally crashed and burned...any time I saw him he would be emotional and angry...child support enforcement was breathing down his neck and I wouldn't budge...when it looked as though he was having a breakdown...I reached out to his family that he had alienated(outof town)to get him some help, I gave him some gas $ and sent him to them to chill out for a couple of weeks....he was very appreciative....

After that, he began to take his his head outta the sand and attend to his affairs....more enthusiastic job search, we worked out the child support, he went to counseling, he did some repairs around the house and stained the house, he started spending more time at the house and we went out alone together occassionaly, and when our S gave up the apt., he needed a place to stay and I let him come to the house....even though we both agreed that it didn't mean we were reconciling....YET....

Over the summer we slowly became a couple again...but I had to learn to back off and let it happen....I was certain we could work it out, as I had felt from the start, but he wasn't so sure....I was in a better place emotionally than he was and I had to let him heal....

One of his issues with our relationship was that he felt I was controlling, so it became important that I didn't "control" this reconciliation and "make" it happen...I had to let go and let it happen....and I wanted him to be sure that this was what he wanted and that he was willing to work on it...

We are in a good place now...and our family has healed very well....

That about sums it up, I can answer any questions....

Wow <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I started reading one of your old threads but was interrupted (darn it I'm at work!) I'll go back and revisit it later. Yes there are quite a few similarities too.

So you reached out first - as I've been trying to do. Who initiated the deeper conversation(s)? Did he back away at first? Did he outright say no at any point? Any other wisdom you might impart?

Well I kind of wimped out tonight. He just left 2 minutes ago. He stopped in for maybe 10 minutes, he checked on something we're having a problem with we talked outside for 5 minutes and he was off. The issue we're having at the shop will be dealt with over the weekend when we have 2 bodies (possibly 3 if my part time helper is able to come in) so we'll be able to work on it, or one works on that while the other serves customers etc.

I mentioned that I had to pick DD up later and that maybe I'd take the kids to the restaurant we trade with. I asked him if he'd like to join us (no I didn't say I wanted him to join us, I wasn't that brave) and he said, no he'd rather go home. So I jokingly said, "Do we smell or something?" He said no and shrugged. As he was walking to his car I said, "You know, I'm going to stop inviting you if you don't take me up on it sooner or later!" as I chuckled (keeping it light) and he just sort of shrugged and left. He wasn't in a bad mood, just "not interested". Bummer.

So no I didn't push to talk - there's an hour til closing here and with my luck just when I got up the guts to say something meaningful a customer would come along, and no I didn't say, "I want you to join us"... and no he didn't accept my invitation. Instead he's going home alone to his apartment.

It wasn't the right time to have "that" conversation, and clearly at this point he'd rather go home by himself than come back out later to join us for supper. Of course there's 2 hours between now and then - he *could* change his mind... but I doubt it.

Honestly when she left I thought he might find excuses to hang around here, come by the house - like he used to do. I haven't invited him to the house, not yet. I figured that dinner out with the kids and me would be a good starting point just to rebuild family ties, but for whatever reason he's just not interested.

I'll keep inviting him every so often. And maybe over the weekend I'll have an appropriate opportunity to talk with him about more than just customer "K" has to replace her slate tiles....

:::frustrated::::

JinGA

Shugah, if you're still reading - I read all 22 pages of your thread... and I was riveted. What a journey! It's hard to believe the outcome was recovery - I'm very proud of you for loving your H, despite all the stuff and drama that took place. I chuckled to myself when I read your impression of the OW - "skanky" - yep that about describes my XH's GF. All tramp-stamped, dresses very cheaply - no bra, and gravity isn't being kind *g*. Something to be really proud to take home to Mom (and he did last year!). Skanky, trashy, cheap, taudry, I could come up with more adjectives, but I think you know what I'm talking about! He definitely traded down with her. I'm no beauty queen, but I'm clean and decent and I dress appropriately for my figure, and I wouldn't shame anybody by my presence. She's got a potty mouth too. I've been known to use strong language, but I can also appreciate when it's NOT appropriate - I've seen her curse on her own networking pages, and post obscenities on other's pages (yep, I've looked - hey it's public domain, anybody can read it).

My situation isn't nearly so dramatic - although it's had its moments. We haven't got physical in a conflict and there hasn't really been harsh words - in fact I haven't started or participated in a fight concerning his GF or my XBF although during our little business-related tiff back in March he took a pot-shot at my XBF who was sick when he moved back to his own home state and in with his parents to convalesce (where he remains, I guess - we are NC now). I saw myself being led to take a shot below the belt and I told him he was being led around by the p#nis, but I let it go at that and didn't stoop to his level any further. To my knowledge I haven't LB since, and it had been a long long time since I'd LB before that.

The worst "drama" we've had is when I had to take him back to court in November for contempt when he bounced the July mortgage check (part of my property settlement) and he blew off my attorney when he called XH to give him a chance to make good on it after I'd received a foreclosure call. I ended up having to borrow money from my Mom... take him back to court... I let the attorney deal with it, XH made an @$$ of himself before the judge, and I've been reimbursed (and my Mom repaid...)

There was some other drama last summer when he was broke and desperate and I'd bet the farm that it was the GF that put him up to some shenanigans concerning our business. After checking with my attorney (I'm majority shareholder), I felt it necessary (and it was legal) to change the locks and alarm codes on the business- and he did pop the door to try to get in (for unknown reasons)... and the police were summoned for the alarm. No arrest, no charges - but only because he is a part owner. I think he was either trying to steal cash or property out of the business but he was unsuccessful. I'm sure the GF was behind his feeble attempts to get copies of the ledger and financials - I think she wanted him to either get cash out of the business (LOL there is none!) or borrow against it (hence the need for financial statements). When my attorney explained that unless he provided a verifiable reason *in writing* with 10 days' notice, I didn't have to give him anything. So I let him know what's what he needed to do, and he abandoned that effort. (I'm so much smarter than his GF is!). I don't think he really wanted to harm the business - and I'd even go so far as to guess that he knows me well enough to know I'd stymie any attempts. Since hurting the business would have hurt him too, I'll bet he gambled on me putting the kibosh on that, rather than standing up to the GF. But I digress...

Today was sort of routine - it's quiet due to the long weekend but it wasn't bad. He showed up a few minutes late (no biggie) and the day started slowly. A friend of mine and her (teenaged) children arrived - and she asked me if I could go with her and her DD a few doors down to get a pedicure (Dutch treat) - so I asked XH if he minded if I skipped out for a little bit and he said OK, not too grudgingly. So I was out for a couple of hours doing that. He called once to see how much longer I'd be - he wasn't busy, and my toenails weren't dry yet! He also came in to "check" on us once to laugh about my friend's sons whom he tried to put to work but they politely declined *g*.

After that, my friend and I were talking outside and he joined us. My friend was updating me on a situation I already knew about - her (2nd) XH (not the father of her kids) got himself 'engaged' to an Internet Golddigger and he got screwed to the tune of about $43,000 in debts. At first she thought it was only $38,500. Her XH came to her for help with his finances after he got dumped and she's helping him sort out the fallout (she's not giving him money, just helping him arrange to pay all this stuff off). She used to manage his money for him during and after their M, but when he started seeing somebody new, post D, she just told him he could take care of his own stuff - so he handed it over to his new GF who took care of her own bills with his money, didn't pay his, and ran up his credit cards (boy some people are STUPID!).

Anyway when XH heard all this he was shocked. (Boy there's irony in that!). He couldn't believe the stupidity of this man (OMG double irony! I had to contain myself!) I held my tongue and didn't say a word. He said he was, "I'm glad that didn't happen to me, I kept my money as my own." I nearly spit my Coke at that moment - that's because SHE didn't have any money and he lived in overdraft for the last year+, had bills unpaid, had stuff shut off, had stuff go to collections, he's paid hundreds (if not over $1000 in bank charges for overdraft protection at $30 per - some pay periods he'd get 5 or 6 - they are mailed to MY house!).... and he's got the nerve to say something about my friend's XH??? Let me tell you - I put on my very best poker face at that moment and my friend knew that I was a hair's breadth away from splitting a gut over that one.

The ONLY difference between my friend's XH and my XH in that regard, is that my friend's XH had more resources and available credit. My XH abused his credit when he started courting his GF, and they cut his credit limit right down the minute he became a bad risk. Make no mistake, if my XH had a credit card with a $12K limit, it would be maxxed out right now too. Like I said - he just didn't have it available to take, or I firmly believe she'd have taken it. Maybe he didn't hand over his checkbook, but apparently he wasn't able to say "no" and spent himself into oblivion.

Anyway - I kind of thought that his comment comparing his situation to my friend's XH was sort of interesting. I would have anticipated that he wouldn't have thought it similar at all.

So I began to wonder if GF had faded into the distance finally.

NOPE I was wrong. Later in the day, about half an hour before closing, his phone rang, and I heard that all too familiar, nauseating, "Hi Baby" (although he said it very quietly, almost under his breath) - usually he says it loud and proud LOL! He put on his headset and continued about the task he was doing, and I stayed back in another part of the shop working on what I was doing, so I didn't have to hear. I think he was only on the phone 10-15 minutes - listening mostly from what I could see - but I didn't remain within earshot, and I didn't "eaveslook".

So I guess that could be why he keeps declining my invitations, because he's still in fantasyland.

It sucks - it feels like he *wants* to accept if I invite, but I guess he's going to just have to live like a hermit to appease her. That's no life - but he's accepting of that. I can't see that being too fun for very long - but I guess that's up to him, right? Something tells me that the GF isn't declining any invitations she might be receiving. Honestly - he's way too good for her.

I will say that his not engaging in cake-eating (spending time with us, while keeping it going with her) is nice - even though the situation sucks. Given a choice between him having both of us on the burner, I'd rather he didn't engage with us as his family if he was keeping her on the side. That at least speaks to character in some positive way.

So I guess it's a good thing that I didn't find the opportunity to have that meaty conversation with him because it seems he wouldn't be ready to hear it anyway.

And so it goes. I'm not sure what, if anything else I should be doing right now. My life continues, I'm continuing to put my best foot forward with him, make love bank deposits when I can, not to love-bust and trying to just wait and see.

JinGA

I forgot to mention this yesterday - but I'm *almost* positive he called me "Dear" yesterday. He was asking me to hand him something (he was up on a ladder) and I could have sworn he said words like, "Pass me that thing, please, Dear." (We always called each other that. He's said it ONCE before since we split, and that was early on.)

I could be wrong - and since I wasn't sure at the time, I didn't say anything about it, but there's a distinct difference between the sound of "Dear" and my given name.

He's not the sort of person to refer to anyone and everyone as "Dear" or any other pet name - I've got clients that call me all kinds of pet names, and they call every other female the same things (perhaps they have problems remembering names?!).

If he did say it, which I'd say I'm about 80% sure that he did, he either was OK with himself for saying it, or he didn't notice his own "slip". I didn't say anything - even if I was sure I'd heard it right, I wouldn't have said anything.

We'll see if he says it again. If he does, I may just respond in kind <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

After all, everybody knows the two words that make for a perfect marriage, right?

"Yes, Dear."

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

JinGa,

Don't hang on the small stuff. I recall when my then WS called me by a pet name, I instinctively had my reverse babble hat on and said:

BS: Are you talking to me or OW?

That line threw him for a loop! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Then I qualified it:

BS: Well I had to ask because after how you've been treating us (family), I find it hard believe you want to call me in such a loving playful way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Needless to say, he apologized and I said I would 'think about it'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

See I wasn't about to get all gushy about his comment. We both knew he said it but I wasn't about to exploit it and feed his WS ego. RE: When a WS does it, they will say they are sorry because they don't want to hurt your feelings but do it again anyways....it c/b his way of checking on your radar.

Go dark.

L.