Yep XH and I have talked a bit about that. I called him to make sure he stops here before going home and we're going to discuss specifics before we proceed.

I'm going offline for a bit but I'll update later <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

OK XH has come and gone - we had a chance to speak about all this (and nothing more). He is going to take them to the movie, despite my objections. However I do see his side of things - he has not had a lot of time together with the kids - his weekend/daytimes are taken up with working here. He said he'd already planned it with them - and I added that if he did choose not to take them, it would serve as punishment because they knew they had a privilege revoked. If they'd been unaware, there'd be no perception of "consequence".

I did tell him that I would tell the children that while I respect his decision on this, had it been me, I would not have taken them. Since the children live with me, there will be plenty of time to dish out consequences - and XH has agreed to follow through with that at his end, ie no internet access etc.

We both agree that no access at all for a period of one month is a good start. After that time, we will re-visit the issue with the children and go from there.

We've agreed to both speak with the children about it, tomorrow evening after work. It just occurred to me that he may have to "explain" cutting off internet access when he comes in tomorrow - or he may just leave it on to give them a bit more rope to hang themselves - we didn't discuss that as it applies to their alone time at his place tomorrow - but I don't suppose it will make that much difference in the big picture. What's done is done.

We're going to have the, "Come to Jesus" talk with the kids together, concerning their breaking house rules and going online without permission, and DS for setting up email and other accounts behind both our backs. I'm not sure if DD has done this also - I didn't find anything incriminating on her computer, but I'm going to take another look tonight.

Then, XH will examine DS's computer (and DD if need be) and determine just what is on there (I couldn't open any of the files, but their names said more than what I needed to know). He'll clean off the smut, and we'll insist that both kids provide a list of all the sites, user names and passwords. This will be their only chance to come clean without further reprocussions. If XH or I find anything that wasn't already mentioned, in future snoopings, there will be further consequences.

Aside from losing their online privileges, I've got plenty of chores that need doing around the house that can fill the time they won't be spending online for the next few weeks. Breaking house rules by deceit is one of the worst offences in my book. XH understands that my biggest issue is the deceit issue, followed closely by my concern for their security and safety. The porn issue almost pales by comparison (ALMOST... *g*).

Once we've had that talk with the kids and XH has examined the computer, it will be time for him to have "the talk" with DS about the impropriety of porn. Once he's had a chance to do that, we will both speak to him about it. That way the "private" man-stuff can be dealt with, but I will also have my say in the matter, and hopefully it will just be uncomfortable enough for him to know not to do it again.

Like I said earlier - it's a crummy situation to deal with - but it's one that modern parents will all have to face at some point (most likely). I'm very pleased that XH and I have almost identical points of view on this, we were able to carry on a very good email discussion as well as an in-person discussion about it. We were even able to agree to disagree on the movie issue.

Wow - can I add "negotiation" to my list of love-bank deposits made lately? I can say that XH can add it to his list to my love bank. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

Sounds like a pretty good plan and I'm happy to see that you and your XH are able to work together on this. I'm cringing at what the kids have in front of them - especially the boy. I will say that I can understand your XH's POV on the movie. It's an event that he has planned with them. By cutting it off, it sort of make the punishment unilateral on his end. Even if you chime in with your support, it's still something that they could perceive as him doing to them, you know? Personally I believe meting out the punishment together is the right thing to do. It expresses a unified front to the kids and doesn't cast either of you as the "bad guy" exclusively.

Exactly. Like I said - I see his side of the issue too - sucks to have to be the bad guy instantly the minute he has an evening with them (well they went to the library last night but that's "routine").

As to XH's other "stuff" - I didn't see any of that today but mainly because we had a hot issue at hand.

Negotiating was good - but it was very 'business'. I feel like emotionally we are drawing apart again in a sense. As I see/feel it, we *were* getting closer, slowly and in small ways but I feel like he has pulled back still (for the last week or so).

Hoping that once his "stuff" passes, I can make more progress.

I do think that negotiating this out was a good thing - shows him that I don't necessarily have to fly off the handle. I didn't always - but I have done it enough for him to be watchful of it. In my "growing" the last few years I've learned that flying off the handle is really the hard way to deal with things. Holding my tongue, thinking more carefully before I speak (I always think before I speak, now I just think *longer*)... makes a big difference in how I approach things, and how I'm perceived when I do.

I just wish that GF would leave him in the dust (or better yet, let him leave her in the dust...) so I could feel a bit safer about approaching him in a serious way about reconciling. Right now I'm feeling that he's not interested, but at times I've felt that he is or might be.

Well we have the weekend working together...

JinGA

Well the "family meeting" went well. XH was going to have the private part of the talk later, he took the kids back to his place.

I'm frustrated, that would be the best word for it. I'm going through a variety of emotions right now.

We talked about the situation with the kids and it was great. The meeting with the kids went well. DS was bummed but that was to be expected, and in the end he agreed the punishment is fair, and he apologized. DD hadn't really committed a huge transgression, but it was important that she receive the same consequence, although the majority of the "lecture" was aimed at DS.

OK... /rant mode: ON

My frustration and emotional roller coaster has to do with XH. We were able to discuss the kids' issue in an extremely constructive way, we negotiated successfully and respectfully concerning how we'd go about things and what actions we'd take. The meeting went well, we each backed each other up, and the kids see we're united on the issue.

It was so nice to have XH sitting in the living room, himself, the kids and I all together... *sigh* if only he didn't have to leave.

But earlier today when his cell phone started ringing (it was on the front counter, he was in another room at the shop, I picked it up to bring it to him and the caller ID said, "Baby" (GAG!) I don't know how many times she called today - but I'm sure it was at least twice. He was out for part of the morning and he came back with his headset on.

Then late in the day before closing, he was telling me about GF's son (the one he's told me is "unmanageable"... complaining about the boy's father... how he never sent child support, but he'd send the boy money. How he told the boy that if he ever got in a fight, to throw the first punch... and then the GF's daughter... how he preferred her to the boy - and the girl's father isn't involved at all - never calls (hrmmm what does he think will happen with *his* relationship with his own kids if he moves away????).

I keep asking myself what is so freaking wonderful about this woman that she still has such a firm hold on him??? And I'm hardly unbiased but facts are facts. She and her kids lived off him and she didn't work for a whole year, then she turned around and just left. She didn't cook or clean (my kids and XH brother both complained to me about this). She doesn't drive. She has 2 kids, 2 daddies - maybe a third (according to info that GF daughter told my DD). She married the oldest kid's father, but the daughter told me herself, "My mommy and daddy didn't bother to get married" (how nice is that to hear from a 9 year old?)

Since she left, he's recovering financially, devoting more time to the business he co-owns, and he's not having to taxi them here and there, he's got more quality time with JUST his own children...

She chose to leave for 6 weeks and leave her kids behind with him - free babysitter while she went home to look after her "sick father" - but XH kept telling me about her weekends at the lake with this one or that one - sounded really like a vacation from her vacation to me - and if I asked how sick father was, XH had no idea (!!!!). 3 days after she returned, she chose to move herself and her kids back to where they came from. SHE LEFT HIM, but she's still hanging on to him, and he's continuing to be a doormat, and he is just fine with it. She left his apartment a total wreck - XH's brother cleaned a lot of it up, a couple of weeks after the fact.

Meanwhile, his home is here, his kids are here, I am here. We all still love him, I'd like nothing more than to at least *try* to see if it would work again - and I believe we've both made enough changes to have things be better than ever if ONLY he'd just give it a chance, put the GF and all her junk in his past, and open his eyes and see what is HERE, what is NOW and what is REAL.

I swear he is one huge mixed signal. He teases me playfully - today during the family meeting I made a comment to the kids, "I'm old, but I'm not stupid" and he playfully gave me a look and made a signal as if he was zipping his lip. He did it twice and we laughed about it and I told him I wasn't going to take the potshot back (I guess I *am* stupid, I married you! NO I didn't say it!). We get along famously at work. He hasn't been as chatty as usual in the last week but today he was very open about discussing GF's kids issues (last subject I really wanted to talk about...)

He also told me about a co-worker from his old job, and how he got her a job where he is now - which is a good thing. I am acquainted with the lady and I like her. She was with a man for a long time, married him after he returned from service in Iraq, and then one day his girlfriend showed up at their home, wondering who the heck answered the door (his WIFE - my XH friend/coworker). He expressed his disgust about the friend's husband's infidelity etc.

It was sad news about that, but it was nice chatting about old familiar friends - people I know, and catching up about them (aside from the fact that it was bad news for her M, but good news he helped her get a job.)

So today he was more chatty than he's been all week, which was a nice change. When he started talking about GF's kids, that took the wind out of my sails but I talked about it with him.

Inside I was dying to ask him why he continues to waste his time (and likely money) on this "family"... but I didn't. That wasn't the time or place (still during working hours).

I feel like I'm at a stalemate. A standstill. There's so much I want to say, but I feel like I can't. Inside I am screaming.

I feel powerless to a woman 2000 miles away with tons of "baggage". I feel like she has him blinded to anything and everything else.

And all that is ridiculous. But the fact that I'm no closer to moving forward with him after this much time is frustrating. I want to try to get closer, but I don't know how. He's declined my invitations (I did not make one this week). He is close, but still very much at "arm's length"... like he only lets me get so close, then he pulls away. Today he was a bit closer than he has been in a week, but she was also in his face (or in his ear) several times during the day.

OK... I think... /rant mode: OFF

On a positive note I am hopeful that the family meeting and 3 days and nights with the kids will serve to reinforce how much his kids need and want him in their lives, and that I need and want him to be an equal parent. That issue will weigh heavily into any decision he makes concerning moving, and I hope he has an eyeful of that tonight.

Hearing him complain about the lack of involvement of GF's daughter's father is interesting too. Like I said in my "rant" - what does he think will happen if he moves away? Occasional phone calls are NO substitute for a parent close by, or better yet, in the home. At best he'd see his kids once a year - IF finances permit. My finances don't and I believe there's a requirement for the "moved" spouse to pay the way for kids to visit. Well he spent the last year in overdraft when GF lived with him - so that would probably remain the same or worse if he moved there...so just how would the kids see him at all?

I certainly hope he gives all of these things serious consideration.

In the last 2 weeks the subject of his vacation has not been touched again. Nor has the possible move. I honestly can't see him moving - but I guess he hasn't thought that much about things, because if he did, he might realize the futility of his current situation - and even perhaps realize that spending all that time and money to go there on vacation would be a huge waste. What's the point if it's a dead end? I just don't get why he does not see that, and why he is continuing to choose that over what awaits him at home.

So then I start getting angry at myself - if he's that blind that he can't see this, why does he deserve me or our kids?

That's a bad attitude to have - but I keep asking myself that.

So I was sitting here tonight, watching the game, and pondering my existence, and while I was typing this post, a casual friend sent me an email with a link to an inspirational website - a message of faith and hope.

I've been praying a LOT. Praying for help and guidance and praying for God to touch my XH's heart and show him the way home again. Just as I hit the point of "despair" - that inspirational message was sent to me.

Perhaps it's a sign - I often ask God to send me a neon sign and a roadmap <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I think maybe he just did...

So I'm going to try to shake this negativity (which I don't let XH see...) and say some more prayers and ask God to help me through this and I will keep asking Him to work on my XH.

I think I feel a bit better having got all that off my chest.

I could use some input... please...

JinGA

Do you ever watch the Discovery Channel? There's this series they have called Mand vs Wild. It's about this guy who is a former British Special Forces (SAS) soldier being thrown into a very hostile environment somewhere in the world, and having to make his way back to civilization, usually with nothing but the clothes on his back, a knife, a canteen, and a flint. That's all. Each episode is a different locale.

I just finished watching one tonight that put him in the Moab Desert in Utah. He spent 3 days traversing it with no map or compass even. His strategy was to find a canyon because canyons lead to water and water in a desert is usually a river which in turn leads to civilization. At one point, he found himself swimming through a stagnant pool of water in a little ravine thinking it might take him to an actual flowing river. But at one crucial point, he came to a logjam, likely caused by a flash flood. He could't climb it because it was too unstable. He couldn't go around it because the walls of the ravine were too steep. He could have gone back the way he came, but that would have set him back two days worth of travel with no real discernible alternative direction.

That seems like the kind of situation you are in. Things are just stagnant and all of your obvious, or traditional routes are blocked or ineffectual. Three choices now present themselves; 1)Sit still, maybe something will change around you, 2)Go back the way you came - give up, 3)Find a new course of action.

The guy in the show got through the logjam by swimming under it. He actually failed the first time he tried it. The water was murky, and it's easy to get turn around. Even right side up is tricky. He didn't know how far he had to go or even what he'd find on the other side. What if it was just another logjam?

But that first attempt gave him a lot of information. He was able to see light and figured he'd break through with just another 5 seconds of swimming. And he made it through on the second try.

I dunno... That story just seems appropriate to me here for some reason.

So I need to find a way under the log jam.

You know I wish I had the guts to just *ask* him about the GF and why he still carries on? Unless he moves out there, it's a dead end. Moving out there would be the end of his relationship with his kids, and likely career suicide, as well as financial suicide, and eventually, emotional suicide.

Anybody with an ounce of logic can see this. Why would anybody want to pursue somebody who just one day decided to up and leave without any consideration of them? He doesn't have children with her, he wasn't married to her. He made great sacrifices for her, yet the only one she made was in moving here for a year, and then she moved back.

I just want to give his head a shake.

I feel like as long as she has this hold on him (and I guess him for her), anything I say or do is futile.

Well maybe not futile - I am still trying to make love-bank deposits as I can, in the hope that once he does pull his head out of the fog, he may have a better perspective of what is *here* for him.

I have to say it stings that he can't or won't see it yet though.

When she dropped the bomb that she was leaving he was *so* hurt, so vulnerable, so devastated. The fact that he's remaining open to this woman is a mystery to me. He always was so guarded - of course while he's still putting himself out there to her, there's a lot less damage that she can do to him from 2000 miles away - maybe that's the rub... he's "in a relationship" but without all the pressures and responsibilities that being in a relationship entails.

He no longer has to feed and clothe her and her kids. He no longer has to shuttle them here and there. He no longer has to come home to whatever is going on. He no longer has to answer to her for his every action.

He simply has to answer the phone, or make the phone call.

He can tell her what he wants to tell her or what she wants to hear - and she can do the same.

No pressure, no responsibilities.

Of course in that there's a lot of unmet needs. A voice on the phone can only be *enough* for so long - that's why I still think it will fizzle sooner or later - I was just hoping for sooner. It's been 6+ weeks since she left. Maybe *my* timeline (opinion) is just a lot shorter than his (or hers).

I'm more or less banking on the notion that he won't move. His vacation is in about a month (it's in July but he never stated the dates, but he thought it was around July 1). And I'd bet he still goes there - but there's a world of difference in escaping the real world for 2 weeks to live a fantasy, and doing what it takes to make the move permanent.

If he does move, he's not half the man I ever thought he was - and I'll just need to force myself to wake up.

If he is the man I know - he will stay here, for his kids, for his career - if nothing else.

At that point he's going to have to decide if a phone relationship is what he envisions for the rest of his life, or if he figures it out that he needs more than that.

And at some point, she will likely tire of waiting for him and move on (if she hasn't already - I wouldn't be surprised if she's still playing him, and with somebody else - although all the phone calls would be tricky to make if you're with somebody else... dunno now about that one). Of course if she's initiating something by phone or Internet with somebody else, it would be very easy to play them both and not get caught. She has many relationships under her belt so statistically he's a fool to think he's "the one" because there is no "one" for somebody like that who moves from one to another so often. Meanwhile she'll suck as much life (and money) out of him as she can, while waiting for the next ripe one to come along.

I almost laughed when XH was describing the GF's exes (the kids' fathers) as a-holes. I'm sure if she feels scorned by XH at some point, he'll be described as an a-hole too. If all her exes are a-holes... he'll join the club sooner or later <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Well I still have the advantages she doesn't. We have history, kids, assets, he has his career here, we've made our lives here - albeit we've been apart for 3 years but never far apart geographically, and whether we want to admit it or not (I can admit it - but can he?) we need each other.

I have to believe that sooner or later, he's going to realize that. I'm going to keep showing him this on a daily basis, to the best of my ability.

And if the time ever presents itself - I AM going to ask the tough questions, and see what he says. I just am frustrated waiting for a "good time". There may never be a good time - but I've got to keep my eyes open for an opportunity. I just hope I don't chicken out.

I don't know why I'm so afraid to talk to him on a deeper level. I guess I'm afraid I'm going to get hurt. After all, I've been hurt before.

I'm afraid to hurt him - which is silly because I can only hurt him if he lets me - and he can only hurt me if I let him - although I feel a bit powerless about that part.

I just feel that yesterday - with the "family meeting" it may have reinforced his place here - with his kids, if not with me. They need him. If he chooses the other path, he will lose them, and worst of all, they will lose him.

I'm praying that God touches his heart and that worst never happens.

JinGA

Why don't you tell him that? The last part I mean. About how you think his place should be here with his family and the children that he helped to conceive and raise. Not 2000 miles away with a woman and children that he no real legal or moral responsibility for. Maybe you could look him dead in the eye, "Why is this even a question for you?". Even if he just gets one of those looks on his face and shrugs like you say he does so often, at least he can't say that he never realized. That it never occurred to him. You think he's a good man, so appeal to that side of his nature.

Well, I don't want to bring the subject up. Yep that's a cowardly way of going about it, but I don't trust myself enough at this point not to LB and DJ all over the place.

I may have been doing it in my "vents" here - but I'm not doing it outwardly.

I'm afraid that if I do broach the subject, I'm going to fall into my own trap.

If I was smart (which sometimes I am, sometimes I'm not), when he started bringing up GF's kids' issues, I should have asked him that question - although I'm not sure how I'd have phrased it so as not to LB or DJ...

I'd want to ask him why he'd choose to live with GF and her dysfunctional family, over his own? But that is a LB and a DJ. How about, your kids need you, and they need you close to them. Imagine if our DS got into some of the same trouble that GF's son did?

Of course our DS is nothing like GF's...

Sometimes I think that he might consider that our kids are so well-adjusted that it would be OK for him to move, they'll adjust and be alright - after all they've done just fine so far...

Nothing could be further from the truth. And I'm not wanting my kids to start acting out and getting into trouble - I thank God that I have such amazing kids. Of course they *are* that way in good part because we've been good parents. I just don't know if XH understands that his absence from their lives changes that dynamic.

I just realized I've been dealing with this situation the way *he* usually does - procrastinating. I haven't brought up the subject of the vacation again because I don't want a fight about it. And I realize it only becomes a fight if I make it one, or allow it to become one.

I still think the "move" is just smoke...

But as to the vacation - even if he abandons the idea of taking the kids, *I* still do need to discuss it. The business will need a backup plan, somebody to take up his duties in his absence. I can probably handle routine stuff on my own for 2 weeks, but what do I do in an emergency?

What about the mortgage? Last year we got into a huge mess because the mortgage payment immediately after his return, bounced. He never paid attention, and I was unaware of the problem until I got a foreclosure call a month after the check bounced - and the mortgage company demanded the 2 months due to make the account whole, within 24 hours. I had my attorney call him, he blew it off, and I had to do some fast talking and fast borrowing from family, to make the account whole again. I ended up going straight to the court system to make matters right (contempt complaint) instead of trying to work with him to make this right because I didn't think it would get me anywhere and at that time was when he walked away from the business and was desperate for money. Can't get blood from a stone, so I let the judge order it.

I am fearful that this type of thing will happen again, and I need to communicate that to him.

My thing is this - if I bring it up, even from a practical standpoint only (ie the business and how to adjust for his absence) that is likely to put him on the defensive immediately and it has the potential to go downhill from there.

I'm likely going to have to be the one to bring it up eventually - but I've still got a bit of time. By mid month this month, I'm going to have to approach him about it, if he doesn't bring it up first - and I doubt he'll bring it up first.

Then I will have to state my questions and concerns without being aggressive or judgmental. I *can* do that - but he will still likely perceive it as an attack anyway. That's where it gets tricky. If he gets into defensive/fight mode, it's really hard not to get dragged down into it. That's why I haven't brought it up again.

Still - once that subject *does* come up, it may be an opportunity to delve a bit deeper if it feels appropriate. In fact it may be the best opportunity to ask that question.

I'm putting it off, and it's bothering me. Ah internal conflict... gotta love it.

JinGA

Orchid: LB and DJ is from the BS perspective. To a raging WS, everything a BS says and does is considered a LB or DJ. Go with reality. In my case, if I had something to say to the WS, I just said it. I didn't wonder if he would take it wrong. I expected him to and I phrased it the best I could. When he got stupid with his response, I knew my point had been made and left it at that. Sometimes it gave him something to ponder about later (Ws' are slow at grasping the truth) and other times it went over his head....and well, I can't control what he retains. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: I know this is a burning question that any sane person knows the correct answer but to say it to a WS in the fog.....may result on you seeing him as 'stuck on stupid'. I asked my then WS a similar question (mine was how could you choose any OP over your family)..... Let's just say the response I got was very stupid. Later when I asked the same question, the answer got better but still had traces of stupidity making it totally unacceptable. So I threw it back and it hit him like he was being slapped by a wet fish. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: Don't expect logic from a WS. That's in lesson 3 on MB. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> There is no good reason for a father to choose someone else's child over their own. When they do this, they make themselves look foolish even to those not fully aware of all the A details. Very foolish indeed.

L.

Some suggestions:

1) "Why would you consider moving away from your own family who needs you for someone else's?" I don't see any DJs or LBs in that question.

2) "I have some concerns about when you take your vacation. How do you want to arrange the mortgage payments while we're gone? And do you have any suggestions re backup and help for me here at that store?" Perhaps if you ask these things in an non-challenging manner. Just matter of fact like you already assume he's going to be gone, and your primary concerns are practical ones. It might force him to think through the ramifications of these tentative plans he's considering.

Seabird,

Very good responses. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Thanks - that's what I'm needing right now - help in how to best deal with this situation. I think *asking* is better than stating - which is my usual approach. So yes, that's very useful indeed.

When it comes around to that discussion - I'm going to keep it to the vacation for the moment, unless I get a huge red flag that he is indeed planning to move. The vacation is just that -vacation, with intent to return. I don't see him leaving on vacation and not coming back - even in his state of fog. He has worked too hard on his career to abandon it at this point - and he's not been the sort to move from job to job. He was at his second last job for 11 years and quit when it hit the emotional point of no return for him, although it had hit the promotional point of no return long before.

His last job he was at for 7 years and he was one of the many who were laid off. In fact he was the *last* one laid off.

He's been where he is just over 2 years and he has *finally* earned the pay and stature within a progressive company, that he has sought since he started going to night school to better himself, some 16 years ago or more. IMO he'd have to have something *much* better lined up in order to leave that - and while it's not impossible, it's not probable, particularly in the immediate vicinity where GF is.

So in that regard he's stable and a good provider. If he was one to move from job to job or have trouble finding or keeping work, I'd be a bit more concerned, but professionally he has a lot at stake. But I digress.

My concerns are also that last year he would not answer his phone the whole time he was away (with GF). I don't think I called him at all - had no need to, but the kids tried on several occasions, including Father's Day. They left messages and he never called them back. That bothered me a lot. He chose to totally cut off and ignore his kids for 2 whole weeks - and didn't even let any of us know when he'd returned.

I don't want a rerun of that either. I want to ask him to stay in contact with the kids while he's gone - but I don't want to be seen to be making demands about that either. It was rather an ugly scene last year when his brother and I showed up at his apartment, worried sick that some harm had come to him and we were both relieved and mad as heck to find out he'd come back and had been so insensitive about it.

Nowadays his voice mailbox is permanently full (has been for about a year now) and he won't empty it to make room for anyone to leave messages. (Avoiding collection calls maybe?! I thought so for a while). So if he doesn't answer, you can't even leave a message that it's urgent if it is. You have to hope that he will see he missed a call and return it. I suppose I could figure out how to text message him in that event... time to move with the times I guess.

I'm going to give it til the middle of the month before I initiate discussion. That's 2 weeks before his vacation IF it's at the first of the month. He never confirmed the dates even though I asked him to 2 weeks ago when I first learned of this after asking him if he could spare a couple of his vacation days to cover for me at the shop and take care of the kids while I went home to visit my mother - that's when that can of worms opened (that was the night that prompted me to start this thread.)

If/when the time comes, I will probably initiate the discussion by email. While I'd rather have it as a face to face conversation, sometimes with touchy issues it's better and easier to correspond by email, and also I have written documentation of what was said, and when, and by whom. That way I can choose my words more carefully, edit them and be sure that I'm saying what I want to say before I hit the send button.

The downside of that is that the reader "hears" it with the tone they choose to hear it in... but that is often the lesser of two evils. If the discussion begins by email and concludes in person then I can clarify any misunderstandings.

If/when I'm the one to start that dialog, I'll probably post my thoughts/letter here first to make sure I'm doing this the best way possible. I appreciate the candor here, and if anybody can pick out any better way (such as Seabird's suggestions of questions instead of statements) then I can put my best foot forward there.

It's tough to be calm and collected when such strong emotions are at work.

JinGA

Well yesterday here I had a good dialog with Pepperband here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3251923

Pepperband's perspective is a bit different - since we are divorced, he is not "foggy". I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with that, because IMO he's still doing nonsensical and illogical things - but if you can only apply "fog" to a married person, then that changes the perspective on much of what we've discussed here.

Pepperband advises me to just go ahead and ask him on a date. Expect him to decline, wait a month, tease him a little bit, and try again.

Some have suggested that I wait for the GF to be out of his system so that he's thinking more clearly, and once he's had some time and space to get back on his feet and do some more growing up - THEN to try.

I see validity to *both* approaches.

And in other news, the kids came home from XH's last night. DS asked me a bit more about the "vacation". Apparently XH brought it up and DS told him that I will likely say no (well I'll absolutely say no...). XH told DS that he and I are "talking about it". LOL! Well we talked about it 2 1/2 weeks ago when I wanted to know if I could get a few days off... that's when I found out that any time off for me is out of the question because his plans are set. At the time I didn't wish to discuss the possibility of the kids going, but I made it clear that it was not a good idea in my book.

He hasn't brought it up since. I'm not going to either - at least til the middle of the month as I mentioned before and then it will be as it pertains the the business only. If and when he does, I won't argue, I'll just say no and that's it.

Otherwise the weekend was good. He wasn't as distant as he had been during the previous week. In fact we talked quite a bit about hockey and the kids and such... and last night at closing he had a client to attend to. I offered help but he'd declined, but 10 minutes after he arrived he called to ask me to bring him more supplies. I did that and helped him complete the job, return to the shop and put everything away. We finished over 2 hours past closing time.

While I respect Pepperband's input to my inquiry in the other thread, my gut is telling me to sit tight for a little bit longer. I don't think God is done working on us yet. So for the moment I'm going to keep on with my Modified Plan A with a 180 - carry on with my life - which is pretty good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And let XH figure out his own course for the moment. God will lead him back to me if that's His will.

Reading Seabird's thread on EN board, posters there have advised him that he needs to Let Go and Let God - and that advice has rung true with me too.

I think God will tell me when the time is right - and THEN I'll implement Pepperband's techniques <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

Jin - I haven't dug too deeply into the infidelity concepts here because I don't think that they apply to my situation. Perhaps a few nuggets here and there, but nothing en-toto.

With that qualifier in place, I would hazard that there is a little fog in just about every romantic relationship when the heart takes over and the mind rides shotgun. It really ought to be the other way around with the heart reading the map and giving directions, you know?

I know that I have been in a few Rs that when I look back now I think, "Geeeez... What was going through my mind when I did THAT?!?!". It feels very much like a drunken stupor or a drug-induced frame of reference. I did stupid stuff, I said stupid stuff. By the time my mind tried to take the wheel back, the heart was already in some kind of weird panic survival mode and had a death grip on the wheel. The mind didn't get to take over again until both came out of intensive care and the car got fixed up.

(Okay, I think I've beat that analogy to death by now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> )

My point is, all things being equal, your XH could very well be a bit of a fog-induced state, but a bad one. This isn't a good-high like a new R. This is a bad one based on fear of loneliness, loss and change. He invested time and money into this GF and as long as there's some thread of hope, he will cling to it. Otherwise, he risks that most dreaded condition - CHANGE. That, and he'll feel like a fool for wasting so much on so little.

Anyway, that's my perspective on it. I don't think that fog is limited to WSs, I just think that we are affected by it in different ways depending on what our current state is. Like with drugs.

If it comes down to a choice 'tween God & Pep .... well hunny there ain't no actual choice .... God wins everytime

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

DING DING DING!

Seabird I think you've hit the nail right on the head!

You could even apply that same sort of thinking to our M and why things were allowed (by both of us) to be so bad for so long before we changed. I was the one who finally got a reality check (daughter's journal) and mustered up the strength to actually DO something about it.

Although there is, IMO a world of difference between clinging to a long-term M with children and trying to save it (particularly when it *was* good to start with), and what he's doing now - grasping at straws with someone who likely didn't share his same motives in the first place.

The fog he's experiencing wasn't an A - but the symptoms are still the same. Bad decisions, illogical decisions, doing things that defy his core values, and continuing to do so even though this process has led to more pain on his part.

I wonder what it will take to lift the fog? My guess is that eventually the GF will find her next victim, and XH will be left there, shaking his head, wondering just what the heck happened? After all, he was so, "in love". They're "soulmates" - he did everything for her (literally)... and sooner or later (I'm surprised it has gone on this long, but not surprised at the progression of events), he'll see clearly and wonder what the heck he was thinking.

As it pertains to his GF, I think that is what will happen sooner or later.

What I don't know, is if once he finally emerges from that, is if he'll see that his family is still here, we still love him and we'd like him to come back home.

JinGA

Thanks, Pep... I'm glad you understand. Although I am filing your good advice away for when I WILL need it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

Forgot to mention that XH never had the "private chat" with DS. I was going to ask him about that today (did not see XH yesterday, our store is closed).. and when he came by today he did a pile of work, we were busy with customers and when he made his getaway I was still slammed with customers.

I'll ask him about private talk with DS tomorrow if I get a chance, and if he can't/won't I guess I'll have to grow a pair and have that "talk" with DS myself.

Still no mention of the "vacation" on his part.

Not much else to report - he was in, did his work and gone in nearly record time. I, as usual, was there 40 minutes past closing time (although it was because my friend stopped in for a crochet lesson!)

JinGA

I recall you saying that you would bring up the vacation subject sometime in the middle of the month if he didn't first. Is that still your plan? I hope so. From the way you talk about him, he seems like he can be rather... enigmatic.

Folks that I've known like that, make logic jumps in their minds and figure the matter is settled to everyone's satisfaction. He might very well reason out something to the effect of, "Told Jin I'm going on vacation, asked if I could take the kids, she said no, so I'm going by myself."

Could be as far as he's concerned, you guys are both on the same page.