Well I'd have assumed so, except he brought it up to the kids again on the weekend. And yes, I'm giving him til the 15th to bring it up, if he doesn't then I will bring it up to him, via email, ONLY as it pertains to the business, and who will cover for him. I also have concerns about his mortgage obligation and will express my concern that I don't want a repeat of last year's debacle that resulted in his check bouncing and a contempt complaint in court, filed by me.

I wish he'd just "get it" that the kids aren't going, and leave it at that - and maybe he will, but the fact that he brought it up again to the kids tells me we're going to go through the same exercise as last year. I'm not going to argue - it's "NO". When we did talk about it briefly, he got my drift that it would likely be no, but we didn't elaborate as I didn't want an argument and that wasn't the best time to talk about it. He hates confrontation - and so do I, but he avoids it more. So he's sweeping it under the rug, and he'll likely bring it up again at the last minute. I need to bring it up sooner than that if he doesn't.

More than likely if I didn't mention a thing, a few days or so before he left, he'd bring it up, and be all surprised and hurt that I am not receptive to their going. Then he pouts, tries for a bit of guilt (which I don't bite) and then he just goes on his own, and eventually he gets over his anger. (That's how it played out last year, when I didn't let them go with him, be dropped off along the way with relatives, with no firm plan on how to get them home again.)

Please don't think I take a "my way or the highway" approach with everything - quite the contrary. I am usually pretty reasonable and I don't mind compromise. EXCEPT where the kids are concerned. I don't apologize to anyone for looking out for them.

If he takes this vacation, he's either going to be:

1) Giddy about planning his "big move" out there - and my kids don't need their nose rubbed in it that their father is moving away, and to be ignored while he is "busy" with his GF and having a good time. In fact they will probably be expected to amuse her kids while they are doing whatever. (Although I don't think this will be the case, but it is possible.)

or

2) GF will be pressuring, begging, pleading for him to drop his entire life and move out there permanently. This will result in a lot of tension/stress and likely fighting between them. My kids don't need that either.

Either way, the "ride home" for my kids would be stressful. They'd either be there in sullen silence, asking themselves how Daddy could be so excited about moving... OR I'd be worried that XH would be upset/despondent that his R is effectively over - since if she won't live here, and he won't move there....

I think scenario #2 is the more likely. I heard XH yesterday when a customer asked him how his work is going (his "real" job...) and XH was glowing... "Excellent! Everything is just great!". Who'd want to leave that?!

I think on some level he knows he's at a stalemate - a dead-end in this relationship, but he's still in denial and won't let it go. I think the vacation might just seal the deal, or at least be another "beginning of the end". It's just going to have to play out - and that's his drama, not mine or the kids'. Let him go alone and sort it out for himself. Nobody else need be involved in it.

Besides - if he is planning his "big move" - he'd best get used to being without his kids. The sooner he learns that, the better.

I'm more at peace with this because I can see the impossibility of that situation. I think he knows it too but isn't willing to admit it just yet. Once it's in his face he'll have to deal with it.

If he refuses to move out there, I think she'll just dump him completely and move on. OR he'll grow a pair and say goodbye himself.

JinGA

Can I be crass? Not to just for the sake of it, but because it's a possibility...

Maybe he's just going to "get some", you know? I hope that doesn't make you upset. But men can be like that. I manage to shock myself at the lengths I will go to for a little SF. Especially if he's gone without for an extended period of time.

I have a buddy who is D'd, single dad, and really, really overweight. He's also not very well put together. IOW, physically not much of a catch. I'm not trying to be ugly - he knows it and jokes about it. He has a lady friend all the way up in Seattle that he goes to see a couple of times of year for just that reason. She doesn't treat him particularly well (besides that one thing), and they're not exactly committed to one another (except that he doesn't have many prospects here anyway). He seems to think that she dates and sees other men, and he's... Not really fine with it, but he accepts it. He doesn't have a choice.

I don't know if that's it or not. I'm just sayin'...

I understand what you're saying. And it may be true to a point. Although my XH is a nice looking man, and if he set out to 'get some' he could certainly find it locally, without much effort.

Way back the first time he went to visit GF, after a couple months of online "romance" - he was actually angry when I didn't jump at the chance to drive him to the airport (!!!!). I was angry and in full LB mode at the time - well it was an unreasonable request, IMO - and he compared it to when he drove me to the airport to go and visit my Mom who winters in Mexico. Ummm not quite the same thing, and I said so. I told him there was a heck of a difference between his doing me a good deed in driving me to the airport to see my MOTHER, versus me driving him to the airport so he could go out and get laid. (See - I usually don't mince words!).

At the risk of being crass myself, if all he wanted was some SF, he'd have saved a lot of money paying a hooker these last couple of years <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

That's not his style though. I do believe he's the kind of man that needs an emotional attachment before having sex with somebody - he's never demonstrated himself any other way that I'm aware of. To my knowledge the only 2 people he's ever had intercourse with, are myself and GF. I am unsure if he was a virgin when we began dating - he would never admit one way or another. If there was anyone else, it was the summer fling he had before he moved to my city, twentysomething years ago (he would have been 19). He did have an EA online - and I don't know for certain if they ever met up but she lived very, very far away. Of course I can't account for every minute of every day since we split up, but it's just not like him - he has his routines and he rarely ever deviates from them. And he's not the sort to just go out and "get some". Socially he can be very shy - which is probably why he used the Internet to find his EA all those years ago, and his current GF. And if I were to bet, I'd bet she found his ad, not the other way around. She's not the sort of woman (physically, socially and geographically) that would typically interest him. In fact, in the past when we've seen similarly outfitted women (clad in trashy clothing and tramp-stamped), walking across the parking lot at our shop, for example, he'd likely have said, "She da HO!". That's why it was such a shocker to see her for the first time - for me all I could think was, "What is he thinking?!"

I'm sure that SF factors into it - but I wouldn't think that's his only goal in driving a 4000-mile round trip. That's a heck of a lot of trouble just for that. He didn't "work" that hard for SF in the marriage (although SF is one of his main needs).

Today when I said my morning prayers, instead of my usual requests to God for help, strength, patience, guidance, and such, I simply asked for help in placing all my problems in God's hands today. Strangely, I feel more at peace. Maybe not so strangely... if I just place it all in God's hands, He will take care of all of it. Maybe that's what I've been seeking all along. I accept that things are what they are, and all things happen for a reason - including this current mess. I'm just going to do my best to let God untangle it and go from there.

JinGA

Well XH has come and gone for the evening. He stayed about an hour and a half. One of our customers is bringing us pizza (we trade for service with him). The customer called unexpectedly so I ordered what I thought XH would like. The food isn't here yet but he asked me to call him when it got here. I'd hoped he'd hang around til it got here (could be anytime between 30 and 90 minutes from now...) I thanked him for what he did here today. I'll call him when the food gets here and he can pick his up. He lives close by, as do I.

He said he was hungry and had a headache - so I didn't ask him to stay. Not pushing things these days.

I did ask him if he'd had "the talk" with DS. He said no not yet. I asked him what his plan was - he said perhaps this weekend. I guess he'd like to take the kids again this weekend then. It's not his usual weekend but I have no problem with it. He'll have them the weekend after also since it's Father's Day. That's OK... I have no plans (hard to plan when I work retail), so he's welcome to all the time he wants with them, and I'm actually kind of glad he is looking for extra. I've never refused him extra time with them unless I have had plans I couldn't change - and I've even cancelled my plans once or twice to accommodate. I'd rather he did spend the time with them.

So another day passes. He wasn't too chatty tonight but we were busy, and he said he wasn't feeling well.

Still sitting tight, making LB deposits when I can - such as thanking him - which I do each night when he leaves.

JinGA

I'm curious about this trading arrangement with the restaurant Jin. Do they have aquariums as part of their decor or something?

Anyway, sounds like you're in a holding pattern. Logjam maybe? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, I wonder if isn't time to start working on a more definitive plan, starting with this vacation of his. That sounds like a good place to benchmark things. Depending on how that goes should be a good indication of whether or not you should start something.

The restaurant owners I trade with have personal tanks at their homes. I trade maintenance service for food credit. Will work for food - literally.

Yep, holding pattern. I don't see much on the horizon until after his vacation. I think that will be the turning point for him. He'll either plan to move (I'll be shocked if he does this) - or he'll finally have his own AHA! moment and realize he's at an impasse. I'm just going to wait and see.

He is going to need alone time to figure himself out, grieve and regroup. Meanwhile I'll stick to my Plan A with the 180.

I'm giving it over to God... and trying hard not to second-guess or stress too much. I'm human, therefore weak and fallible - but I'm trying....

JinGA

There's a third possibility that I'm seeing for some reason... More of the same. He'll come back from this vacation, say very little about it, and continue doing what he's been doing all along. What will you do if that happens?

Yes I suppose that's a possibility. But I do believe it will fizzle sooner or later. How long can 2 people be "happy" with things as they are? 2000 miles apart does not a future make.

Maybe they'll carry on a bit longer, but it will die eventually. It has been a slow, painful death so far (not painful for me - but painful for XH.

If he does carry on with more of the same, I may get bold and make a move, but as it is now, my preference is to just wait until *he* comes to the realization on his own that his current R is and always was, a dead end.

It's funny how most of the statistics here say that most affairs end within 2 years. While XH didn't have an A in this instance, she's definitely the "rebound woman"...and next month it will be 2 years since they first met online. The "math" here is usually right. I know it's not exactly the same, but there are many similarities.

JinGA

I wonder what their respective expectations are. Is she going to expect him to commit to making a move up there to take care of her and her litter? Is he expecting her to throw herself at him because she missed him so much? What would happen if he refuses to commit or move there? What would happen is she decides to suddenly be cool toward him? Funny things happen when expectations have a long time to build, and then aren't consequently met.

Well my crystal ball is out of order <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What XH has told me:

She moved back because she doesn't like living here in this state, not "because of him". (Whatever that's supposed to mean). She has family ties back where she came from, and I don't know who she's staying with now, likely either her father (whom XH doesn't like) or her sister who lives fairly close to her father. I don't think he likes the sister much - XH paid for an emergency trip home for GF at Christmas (father was injured in an accident) and sister was supposed to reimburse, and didn't. So there's already bad blood there too.

I also know from both firsthand experience, and from plenty that XH has told me, that her children have some serious issues, the older one (son) in particular. He stabbed sofa cushions at XH's apartment (my friend saw this when she and her husband brought the beds over to XH's apartment for our kids). He's been in trouble at school for fighting etc. also, and he's not exactly a star student.

My kids just told me that GF has been diagnosed with depression. No surprise there... a year of doing nothing will do that to a person <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

When GF told XH she was moving back, at that time she asked him to move out with her, but he told ME that he wouldn't leave his kids. IMO it shouldn't even be a matter of "choice" and at that time that's how it seemed he saw it.

Then a month later, when I asked him flat out if he was planning to move, he said he's "thinking about it". But again, I led him into that after he announced he couldn't cover for me for a few days because his vacation time was already booked and he had plans to travel out there. I don't really know if he's seriously thinking about it - I haven't seen anything to indiciate he's looking to change jobs - in fact he's spoken extremely positively about his job to both myself and our friends/customers who have asked him how things are going.

Accepting the beds for our kids tells me he's not planning on moving - and he accepted those just a few days after our conversation where I asked him if he was planning a move. Why take 2 more big pieces of furniture he'd only have to move or get rid of in "a few months" if that were the case?

I'm guessing that she's keeping him on the hook because there is still some benefit to her. I'd bet he's still paying for her cell phone, so that's reason to keep being nice. I don't know if he's sending her money, but he has done that before, so IMO as long as there's cash, there's incentive at her end. She likely also knows we're trying to sell the business, and she may see that as dollar signs waiting in the wings too.

As for him - the only "benefit" I can see from this distance is emotional attachment. He's not getting DS (not that he did anyway - my kids and his brother always complained that the place was a disgusting mess), SF, FS or anything else that I can tell, just phone calls and text messages, and perhaps online chat or email or whatever. That still doesn't make for a bright future, not in the long term.

Maybe he hopes she'll move back - but if he really took a practical look at that, unless she was willing/able to work , he'd be back in the financial dumper again. If she took the trouble to move all the way back there just like that, I think it's highly unlikely she's willing to come back to spend another year or whatnot the way she spent the last one.

That's the hardest part in all this - from all that I've seen and what he's told me and the kids and his brother have told me, it's been very one-sided. It's my opinion that he's been and is being, taken advantage of, and he's letting it happen. I feel some anger at both of them - him for allowing it and her for doing it. That has nothing to do with how I feel about him, except that I do feel a bit jealous I suppose, that he's compromised his own well-being and moved heaven and earth to accommodate her (and not in a healthy way, IMO, and not in a way I'd ever ask or expect him to) - and for what? His family should have been worth more to him than this, but we'd have never done that to him.

Ironic I suppose. And it's not something I have any power over - I'm just a spectator but it's painful to see somebody you care about get abused like that, when there's nothing I or anybody else can do about it.

I think he must see it on some level - but it appears that he's not willing to let it go just yet. I can understand both sides of the issue - when I was in a dead-end relationship, I knew it, but I let it go on for a time, then I had my own recto-cranial extraction and made it stop. However I didn't spend money I didn't have or ruin my credit or let my kids do without because of it. I'm a bit smarter than all that - but I can see how people get drawn in - it's intoxicating. It fills the void, for a while. Once reality sets in though, if one is willing to see the reality, it's not pretty.

Once the buzz wears off and the hangover sets in, the hangover is directly proportional to the amount of bad judgement involved I think.

I've done so much reading here - mostly about affairs - and while this wasn't really an affair as such, the way it's playing out is very similar (and admittedly, so was my post-M relationship in certain ways).

If the same "psychology" can be applied (and it has been told to me that it can apply), some WS wake up and want to repair, some don't. Some BS keep the porch light on, and some don't. My light was out for a while, but it came back on. I don't know if my XH will ever turn around and decide to fight for his family and to repair his marriage, or keep moving in another direction.

Once this R of his is over (and I'm sure it will end eventually), time will tell if his heart turns back to me, or not. I'd like to think it's possible since we *are* good friends, I know he cares about me. I'll just have to take it one day at a time.

My friend mentioned there's always the possibility she'll come back - and that is true. I don't know if XH is strong enough to set himself some boundaries this time though - if not he'll likely be back in the same stressful mess he was in for the last year. For his sake, I hope that doesn't happen.

It's really out of my hands. It's not my issue to deal with, except how it pertains to our kids, our business, and my own feelings towards him.

In a way I'm anxious for the next month to be over with because then the vacation will have come and nearly gone, and we'll see what transpires from there. For now it's just a "wait and see" situation.

JinGA

My friend (who knows XH and I... the one whose own XH got taken by an internet golddigger for $43K), just brought up a possibility...

If he goes out there to visit, she may come back with him for a 'vacation' herself! I'd never thought about that (that's what good friends are for - to freak you out!).

After all, GF could dump her kids with whomever she's staying with now (she did that with XH for 6 weeks just a few months ago!) and come back here for a while.

If that happened - our kids likely wouldn't want to go over there, period, and I'd question his sanity for sure.

It's not a good thing to sit and stew on "what if" but being aware of all possible scenarios is good. Guess I'll wait and see on that one too.

Argh!

JinGA

Jin - It might all be part of "letting God". Something like what your friend suggested might be a good indicator for YOU. His potential actions present a number of opportunities for you to set some boundaries IMO. How much harder/longer would you be willing to try and work on things if he pulled that kind of a stunt? Especially in light of what you've told him already.

That's a good question. I haven't told him in plain English that the door is still open to him. I haven't made any serious advances. If he was open to things, he's have realized my statement was a door open, but currently I don't think he's got that kind of vision. More like tunnel vision.

If he moves out there - well then it's done, over with and my kids and I will have to just accept life without him and that's a fact. If he were to return at some later date, I don't know how I'd feel at that time, I'd have to cross that bridge when I came to it. I don't think I could ever turn my back on him if he was in need, but at the same time I wouldn't allow myself to be a doormat either.

If she comes back - well that changes dynamics too - and I will go as dark as I possibly can, within the context of the business and kids. At that point it's too painful to watch. It's painful enough as it is. Once the business is sold, I can go dark - completely dark.

I'm trusting in God right now - He has a plan. I don't know what that plan is, but I feel that for whatever reason He returned *me* to a state of love for my XH, when I thought that could never happen at one point. He must have a purpose in that, so I'm going to give it over to Him and let Him do what He will with XH, and on His time.

When the time comes to make a decision to either move closer to XH, or move farther away, God will let me know.

Meanwhile it's just really hard to wait and see, instead of "what if". It's hard to be so close to him, yet so far away. I totally understand the dynamics of Plan B because it insulates us from having all that painful stuff in our faces and in our hearts.

I do believe that sanity will prevail in some form or another. Time, love and patience.

JinGA

Jin - to paraphrase a line from an old episode of Frasier; "What do you have to do? Install landing lights on the bedspread?"

LOL! I always got a laugh from that. Seriously, I can't imagine how much more you can open the door for him after the "ISLY" comment. We're men and we can be quite dense and quite obtuse at times. But not that obtuse. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Look, this is all doom and gloom speculation anyway. I am trying to learn on my own that there is no money in trying to predict the future. The more time we spend trying to anticipate and prepare for an outcome, the more caught off-guard we are when the real event occurs.


To that end, I think what you're doing is probably the best; sit back and wait and see what happens. I guess that we can only tackle the challenges as God sends them to us (throws them at us?). No use pondering a bunch of maybes when the likely outcome will be something none of us could have ever possibly considered.

You're right. I've been known to drive myself insane on "what if"... and I'm really struggling hard not to do that. I do think there's some personal power in knowing that there are more possible outcomes than the one we "want" - at least realizing that's a possibility can prepare me to not be so shocked if it does come to pass. That's different than worrying about whether it's going to happen or not. Knowing that it might or might not can prepare me to handle whatever. As long as I keep it that way in my own mind.

I'm trying to approach that stuff from that point of view, not really gambling on "what if". Does that make sense? I'd rather be *aware* of different possible eventualities, so I can just deal with it IF it happens... but I'm not going to sit here and torture myself any longer with "what if". If it happens, it happens. I'll deal. If it doesn't, it doesn't. I'll deal.

I can only control what *I* do, how *I* react (or not react).

I'm still carrying on with the modified Plan A with 180. Carrying on doing what I need to do each day. Carrying on making love bank deposits when I can. He's been distant again these last few days, but it could just be because we've been busy when he's here and we haven't had much idle time just to chat. Same situation - he comes in, does what he needs to do and leaves. Last night he came back for the pizza when I called him, zipped in and zipped out. In the last week or so I've had no cause to email him about kids or business - not since the kids' internet debacle. I asked him yesterday about the 'private chat' with DS and he said he'd do it this weekend - so I presume he wants the kids this weekend but he didn't ask. That's OK (I think I mentioned this in last night's posting... sorry for reruns!). I want him to spend as much time as he likes with the kids - that will reinforce their relationship and hopefully make that part of his "choice" a bit more clear.

Ah patience... God is always trying to teach me patience... I don't think I'm a good student at it either - it's really hard to be patient.

As for the ISLY comment I made - if he was feeling a bit angry and defensive at the time (and I think he was by his body language and the look on his face and given our discussion leading up to it) he quite possibly dismissed it. Time will tell. It obviously didn't make a difference in the short term.

I hate waiting, but it seems like it's about all I can do for now.

JinGA

Well, last night was interesting. When XH arrived, a female customer we've known for a long time was in the store. XH has socialized with this customer - last year he brought his GF and ours and GF's kids to a party at the home of this customer and her husband and family. I've always been friendly with them, but have not socialized with them (we've known them since before we split).

The customer had recently been to Disney with her family - all of us talked about the various parks/rides - XH and I took the kids to the Magic Kingdom a few years ago (in fact, this customer and her husband covered the business for us that weekend - that was somewhat disasterous... but I digress)... I've been to several of the parks as I travel to FL on business once or twice a year. XH only came the one time so he's only been to one park. We reminisced a bit about our family trip there (we weren't getting along very well at the time - but we had a chance to make some good memories with the kids, and we took it).

Then later, the customer was talking about a certain friend of hers - and she said, "Well you met her when you came to our barn party". The comment was directed to *both* of us. I did not accompany XH to the barn party - GF did. I just kept my mouth shut. That felt awkward a bit for me, but I kept a poker face and just let the conversation continue without saying anything. I'm not even sure if XH noticed her mistake. Shortly the subject changed - whew. Makes me wonder if this customer/friend even knows that GF is gone? He socializes with them but it's *very* rarely. Still this lady's husband is one of the few friends he has - they just aren't particularly close.

A little bit later, I was busy, and XH could see a customer coming though the store window. "Your BUDDY is coming" he told me. I didn't know who he meant - but I chuckled to myself when the customer appeared.

This particular customer, a man, has been in several times this past week, as he's having problems with his system and he comes in to have his water analyzed and pick up supplies. He and I are friendly - appropriately friendly. He's VERY married, with 4 kids, we just like to chit chat about this and that. He's not unlike many of my customers - plenty hang around to gab about business stuff as well as anything else - sometimes I feel like a bartender or a therapist - people tell me all sorts of things.

Anyway, this gentleman usually comes in about once a week, but lately it's been almost daily or every couple of days - because of the issues he's been having with his system.

I chuckled because of the way XH referred to 'My BUDDY'... I swear I detected a hint of jealousy! He's never referred to anybody else in that way - except perhaps if an exasperating customer is headed my way - but the "here comes your buddy" is more of a warning/heads up and it's said with a different kind of sarcasm. The "buddy" yesterday is not a "challenging" customer - he's a pleasant one, so no "forewarning" was merited.

While XH was in earshot, I made a quip to the customer - I told him I had just the specimen for him, it would only cost "a mortgage payment and a couple of your wife's Coach purses!" He laughed - and XH then knew the man is MARRIED.

XH seemed to relax a bit - in fact I left him in that customer's company to serve another, and I heard him make a joke with him about something else.

Later, we were talking about smoking - none of us smokes anywhere in the presence of our kids... and I asked customer if his wife smokes - he said no, but she knows he does. I joked that it's pretty hard to hide from your spouse, and XH laughed and said no it isn't. I laughed and told him I always knew when he was smoking (I could always smell it on his clothes) he claimed I didn't always know - whatever, I didn't press, I just laughed and the subject changed. Not sure why he'd make a point to be boastful about thinking he was deceiving me... but he didn't make a huge point about it. It doesn't matter now anyway, does it?

My other friends came in (the ones who gave XH the beds for our kids) and he met the husband's son who is having his summer visitation. He's got some psychological and learning issues, but he's a sweet kid - my friends wanted to bring him in because he LOVES fish, and we recently got a huge puffer and he wanted to see it.

XH left the store when "buddy" and my friends were still in the shop. I had a little chuckle with "buddy" and my friend because even "buddy" thought he detected a bit of jealousy - I told "buddy" what XH had said when he saw him coming. We all found it rather amusing.

While I'm sort of glad that XH may have had a little twinge of jealousy (shows he still cares!) - I wanted there to be no mistake that this customer and I are not interested in one another in that way. I consider the customer a friend (I have dozens of customers I consider friends - and I have hundreds of customers) - but friend in the sense that we can chat about stuff when they come in, but I wouldn't contact that person outside of work or otherwise socialize with them outside of work.

It was nice to reminisce about our vacation to Disney. I know he'd probably enjoy other such outings - we've gone to a local amusement park with a group of friends, shortly after we separated. We love to ride roller coasters. I still manage to do this once or twice a year when I travel on business (and I travel alone), but to my knowledge he hasn't done anything like that since shortly after we separated that time. Maybe talking about it will get his wheels turning towards things he wants to do, instead of stagnating like he is doing now.

Today is another day. Yesterday sure was interesting <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

It's an interesting turn of events. I wouldn't ever advocate playing mind games with your XH, ie, purposely making him jealous. But seeing a spark of that is probably a nice signal for you to get. It indicates that there is some interest from him that's not totally accidental. Is that how you feel?

When my W and I were having trouble 2 years ago, my best friend tried to comfort me by saying that if things went totally south, he had no doubt that I would be able to find someone else in short order. That's how he learned to deal with his own heartaches. I shared what he said to my W back then in an effort to make her understand that's NOT what I wanted. She didn't react at the time.

Later on she admitted that it hurt her and made her angry at him for saying such a thing to me. I didn't revel in her pain, but it was nice to know that there was some jealousy - some feeling.

I agree regarding NO mind games. The jealousy bit he came to all on his own - I don't flirt with the customer - we're friends, just as I'm friends with many customers. It just so happens that this fellow has had some problems with his system and has been coming in for water testing and supplies a few times in the last week or so. His problems began last Friday, and hopefully they will be resolved soon.

When I realized that his remark sounded jealous, I took the opportunity to casually mention his wife - so XH would understand without me drawing a picture, that there's no flirting or anything else going on. I don't want to play games. I did it within a good context of the conversation without being obvious <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Good thinking on my feet, I think.

I would never flirt with anyone else with the intention of making him jealous. Totally not my style, and totally disrespectful, IMO.

Another bit of "strategery" that I forgot to mention. When we were talking with the female customer, she was telling us that she'd sent her DD to Europe for several weeks, with the children of the friend she mentioned (the one I didn't meet at the party I didn't attend *g*). Those children travel abroad to see their father (parents are also divorced), and her daughter was invited to go. She was telling us how emotional it was to see her daughter off at the airport - her DD is a bit younger than our younger child.

I mentioned how I wouldn't be able to do that - it would be too much for me. In reality I suppose if I *had* to, I could/would, but XH knows I have a hard time parting with my kids for a trip. A couple of years ago he travelled back home with them to visit his parents and my Mom, and I was brave when they left, but I melted down as soon as they were gone. They'd forgotten something and came back to the house 5 minutes later, to find me all emotional and crying.

I also mentioned in this same conversation, how my friend had to put her daughter on a plane last week for a 2 week visit with her father, out of state, and what a wreck she was. I said that I'd taken her out to dinner that night to help take her mind off it.

GF seemingly had no problem putting her own daughter on a plane for the entire summer last year, and she left them for 6 weeks with XH while she went away. I wasn't necessarily drawing a comparison to that - but I hoped that it gave XH something to think about insofar as if he moved, if he were to see the kids, it would involve either me putting them on that plane - OR, what I'd think was a better idea, him having to come out here to see them. Of course I haven't talked about *that* specifically as it pertains to him - but I think the conversation about how difficult it can be for a parent to let a child go at the airport on a long journey can be very emotional and stressful may give him food for thought as he considers his own future. I have no idea if he's even thinking in those terms - but I am. Hopefully he remembers this conversation at some future point when he's weighing his choices.

JinGA

Jin - I just have to interject on something here. I hope you take this as a constructive... observation, and not necessarily a criticism, because that's how I mean it.

But I sense a dual-layered strategy from you w/re to your XH, and I'm not sure if it's effective or confusing. On the one hand, I read about you using some very subtle tactics with the hope that they'll plant seeds of thought into your XH's mind thinking maybe they'll germinate into something sooner or later.

OTOH, the other day you expressed some concern over whether or not your XH understands and knows your intentions and hopes, despite having said "ISLY", which would be a big fat red flag IMO. If you have doubts about getting the "ISLY" statement, how effective could the subtle stuff be?

Again, not a criticism but an observation. Is this strategy on purpose, or is it seat of the pants? I have to admit that it's a little confusing to me, but then again, my perspective is totally different from your XH's.

I'm not saying that you should change it. I'm just seeking some clarity on your intent. Trying to understand better myself so that I don't make the wrong assumptions or offer advice that's inappropriate to your goals. Do I make sense?

It was totally seat of the pants. I'm not playing games, I promise. I didn't lead the conversations, so that I could sublimimally transmit my ideas - but when they came up, I did choose my words carefully, but *honestly*.

When I noticed that XH seemed jealous of "buddy"... I wanted to send XH a message that this man is NOT a romantic interest. I mentioned his wife in order to let him know that if he had any curiosity as to my relationship with this man, it's strictly as a client who has become a friend. Nothing more, nothing less. Both the client and I know this, and always have. I didn't want anything misconstrued, and since XH showed a bit of jealousy, I wanted to make sure that much was clear, and I did so without making it horribly obvious.

As to the kids/travelling - our female customer initiated that one, and I found myself chiming in my 2 cents without really thinking of it in the bigger picture til well after the fact - but once I did think about it, I was glad that I said what I said - because it's all true.

I wasn't trying to manipulate things, I was simply reacting to what was before me. I didn't draw any direct parallels in the conversation to anything that XH is doing or contemplating - the conversation was just as I described it.

To that end, if I'm being confusing, it's exactly the opposite of what I might have intended.

The ISLY comment from 3 weeks ago, wanting XH not to feel jealous of something he had no need to feel jealous of because I'm not 'looking for anyone', and expressing how difficult it would be to part with my kids for a journey without me, are all part and parcel of the same thing in my mind - so if you're finding it confusing, please elaborate so that going forward, if I'm sending some kind of mixed message, I can avoid doing that in the future.

What I'm trying to do is send a *consistent* message - that the door is still open, and I'm trying to keep doing positive things to show him that. The last thing I want to do is undermine myself - so if you can help me to not do that, I'm all ears.

JinGA