Do you personally have the information you indicate is so illusive? Upon what basis are you issuing directives? What do you know that is not contained in the posts?

I do not think this forum is made up of "Random" anything. Some have been here a long time and have dealt with just about every issue known to man/woman. In point of fact, you show by our post count that you too have been here a long time. As I have learned recently, with fewer posts than you, I am tilting at windmills attempting to give directives to others on what they should say and when.

For whatever it is worth, I asked for information.

Larry

Here is what I know:

Abusers play the sympathy and I will change cards.

Some waywards attempt to further betray their partners as abusers or blow up the details to make it worse than it is for whatever reason.

The abused will often go back to their abuser because of a variety of reasons until they get the help they need.

It is all baloney. And I haven't a clue what is real and what is memorex here. Unless you are an eye witness, neither do you.

Larry

Ah, I see. Thanks for spelling it out. I thought we'd covered certain aspects of what is going on here adequately that that was not an issue.

Here's the deal: I'm all for BH getting whatever anonymous help he wants to, even if it's full of lies and half-truths. That's certainly his choice and I'm not interested in curtailing his right to do that.

Where I have a problem is that he is using this board to further abuse his battered spouse. She was a poster here for many years and developed online friendships with quite a few other women, and now he's using this board to smear her good name, which is sheer torture for someone who is already seeing her life crumble around her for daring to assert her right not to be abused.

If BH had stuck to not giving out her old posting identity here, I'd have no problem with him posting whatever and I'd recuse myself from his threads as someone not appropriate to be posting on his threads.

So if you and whoever else want to go off somewhere private that doesn't involve a public smear campaign against ZP in a place where she is known, and rip her to shreds in private, have at it. My only objection is to you and others making this board into a tool that batterers can use to thwack their prey.

So why are YOU here?

Again...you seem to want to control this entire situation. You're telling us we shouldn't respond...so I assume you must be telling ZP that she shouldn't come here. I fail to understand what YOUR motivation in posting on this forum is at all. Its clearly not intended to help anyone, as evidenced by the constantly snide and cynical attitude...all you've done is tell people to go away.

It makes me question what YOUR involvement in all of this is. You declined to answer when I asked you before where you fit in with all of this...telling.

If you feel that we're all giving information without knowing all the facts, but don't feel that you're in a position to do so without violating a trust with ZP, why aren't you instead asking ZP and BH to share all the facts with us, so that we can assist by providing more informed advice?


Then why are YOU advising ZP or BH of anything? You're no more qualified than any of the rest of us...unless you're a professional counselor...which based on your comments I'm highly inclined to doubt. Based on your statement above, it sounds to me as though perhaps you should be working to remove YOURSELF from their advice chain as well?

ZP/BH...not seen a response from either of ya'll. But I do hope that you're listening to what some of the OTHER people here are saying. Rushing into anything at this point is likely to be risky...far safer to ACT with a plan than REACT without thinking things through.

I haven't seen BH smear her name. He's indicated that she was in an inappropriate online relationship, and sought help with that. Her OP and HERSELF both posted here, indicating and agreeing that their communication was inappropriate.

Where was the smear on her name? She WAS wayward.

The smearing I've seen here has been done by you. You're the one implicating that BH has been lying and being derogatory about ZP. I'd agree we don't know the whole truth...I'd also say that the TRUTH has been withheld equally by both parties. Which would be why we've tried to learn more about the situation.

How has BH 'thwacked his prey' on this board so far? Show me a clear example so I can see what you're referring to.

What is this advice I'm supposedly giving ZP? I'm her friend, not her counselor.

My advice to BH has been pretty much: Deal with the reality of the situation, be really patient, and keep getting professional help. I'll stand by that as pretty much the level of involvement/advice any of here are qualified to give on this one.

this so much reminds me of the Tired_Dad situation ....

they are not one in the same are they?

Hmm, I'm not sure whether to treat this as a legitimate request or not. It *sounds* like one, but since the information is plainly there in a few short threads, and since you've posted to me in ways in the past that made it perfectly clear you didn't read those few short threads carefully first, it's coming across as "if you don't jump through whatever hoops I demand you must be wrong."

Apparently someone didn't get the memo. I suspect that you and I would differ on who that "someone" is.


Except that you are actively trying to discourage others here from commenting in a thread that he started and is now asking for advice on.


I don't understand this take on it. I am pretty sure that I have read all of his threads since he started posting about the same time that I did. I have seen no "smearing" other than exposing his W's admitted EA. All according to understood MB best practices and principles.


Again, as I understand it, exposure is a legitimate method to stopping an affair, no?


So now I am a smearer and a batterer? Or perhaps just an enabler to someone who smears, batters and abuses? All of I have said with regard to any of this is that there isn't enough information about their situation to offer helpful advice. That, and for some reason you seem intent on doing a little bashing and smearing yourself.

Let's be clear here so far.... ZP is apparently the person who has expressed a desire to return home. BH simply asked for advice as to whether or not it's a good idea, and how to respond. Is that not the truth so far? In response, many here have expressed doubts about the wisdom of them getting back together under the same roof.

And for all of that, he is using this board to control and manipulate and further abuse his wife? And our responses are somehow enabling that behavior?

Am I understanding this correctly?

Good heavens I hope not. I'm pretty sure they aren't. Scary.

<blinks>

Um, how is that not obvious? Have you read all his threads carefully? He admits to the recent rape and multiple accounts of battery, but tries to keep the focus on the EA (hers that is -- notice he doesn't talk about his own) instead. And posters have fallen for it.

If you read his threads, you'll see one way that worked was by getting people to encourage him to gain access/control to/of all her communications as much as possible. This is one of the most destructive things anyone can encourage in someone who commits physical violence. Now at the beginning of this thread he's looking for the same again -- hoping posters will legitimize controlling her access to communication via the internet.

So, since you and I are evidently in agreement that this is an obfuscated mess and one for the professionals, what exactly are you objecting to again?

then WHY is she volunteering to return?

don't get it a'tal

I'm not at liberty to discuss what her plans are.

I can suggest that there might be a giant misread going on here. Discussion of one possibility does not constitute agreeing to that possibility.

I have no idea what "Nipples to the wind" means, but I crack up every time I see it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

it is a good'n ain't it !

here:

~~~~Growing up in Texas was where I first heard the expression "nipples to the wind." Southerners have always been big on euphemisms, and frankly I think it is a much more colorful way to say, "head UP, chin OUT! "~~~~

Nipples To The Wind is a play (and a song) .... the quote above is from the playwrite

I have NOT seen the play, but I want to

This may well be. It's also the number one requirement for the rebuilding of trust for ANYONE who's been the victim of infidelity. Which, as a long time poster, you should well know.

How does his access to VIEW her communications place her at risk? If he doesn't have the ability to PREVENT said communication, but has the ability to SEE it to verify that NC is in place and that she's not actively seeking a way to undermine the rebuilding of their relationship? Such as a keylogger?

That way, she CAN send out a cry for help if she needs to...I can't see any other way his access to her communication poses a threat to her.

If there is another way, could you explain wha that is? Thanks.

The implication seems to be that he glossed over his own bad behaviors to highlight hers, is that correct? What I have seen are two other specific threads. One in which he discusses her leaving him, the abuse, his attempts to change, and his requests for help.

I then saw another thread that he started where he discovered her online EA and began to ask for advice on how to stop it. Again, according to MB principles, stopping the EA is instrumental in not just reconciling a marriage (I agree they are nowhere near that stage), but in getting a WS to think logically and clearly about their current circumstances.

I honestly do not believe that he did her any disservice by exposing her EA to this board.

If he had his own EA, I would ask how it applies in this situation. Is it ongoing? Does he maintain ANY contact with that person? Or was it something that occured years ago? And if so, how does it bare on the situation as it stands today. Understand that I am not advocating it be swept under the rug, but is his admission of it here a necessity based on your ideal of "fairness", or because it has real consequences to how BH and ZP move forward in their lives - whether separate or together.


As I understand it, it looked like the boundaries would be mutual. Could such a boundary be as much for her protection as his? Communication via internet is hardly adequite for emergency situations. No one emails 911 afterall. If he was trying to control access to the phone, then I would understand. Furthermore, I would assume that BOTH BH and ZP would have to agree on these boundaries, no? Nobody is putting a gun to her back and trying to frog march her back to their trailer.


You assume a lot. While I agree that professionals should be involved (and it sounds like they are - from his IC to DCS), I also CLEARLY stated my belief that this forum has real value as well.

I would like to make a final observation and appeal. It's been my honest attempt to ask questions and engage in an open and honest manner. But I would like to point out that the tone and manner of some of your replies seem both judgemental and disrespectful. Expressing incredulity and confusion towards others' seeming inability to get where you are at, is an attempt to control IMO. Ergo, "If I treat him like an idiot whenever he says or asks that, he will stop saying or asking that."

Seabird,

Wow...you nailed down what I was perceiving into words I didn't have. Thank you.

LA

I'm lost as to what you're saying in this section of your post.

The quote above, for example -- it sounds like a reply to *something*, and is posted in reply to me, but I can't recall anyone either saying that exposing her EA was bad or that you thought it was. So what are you getting at?


It's an issue because he attempted to use it to control her behavior -- "I'm attracted elsewhere, so you'd better do what I want." It's part of an ongoing pattern of control behaviors.


Um, how exactly?


Well that did a beautiful job of playing right into what a domestic abuser trying to manipulate you would like to hear you say. You've got an apparent unspoken presumption going there that limiting non-emergency communications and using that to cut the prey off from her friends/family/support is not a problem.


Um, yeah? You lost me again. Did someone say otherwise? That doesn't change that feeding a batterer's notion that his control tactics are reasonable may make it more likely he will continue them and even perhaps attempt to use force to apply them, since he has in the past.


Ah. If that's what you choose to read into it, it comes from you, not me. There is a lot of real, not fake, incredulity going on over here at how little care in applying MB principles has gone on in these threads at times. And I am truly and sincerely puzzled over what you're getting at in spots. If you want to perceive real bafflement as fake, I can't help you with that.

Again, how is VIEWING her access to this communication cutting her off from them?

What about her rebuilding trust after her EA?

There are a number of 'issues' here on both sides...just as you didn't feel that it was fair that he 'gloss over' the abuse, I think that you are attempting to gloss over her inappropriate communications and wayward behavior.

There are TWO sets of 'crossed boundaries' here...not one. The allegations that you're throwing about rape and abuse are obviously major...infidelity is a major issue as well.

Question...if you feel that this whole situation is so fearsome...why haven't you contacted the police and reported the violence and rape yourself? Perhaps ZP has asked you not to...but don't you have a moral obligation to do so, if you're aware of the crime? For that matter, don't you have a legal obligation to do so?

I don't get your role in all of this still...I've never seen someone take the tack that you have...bluntly you're fighting more than ZP is...which again makes me suspect some kind of ulterior motive. What's the REAL situation here?