Mebe - not at all sure what you are trying to say.

God didn't inspire any translation. What was inspired were the original autographs. Translations strive to be as faithful as possible to translating the original text languages into whatever language it is being translated into, so as to preserve the meaning of the word. Footnotes are often used to expand when there are additional thoughts to be considered when a word is used. "Love," for example, in the English language is how several different words, all meaning a type of love that is being discussed, is used. Context and the intended meaning that prompted the original word choice are what determines what "type" of love is being discussed.

Taking the Lord's name in vain, for example, is not (imho) the same thing as what is referred to as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. But if you really want to have a discussion about that unforgivable sin, we could do so, but I'd suggest a separate thread for that.




There isn't any "magic 8 ball" needed. The Scripture is very clear what the fate of anyone who does not receive Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior is. They may be roasting marshmallows, but the camp they will be roasting them in, along with themselves, is hardly a "pleasant place."

I also think that sometimes God reaches out to such as these in the moments before death enabling them to accept Him and hence go to heaven.

BK - it goes without saying that God CAN reach out and change the heart of someone so that they can accept Christ. That is what election is all about.

But there is no indication that such a thing occurred in this instance of this young girl, nor in the lives of the ones who stoned her to death (though that may yet happen for some of them).

It is similar in some respects to the two thieves who were crucified alongside of Jesus. It was the "hour of their death" and their "last chance." One accepted Christ and one continued to reject Him. One is in heaven today and one is in he11 today.

What this tragic circumstances shows, yet again, is that no one is guaranteed there will a tomorrow for them and they need to choose Christ today. We don't know who the elect are, so all we can do is proclaim the Good News and plant the seeds that God can use in reconciling people from every nation and land to Himself.

What I described is something FH that no one would necessarily "see"

Okay so has this been resolved? Please say yes.

Now let me throw myself out for yet more ridicule here.

I will start by saying that what was shown was barbaric. The practice is horrific. It is ingrained in the culture. Is the West simply more enlightened? My belief is yes but then that is just my belief.

But every single time this type of issue comes up, invariably we revert to anglopomorphism - that is thinking that every other person on the planet should believe as we do. Can't you see they believe that same way about us? They think WE are wrong. China. About 1/5th of the world's population more or less? What is the primary religion there? India not far behind and working to catch up. Primary religion there? Islam. Fastest growing religion on the planet. Pretty much covers the Middle East, Africa and Southeast Asia. Not a good thing from my POV but a fact nevertheless.

So why is it we act so surprised that all these people can't see it the way we do? I'm not defending them. But I do live with them. They are largely very nice people.

Oh and I don't agree with what happened to that girl.

Agreed.

All we really have to "go on" is what the Scripture clearly states is the only way to be saved and to be in heaven after our death.

It is similar to the biblical story about the man in he11 who was pleading with Christ to send someone to warn his brothers.

The "danger" in the idea that we can't necessarily "see" that someone has accepted Christ on their "deathbed" is that it can engender a type of "complacency" about having to make a choice for Christ while one has the capacity to make that choice, for others who may read of "wishes," well intended notwithstanding, that someone "might" be in heaven who had not evidenced any acceptance of Christ.

BK.... while I believe that the path to salvation is through Christ, I do not believe as FH does. I do not think that Christ would turn away from a child like this...her only exposure to Christianity was likely very negative. From the time she was born she most likely has been exposed to one very strict religion... and given those likely facts I do not feel this child would have had the opportunity to accept salvation. She most likely never rejected the Living God...she was just probably not exposed to Him in a way that would have afforded her a real choice. It is these people that I believe with all my heart that our Lord comes to in their hour of need, those who have not heard through not fault of their own.

And FH, you have not evidenced any acceptance of Christ....you have spoken of it. There is no evidence to be had. I would personally think an innocent child like this will have more of an opportunity to have fellowship with the Lord than someone that uses Christianity like a weapon against those that do not agree with his interpretation of Scripture.

MEDC

No one, at least here on this system or in the "West," "agrees with" what happened to that girl.

The issue that was brought up, though, was not about "niceness" of people, it was the theological question of how one "gains entry" into heaven. We all "wish" for peace on earth and treating others as we would like to be treated ourselves.

In addition, the issue was raised about what, if anything, can be done about a "mindset" or a "religious belief" that thinks that "honor killings" are okay and that Sharia Law should be the governing law of the entire world, and who are seeking to make that desire become a reality.

Some "sins" can be ignored, overlooked, and forgiven without any need for a "responsive" reaction. Other "sins," however, are serious, pervasive, and destructive to many others. The question will always "when" and "how" should those potentially (or actual) evils be confronted both verbally and with force?

In the context of MB, it's not a lot different from adultery. That is a sin that NEEDS confronting and not ignoring. It IS destructive. So is the concept in America of "irreconcilable differences" and "disposable marriages." The effects of adultery are far reaching, beyond just the husband and wife, despite claims that others won't be adversely affected, such as claims by a Wayward Spouse that "the kids will be just fine with a divorce and my adultery because I am just doing what makes me happy."




Yes, I can, and I think we all can. The issue becomes one of "divergent opinions" though. The reality is that either both opinions are wrong, or one of the opinions is right, but NOT that both can be simultaneously right.

Freedom is one of those "issues." Who we are ultimately responsible to is another of those "issues." Christianity versus Islam (or other religious beliefs) is yet another of the "issues." "Proselitizing" in Islamic ruled countries often carries with it the death penalty whereas in America and most other "Western" countries, freedom of religion is the rule.

And I don't think anyone is going to ridicule you for your opinions, either. My guess is that you probably wouldn't, though, say to other Muslims "in country" that you think "Honor Killings" are barbaric and wrong, an offense against God, a breaking of the "thou shalt not kill" Commandment, either. Why you might restrain yourself from saying such things may be out of respect for their religious beliefs or it may be out of fear for what they truly are capable of doing with anyone who "dares" to disagree with their beliefs.

All that we are saying is that you are right. Those religious faiths are huge, but for the most part it is Islam that is out to "take over the world" and "put to death anyone who would disagree with them."

Again, the silence of the "largely nice people" of Islamic faith is the "silence of consent." That is, or should be, ihmo, very disturbing to all freedom loving people the world over.

God bless.

MEDC - you are entitled to your opinion and your judgmental attitude.




That would seem patently obvious. So, in your opinion and your belief, how does one gain salvation for their soul and what Scriptural reference do you have to support "any other way" to be reconciled with God, or is it all just your "opinion?"

MEDC...I can't agree with you more. The above exactly describes my own POV about this too.

Unlike you FH... I and most others can actually hold a discussion without quoting Scripture... we take what we have learned...and apply it... we don't need to be a textbook junkie to prove we are in fact intelligent. My opinion is based on faith FH.... you remember that right... it is also based on what I have learned in Church (remember that FH, fellowship with other believers!).. and it is based on the feelings and thoughts that the Living God has put into my heart and mind. You might want to try using yours once and a while... you will find that Scripture is good for a lot more than just appearing learned.

I have seen a lot of Christian's on this site question your faith FH. Perhaps it is time for you to step back and ask yourself why that might be. As for me, I have wasted too much time on you. Wait, let me see if I can find a scriptural reference for that thought...hmmm, none comes to mind right now FH...so, I will just say that I have had more than enough of your antics. Now, hopefully, my words won't put you into one of your little tantrums and have you threaten for about the 1000th time that you are leaving these boards.

And ftr, I did not say that there was another way to salvation... what I said was, it is my belief that the Lord comes to those that have not been given an opportunity to accept Him through no fault of their own. Much the same as He makes accomidations for children that have not reached an age of consent.

Suzet_ - God is quite capable of having mercy on whomever He wishes to have mercy. God is also true to Himself and to what He has revealed to us in the Scriptures. God will not change because we might wish things were different.

So is it "possible" that this tragic young girl is in heaven? Yes it is. But given the circumstances that we know and given what God has said in His Word, there is significant reason to think that she is not in heaven, as distasteful that is to us and as distasteful as that is to God, who wishes that no one should perish.

Romans 2:12-16 speaks to this issue.

"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing them, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."


In the case of someone raised a Muslim, they are taught the Koran. The Koran acknowledges Jesus, but not as the Son of God. There are few, if any, in the Muslim world who have not heard of Jesus or the Gospel Message of WHO Jesus is and WHY He came to live, die, and be resurrected from the dead. Christ is so rejected in the Islamic world that people are killed, or marked for death, if they "convert" from Islam to Christianity. We tend to judge "fairness" by human standards of what "we would do if we were God," but God judges according to His own standards, and He sent Jesus into the world as the ONLY way by which anyone can be forgiven of their sins and reconciled to Him as His adopted child.

When MEDC writes: "her only exposure to Christianity was likely very negative. From the time she was born she most likely has been exposed to one very strict religion... and given those likely facts I do not feel this child would have had the opportunity to accept salvation. She most likely never rejected the Living God...she was just probably not exposed to Him in a way that would have afforded her a real choice," He is probably right. That did not stop her from "going against" her religion and beliefs. If the "Living God" of Islam is the same "Living God" of Christianity, then the Koran clearly teaches that Jesus is not the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity. What this girl was "exposed" to or not regarding Jesus Christ would certainly be a function of her Islamic upbringing. But regardless of that upbringing, God DOES have many people from all nations that He has elected to come to Him regardless of their past. Paul himself, the author of Romans, is but one example of someone who believed in the "Living God," and yet was lost and remained condemned to he11 by refusing to accept Jesus Christ while he was Saul, despite all that he did to "live strictly according to the Law." It took God's intervention, choosing Saul and creating Paul, softening his heart so that he would accept Jesus. The truth of the Gospel message is simply that it is "by grace you have been saved, not of works, lest any one should boast."

I think of the state of the world and what people were taught prior to the Flood. Surely there were many people who would fit MEDC's reasoning here, but God found "no excuse" there and destroyed all but 8 people.

So while I agree that it is "possible" that this young girl is in heaven, would even like to believe that she is because I don't like the idea that anyone would spend eternity in he11, and would certainly not restrict God's ability to have mercy on her, it does not seem to be consistent with His revealed will in Scripture or His provision of the only way that anyone can be saved. That is precisely why God has commanded us to "go into all the world" to spread the message of the Gospel.

God bless.

Nope, no "tantrum" as you call it. MEDC has spoken and MEDC has judged. That should end all discussion.

Nevermind the Word of God, MEDC is sufficient. Nevermind that "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

MEDC has spoken. The Scripture is unimportant when differences arise between believers.

I forgive you your judgmentalism anyway MEDC.

I frequent a Muslim discussion forum to find out more. When I mention this issue I get "Catholic priests abusing children" thrown in my face.



Bob, I do the same thing. Visiting Muslim sites, monitoring and occasionally posting. Care to share site information?

FH... you are a master at manipulation. You truly are a sad, sad "man." I never said all discussion should end... just my discussion with you FH... seems you run into that problem frequently on these boards though. Lots of people have tired of your antics. For me... you are worthy of ignoring from this point forward.

That's okay MEDC. I still forgive you. Nice "discussion" you were attempting with me, though.

The last I checked, there is very little in the Bible that directly addresses all the complexities of modern life.

Where's the scripture talking about how much TV I can watch?
Where's the scripture that talks about whether or not spam email is a sin?
Where's the scripture that talks about precisely where a hem line becomes indecent and a sin?
Where's the scripture that says if unmarried phone sex is sinful?

Of course a magic eight ball would be helpful! God has not come down and revised the bible everytime the culture changed; and while many of the messages of the bible are still clear, still other sections are phrased in the language of the time.

How would would God have us handle the complexities of radical Islam being intermixed with peaceful Islam?

Or.... Lets take an easy one! What exactly is pre-martial sex? The act itself obviously, what about petting? kissing? hand-holding? Where's "God's manual to proscriptions to pre-martial relations?"

You like to quote scripture. Which if these says if third base is OK? What about second base? I'm unmarried and touch my date's breasts, are we sinning?

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

1 Cor 5:1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

1 Cor 6:13-18 You say, “Food was made for the stomach, and the stomach for food.” (This is true, though someday God will do away with both of them.) But you can’t say that our bodies were made for sexual immorality. They were made for the Lord, and the Lord cares about our bodies. And God will raise us from the dead by his power, just as he raised our Lord from the dead. Don’t you realize that your bodies are actually parts of Christ? Should a man take his body, which is part of Christ, and join it to a prostitute? Never! And don’t you realize that if a man joins himself to a prostitute, he becomes one body with her? For the Scriptures say, “The two are united into one.” But the person who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with him. Run from sexual sin! No other sin so clearly affects the body as this one does. For sexual immorality is a sin against your own body

Magic 8 ball for the win baby. I'd love some more specific answers now and again.

Okay, Mebe, let's talk first about some of the "messages that are clear," and then if you'd like we could spend some time on things that you don't think are so clear.

Let's begin first with who you think Jesus Christ is.

The premise here is quite clear from a biblical perspective, but that doesn't mean it's your perspective.

The questions you raised we can talk about, but what does it matter what the Bible may say or not say about anything if the central clear point of the Bible, how a person may be saved and the only way that God established to be saved, is incorrect?

Let me put it the way the Bible says it; "If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power." (1 Cor.15:12-24, emphasis added)

It would seem that whatever the Bible may say, clear or not so clear, would be irrelevant if God is not God and Jesus is not who He says He is and who the Scripture says He is.

So questions about TV, dress length, etc. would first depend upon who IS Sovereign in one's life, don't you think?
They may make interesting discussion, even interesting disagreements of opinions, but they really don't matter until the "first" question about Jesus Christ is answered, wouldn't you agree?

No.

Starting with the understanding that the word of God and Jesus are the path to salvation, there is a huge gap between parts of life in todays world and the teachings of the bible. TV, second base, radical islam -- looking to the bible for guidance does not yield specifics and I maintain that the magic eight ball to God would make it all a lot clearer.

Does God want us to torture radical islamic folks for terror information or turn the other cheek?
Does God more want me to spend time helping the poor or telling women not to have an abortion?
Is God OK with my buying a $20k car instead of a $15k car and giving $5k to the poor?

I'm happy for you that you have no such questions, but for my part, I struggle with what God wants and don't always find that the Bible answers all my questions.

Praying is good, but am I sure that God is speaking and not just me? Because I hear $20k car, torture radical islamists and excoriate abortion rather than help the poor.

I'd love to have the magic eight ball. Life following God's will would be way easier, and while I completely recognize that no such device exists, I'm amazed you have such certainty of God's opinion that you don't think it would be handy on one occasion or another.

Ditto here too.

I could make a few comments too about FH, but why? It just keeps fueling the fire and keeps this thread going in a direction in which it was NOT intended. As far as I could tell, Believer started it to just express her sadness and disgust over what she saw. I can understand that. I CANNOT understand how it got turned into something about salvation, Christianity, even comments about the RCC.

Sad how that happens, and gives a bad name to Christians...most people don't want this stuff crammed down their throats, and it only serves to push them further away from Christianity AND Jesus Christ. Best to lead them to Him through example, and not by overzealous preaching....or even questions "posed" as preaching.

Just my $.02 worth.