First of all I want to ask if you guys have ever had any kind of therapy? I think Who should definitely make this one of her conditions to staying in this M. Not just MC but IC as wellm for both of you. Skirm obviously is very derespectful of woman in general not just to his W. I am sure this is not something that just started either.

Who needs IC to understand why she feels she doesn't deserve better than a man for a H that has no respect for women. Skirm needs to find out why he has so little respect for the opposite sex and why he cares so little for himself that he continues to do these self destructive things.

Secondly I have to say if you had not had your earlier indescetions I would only see what you did as innapropriate and disrespectful but because of your W mentality I would definitely say that you really haven't grown from your first experince with hurting your poor wife.

I feel really sorry for her. Since you think what you did was so harmless, I would like for you to close your eyes and imagine that it was you who intercepted this email that your W had wrote to a friend to try and get OM's email address. Then try the same logic you did to try and justify your behavior for her that you used for yourself and tell me if you still think it's ok?

WhoMe I am sorry for your pain but I can see more of this to come unless he gets some help. So you need to decided if you want to stick around and continue your punishment or if you want to go. If you ask me right now staying doesn't seem like it holds much hope unless he honestly makes some serious changes. Just my .02

A big thank you to everyone here for your very well thought out and heartfelt responses. I want to clarify one thing, and that is that I asked Skirmisher to come here and be completely honest to the letter on what he had done and hear from someone other than me just how serious and completely wrong he had done was. He actually thought that I was overreacting because he didn't follow-up with an email. The one he sent to his friend was in April.

None of you let me down even a tiny bit. I truly don't know if I will continue in this marriage, but I can tell you that before I even give it a moment of consideration, the first condition is that Skirmisher set up an appointment with Dr. Harley for IC. We tried MC more than three years ago, but I see now that we were unable to effectively fix our marriage, because Skirmisher needs IC first.

For what its worth, you all opened his eyes as wide as can be. While it may be too late for us, he still needs to fix what is seriously wrong with him. FWIW, I know why he is broken, he has spent his entire life walking in the shadow of his younger brother and trying to win just a smidge of love from either of his parents.

Please keep me in your prayers, because I am hurting bad right now.

Who

skirmisher...

I'd really like to see you "man-up" here and be honest with yourself and WhoMe...


This was most definitely a HUGE betrayal...Can you now admit this was a betrayal skirmisher? If so, have you said this to WhoMe? Please understand that not doing so is EXTREMELY painful, as it is OBVIOUS to anyone with a brain that it was a betrayal...Not admitting it will not make it any less true...It takes a big man to become humble and own all his "stuff"...I'd like to see you do that...Integrity feels good...

I really see you as trying to appear "cool" in the eyes of your buddy-At the expense of your wife!!! Can you see how immature and wrong that is? High school is OVER...Talking about how "fine" the "popular chicks" are is SOOOO...1987, yanno? And I get this skirmisher, I really do...My own affair was with my old high school/college boyfriend...I know what it's like to try and go back, and seriously, take my word for it, it can't be done...You end up hurting so many people, including yourself in trying to do that...Not to mention looking like a big old fool in the process...What did you learn about yourself after your affair? What in you allowed you to choose to cheat?

And I know that you say that you didn't email either of the women...OKAY...Fair Enough...But let's get REAL honest, shall we? Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that you hadn't emailed either of those women YET? That you were still entertaining the thought of doing so somewhere in your mind? Time to get RADICALLY HONEST skirmisher...You can't fix what you won't acknowledge...I'd say that you were gonna email them at some point...I'd also say that you would have been HUGELY flattered if they would have emailed back-I'll even bet that you think that you could have handled that-nothing would come of it except a little ego boost for yourself, right? The problem is that, (1) That is a NO NO for a married man-MAJOR DISRESPECTFUL to your wife, and (2) that "little ego boost" becomes addictive almost immediately...and you need more, so you take it up a notch, with a few more emails...and they become more personal...then come phone calls...then meeting for drinks...Temptation is seductive as he[i][/i]ll!!! skirmisher, you MUST recognize your weakness to this kind of "ego boost" and you MUST protect those weaknesses...Just like an alcoholic must protect their weakness to alcohol, KWIM?

You know, marriage is not a commitment to never being tempted, rather, it is a commitment to keep yourself from situations that will most certainly tempt you...You are HUMAN...Dr. Harley says that "we would all have affairs under certain conditions. And none of us would have affairs under other conditions. That's why none of us can be trusted and all of us can be trusted. It depends on the environment we find ourselves in" (put ourselves in)...Can you now see that you were failing to protect your weaknesses and setting yourself up to cheat? It's just NUTS to put yourself to that kind of test, not to mention the fact that doing so puts your wife squarely in harm's way...

skirmisher, if you want to save your marriage, it is time for you to step up and LEAD THIS RECOVERY-I believe that doing so will show WhoMe that you are very serious about changing yourself and becoming the best husband that you can be-right now you are not demonstrating yourself to be "marriage material"-you get that, right? You should be on the phone TODAY making an appointment with Steve Harley-Here's the link to the Coaching Center ...Further, you should be making plans to attend the next Marriage Builders Weekend...We just attended last weekend...It's INCREDIBLE...It will show you both just how to go about making your marriage a relationship of EXTRAORDINARY care, as that IS what marriage is intended to be...Will you do both of these things skirmisher? If so, when? If not, why not?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts, and specifically your answers to my questions in bold...

Rooting for "Team WhoMe/Skirmisher",

Mrs. W

(((WhoMe)))...

I didn't see your post before I posted my last one...Just wanted to let you know that I've really had the two of you on my mind today...Continued prayers going up for you!

Can you please let skirmisher know that I've posted to him and would very much like him to answer my questions...

I sincerely hope that he will "man-up" and the two of you will be able to save your marriage...A recovered marriage is very worth the effort...As I told him in my prior post, we just attended a Marriage Builders Weekend...It was so awesome...I KNOW that the two of you would benefit greatly by doing the same...

Hang in there!

Mrs. W

ETA: P.S. Let him know that I was tough on him because I care...It has been the 2x4s that I've received here that have helped me the most...I wish the same for him...

Skirm,

I'm echoing what others have said. Your wife isn't over-reacting, isn't overly sensitive.

I want to share with you why long-term MC is important...I'm not sure it's stressed enough here...not unreasonable to have MC for the entire time of recovery...two years. This was my experience, and it's becoming clearer why...and why MC can help greatly even while you're in a wayward state of mind...

Two days before my WH recommitted to working on our marriage, he took pictures which included OW...and when I realized he had taken the camera to a company function...I downloaded them to see if he'd really done this...and he did. There they were...

Now, I'm not comparing apples and oranges for what you did. When I read your first post, I heard my MC's voice in my head, from when my WH told our MC what he'd done...pointing out that he didn't put the pictures on our home computer, that I had done it.

I don't want you to miss the point here, Skirm...

MC turned to my H and said, "Why didn't you just punch her in the head when you walked in the door last night? That would have been more humane. Stop punching your wife in the head, got it?"

Shocking...because that's what emotional abuse is...you may think all this in your mind...your chosen perception and perspective...and not say it...then you it comes out in your post...your own self-deceptions...which is not choosing to protect your marital boundaries again...and the DJs to your wife...like a very subtle blaming/assuming viewpoint...and in the email, you hit your wife in the head.

You did.

Had you responded to your friend's question..."I screwed up again last night, four years after nearly losing my marriage. I didn't mind my marital boundaries at the reuion. I acted single and loose, entitled. When my DW finally got through my fog, we left. Even then, she had to decide, I only offered to reluctantly do so.

I need you to be a friend to my marriage. I need real ones right now...who can point out when I'm damaging the woman I love the most by taking a temporary dive into false flattery. What could have been a night of cherishing my wife, showing her off...admiring her authentically in front of my old classmates...as the incredible treasure she is...I did what I do and went for fantasy, not reality."

When you can only think of sending that kind of email, you will be recovered. When you catch your own fog, what its made of, and how you punched your BW, the woman who chose to not divorce you (which is reasonable) over your choices four years...when you consider THAT totally stunning...then you will awake to reality and be amazed at quickly you can step back into a wayward mindset, which is why your marriage may be already over.

Four years and you didn't get to the basic ingredients...your own choices...all the stuff which changes our beliefs and changes our lives...so you can thrive...and if you did once, you forgot...consider the formula, get real help and increase your awareness. No one will buy you punching your BW's head in your sleep. Wake up.

LA

MRS W.

Thanks so much. What Skirmisher did was inexcusable in every way and I really do believe that seeing it as such and so consistently pointed out by so many has had a profound impact on him.

You are absolutely correct that he has huge self esteem issues. I was stunned by his email and saw right off that he was trying to present himself to his friend as the big dog. I was never the jealous type and didn't have a melt down at merely seeing the two women. In fact, I don't even recall seeing one of them. In my opinion, the one was nice looking at best.

I have stressed to him, that my reaction was not to how anyone looked, but to how rude he was by not introducing me and ultimately turning completely away from me. I posted on this incident shortly after it occurred because I was greatly affected by it. I have struggled with recovery in the worst way possible to the point that I am certain many here think I am a negative pain in the drain, and now I have two choices, give up and admit that I wasted the past 3.5 years, or start all over.

Everyone here was at their best swinging those old 2X4's. I knew what was coming when I convinced him to be completely honest and it has had the desired result of really opening his eyes about how serious this damage is and that the moment of revenge he achieved has put us back to 2003. I guess the only positive things are that he wants to get IC, and he has finally came to MB to read and post. Tis a bit of light at a very dark time.

Who

WhoMe-So, are you going to say "I told you so?", or are you going to address the issue. I'm fairly confident that Skirmisher got the message. I'm also fairly confident that the reunion and the e-mail did not go the way he planned. Just posting the e-mail on this sight tells me that he feels some remorse. Recovering from an A requires that we change our relationship, but it is not a one time change. It is a process of continually checking and adjusting. You both have more work to do, and this presents a good oppertunity to move forward.

Skirmisher,

All I can add is: <WHAP!> (HeadSlap)

Mark

WhoMe,

You said you convinced him to be honest and post here...

Is that true? Or did he choose to be honest...which is why he's in charge of opening his own eyes...

I believe you urged and offered...because so much here has felt eye-opening to you over the years...I have no doubt he allows your influence. I wanted him to see where his own choices will change his life...no one can really convince another person.

LA

losinit,

No I didn't say it, and I'm not going to. Of course we both have responsibility for the the state of our marriage and failed recovery. I do believe that he feels remorse. My expectation was that he would finally see that this was a major set back for us and that it wasn't just whome being overly sensitive.

We are at a fork in the road here and if he can not understand or accept the damage done and why, then I do know which direction I will take. I understand better than anyone here the dynamics of what he did and why. He did it because he was very angry for having his evening cut short and then being made to feel like a whipped pup by his friend for leaving early.

He reacted to the situation by implying that he was smitten and desiring to begin corresponding with these women, one whom he admits not knowing or even talking to.

I totally agree with lovinganyway that this is not the kind of friend he should or can have if he wants to be married to me or anyone else. I can only feel pity for this guys wife as I suspect she has no idea that her H has a wayward mindset that if it goes unchecked will lead to an affair if it hasn't already.

I did ask Skirmisher if he admired people who were unfaithful, did he see it as something that was OK under any circumstance. And of course, he said he found this behavior reprehensible. For the first time, I think he actually saw that it doesn't have to be a PA to cause damage. When he posted, he really did believe that because he didn't actually follow-up on the email he had done nothing very wrong. He might still be holding on to a bit of that even now. We'll see when he has time to check out the forum tonight.

Who

-emphasis mine

WhoMe...

I think it is a VERY big deal that he has come to read and post at MB...I hope he will stay...Mr. W and I have long thought that reading and posting here ought to be a condition of marital recovery...We feel that way because this place was so very instrumental in the clearing of my own fog...I fully credit this forum with showing me the way out of the wayward mindset...It's where I regained my lost empathy...When I first came here to read, I would be horrified and outraged at some of the things I read that WSs were subjecting their BSs to...And yet I still didn't fully connect the dots right away...Finally I began to see that I had done those same things to Mr. W...ME...I was one of those horrifying creatures that visited holy he[i][/i]ll upon another human being that I professed to love...It was a shock to my system, but when I got it, I REALLY got it and it profoundly changed me...More than any IC ever had...This place is a Godsend...It has many times allowed for Mr. W and I to dicuss problems in the third person and then apply the solutions that we came up with or read about to our own lives...What an amazing resource this is...A real blessing...

I truly hope that skirmisher will stick around, and that you both will be able to fully benefit from all that is offered here...You know, skirmisher could make a real difference around these parts once he gets it...There are not very many FWHs posting here, and yet their input is so very valuable...I believe that he could become a real asset here-helping others will also help his self esteem-the benefits are numerous...Additionally, I believe that being here will help him to become the best husband that he can be...

The logic behind the MB program is just overwhelming...All it will take for skirmisher is a DESIRE to change and a COMMITMENT to learning and applying the MB principles...It is not an unmanagable load...I have confidence that he can do it...I sincerely hope that he will call Steve Harley...I firmly believe that will be the BEST decision for both of you...

Mrs. W

LA,


Your assessment is better worded that mine and correct. When I first came here, I was absolutely amazed at despite the differences in age, gender, etc. BS's all had pretty much the same feelings, and the WS's acted pretty much the same, nothing special or unique.


Who

Very sorry, Who. It sounds like you are handling it appropriately. I wish I had more to offer other than to hope that it is residual fog and not something more serious.

Whome and Skirmee,

""I was stunned by his email and saw right off that he was trying to present himself to his friend as the big dog.""

This is how I took the email at first, the big studly GUY talkin' the GUY talk to another GUY. But come on...this was GUY speak in HIGH SCHOOL!!

If a married GUY started spouting off this load of immature bullpoop to me, I would definately be thinking this GUY is a low life sleaze ball. Next thing you know he will be getting out his measuring tape to compare things.

Skirmee, re-read this email. Is this how you want your friends to view you? If yes, you gotta get some new friends.

IMHO

WhoMe,

When you get to the point when you have had it, when you can calmly say you are not living this way anymore, then your husband has a choice -- continue to play games, continue to see where the line might be between what you might unhappily tolerate and what will tip you over the edge to leaving him -- then he might change.

From my experience of five years of this, I got to the point where I had had it, where I could look forward five more years to Groundhog Day over and over and over again, and I had finally had it. I was calm. I wasn't angry. I wasn't threatening.

You need to change because he's happy with where he is and he seems to think you are the problem since you are the one with the "meltdown". The person who is unhappy is the one who is motivated to change.

Bless his heart -- Lemonman suggested I look back to older posts of mine to see that nothing has changed, over and over and over. He was right -- nothing had changed. And why should it? My husband has said to me "I'm not the problem. You are." And from what I see of your husband's post, that's exactly what he believes. You're overreacting. Why should he change if he thinks you're overreacting?

Cherished

[threadjack]

OMG, that sounds just like my W's state of mind (though I was never a WH).

Would you mind chiming in here too please?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0&fpart=1

Thanks and sorry for the jack.

[/threadjack]

WhoMe

Id like to apologize if my comments were in anyway hurtful to you. I have been thinking about you all day and hope you are doing ok.

I finally understand your old sig line. Im not sure how you could possibly heal until Mr Who gets some help.

All my best to you

Wanted to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread for their contributions; nice to get some constructive direction in addition to the 2 x 4s. It is all good, however, and just reading that certain kinds of behavior are destructive can be surprisingly helpful in making it sink in. Words are powerful.

Need to figure out how to move forward at this point. In the process of scheduling some IC for myself and, at some point after that, my wife and I will get into some MC together. Also looking at one of the seminars. Any other suggestions would be appreciated. Lots of relevant experience here.

Skirmisher,

You have a unique oppotunity right now to make your marriage better. Don't waste it.
You have been given a gift, albeit hard to swallow!
Look inside yourself now, and realize what you have done.
WhoMe has once again (hopefully), given you the oppotunity to have it all! Try not to let it slip away. You will probably not get another chance! IMOHO!
Best to you both!

PGA

skirmisher...

Would you mind answering the bolded questions in my previous to you please? Answering some tough questions honestly will help you in this process...I've been a professional bullchit artist myself, so I do recognize one when I see 'em...Nice words are, well, nice and all, but I rather see you swim in the deep end of the pool...I have confidence that you can do it...How 'bout givin' it a shot?

Be blunt and brutally honest, it's the best chance you have at saving your marriage...Don't make me scream "DEJA MOO" at you, alright? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W