Has anyone read this book? What do you think of it?

Gottman's "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work"

Page 36 - About "flooding" (Actually, it in a section called "Body Language" which describes the physiological aspects of flooding, or percieved threat in general).

Recurring episodes of flooding lead to divorce for 2 reasons.
First, they signal that at least one partner feels severe emotional distress when dealing with the other. Second, the physical sensations of feeling flooded - the increased heart rate, sweating, and so on - make it virtually impossible to have a productive, problem-solving discussion. When your body goes into overdrive during an argument, it is responding to a very primitive alarm system. All those distressful reactions, like a pounding heart and sweating, occur because on a fundamental level our body percieves your current situation as dangerous.
When a pounding heart and all the other physical stress reactions happen in the midst of a discussion with your mate, the consequences are disastrous. Your ability to process information is reduced, meaning it's harder to pay attention to what your partner is saying. Creative problem solving goes out the window. You're left with the most reflexive, least intellectually sophisticated responses in your repertoire: to fight (act critical, contemptuous, or defensive) or flee (stonewall). Any chance of resolving the issue is gone. Most likely, the discussion will just worsen the situation.


I've finished reading this book and am now going back to outline and do the work it suggests. Unless someone has argument that Gottman is offbase.

His description feels very vivid to me. I feel like I experience it in almost all of our conversations. "The Four Horseman" took up residence in our marriage a long time ago and still run rampant. Maybe even before marriage. I know I am guilty of all, but tend to see myself being more defensive and stonewalling than the others.

I think I will cease trying to have "discussion" once this stuff kicks in. I believe it has caused a ton of problems that may not have surfaced, had we recognized it wasn't a good time to problem solve or explore feelings.

I have found it incredibly difficult....near imposible....to avoid getting defensive. I always thought it was natural to defend ones position. I see now that it's an attempt to reverse blame. I am going to get better at recognizing this and removing it.

I think it may be difficult to distinguish between disagreement and defensiveness though. Does anyone have any suggestions that might make that easier?

yes, I suggest you and mopey get into marriage coaching with Steve Harley and learn how to use Marriage Builders principles. If you could both learn how to stop lovebusting and meet each others needs, you could have a GREAT marriage that is very fulfilling. Implementing his principles would solve this problem.

I understand what you're saying in general, but don't get how it helps me determine the difference. Ultimately, it would be great to not have to worry about it. It's something I can do to make myself better at building a relationship though.

One of the things I am supposed to do is listen to her express her hurt to me any time she feels the need. I tend to get defensive and want to learn how not to.

She's still very angry with me and feels that expressing that will help her heal.

WS, I think that you both need to learn how to express your thoughts and feelings in a way that does not cause defensiveness or pain. So, instead of determining the difference, which I think will just escalate her fury if you "cease trying to have discussion," I think you both would benefit from learning how to communicate without anger, without lovebusters. Her anger is a lovebuster and does not help your marriage heal.

I saved this article but I didn't save the link - I am pretty sure it is a Dr. Harley article though. I thought it was interesting:

One of the reasons I'm not so keen on dredging up the past as a part of therapy is that it brings up memories that carry resentment along with them. If I'm not careful, a single counseling session can open up such a can of worms that the presenting problem gets lost in a flood of new and painful memories. If the goal of therapy is to "resolve" every past issue, that seems to me to be a good way to keep people coming for therapy for the rest of their lives. That's because it's an insurmountable goal. We simply cannot resolve everything that's ever bothered us.

Instead, I tend to focus my attention on the present and the future, because they are what we can all do something about. The past is over and done with. Why waste our effort on the past when the future is upon us. Granted, it's useful to learn lessons from the past, but if we dwell on the past, we take our eyes off the future which can lead to disaster.

I personally believe that therapy should focus most attention, not on the past, but on ways to make the future sensational. And when a spouse comes to me with unresolved feelings of resentment about something their spouse did in the past, I tend to put it on hold and focus on issues that prevent mistakes of the past from recurring. I ask them to trust my judgment, and see what happens to the resentment when the marriage has a chance to become fulfilling. In almost every case, resentment fades, as I predicted. While the painful memories are not entirely forgotten, the most recent marital experiences which are fulfilling and enjoyable, dominate a person's thinking, and resentment becomes weak and infrequent.

Recovery may not be complete

Resentment usually appears when an experience of the present reminds us of a painful experience of the past. For example, if a wife had been abandoned by her husband after a fight on a vacation, left to find her way home alone from Jamaica, the resentment of that experience would pop up whenever her husband walks out the door during an argument. Very often, continuing resentment means that whatever it was that caused the painful experience is still lurking in the background. And it jumps out every once in a while when evidence of it's existence surfaces.

The procedure for recovery that I suggest usually eliminates the root causes of infidelity, and that makes it unlikely that present experiences will remind a spouse of experiences associated with an affair. If the only time you feel resentment about a spouse's past affair is when your needs have not been met, when your spouse is engaged in a Love Buster, or when the Policy of Joint Agreement or Policy of Radical Honesty has not been followed, then it's the completion of recovery that's your problem, not resentment.

Using resentment as a way to control and punish a spouse
I'm convinced that what's kept the resentment of S.R.'s husband alive for so many years is that he has found it to be an effective way to control and punish her whenever she doesn't do what he wants. Whenever they have a fight, he brings it up, and it causes her such guilt that it gives him a decided advantage in winning the argument.

By this time, I don't believe that her affair is the problem that she thinks it is. Instead, it is an issue that her husband is using to get the upper hand in his relationship with her. It probably shows up the most whenever she has been reluctant to have sex with him. It throws her off balance whenever he mentions it, and makes her feel guilty, wanting to make it up to him somehow. He may also bring it up whenever she is winning in a power struggle he is having with her.

What she describes to me in her letter is abuse, pure and simple. There is no excuse for the way her husband keeps bringing up her moment of weakness she experienced years ago. He is disrespectful and abusive.

I suggest that she look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you want me to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? If the answers to any of those questions is 'yes' you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"

What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."

To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. You must never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, especially by the man I love."

My advice to her husband is to never mention her affair again. It's a good example of one of the enemies of good conversation, dwelling on past mistakes. Whenever you keep bringing up your spouses past mistakes, you not only make your conversations incredibly unpleasant, but it cannot possibly lead to a resolution of a conflict you may be discussing. And as soon as his resentment doesn't pay him any dividends -- no longer helps him get his way -- he will find that it hardly ever occurs to him.

Hanging on to an unpleasant thought because it helps us somehow is what psychologists call "secondary gain." It means that even though the thought is unpleasant, it gets you something you need, so your mind keeps it around for its usefulness. There are many unpleasant thoughts that have this characteristic, and I have helped many people let them go by helping them destroy the usefulness of the thought. Making sure that S.K.'s husband never gets what he wants by bringing up her affair will help him overcome his resentment.

Thanks for posting this. It's been a while since I've read it.

Part of it is very similar to what my IC said today.

Thanks for your wise words (IMO). It may be irrelevant now. She just told me she wants a divorce. I will be leaving tomorrow.

Whats going on?

She will have to go into further explaination, if she chooses.

I wouldn't say we have really worked on making our marriage better. Her anger towards me and the way I respond to that has prevented most of it.

I've gotten to the point I have reached in the past, where I don't respond positively to her abusive outbursts. I just shutdown or push back.

I agree with your observations on the other thread.

Will you please call Steve Harley and get some help? She is in terrible pain and needs your support in managing this. She also needs your reassurance that you love her and want to be married to her. Leaving is not the answer. That will cause further damage.

I am as tired of her abusiveness as she is of my closed emotions. My emotions will stay closed while the abuse continues, as my feelings are frequently used against me when angry. I've learned that a few times.

My IC told me I needed to set boundaries today. The setting of that would most likely have resulted in seperation/divorce anyway, as she views it as her right to say pretty much anything she wants about anything affair/relationship related when she's angry. Unfortunately, the part about limiting that to short periods of time was disagreeable to her. I was able to listen to her vent frequently, but after a while, it become too much. Our typical "discussions" last 2-6 hours. Discussions being defined primarily by her expressions of disgust/anger/unhappiness with me.

The other night she flipped over furniture, knocked paintings off walls, and almost hit me. In addition to the verbal assault. She later told me she felt bad that she "had to do that to get my attention".

This is not new. This is a part of the cycle we have been living for around 15 years. I have no intention of continuing the cycle.

I've refrained from posting something like this in the past, because it would cause her to become angry. I have been told several times to sit and "take it like a man".

The threat of seperation/divorce has been used frequently. That threat is no longer scary.

I know I love her and will miss her terribly. I will not miss the controlling, manipulative, abusive behavior though.

For the record, the latest outburst of hers was not ordinary. It was probably the worst I've seen. Typically, it's only verbal.

We've decided to continue our marriage and have started the process for scheduling an appointment with the Harley's.

I'm very happy about this and believe we can break through the barriers we've accumulated.

Thanks for your help and concern. It's nice to know there are folks around with heartfelt desire to see marriage flourish.

WS,

I can relate a lot to your situation. I have also read this book. A solution to flooding that has really worked for me is to simply honestly state that I am too emotionally excited to continue the conversation, and that I'd like to return to it in 20 minutes. This takes away the aggressive conotations that shutting down (flooding) tends to present itself with. However, you need to be willing to walk away after making a statement like this, because if your W is anything like mine, she'll find some way to see this as an attack on her. Just be honest with yourself about what you need and communicate it - whether she sees it as valid or not.

I have heard the "had to do that to get my attention" bit too - usually something along the lines of "I have to act like this in order to get a response from you". I find it striking that she's trying so hard to connect with you emotionally. I think she has some expectations of what connection looks like that you are not meeting. Perhaps you can find some way to address this specifically - you can acknowledge her feelings and her perception of the sources of these feelings at the same time as establishing boundaries for how you tolerate their expression.

One other comment I have about the "closed emotions" thing. This is clearly a defense mechanism for you, and defense mechanisms play a large role in the breakdown of relationships. In the end, the hurt that you protect yourself from by being emotionally closed is a small fraction of the hurt you open yourself up to when a relationship your life is built around it shattered. I recommend a book called "Emotional Availibility" (I don't remember the author's name right now) - it give some insight into personality types and methods of change and growth. If for no other reason, I think you would personally benefit from incorporating some of these techniques into your life - it has changed the way I connect with people for the positive whether it has helped my marriage or not.

You don't have to tolerate abuse, whether you want to save your marriage or not.

Thanks Muddle. I'll take a look at that book.

I believe I want to stop being closed emotionally as much as she wants to get rid of angry outbursts. These are both things we learned through FOO. Changing lifelong patterns isn't easy, but I am convinced well worth the effort.

Muddle,

Is it possibly called - "Emotional Unavailability: Recognizing it, Understanding it, and Avoiding it's Trap?"

Paperback by C.Collins

Wind - please go to the first link in my sig line, print out the article, read it, and give a copy to your wife. I think you will recognize both yourself and your wife in the article.

Your passive/aggressive controlling behaviour (and you ARE controlling her) is driving your wife screaming insane. Please read that article and if/when you talk to Dr. Harley, be sure to mention that you are both passive/aggressive and a gaslighter (look up the term "gaslighting" on a Google search.)

You sound EXACTLY like my WH. You use the worst forms of passive/aggressive and gaslighting behaviour on your wife, and when she finally loses it from the torment and frustration you simply sigh and claim that YOU are the poor poor abused victim and SHE needs help.

Take a look at that article. Make sure your wife sees it, too. I think you will be amazed at how transparent you really are.
Mulan

That's the one.

Mulan,

I have read this article and will read it again. I'm pretty sure my wife has too. I've read the PA thread as well.

I've exhibited some of the behaviors listed, some not. I certainly don't want to be that way and will bring it up in counseling.

It's pretty disturbing to me to hear you say I am doing the worst of what I've heard/read. I've read many of your posts and thought "I wasn't that bad". I know I don't want to be doing what's been described. I'll treat this as something to place at top priority for my current IC and tell the Harley counselor.

This certainly puts a different spin on things. A difficult pill to swallow.

WS

I wanted to share my own experiences with you in the hopes that it will help you.

Prior to my H's A - the interaction between my H and myself closely resembles what you describe. I would try to talk to my H about an issue, he would get defensive and shut down and my personality would get bigger and bigger, in a desperate effort to be heard. I would threaten divorce. I would yell and scream and generally have a tantrum. Once, I event slapped my H. All of these things, Im not proud of.

My H would go completely silent, ignore me or walk out on me. It was a horrible dynamic.

1 1/2 yrs later - none of that behavior - for either of us - continues. If I have something I need to discuss - he listens. I do not get angry, blaming or start shouting anymore. The transformation is incredible.

It was hard. I had to realize that the ONLY way my H would ever open up and allow me to be heard and not run away was for me to create an enviroment where he felt safe to do so. He had to realize that he needed to stay engage and not react to triggers.

Today, if we discuss conflictual issues - and either one of us starts to trigger, before we go down that route, we stop and tell the other person we are triggering, what we think it is about and what we need in order to feel safe to continue.

Somehow this works for us. For the first time in years, we are able to communicate and not just sweep issues under the rug.

All of this stopped when I decided I was no longer going to play the game that was so familiar. I wasnt going to buy into the whole PA thing. I simply stepped off that bus and since then , it actually works.