Mrs. W,


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I won't speak of these others. They, like you, have made choices based on how they've trained themselves to think. I have adopted other beliefs in hopes they would help me avoid those things that don't work in my life.
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I, myself, have said it a million times. "I will never have an EA or PA." I know for a fact that I am not in the group highest at risk to become wayward. It would cause me too much personal, internal damage. It would violate a serious value I have.
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I will never feel entitled to have an A because I know, no matter what, I play a role in what happens to me. I will never feel the victim therefore I will never feel entitled to behave like one. Do you see the beauty in that statement? I would never feel trapped nor would I feel the need for vengence. Do you see how this belief I have makes me a stronger, healthier person? Do you see how preaching that belief could help many a person who thought about becoming a WS?
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If my M had issues I would most definitely feel sadness and anger and disappointment. And because of that I would seek first to fix what is pushing me away from my M. And if those efforts failed I would, more than likely, pack it in. Try again with someone else once my M had ended. Ended as in legally ended ... divorced.
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I wouldn't want to be with someone who would want to have an A with me. It speaks volumes to me about their character and their values. How could I ever trust someone like that? Having trust is EXTREMELY important to me. I'm sure it is to nearly everyone.
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On the flip side of the A monster:
My W knows I'm doing everything I can to make our M a strong, happy and healthy one. She knows that I provide a safe place for her to come to to discuss any and all issues concerning our M. That doesn't mean she always comes forth with everything but she knows she has the option should she decide she needs to.
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Because of that I would probably leave my W should she decide to have an A. She would have to do some pretty serious convincing to get me to change my mind. I would have a hard time ever trusting her again.
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I, myself, wouldn't feel the victim if she decided to stray. I would realize there were reasons why she decided to make that choice (poor as it was). Maybe we just weren't very compatible or mabe our values changed over time or .....
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Just because I don't feel victimized doesn't mean she gets a 'get out of jail free card'. That doesn't mean she doesn't suffer the consequences of her actions.
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I'll leave you with this. These beliefs that I've acquired have come from a professional counseling service. They are affiliated with a schooling system for troubled teens. One of my nieces who was a straight 'A' student became self-destructive around the time she turned 16. After many attempts to get her help my sister and BIL could no longer trust that they could protect her from herself. They feared she would succeed in her next suicide attempt. They found this school system where she was sent away.
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As a part of the schooling the parents are asked to participate in weekend seminars where they learn the same principles the children are learning. That way when the kids return home everyone is on the same page. These seminars are open to the public. My father went in support of his Granddaughter, daughter and son-in-law. He was so impressed by what he learned he paid the way of several of our family members (myself included) and offered to pay for a dozen or so more than that.
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This system has changed our family's lives. Those of us that have participated have found new ways to communicate. We've become a less dysfunctional family (trust me there was dysfunction) and we're closer than we've ever been.
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For me it was this system that changed my life. From there I learned to became more proactive in dealing with my own issues. There was/is some conflict in my M which is what lead me to MB. And being here has only enhanced what I learned in those seminars.
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There's that ... for what it's worth.

I have learned to address his most important needs and if mine go unattended, I can live with that.

I would have to actively "seek" an affair partner, since one couldn't slip up on me due to circumstance.

Well of course it would be ridiculous of me to believe that just saying those words are enought to keep me from having an A. In order to avoid having one I must be aware at all times of that very possibility.
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[color:"blue"] At least you are acknowledging it is a "possibility". [/color]
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My plan is to follow and use some, but not all, of the principles of this site, literature, MC and IC (when it was and is necessary), Life Coaching and the tools I learned from the counseling seminars.
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I use the PORH and the POJA.
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I don't follow the policy of not having opposite sex friends.
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Your example of a co-worker ... well while she doesn't look like an old high-school sweetheart she does sit just a couple feet from me. She's here right now watching me type this. I have counseled her for a couple years now. She's leaving her BF of 10+ years. They attended the seminars per my suggestion. He has huge victim issues from his FOO.
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[color:"blue"] You have counselled HER. Mmmmm, maybe your plan could include a rule where you don't counsel or coach single women, let alone the single woman sitting right next to you daily at work. Further, what business of yours is her BF's FOO issues??? I say...nunya, unless HE comes to you for coaching. Way to personal [/color]
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Her and I have had very personal discussions. And those discussions I've shared openly and honestly with my W.
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[color:"blue"] Radically??? Your wife then is trusting you too much or just utilizing it as a rationalization and justification for her own independent risky behavior. Marriage is a relationship of EXTRAORDINARY CARE. You're not being very careful and neither is your wife. [/color]
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I've asked if she's comfortable with it and she has given me permission to help so long as she's kept in the loop.
She's aware of what goes on and she trusts me.
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[color:"blue"] I was completely in the loop of my wife's friendship with OM, until my snooping revealled I wasn't. In fact, your wife's blind trust is an example of lack of proper care. She shouldn't allow you to "coach" this woman. [/color]
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Oh if it makes any difference my W readily admits she's insecure and has jealousy issues. But she trusts me and I make sure I don't violate that trust.
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[color:"blue"] If you really want to make sure you don't violate than I think it would be prudent of you to review your plan to maintain your fidelity and affair proof your marriage. I think it's begets an adjustment [/color]
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My M, while good, still has it issues. SF is infrequent. We still have unresolved issues like how many children we're going to have. I'm still working on developing a healthier Taker (over-giver by nature). Sometimes we don't communicate as well as we should.
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[color:"blue"] Been there (except the SF part <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />). I'm a 9 and my wifes a 22 on the taker side (MB test given a the seminar). Over 20 is considered a high taker by the Harley's that would then need extra counseling to get them to buy into the POJA concept as their takers don't want to let them do it. FOO issues have nothing to do with being taker. Dr. Harley believes it's genetic. I don't seek to "develope a healthier taker" because my taker score is lower than Mrs. W. I learn to live with the one I've got and see that I live in balance. I hope you're not hanging out with the woman at the office when your taker decides to grab for himself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> [/color]
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I'm vulnerable to an A. I know that. I'm aware of the times I'm upset in my M and I have thoughts of other women. I'm not sticking my head in the sand. I'm quite aware of Harley's theory on how As start. As you can see I flirt with his theory. I'm quite aware that IT could happen to me. I use that awareness to 'check' in with myself.
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[color:"blue"]Good, that's the greatest thing about MB to me. It, by itself, is keeping me accountable, alert and aware of all my interactions.
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I do have a question. This paragraph really seems to back off your statement on the other thread that you just wouldn't have an affair. You admit your vulnerable. You've thought of other women at times, but yet, simply your "awareness" is relied upon to avoid it...with stated certainty, forever. Why make the statement?
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Like I said...you can't PROVE a value today. You can state it. You can live it, but it's not proven until you're done living it. [/color]
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I'm saying that I educate and I practice my values everyday so that I make myself healthier and stronger so that I will never, ever succumb to an A. I'm not powerless over this vulnerability. Sure it could happen but I'm doing things on a regular basis to ensure it doesn't. One of the most important things I'm learning to do is communicate more with my W about my unhappiness.
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[color:"blue"] That is great [/color]
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These are the things I know:
- I am not a victim.
- There is no right or wrong ... only what works and what doesn't work.
- I have what I intended.
- There are no accidents.
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[color:"blue"] I believe there is right and wrong but we're not discussing that here [/color]
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90% of everything we do on a daily basis comes from our subconscious. It is my job to bring some of the important parts of that 90% up to my conscious mind. Practice, practice, practice. Work, work, work.
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As I see it it's a matter of what a person wants most.
- Do I want my needs to be met the most or do I wish to live by my values more than anything?
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[color:"blue"] What needs of yours ARE already being met coaching this girl at the office??? If you're working together your already have a lovebank account...why risk accumulating deposits??? Where is the payoff FOR YOU???
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I believe "living by your values more than anything" would include extricating yourself from such an entangle friendship with a single woman. I've got plenty of female friends. They are friends of both Mrs. W and I, even though many of them started as my friends back in my single 20's. They are mostly all married now and we get together with all the kids from time to time. I do not spend "alone" time with them and if they needed help they would come discuss it with BOTH Mrs. W and I. I have also to a LARGE extent eliminated all personal discussions with our female employees are our businesses. I used to "help" them with their family and boyfriend situations even if just by listening. I don't anymore and I call/discuss with Mrs. W the extent that I still do...I'm not rude to them so I still hear some of that stuff. [/color]
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- What do I cherish most, getting some SF and affection or being a great H, a great father, a great person?
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[color:"blue"] A great H wouldn't lifecoach a single co-worker.
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To be sure, I'm not being critical. I'm/we're not perfect but we are working this stuff too. I'm just getting at the limitations of your plan as it stands today. I don't think you're horrible...but perhaps you and your wife can sit down and discuss alternatives:
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Maybe you help/coach your co-worker together. It appears to be a activity you desire to participate in...why not make it a recreational compansionship thing.
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Does your wife have full access to your email??? Do you talk to this woman outside the office? Text messaging??? Does wife have access to your voice mail???
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Extraordinary Care...that's all.
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forgot to mention...pretty uncanny how I nailed the example huh?. We're you looking around the office for me? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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Dr. Harley, ............With that short background (the affair with the original guy began in September 2001...the last confirmed time together was September 2006), I wanted to ask you about how a BS gets this mess out of his head!

My wife is acting like she is totally behind reconciling and building a new marriage. She says she wants to do all of the homework and to build a life together. And so far, she has been doing most of the things needed to build our love. We even found out two weeks ago that she is pregnant with our fourth child.

But, my wife was a SAHM who worked in the church. She told me on our wedding day that there was no such thing as divorce. She told me that there was no way she could ever be with another man so many times over the 8 1/2 years of our marriage (pre-affair).

I understand the reason we got into this. I do! I also understand the principles behind what we need to do to have the marriage we wanted.

The issue is in MY head right now. I look at her sometimes, and she asks me "what's wrong?" And I cant tell her. And what is wrong is that I look at her in these times and wonder "who am I with?" The woman I knew believed in fidelity. The woman I see was capable of 4 partners in a year! And she saw no problem with that. She would even say that God was helping her move on (of course, that couldnt be possible...God didnt want her to commit adultery with these four guys).

As I said, I understood the first guy...the one in Florida. I had not been the husband I should have been and she was ripe for an affair. I understand the addiction and the fog. But...why the three more guys this past summer and fall? And then...falling on the heels of her Florida trip and being with the last guy...she begins to call me and to ask me out to talk.

What changed? How in the world can one person go from being a Christian wife and mother, to having an affair, to sleeping around with several guys...to trying to reconcile with her husband?

And most importantly...how do I know what happened? How do I know that she believes in fidelity again? How do I know that she believes that what she did was wrong (because, her response to the one I know about...she doesnt know I know about the other two, or about the Fla trip with the otiginal OM...her response is that "our marriage was over.")? Of course, it wasnt over. But she called me her "ex" to these guys and to her friends.

Mortarman: In my writings and lectures I emphasize the fact that we would all have affairs under certain conditions. And none of us would have affairs under other conditions. That's why none of us can be trusted and all of us can be trusted. It depends on the environment we find ourselves in. Your wife found herself in an environment where affairs were irresistible to her. She had to have been impressed with how it all simply came over her, in spite of her philosophy of life that strongly rejects unfaithfulness in marriage. She is probably still wondering how it could have happened. Many think it's demons that take over for a while. Some even think it's God. But it's neither of those. It's our predispositions.

The reason I focus attention on the conditions that make an affair possible is that if your wife continues to live in the environment that led to her affairs, she will continue to have affairs. Intent and commitment have far less impact on our behavior than we think. The "extraordinary precautions" that I talk so much about do more to protect us from affairs than any system of beliefs because those precautions simply make affairs impossible (never have a friend of the opposite sex, never separate from your spouse overnight, live a life of transparency, don't discuss personal problems with someone of the opposite sex, etc.). Your wife got caught up in a lifestyle that made affairs irresistible to her, in spite of the fact that it violated all of her moral standards. I see examples of that phenomenon almost every day of the week.......

Dr. Harley, Thanks for responding. I have read all of this, and I agree wholeheartedly with what you have found! It is a big reason why I have been on these boards for so long...because everyone needs to get all of this. And I am happy to spread the news!

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The second issue is me. God knows the conditions were more than set for me to go out and have my own affair. Or more than one. Before we were married, if anyone would have said it was my wife, rather than me, that would have done all of this...anyone that knew us would have called them a liar. I was the one that all that knew us would say was the "dog" and would have crossed the line. But I didnt.

And, aside from my faith and not wanting to disappoint God...I am hard pressed to understand why I didnt. Or why I continued to pursue my wife. Or why I allowed her back this last fall, after we had already gone to court and I was already on the move towards a new life.

If these conditions lead to this...why didnt it hit me? Why did I not give in and do it? I am sure my love bank was completely depleted...I was hurt...and she definitely wasnt filling it. And I had many opportunities. I guess I am just trying to understand why a woman that supposedly had such a high moral code ended up like she did...and why an "ex-dog" didnt.....

Mortarman: A person's moral convictions are not necessarily defined in the way they express them. I know of many who say nothing, yet remain faithful throughout life, and others who swear up and down that they would never stray, and yet they do. Morality is a moving target for most of us -- we are not consistent in our values, even when we state them with apparent conviction and certainty. In your wife's case, we have to assume that her stated moral standards differed considerably from those that she actually lived by.

As you and your wife restore your marriage, and come to know each other much more intimately, I'm sure that you will discover that her definition of morality shifts with her environment. This may shock you at first, and cause you to lose all trust in her. But it's this reality that will help you both create the conditions that prevent her from having another affair. You both now know that she can't be trusted with other men. So she must limit her male relationships to you -- you are the only man that she can have as a friend. It's possible that one of the reasons that you have avoided an affair throughout life is that you are aware of your limitations, and have created social barriers to keep you from crossing that line. She must do the same if your marriage is to survive.

Ok, how many others of you out there raised your eyebrows when you read this?

have a different situation than a lot of women. I don't work, I now stay with my H, he has SF any time day or night when he wants it, I keep his house as a show place, I keep my self well groomed and interesting to him.