It seems to me, that there are quite a few questions that have been raised about when or if marriages that began as affairs are ever "legitimate" as well as whether this board is an appropriate place to give any advice to those marriages. These are philosophical questions, and coming to a definitive agreement about these things....would be akin to finding one religion we're all willing to practice.

But let's say that we could reach such an agreement....let's say we decide that the current safeguards (of moderation and ignore functions) are not enough, and we all came to an agreement (or at least a majority consensus) to form a separate board where people in affair marriages could get help without being on the same board as vulnerable BSs. It still wouldn't matter....it's not our forum and we don't have the power to create such a board.

That doesn't mean we're powerless.

We do have the power to write to the founder of the board, appeal to the moderators, and request such a thing and if there are enough people who support it and we ask consistently....maybe it could happen. That's a positive and realistic way to approach the issue...and we wouldn't even need an agreement from everyone...just enough concerned members. Further....approaching this way....creates the least harm and the most good.

The negative approach (which is not solution oriented) and is the one too often practiced....is to harass, insult, degrade, and discourage not only the hapless poster who admits to an affair marriage, but anyone who is even willing to help discuss with that person WHY a marriage that began as an affair is so much more likely to fall prey to the same fate, or what steps he/she might take to make compensation for past mistakes and move forward so more children do not suffer.

This negative approach is not only unlikely to create a solution....but it creates more harm. Good people who are betrayed spouses themselves are being attacked and harmed just because they don't want to participate in that kind of approach. The board is disrupted, and rather than look for solutions to further protecting our members...members attack other members. It does the exact opposite of what it argues should be done....protect our members and promote good discussions on our board.

I understand the arguments about encouraging waywards or discouraging the betrayed, but I myself don't find anything very encouraging to a WS (or very painful to a BS) in a story where a WS married their affair partner only to end up where Zog did!....cheated on himself! How does that encourage a WS? To know that what he does will almost assuredly be done to him is "encouraging"? How does it discourage a BS to know that retribution knows no time limit? Or that one day, should his/her WS actually marry the affair partner---they will one day know the suffering she/he felt? I can certainly see how a long lasting affair marriage could be discouraging....but there is a bigger karma picture here....and that pictue can be seen as very affirming.

As a BS, I find great solace (and justice) in that story.....much like if I were raped....I might see some justice in knowing my rapist....was also raped....and that karma had come full circle. Most of us as BSs have very little power to exact retribution should our worst nightmare come true (our WS marries their affair partner), but it's good to know that these statistics we spout are valid and that there is some justice afterall when someone arrives here as a new victim of their own folly. No one is safe from the threat of infidelity....and that is especially true of people in affair marriages. When they become betrayed themselves.....like a rapist who is raped....the perpetrator who becomes a victim of his own crime....God has given a great opportunity for humility, repentence, growth and grace.

I have never argued the "legitimacy" of A-marriage, anymore than I would argue the legitimacy of crime. However, I do think both criminals and cheaters are helped by people everyday who are good people, who don't support or seek to legitimize crime or affairs. And I don't think that sinners are not welcome in church.

The kind of help is relevent.

Irresponsible help....which would sanction crime or affairs, aid, abet, deny or ignore it's harmfulness, is not the only form of help there is. I would consider "responsible help" for either a criminal or a cheater....would be help that recognizes and brings to bear the harmfulness of the past, as well as helps someone design a plan for the future that creates no more harm.

I don't want to silence any good people, because as the saying goes "Evil thrives where good men stand silent"....but I think that there are good people who are speaking out on both sides of the issue about HOW we deal with people who come here in a fallen state.

Exactly. . .

Larry

Star

How does that encourage a WS?

You don't think a 27 year A-marriage legitimised by MB vets is encouraging to a WS ?

Star*fish, those are some good points to ponder...

In my sig line, I note that I was a WS (ONS) many years ago. When I registered here, I still received an immense amount of help. NOT ONE person ever referred to my Wayward status years ago, and told me I "got what I deserved" nor any other negative comments. I'm pretty sure if I were skewered repeatedly for an act I committed way in the past, I would not still be posting here. And, once again, thank all of you who responded to my first chaotic posts and led me down the path towards recovery!

With that said...I have responded to posts from both BS's and WS's. I have often thought how ODD, even sickly IRONIC it would be if the OP in my FWW's life were to post, and I would unwittingly respond and try to offer help. Even if it were way after the fact, and he decided after wrecking yet another marriage, it was time to seek assistance.

Many of you saw the movie "Pay it Forward". These boards have been a blessing to many, and there are many opportunities to "Pay it Back" for the help we have received. Sometimes there are people who post that they are "considering" infidelity, and we can then "Pay it Forward" if we are able to post information that will make someone think twice before committing infidelity.

Although this is not a "religion", it is not unlike a "church", where people feel they can go and get help. For many, it proves to be a horrible experience, as people here can respond in very judgemental ways, perhaps based on their own life-experiences, that brought them here. BS's seem to be the most sensitive, especially when a WS shows up, for whatever reason. There tend to be way too many (IMHO) scathing responses, even before their story fully unfolds. Even if help is offered, when it is mixed with spiteful attacks, it's not likely the poster will endure the hateful remarks to glean the positive help.

People (again, IMHO) should simply refrain from posting to others if they cannot offer something positive and productive to a new poster. Inflammitory and disrespectful remarks and judgements help no one. Rather than intentionally seeking to hurt and repel a new poster, it seems that it would be much better to simply not respond, and let others who are inclined to offer help be the ones to respond.

All that said, this would not give a newbie protection from 2x4's if they are needed. But these 2x's should still contain a positive spin, in an effort to help the poster.

It's an imperfect world, and these boards will never be without a certain amount of negative disruption. It should be used, however, with Harley's principals in mind, so that people who WANT and NEED help can get it without dodging the rocks and bottles some posters insist on hurling.

JMHO
SD

I don't think MB vets ARE legitimizing an A-marriage, for the same reason that I don't think reading the bible to men in jail would legitimize crime.

I DO understand, am sensitive to, (and support) an effort that seeks a positive solution to the problems created when someone in an A-marriage posts here. I would be willing to work with any group of people who have some suggestions on how to do that, and add my voice to that cause.

I do NOT understand or support a negative solution which includes harrassing, insulting, degrading....not only the poster, but even the good people who are brave enough to respond. I will not participate, support or encourage that kind of "solution" which I see as no solution at all.

I first started posting here not because my marriage was in trouble...we were already well into recovery before I found the forum portion of this website. I'd found the articles shortly after d-day, and began using the concepts I'd found in them as part of our recovery process...but the forums came a few months later.

I came here after using another forum to vent and deal with my own issues during recovery...what drew me to this forum instead of the other was the care and concern I saw for the posters...I was totally impressed with the knowledge that was given, and the concern and understanding that was being showed to ALL of the posters. When I first got here, there was a long thread for a couple of WW's (at the time)...Cardsonly and 2Bnormal. I was soooo impressed with how they were being treated...given a great mix of 2x4's and understanding by several other posters...I began posting to them myself. Even though they were still wayward (at that time), they were being given some great guidance on how to get out of the state they were in...and eventually both confessed their affairs with their H's, and recovered their marriages.

That was then...this is now.

This board's MOOD, it's own internal methods...have totally and completely changed. That empathy, that understanding what they're going through even when they've done wrong...is GONE. Those that show it are constantly derided and criticized by other posters...compared to being wayward themselves, accused of supporting infidelity...anything to shut them up.

Now the goal is to run off anyone who is not a betrayed spouse seeking support in rebuilding their marriage. NO empathy, no sympathy, no intent to help anyone other than those who have been betrayed. Instead, derogatory comments, venom, flat out insulting and name calling are the rule of the day for anyone who comes here not meekly contrite or ready to accept that venom and anger. And the same thing happens to anyone who attempts to help anyone not meeting this criteria.

I’ve been called any number of vile things on this forum…accused of supporting infidelity, etc…all simply because I refuse to join in the continued assault against posters who come here and don’t meet the criteria being forced on the rest of the forum by a few long time established posters and their supporters.

I completely agree with your comments and recommendations, Starfish. The problem is that you’re not going to get enough support from the ‘legitimate’ posters here to get anything moved forward.

Perhaps this question/comment has no place in this conversation, but I'd like input on it.

As someone who's rebound marriage happened on the heels of the divorces... who BELIEVES and OPENLY STATES that my marriage is often seen as an A-marriage (though not all people agree with me since divorces were filed prior to relationship)... here's what concerns me about this subject.

I have been very open about my situaton and have backed away from our community because of it. Others in A-marriages have seen what's happened to me and other posters who admit to A-marriages... and here's what they do: THEY DON'T TELL.

And you know what? Sometimes I get jealous... because they don't wear the cloak that I and others who dared to admit do...

This is no woe-is-me vent. I take responsibility for my actions... and am open about them... this is me. Not everyone is me. But sometimes... I just wish I could be ME, instead of me-with-a-label...

I find this akin to placing the likes of TOW on this site, so long as it's on another board.

Just as TOW has it's own website, perhaps a person in MFZ's position could create a website for those specifically in affair marriages. I truly believe that they need specialized help for their circumstances. Surely, there are marriage 'specialists' out there somewhere that are in affair marriages themselves.

An affair marriage asking for advice on MB is like a BS asking for advice on TOW. The atmosphere is less than inviting.

Its not just diplomacy or compassion, Star, its also highly practical IMO. Away from the main street, folks will get caring vets helping them out without the diversions that their situations will always provoke on these boards.

This is NOT a forgiveness issue. Even if it was CLEAR that Scripture supported such marriages, I would not abet them in a place where other hurting people might be discouraged. Why would we do that, avoidably ?

Star

Jilly has gone somewhere else on MB ( I know not where) an dis presumably being helped by those who want to.Some pretty smart people IIRC.

Again IIRC Jilly and this latest A-marriage were both sent to GQ2 to get help in our town square.

If folks who direct new flks were to direct averred A- marriage folks to wherever Jilly is surely that would be OK ?

Folks get helped
Hurt is avoided.

Simple solution. No heavy doctrinal issue. After all this doesn't happen very often.
OC issues are directed to the pregnancy board typically, Divorced folks to "divorcing".

Why can't A-marriages be directed to wherever jilly is ?

I'd agree Bob, but I'd figure that they'd have the same issues that posters on JFO or Recovery often do...little to no response to their posts.

The vast majority of the posting and help is done here on GQII...most people wont bother to go somewhere else to help.

Good point, but I'd figure that the end result would be that the posters wouldn't be helped, and either leave the site unhelped or come here and get flamed...same result.

b0b,

I'm not talking about diplomacy or compassion....I'm talking about personal ethics....mine (no one elses). If the goal is to create a higher level of protection for this board that excludes A-marriages.....I can see some level of need for that, and I'm willing to support and participate in an ethical and positive movement to do that.

What I will not do is silently tolerate any sort of lynch mob style solution that even attacks our long term members, creates more harm, and solves nothing.

ba.....the members of TOW who come and are ready to leave their wayward state....are helped here all the time. However, if you want to spear-head an effort to convince Harley to ban all A-marriages from this forum, I encourage you to do that in a productive way.

And that still makes me sad, NB!

You have been a HUGE asset to this community, having experience and knowledge that is greatly needed here. Our MB community is losing out on much great advice because you (and likely others in your situation) have backed away from MB, IMO. I'm not saying I don't understand why you have...because I totally do. I'm just saying it's our loss and it makes me sad.

It seems to me that MB has cut their nose of to spite their face.

And I agree...anyone newcomer who's read MFZ's or Jilly's threads would probably just withhold the pertinent information in order to get help.

Lori

silently tolerate any sort of lynch mob style solution that even attacks our long term members

Star

I stand by my every word in this debate. I will not tolerate having lies told about me and words put in my mouth however "respected" the poster may be. I have tried to keep calm and diplomatic apart from that episode.

creates more harm

The name calling and lying has not graced this board,for sure.
People standing up for the protection of the vulnerable majority on these boards is a good thing though, I believe.

I did NOT* infer this in any way. I merely suggest that we have a natural tendency to seek advice from those who best relate to our situation. I am not speaking for or against affair marriages.

IMO, a website for affair marriages would be a better atmosphere than a board on MB which tends have a rather large BS community.

For such a board to exist on MB, it would almost HAVE to be a private board. You have a big heart, and are quite open minded. I can envision you being a resource for advice on such a board. I cannot envision too many others.

*edit

and those who withhold information do NOT really get the help they need.

Eav, anyone?

This is such a touchy area. I think on this one, we all have to just agree that there are differing viewpoints.

I was the WS in my first marriage. It isn't easy to admit that here, but I didn't need anyone here to tell me how wrong I was. And I do believe in a greater power here, what comes around, goes around.

I waited a long time to remarry after my first marriage ended (more than 5 years) and did so only when I truly believe that I could be the kind of wife that any man deserved. And I have been completely faithful to my current H.

And now I'm paying for my past, again and again. I thought my marriage was in recovery only to learn just this week that WH never lost his wayward mindset....didn't learn a thing last time. No, he wasn't having either an EA or a PA, but he was contemplating it of that I am sure.

I think the gist of this whole subject is that you can't really police folks here to tell the truth, you know, the whole truth. My bet is that there are lots of folks here who are in affair marriages and just don't say so.

JMHO

Who

And people standing up for the compassionate majority of members on these boards that desire a positive solution to the ongoing problem that A-Marriages create....is a good think too I believe.

Please accept my apologies if anything I said, led you to believe this has anything to do with you personally. It's addressed to you....but not about you. Sorry if that was confusing.

Star* ,

I have to say, right up front, I am heartily offended by defense, justification, mitigation or any care and feeing of an affair marriage whatsoever. Sorry, but it’s what I feel. Right square in my gut.

Further, I feel I am being more or less encouraged to leave MB for good because of all the recent support and justification for A marriages around MB.

Hmm, let’s just call them Arraiges for short, shall we?

Now, I understand some people will say me as a BS leaving MB because I am offended by Arriages being helped here is my choice, period.

But you have to have seen many times already when a WS or even FWS feels some heat or otherwise objects to what they read here a number of people always immediately say it’s the mean and nasty MB approach’s fault. Or if not some mean and nasty poster’s fault then someone was too blunt, or something else totally subjective. But it’s never said to be the F/WS’s choice to take offense and not come back. It’s always because some sort of nasty mood here made them leave.

Very hypocritical isn’t it? A F/WS leaves and it’s the fault of the people who posted to them. But a BS leaves because MB is kind of like turning into a suburb of TOW and it is the BS’s choice.

I am watching this thread with interest. It will help me make my choice.

With prayers,