I used to respect your posts. I won't even read them any more. No point other than that.

Do you call yourself a Christian? Can you answer any of my questions about this? Will you state clearly why you personally cannot extend a hand to an acknowledged sinner, one who has shown remorse and regrets his actions?

BigK already answered that question. I totally agree with his POV. Helping the sinner and helping the marriage are not the same thing. Want to get into a religious discussion? Go look up FH. I'm sure he would enjoy it. I am totally with MFZ getting right with God. I don't see how saving his marriage is part and parcel of that. It seems to me many are justifying their stance by saying it is the Christian thing to do. We can convince ourselves of anything - even of having affairs.

And for all you new BSs out there. Don't worry. Your WS leaving you will never last. That affair will die. Unless they come here for support, that is. So make sure your WSs don't know about MB and you might recover your marriage.

If you believe in a merciful God and you hope for absolution of your sins when you're called to Him, why do you not practice the words of God, which Jesus preached in the temple?

Come, read John 8:1-11 once more, and tell me why the lesson Jesus gave the villagers does not apply to MFZ, who sinned against God and committed adultery? Jesus would not condemn the prostitute, though she did not show remorse and she served no penance. How does one rationalize setting oneself above the teachings of God and his Son and steadfastly refuse to help MFZ in his time of need?

If you can’t answer that, there’s really nothing to say.

We help people here. To insist we only help marriages is not a valid point. Many of the marriages do not survive even with the assistance of the best of the pros on this board. Shall we then ban a dozen posters on this board I can think of right now who are in Plan D...because we can no longer help their "marriage?" Sorry, that doesn’t pass the logic test.

Y'know something. I was ambivalent about people from A marriages posting here but the more I think about it, the more I think it's rubbing salt into the wounds of all the BS's here. It is passing on the message that after enough time, it's somehow ok. I put myself in the place of say, my parents. If my father had married an OW (and he didn't even have an affair) I would never consider that a "marriage". If I'd married the OM and was in the same place as MFZ I certainly wouldn't come here for help. I'd probably think I'd got my just desserts.

Longhorn, I've always said "hate the sin, love the sinner" and I mean it sincerely. But I have to agree with BigK here (shock, horror). BigK said:

"He undoubtedly needs help - it's just that he should not be getting it HERE. Why is that so hard to understand?"

However, I also agree with Starfish. When MB member becomes pitted against MB member it isn't healthy and it isn't constructive.

I'm sure Saddam gassing the Kurds for the greater good of the Iraqi people made logical sense to someone. We all have to draw the line somewhere. Some people just find a different place.

Good, then you can answer the questions I've posed above, Kiwi. Frankly, I lied a minute ago. I'm not just using this as an intellectual exercise. I've stayed with this as long as I have because my faith has been badly shaken. Basically, I'm trying to find a reason to go to church Sunday morning. I see no point to being in the church on Sunday to worship my maker if the congregation will not practice their faith when they’re not seated in their pews.

We did draw the line in Iraq, pio. Though he killed more than 350,000 men, women, and children that we've found in mass graves, his régime was destroyed and he can kill no more. And now he has been executed by his own people.

Please, please, please just answer my questions instead of drawing false parallels.

Longhorn, the question. Do people in Plan D have a place here? A good and honest question. Most of the people here in Plan D weren't in Plan D when they first started posting. They've built relationships with other people here, they're comfortable here, they want to keep sharing with people they know. It's a different dynamic.

They use what they've learned here into new relationships. I'd even recommend Marriage Builders to people who are considering marriage - all the concepts work for having a healthy marriage - even one untouched by infidelity.

I'm almost surprised at myself for the stance I've taken here. I sympathise with MFZ to a certain extent. 28 years is a long time and what we do when we're very young is usually very different from what we'd do when older.

Longhorn, there is no reason to have your faith shaken. I said before and I say again "hate the sin, love the sinner". All people are saying is that A marriages coming HERE cause them grief and heartache and are their worst nightmare. That's no reason to shake your faith.

Of course there is reason to doubt my faith, Kiwi. The congregation in my church is a slice of humanity, good and honest Christians, just as many here call themselves. If people here cannot keep to God's word, as Jesus gave it to us, there's no reason for me to think the church congregation across town will either.

That we "assist marriages" is at best, a poor crutch to use as an excuse to draw back from the sinners who show remorse, guilt, and who understand their failings. In fact, I can't think of many pros out here who have not, at one time or another, read the post of a childless BS whose WS is running amoke and suggested outright the BS divorce the WS. That surely isn't helping a "marriage," though it certainly helps the individual.

But please answer my question, Kiwi. I really need to know.


(Edited to correct my punctuation which suffers when I type quickly.)

Jesus would have forgiven MFZ. He forgives us all. He died for our sins. He said "Father forgive them, they know not what they do." I know FH would take offence to that. He would say we can't be forgiven until we ask for forgiveness.

I spoke to an MBer once privately about my faith. I said that even when I forget God, He doesn't forget me.

I still stand by what I said before. It's not about whether MFZ is remorseful or anything else. It's about how the worst nightmare of BS's is asked to be put aside. I can understand that.

BS's can eliminate the "nightmare" simply by not clicking on that thread. They already avoid the nightmare by not going to that "other website," do they not? It requires a positive action -- clicking on a link or a thread to go the site or a thread. Can they not save the energy once here on MB and NOT click on the thread in question? (I'm sorry, I can't think of the name of that website to save my life, but you know the one I mean.)

From what you say, you know Jesus will forgive MFZ, and MFZ will sit at the thrown of God when he passes...along with the rest of all other good Christians...but he's not good enough to be among the rest of us sinners here on earth?

Remorse plays no part in this? Why then, do we chase off WS's who defend their affairs, but welcome those like Dorry and MrsW, who are remorseful?

Most definitely if they TURNED from their raping and paedophilia.

All I know is that if I was in the same position as MFZ I wouldn't look for help on a board that had many BS's on it.

It took me all my courage to post here as an FWW in the early days. I'd read all the information on the main site and saw that the Harley's had lots of positive things to say to the FWW as well as the BS and I felt I would be safe posting here - and I have been (most of the time lol).

It's not that MFZ is not good enough. Of course he is. It's just such a trigger for BS's to hear about an A marriage. Yes, they can choose not to look or post but they "know" he's here.

MFZ has turned away from his sinful ways and stayed faithful to his wife in a committed marriage for 28 years. Having learned how sinful he was in his previous marriage, he has turned away from that life and has not committed adultery again. He's shown remorse and admitted his guilt. He is repentent and should be treated as any other sinner, correct? If not, what should his penance be?

Longhorn - you seem to be having a problem today with comprehension.

In fact I have answered your questions about this woman - you've just chosen to ignore them.

That is absolutely ridiculous Longhorn. Not a single person has said that. This is a straw man arguement whereby you make up a whole doctrine of things that have never been said by anyone here.

Nice attempt at deflection though.

*THUD*