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Kiwi, let me tell you a little story. I came here curious at what this place was. I had NO idea there were WW's here when I got here. How could one build a marriage with a WW? I lurked for 18 months before I posted for the first time. I lost 20 pounds reading thread after thread, night after night. I was so angry that my fingers shook and I couldn't navigate a mounse pointer around the screen. I hated WW's with a passion, Kiwi. I have never recovered from my WW's cheating and I never will, in some respects. But I learned to ignore threads where WW's would post. I got by that way until I was strong enough to read them, and in time, I understood. I found WW's were not the very incarnation of evil, and I could even learn from the remorseful ones.
If I could do that, with a depth of hatred in my soul you cannot imagine would still exist 34 years after my marriage failed, then I think others could at least not attack a fellow MB pro who was extending a helping hand to a confessed sinner in need.
Being a BS and trying to recover their marriage is a tough business, Kiwi. It takes tough people to get through it. I think the BS's out here are tough enough to not click on a thread and committed enough to pay attention to their own threads.
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BS's can eliminate the "nightmare" simply by not clicking on that thread. No they can't longhorn - that is rubbish. How is anyone to know what a thread contains before they click on it. Our of all the registered posters here, there are probably 10 times or more who lurk but not register. You have even seen posts from new BS's who are horrified at the legitimisation of affair marriages. Where Longhorn is YOUR compassion for the hurting? You show compassion for the ONE but none for the MANY. Remorse plays no part in this? Why then, do we chase off WS's who defend their affairs, but welcome those like Dorry and MrsW, who are remorseful? Remorse is just words without ACTION. MrsW and Dorry and countless other FWW's here have done more than just talk. I am sure manfromzog is sorry...... NOW. What amends has he made to his first wife who he brutally raped?
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW) D-Day August 2005 Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23 Empty Nesters. Fully Recovered.
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Longhorn, I understand all that.
I just "get" why this is such an issue for BS's.
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You're right, BK. No one has suggested banning posters who are in Plan D. We wouldn't think of it. I asked if we should...because we cannot, in those circumstances "help the marriage" as you contend is what we do here. Second, I guess you didn't read the followup. I think most of the pros out here have all suggested at one time or another a poster simple divorce their straying spouse. That doesn't help the marriage at all, BK...but it surely helps the individual, right?
It wasn't an attempt to deflect the conversation, BK. In fact, it was an illustration we do NOT necessarily concentrate only on marriages. We also help WS's and other sinners who are in need.
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MFZ has turned away from his sinful ways and stayed faithful to his wife in a committed marriage for 28 years. Having learned how sinful he was in his previous marriage, he has turned away from that life and has not committed adultery again. He's shown remorse and admitted his guilt. He is repentent and should be treated as any other sinner, correct? If not, what should his penance be? He commits adultery every time he has sex with hie OW. He has not turned from his sin. His marriage is illegitimate.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW) D-Day August 2005 Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23 Empty Nesters. Fully Recovered.
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BK, see the little (quite true) story I told Kiwi. If I could do that in the mess I was in, anyone can.
MFZ wrote he gave everything he had to his ex when they were divorced, and he admitted it was not enough...but it was all he had. He felt the shame, he felt his guilt.
I've asked you before, BK. Though Jesus imposed no penance on the prostitute in the village, though he did not even ask her to repent, how shall MFZ redeem himself in your eyes?
BK, I’m not disparaging your points of view. I’ve referred to nothing you’ve said as rubbish or anything like that. Can you please extend me the same courtesy?
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That doesn't help the marriage at all, BK...but it surely helps the individual, right? Well we are here to help people who are destroyed by infidelity - sometimes the best way to help them is if they divorce. It's not always only about the marriage. I'm not sure why you make this point. It wasn't an attempt to deflect the conversation, BK. In fact, it was an illustration we do NOT necessarily concentrate only on marriages. We also help WS's and other sinners who are in need. Agreed but I am not sure why this is relevant.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW) D-Day August 2005 Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23 Empty Nesters. Fully Recovered.
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BK, please. You’re getting angry and all I want is to find my way through to church on Sunday. The previous marriage was ended before God and man with the divorce. I agree with you that what MFZ did to his wife was an abomination. The scriptures give his wife the absolute right to divorce him, and she did. It ended the adultery in God’s eyes and there is nothing in the Bible to suggest anyone has a right to make him suffer after that. If I’ve misread the Bible, please point out the applicable passages. What I read is that God forgives the sinner.
When he married his partner in adultery, I would not have attended the wedding. I would not have had any respect for him and I would have crossed the street to avoid him. However, God blessed their union with two children and I have to conclude God has forgiven him. Can I do any less?
I have, as much as I can. What he did was obscene, but if I am to believe God’s word as I read it in the Bible, his sin has been cleansed, right? Once he repents, his sin is forgiven, correct?
I repeat, sincerely and respectfully, what can MFZ do to gain redemption in your eyes?
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BK... thanks for putting up this good fight. LH is on ignore for me... . I know you are going back and forth with him... but bottom line, I think you are wasting your time. This "marriage" could just as easily be counseled in a quiet corner of the board... just as JJ's... the stand these people are taking are throwing this bull pucky in peoples faces... and they darn well know it. This is not about helping a person in need...this is a power struggle that the affair enabling crowd is intent on winning... and they will since we have no real way to stop them. MFZ should have the decency to let others know he wants to move the thread elsewhere...if he doesn't it is only because he never fully understood the pain he inflicted on his BW. This is not about forgiveness either...this is about not rubbing salt in the wounds of the BS. BK... did LH ever give you a direct answer to the question about would he think it right to counsel rapists or pedophiles amongst the victims of those crimes??? I doubt it since that clarifies the issue way too much for this crowd.
Last edited by mkeverydaycnt; 05/26/07 01:14 AM.
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I've asked you before, BK. Though Jesus imposed no penance on the prostitute in the village, though he did not even ask her to repent, how shall MFZ redeem himself in your eyes? Jesus told her to GO and Sin no more. And she wasn't a prostitute so far as I know. She was a woman caught in adultery. By sinning no more she showed her repentance. (IF she did continue in her adultery, she would not be forgiven)
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW) D-Day August 2005 Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23 Empty Nesters. Fully Recovered.
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Oh, all that was because in a previous post, BK, you said to distinguish between the man and the marriage and later you said we only help marriages here on MB.
It's 1:15 in the morning here. Please forgive me if I don't search it out again to quote it.
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MEDC, putting a tentative hand up here. It wasn't just BK.
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yes, Jen, I know... I thank all of you for fighting the good fight. Sorry for the oversight.
Hope you are well and happy.
MEDC
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David and Bathsheba.
Adultery AND murder.
There were consequences for their actions, yet they were forgiven.
David, described as a man after God's heart, continued to live with and conceive more children with Bathsheba. It doesn't seem that God told him to set her aside to prove the marriage's illegitimacy and his repentence.
Was God wrong not to have done so?
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Graplin, I'd forgotten that. It's a salient point.
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BK, please. You’re getting angry and all I want is to find my way through to church on Sunday. The previous marriage was ended before God and man with the divorce. I agree with you that what MFZ did to his wife was an abomination. The scriptures give his wife the absolute right to divorce him, and she did. It ended the adultery in God’s eyes and there is nothing in the Bible to suggest anyone has a right to make him suffer after that. If I’ve misread the Bible, please point out the applicable passages. What I read is that God forgives the sinner. Ths scriptures where Jesus said that anyone who puts away (divorces) his wife in order to marry another commits adultery. This is the SPECIFIC case Jesus was addressing. God does NOT recognise his divorce. Why would you think He does? When he married his partner in adultery, I would not have attended the wedding. I would not have had any respect for him and I would have crossed the street to avoid him. Very good. So exactly WHEN does an affair become acceptable in your eyes? 5 years? 10 years? 2 years? When Longhorn? However, God blessed their union with two children and I have to conclude God has forgiven him. Can I do any less? Are you saying the laws of reproduction are put aside for adulterors God has not forgiven therefore we KNOW they are forgiven because they produced children? Better not tell that to people who's spouses affairs produced an OC. I have, as much as I can. What he did was obscene, but if I am to believe God’s word as I read it in the Bible, his sin has been cleansed, right? Once he repents, his sin is forgiven, correct? Repentance is more than just words. I repeat, sincerely and respectfully, what can MFZ do to gain redemption in your eyes? Again you are confusing the man and the marriage.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW) D-Day August 2005 Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23 Empty Nesters. Fully Recovered.
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WHAT THE HE!! DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH FORGIVENESS?
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It is not our job to forgive him.... this is a matter of not sitting back while the actions of someone rubs salt in the wounds of BS. Period.
Do I think his marriage is legitimate? Nope.... but what does that have to do with the topic at hand?
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WHAT THE HE!! DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH FORGIVENESS? Nothing. It has to do with God's response to a marriage based on an affair and murder. BK makes two points: one regarding the legitimacy of an affair marriage and secondly that repentence from an affair marriage would require the ending of that marriage. God didn't require David to leave her. God blessed their union with a child. That child was Solomon.
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