TA I have tried to add the definitions you suggest for clarity. You won't believe me but I plan no salesman's trick here.

I wish to find the opinions of the board users regarding this topic as only the same dozen protagonists seem to bump heads over this otherwise.

If we face the fear, we might find something worth learning.

And this lesson cannot be learned in a quiet place devoid of forum bun-fights and where those that even YOU admit may be hurt by such discussion are unlikely to be demotivated by such ?

I agree that for some it may be interesting to explore A-marriage dynamics, but to do so in a place where it is likely to hurt the vulnerable is not conscionable for me.

I state again it is not my proposal that A-marriages should not be helped here, I would just avoid a repeat of the encouragement of the wayward and the hurt of the BS as demonstrated in the old Jilly threads. It is others turning this into a religious debate. It is barrier nursing - no more than that.

FH

Are barrier-nursed patients being shunned, denied their rights or unforgiven ?

Or are they just kept apart practically so that the consquences of their situation affects as few bystanders as possible ?

My Dad used to say that
FH, it seems that the only tools you have is your dogma and faith so you are incapable of seeing this is a practical humanitarian marriagebuilding issue, not one of salvation or forgiveness or dogma.

The debate you desire to have about sin & forgiveness can and probably should take place, but I would contend not here in GQ2 where WS like spectacles take huge encouragement from such and many many BS and FWS are hurt by it.

Well said Pep and for the record I completely agree with you on this.

Consider the elitism of those who think they have a right to control who gets help and who doesn't. In their arrogance, it appears some people have forgotten this is a privately owned board. MB belongs to the Harley's and only they, through their appointed moderators, have legitimate votes. If the owners, or their moderators, care to impose a barrier against someone who comes here asking for help, it is their absolute right to do so. To date, so far as I know, they have “voted” not to restrict posting here, save on a case-by-case basis. Everyone else’s opinion is immaterial, including… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you, Pep.

I myself would be horrified to find my ex-H and his OW (now wife) welcomed here and given support to fix a marriage born of infidelity.

But moreover, I'd be profoundly saddened to realize their acceptance here further promotes degradation of what marriage once stood for. Just one more nail in the grass roots PREMISE OF MARRIAGE coffin.

Exactly.

How would such a situation be handled?

How long before an affair marriage is no longer an "affair marriage"?

My own recommendation for this: If someone comes here for help with an affair marriage, they should be told the following:

1) Buy *Surviving an Affair.*

2) Read it.

3) Try a short Plan A.

4) When that doesn't work (and it won't) try a LONG Plan B.

5) Divorce your affair partner after no longer being surprised that affair marriages don't work.

6) Try starting over with someone new in a legitimate relationship - or, if possible, go back to the BS you dumped for the affair and try making it right with *them*.

Mulan

As a not-newly BS, I'll weigh-in.

I have explored this issue introspectively and faced those fears yet arrived at the same conclusion.

To knowingly support A-marriages is in direct contradiction to what MARRIAGE stands for and furthers deterioration of its meaning.

This is what I've learned and this is what I stand for.

God Bless,
Jo

You are correct!

I fully embrace and 100% acknowledge my elitism when it comes to deciding which posters I choose to assist/help.

I am an elitist when it comes to helping unmarried, live-in relationships. I consider them NOT MARRIED. I do not offer assistance for "adultery", because there is no adultery. There is cheating, which is different.

I am an elitist when it comes to multiple partner polygamy marriages. I consider an agreement to have others in the marriage a license to cheat. No whining about adultery after a polygamy agreement has been made.

I am an elitist when it comes to same-sex partnerships. That partnering does not get equivalent weight as a husband-wife marriage from me.

I am an elitist when it comes to marriages that occured after it was known going in that someone had already cheated. You don't get to complain bitterly about your own eyes-wide-open choices after the fact.

I am an elitist when I perceive the betrayed spouse to be too lazy to read any of the Marriage Builders books. If someone refuses to get serious, I quit trying.

I am an elitist when I consider which authority/professional makes a great marriage coach. I choose not to refer anyone to seek traditional marriage help from someone who was never in a man-woman marriage, from someone who has married their adultery partner, or someone who is inclusive of polygamy marriages.

[i]I am an elitist, no doubt!

Jo is from

"Texas blows!"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am going to mapquest immediately

Bob - "barrier-nursed" patients might be a British term I am unfamiliar with, but unless you tell me differently I am going to assume you mean an analogy of an "isolation ward" or "infectious disease" sort of room or unit in a hospital to mimimize the risk of other patients being "infected."

If that is a correct understanding of what you mean by "barrier-nursed patients," then I think your analogy supports the position that I have been stating.

They are all in the same hospital, "barrier-nursed" patients and "regular, normal" patients. People who have the training and the willingness to help those "infected" people are doing so, even though everyone else in the hospital KNOWS the "infected ones" are there and that they are being helped even though there will always remain some risk that others could be hurt or infected. Those who can't, don't have the training, or don't want to work with "infected" people, choose not to work with them.

There are also, of course, some other places to put people, i.e., the old Tuberculosis Sanitariums, private clinics, etc. where people could go and be "separated" from the general population. In the "biblical days" there were Leper colonies also. The population KNEW they were there, where the colony was, and they chose to stay away to not potentially expose themselves to the risk of infection.

It would seem to be a little bit of a stretch, to equate "affair marriages" with being "infectious." People might not like, or be "uncomfortable" with clinics or hospitals that treat people who "acquired" syphillis, etc., because it indicated a lifestyle that they don't like or that they think the treatment of such who "got what their actions deserved or exposed themselves willingly to" "condones" a promisicous lifestyle. But there are those that will treat them anyway, even knowing that in some cases they themselves might even be "at risk" of contamination. I used to send my nurses out to treat Aids patients, as an example.





Bob, with all due respect to your Dad, I have more at my disposal that just a "hammer."

But you seemingly want to "cut out" the "tool" of faith and forgiveness in one's life for sins and errors in judgment that they have made. I understand your opinion and that you think you are "protecting the innocent" from being "exposed" to someone who DID have an affair AND left their spouse for the affair partner, and as I have stated before, anyone who is NOT the original spouse.

I understand the "sensitivity" of feelings, even that someone who is lost in "fogland" might (as they do with almost everything) choose to use someone seeking help for their "affair marriage," their 2nd marriage, their 3rd marriage, etc., as a "rationalization" and/or "justification" for THEIR continuing in their own adultery. You don't really think that I would tell such a person, "it's okay, go ahead and continue your affair," do you?

But I AM a Christian, and as such, when a fellow believer who has a "sin-laden" past of their own comes seeking help, and KNOWS what they did wrong in the past and have repented of it, I who have been forgiven a huge debt of my own by God CANNOT turn around and demand "payment" from that person when God has already forgiven them THEIR debt to Him.

I am constrained by the biblical command to "comfort others with the same comfort that you have received."

I DO choose to "shun" some people too. But I don't demand that they don't post on MB or that others should not post to them. It is an individual choice that we all make on a "case by case" basis.

A hospital is in the "practical, humanitarian, healing people of all types" sort of place, including patients who other patients might see as being "offensive" to them. MB is just that sort of "hospital" for people with marital and infidelity "diseases." If you don't think that faith, salvation, and forgiveness are "part of the process" and "part of the treatment regime" for some people, then think of it like the same "antibiotic" doesn't work on all patients. The same "cancer protocol" doesn't work on every patient. But there ARE different medicines and protocols that can be attempted to try to help each individual case that presents itself in need. If someone ISN'T a believer, then the "faith" treatment, medicine, regime" isn't appropriate or useful. But if they ARE a believer, you cannot withhold that regime, because it has proven effective in MANY cases, even when the patient struggles against the "faith in God pill" initially.

Many tools. Many different people treating many different problems. Each case is similar in some respects and individual in others. Not everyone can help all the people all the time, but no one should be denied help when there are those who CAN help and who are willing to help. But we don't blow up clinics, isolated or in a hospital, just because we find what goes on in there to be "offensive" to us and may lead others to think that fetal life is just as "meaningless" and use it to justify their own "poor choices."

God bless.

Maybe we should ask ourselves "has the meaning of marriage changed for us". For me it hasn't.

Last I recall there wasn't a newly added disclaimer clause to the standard vows where it states [color:"blue"]"Until I find someone else I like better"[/color].

FH

Barrier nursing is a step before isolation.

Barrier nursed patients aren't bad people, they don;t intend to infect anyone else. Its an unfortunate attribute of their situation that they can cause problems in others lives if they mingle in certain circumstances.

ANYBODY'S marriage, saved, Hindu, Welsh baptist ,Atheist, occultist, pumpum or zoroastrian , if it is a affair marriage will serve as an example that affairs can lead to marriage. Very rarely even long ones.

This has been shown to encourage WS and OPs (see the old Jilly threads with "spectacles" etc) and has been shown to dishearten many FWS and BS who are still in the vulnerable stage of their infidelity & recovery journey.

It doesn't matter if the A-marriage folks would rather DIE than encourage an affair or downheart a recovering spouse: its an impersonal attribute of their marriage.

See all that mitigating stuff you argue that salvation removes the attributes of A marriage is not visible to non Christians, and not visble unless you dig deep in a thread to discover that.

This I believe is the core of your argument.

I would only remind you that not everyone who will be affected negatively by seeing an A-marriage supported here will be Christian, and even some of those Christians do not agree with your dogma on this topic.

I cannot lay out my position any more clearly than this FH. I seem to have lost my articulacy in describing my feeling son this topic for some reason. Else you and several others are just blind to the thrust of my argument for whatever reason.

If I have not conveyed to you my thoughts more clearly than before in this post, then FH I can't be clearer. I am not smart enough to make this any simpler. Sorry.

That's great Pepper. You've taken the word and shifted its meaning in a way that reads quite well. I wasn't even thinking of you, btw, when I wrote that word. It would not even occur to me to do so.

But ma'am, I think I've been a pretty good champion of Dr. Harley's principles here too. I haven't been here as long, but I think I learned the important points pretty well, partly from your posts. You may disagree. I respect your right to do that. Will you accord me the right to have an opinion that differs from yours in remarkably few particulars? Will you, who I respect above almost everyone else out here, not stoop to mocking a slightly different opinion as others have done?

How very odd. If a person comes here for support and their A-marriage has lasted X number of years, then of course it cancels out how it began. And it MUST be considered "meant to be".

Complacency is the very reason why so many bad things in this world are not only accepted but viewed as the norm. Unfortunately, its a rarity when one takes a stand despite their fear peers will not agree and be viewed as an outsider (aka not complacent).

I too deal with this fear but have decided it serves me better to be true to myself for what I feel is right and wrong, and stand by that.

I'm a newbie who has been helped tremendously by BP, FH, and Pep (and others too numerous to mention).

For whatever reason, the Harleys choose to keep the boards and rules as they are.

As participants, we choose how we operate within those rules.

When Bob P's thread linked to something that I misinterpreted (which led to my being 2x4'd in my first week on MB) I had a choice.

When FH suggested that I send him a personal email for links to articles he thought would help me, I had a choice.

When I asked "Is there anything I can do to rebuild trust or is time the only answer?" on my first post and Pep challenged me, asking why I was seeking answers to a question I obviously already had the answer to, I had a chioice.

In fact, when I posted on a Saturday of a 3 day weekend and watched in dismay as my first looooong post goose-egged off the front page because 'friendly banter' threads were also on GQII, I had a choice.

When I wrote to the Mods and even Dr. Harley to ask if a special forum could be created for friendly banter threads, which I think are important, but not on GQ II, and they said they were not going to change things, I had a choice.

I'm only a newbie, but I choose to take the parts of MB that have helped me, use it as best as I can, try to give back when it seems I might be able to contribute, and expect others to make choices based on their own situations.

IMHO, with all respect to both sides of this issue....because we are guests, it seems that we should all abide by the wishes of the hosts until things change.

And if things don't change, then we still have the privilege of making our own choices.

Ace

P.S. Personally I would appreciate a new forum for friendly banter threads and maybe even another forum or at least a designation of sorts so that those who choose to post to AM hurting people can and those choosing not to can avoid by knowing in advance. The Harley's must have a good reason for not doing that and it's my choice to abide by their judgement.

Mulan,

How would you feel and what would you think in being told you are legitimizing A-marriages by your post?

LA

My opinion without having read this entire thread is that I am opposed to them whether they are five minutes in duration or five decades even if one of the affairees get's knocked up.

As for any individual who finds themselves at the short end of the stick they insisted on ...well what can I say?

I'm sorry you made such bad choices with your life.

I'm sorry you refused to turn away from those choices sooner.

I'm really really sorry that you brought children into it.

I'm sorry that seeing your choices manifest from a BS perspective is painfull.

I'm sorry that you were wrong and it is a costly loss.

None of these things I feel sympathy or even empathy about will reverse my position that affair marriages are socially unacceptable to me.

I want that line enforced even if it means excluding people who defied it and now regret that defiance [except of course they really don't..what they really want is for the line to be wrong...the defiance to be right...and for our help in accomplishing that end by putting the affair on life support].

People who genuinely turn away from the affair have my 100% support.

It's not a salvation issue, it's not a snobbery issue, it's not an issue of your worth as a human being.

It's an issue of bringing affair marriages into the norm and embracing them "under certain circumstances" which unsuprisingly just keep ketting broader and broader.

All you have to do is break the seal before you may as well remove the boundary entirely.

The minute you compromise your standard because you felt sorry for someones pain is the minute you just supported BSs losing their homes, children exposed to the affair brazenly and corrupted with the enforcement of the law via custody [how much does it warm the heart of BSs for an OP to be called "mom" or "dad" and undermine your authority?]...BS being removed from their own home and OP setting up camp there...WS abandonment of COM for months at a time...financial loss...irretrievable damage done to children including OCs just purely by virtue of exposure to that environment AS an acceptable option...the list goes on and on.

Supporting affair marriages as a viable option allows the sickness to spread. As harsh a reality as that is there is no disputing it. Social validation nurtures behavior.

When you open the door the bad comes inside along with the good. So "compassion" is and has been abused to result in the very sort of quagmire so many people find themselves slogging through today.


So my position is that I will continue to speak in opposition until the time that I am told to stop or leave, and then I will leave and presumably everyone else who shares my opinion will be escorted out as well and there will be NO opposition and this can be another place of support and refuge for affair marriages and line up nicely with mainstream society.

Maybe then the BSs will get a clue and just scootch over, pick their lower lip up off the ground and turn to their own gratification dragging their children behind them.

It sounds like an ideal to the people who support that behavior and like h*ll to me so I'll be more than happy to take my leave should MB sink so low.

A hypothetical involving a BS here that has garnered a lot of attention... over 50000 reads of her sitch.

Lilsis' WH follows through on his divorce filing and then subsequently marries the OW. 6 months down the road he shows up here looking for guidance because his new "wife" is cheating. Should he be counseled in this setting or moved to a quieter place. For those of you that use time as a factor in this equation... when is the cut off date in your mind??? 6 months, a year, 5 years, 10 years??? What happened in the course of time that made it more acceptable? Personally, I don't trust many FWS... they just haven't seemed to get it yet... and for sure, I do not trust anyone that married their A partner...but that being said.... BobP hits the nail on the head with this issue. Others here have made this about things it is not since their position has no real merit.
If MFZ "got it" he would happily get his help in a quieter place on this forum. He doesn't and neither do many of you.

Very, very well said Noodle. Your unwavering integrity is refreshing.

Well, I emailed the moderators a couple hours ago, asking them to determine what the owners of this website want to do about this issue. I urge anyone who feels strongly about this to do the same. Give the owners a look at both sides. Whatever the owners decide, I'm committed to abiding with their judgment. As Ace noted, we’re all guests here and we are indebted to the owners just for its existence.