Just throwing my 2c support to Bob, Noodle, Pep, Mulan, Faithful, Resilient, MEDC on this issue.

Many apologies to anyone I forgot.

Very pleased to see such people taking a stand against this evil.

Plank, friend

Myheart sinks as I read your post.

because it is clear from it that I have clearly failed to convey the main thrust of my petition.

I might agree with every word you say Plank but the rightness or wrongness of A-marriages , and the saved ness or not-ness of th eprotagonists is neither here nor there.

Such discussion needs to be had for sure.

My petition is only that however well or ill intentioned A-marriage folks are who come here, and how well or ill intentioned are the folks who help them out is is demonstrably ENCOURAGING to many WS and OPs and DEMOTIVATING to many BS and FWS ( see proof from jilly threads as I have pointed out ad nauseum) and so "pour encourager les autres" I propose taking A-marriage support to a quieter place where such discussions and help can be had without these anti-marriagebuilding effects.

See ?

I understand your story. Let me tell you one now :

I was in Paris this week for work. I met with an old friend and colleague who told me he has left his wife and tiny children for another colleague who has left her husband.

I know and care for them both. You can imagine how I felt.
However, I did not " kick @ss". Instead I found some seemingly God gien convicting words which started to make a difference.

They both told me that they had true love for the first time in their lives Blah Blech... I gave them the stats of affairs and affair marriages and it stopped them short for a moment.

What do you think would happen if I sent them, or their BS' to MB right now to widen their knowledge and get wider assistance than me ?

Ste and Lou CRAVE encouragement that A's and marriages are "ok" and can last.

Enter Zog and the folks who want to help them publicly because their sits don't hurt or discourage them personally.....

For the first time I can't send hurting people here in good conscience because the message the forum sends is not conducive to affair busting and marriagebuilding IMO.

Folks will argue that religion demands they be hosted on page one, others that its an interesting academic exercise to discuss , because they are far enough from d-day to not be hurt by such. Meanwhile Abby (2yo) and May's(4 yo) dad gets convinced his A marriage can be a 10 year or 30 year "love" story against all odds......

Bob, that is what hit me yesterday when I took a stand against A marriages.

I went through months of he** and months of reconciliation to do the right thing because I love my H. As I said on the other thread, if I'd married the OM, it would have been a farce and wrong and immoral and evil. No amount of time would ever make it suddenly all right. All that unforgivable pain that would have occurred for EVERYONE concerned probably forever.

I just can't accept giving help to people in A marriages. I didn't even know how strongly I felt about it until the implications really hit me yesterday.

Jen,

I can see you mean that.

I'd have trouble not helping anybody who could use a resource within my gift, but I sure wouldn't help ONE publicly to the detriment of MANY if there was a practcal alternative.

I really think that the clarity that you see, and I see over the implications of this issue is a "get it or not" thing.

Some smart people have posted and they just can't conceive of how very unhelpful is the message sent by abetting affair marriages on GQ 2 here.

For me it is absolutely black and white. I pray for better powers of expression so I people can at least understand what I am saying before rejecting it.

Its not a shunning issue.
Its not a religious issue
Its not a judgement issue
Its not a "holier than thou" issue

It is a practical compassionate marrigebuilding issue. No more than that IMO.

All the rights and wrongs arguments can take place calmly in a place where the vulnerable many are less likely to be hurt by it.


I really hope all is well with you by the way.

Bob, I feel for you with the situation with your work friends. Have you offered any assistance to his BS?

Plank, I 100 percent agree however, this forum is full of people hurting over this very issue and the whole idea of supporting A marriages openly is the problem, at least for me.

BTW, I voted for the A marriage warning in the thread title.

Bob wrote:

"They both told me that they had true love for the first time in their lives Blah Blech... I gave them the stats of affairs and affair marriages and it stopped them short for a moment.

What do you think would happen if I sent them, or their BS' to MB right now to widen their knowledge and get wider assistance than me ?

Ste and Lou CRAVE encouragement that A's and marriages are "ok" and can last."

Bob, I have posted my views on this subject enough times over the past few months, so don't need to do it now. What you wrote above is exactly to the point of what the problem is here.When H began telling me the very mild version of the truth at the beginning of d-month, "I have feelings for OW, but haven't told her", he also told me this. He used his brother, who was a WS who left his W for the OW, as an example. He told me how is B told him how much happier he is now since leaving his W. (BTW he ended up dumping oW after 2 yrs). He also related a conversation he had with his uncle who left his BW and 2 teenage sons for OW. The uncle WS told H how his boys are doing great and they are really well adjusted. (Turns out the ex-BW had a totally different version of how her sons were effected).

My point is H was just looking for any example of A Rs to support his difficult choice of leaving me and our boys. What began to break his bubble was reading Dr. Harley's descriptions on this site of As, which showed him that what he was going through was very common. Also our MC and his IC who laid out the stats on A Rs. WSs are looking for anything to support their addiction and bad choices. BSs are looking for any encouragement to keep them in the fight of their lifetime to save their Ms. Reading about A Ms here just doesn't help either the BS or WS IMHO!

Sorry Guys.

What this thread really points out is how little MOST of the people on this thread DON'T help and DON'T CARE.

Case in point:

The first two pages of GQ II at 5/27/07 at 9:23 CST.

There are about 50 posts per page. So that is 100.

There are a Whole bunch of joke threads and things like that. There are a number of long running Plan A/B threads.

And I ignored the threads of folks who have been here for a while and wanted clarifications/additional info

But there were 12 Threads of NEW posters asking for help. BS's. EACH ONE Asking for HELP.

This BP thread is now 7 pages with 105 posts. (not including mine)

The ZOG Thread has 11 Pages, 153 posts. The vast majority having nothing to do with Zog. Just everyone spouting about who MIGHT get Hurt.

On those 12 threads:

MISHES: Started 5/26, 1 Page 8 Replies
DEWARO Started 5/24, 2 Page 18 Replies
SKIRMISHER: Started 5/22, 6 Pages 77 Replies
NOWHERETOTURN: Started 5/24 3 Pages 34 replies
Chris1004: Started 5/26 1 Pages 13 replies
Independent: Started 5/25 1 Pages 7 replies
JALYNNSPROUTS: Started 5/25 1 Pages 4 replies
DEEPINLIVE4LIFE: Started 5/23 5 Pages 64 replies
IIWIDEOPEN: Started 5/25 1 Pages 6 replies
JUSTINLIU: Started 5/24 1 Pages 2 replies
FULLOFDOUBT Started 5/24 1 Pages 12 replies
JASHLEY16: Started 5/23 1 Pages 4 replies

And GUESS WHO WAS JOHNNY ON THE SPOT WITH HELP FOR THESE FOLKS?

NOT THE ONES crying all over this thread and the ZOG thread.

SORRY, PROBABLY THE SAME ONES WHO WOULD SAY THAT THE SKIN COLOR OF THAT ONE WAS THE WRONG COLOR FOR US TO HELP THEM.

HYPOCRITES.

VOTE?

What, now it's SURVIVOR on MARRIAGEBUILDERS Island?

HYPOCRITES.

Thanks for HELPING.

Thanks for NOTHING.

And when Dr. Harley says that some one isn't allowed here, I will accept it.

And Yes, I AM a FWS.

And NO, I am Not Wayward in my thinking.

I Yes, I understand the pain I put my spouse thru.

I also learned how to ignore threads that I could not help or were offensive to me.

LG

***EDIT****

LG wrote...


****EDIT***

Hypocrisy is the act of pretending to have beliefs, virtues and feelings that one does not truly possess.

Every single one of the 44 (out of 50) people that posted their thoughts about A marriages not being supported here has just been called a fraud by LG. He doesn't believe that you are genuine and even likens it to being prejudiced against people of other races. No, LG... that's not screwed up thinking... ******EDIT***********

so, let me get this straight Justuss.... LG can namecall and call people hypocrites when they are expressing their honest beliefs... yet you want to edit the word [censored] out of my post. That is ridiculous. He in fact was and is a [censored] for calling all these people frauds.

Okay... more PC... LG is a FWS (if he is in fact a former WS... he may be active and not telling the truth on these threads.... perhaps he is being hypocritical in his statements regarding his remorse for what he has done in the past) that feels that he has the right to tell a BS what they may or may not be offended by....

Lately we have had a couple of posters on MB GQII seeking help for their marriages that were the result of an affair. Each time the poster reveals this information, the thread takes on a life of it's own. Some members do NOT want to allow affair based marriages to post on GQII where so many Newbies may be reading and/or lurking.

This Marriage Builders site was created, funded, and owned by Dr Harley. Dr Harley has written many books, conducted many lectures, has a talk radio program and offers phone counseling and weekend seminars for those in need of his expertise. He has offered the Marriage Builders web site as a way for us to discuss our marital problems and apply his concepts and principles to solve them. We, as MB members, are HIS GUESTS.

To MY knowledge Dr Harley does not discriminate against anyone seeking help saving their marriage. If someone calls his radio program and wants help saving a marriage that was the result of an affair, he does not ask them to wait til the end of the program and caution other listeners to tune out. If an affair resulted in a pregnancy, either by the husband & OW or the wife & OM, he does not ask the H & W to sit in the rear of the room at the seminar. If the marriage is bi-racial, May-Dec, or a same-sex union he does not ask them to take only the left-over open counseling appts at 3am. All are treated equally.

There is nothing about an affair that is NOT hurtful. To read about a marriage that was not saved and resulted in a divorce is hurtful. To learn about the complications added when an "other child" occurs is very painful. To witness the struggle of a BS or FWS trying unsuccessfully to save their marriage is painful & frustrating. Once on this rollercoaster, we can't escape the hurt. But we do not "forbid" these posters to post in certain forums. They are free to post & seek help wherever they choose. We can "suggest" forums that may better suit their needs but we can not and do not bannish them to a place we have deemed "more appropriate" or less hurtful to other posters.

If you feel you can help these posters..PLEASE do so!! And if you feel their situation is so inappropriate you can not in good conscience help them,, PLEASE SKIP THAT POST and move on. Your condemnation is not necessary.

**edited to add*** Bob, I am NOT finding fault with your poll. There is nothing wrong with asking the membership their feelings about ANY subject and acquiring positive input. However we do have to remember this is Harley's forum and it has to be run by his standards. All I am asking is respond to these posters if you have constructive advice or suggestions OR don't respond at all.

and Justuss... what was the reason for editing out my comments regarding my foster child. LG brought up race and I responded.... guess having a black foster child is in some way offensive to the board?????????????????

**********************************************
MEDC,
Absolutley Not!! However I have no idea what color your foster child is,,NOR does it matter.
JustUss

So, an opinion that does not agree with yours or the Harley's is condemnation???? No one here has the ability to abnish someone... if we did it would happen... this has been an expression of opinion and your censoring that is out of line IMO when you ALLOW the majority of the posters on this thread to be called phonies by another poster.

You usually have my respect and cooperation... but you are dropping the ball here IMO.

*****************************************************
MEDC<
Sorry. Maybe I can earn it back another day....another way!
JustUss

Bob:

Well, it would appear that justuss is keeping a very close eye on this thread, as well she might. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hard, strong feelings on all sides. Affairs truly ARE the gift that keeps on giving.

I have a few questons. I almost never get in trouble asking questions, "almost never" being the operative words.

Please correct me if I am wrong. Bob, you have correctly presented ONE of the issues at hand. And you have stated your solution. So bear with me while I seek clarification.

What are the enemies of affairs? I suggest that the enemies of any affair are: truth, reality, consequences and time. Did I miss something?

What are the friends of an affair? I suggest that the friends are: lies, fantasy, secrecy, emotional overload and a temporary or permanent lack of ethics and loss of one's moral compass. Again, did I miss something?

How would the presentation of affair marriage problems as in one of the partners betraying the other down the road be a friend to an active, current affairee? How would the presentation of affair marriage problems down the road as inevitable be a friend to an active, current affairee?

How would active, fogged out affairees be helped by this site even if affair marriages were banned?

I completely understand issue TWO, which is the effect that an active affair marriage has on those whose marriage failed or almost failed because of an affair. Given that I am a BS and my marriage almost failed as a result of an affair, I am completely in tune with those emotions. I am also more than willing to help drive the Karma bus on that one with the observation, "What did you expect and What Were You Thinking?" I must confess a more private, smug sort of nasty little feeling inside of myself, which is to say, "Glad it hasn't worked out, you moron!"

My emotions tell me to grab a stone. My intellect tells me that breaking the cycle of affairs is important especially if there are kids involved. I am at war within myself over this issue.

Larry

LG,

You've touched on my only concern for posting on this thread....how divisiveness detracts from helping hurting people.

I was one who goose-egged for 6 hours (but I blamed the joke threads, which I still think should have their own forum where those who WANT to CHOOSE to participate can still do so, but their posts won't push legitimate calls for help down and off the page.)



She errored by posting on the Recovery forum but now that we've finally convinced her to post on the GQII forum, she may still not get help she needs for a variety of reasons.

Can't these discussions (and possibly AM posters) and joke threads be placed somewhere else other than on GQII?

EDITED TO ADD: [color:"red"]I wrote and hit submit while Justuss was posting simultaneously. I humbly choose to abide by the decisions announced and am grateful for this site.) [/color]

OR

In the meantime, or while the transition is taking place, could those really wanting to help commit to going over to the JUST FOUND OUT forum to help like many did for Marriedfor30years...and not have to tell them to Go to GQII where the real traffic is?

EDITED TO ADD: [color:"red"] I still would love to see more MB veterans posting on JFO for three reasons primarily:

1) Hurting newbies usually check that forum out first....at least I did.
2) There are no friendly banter or joke threads to push their threads off the page quickly.
3) It will encourage future newbies to post and stay on the JFO forum where most AM betrayed or wayward spouses do NOT initially post.

I am one of the few newbies to post on this thread. Four months ago, while I was lurking for two weeks, I saw the dynamics of the forums and chose GQII to try to get the quickest response. I'm persistent so I stuck around in spite of my long wait. My life has changed as a result thanks to those who chose to help me.

I usually try to find solutions in the midst of turmoil.....so now that this issue has been addressed, CAN WE CONCENTRATE OF WHAT WAYS WE CAN HELP NEWBIES WITHIN THE GUIDELINES SET FORTH BY THE HARLEYS AND THEIR VOLUNTEER MODERATORS?
[/color]

LG, you've make the biggest difference in our M by your style and I appreciate you....don't always agree, but I respect your choices like you respect mine.

Thanks for your perspective.

EDITED TO ADD: [color:"red"] LG, my H's grandma would not come to our wedding b/c in her eyes I had the wrong color skin. Your comment did not offend me but I would use a different analogy to make your point as others might be offended....also, I'm not sure what BP meant by saying that you 'busted him'. [/color]

Ace

EDITED TO ADD: [color:"red"]BP, thanks for your poll and for posting this thread. If it results in newbies getting help faster, one way or the other, it was a helpful thread..... IMVHO. I appreciate your commitment as I was one who benefited directly from your giving generously of your time, thoughts and prayers. [/color]

Justuss;

Thank you.

Larry

Reading these posts, I find myself agreeing with both sides. However, I also keep thinking...

Once an affair becomes a marriage, the old marriage(s) are already broken. I would tend to think an affair becoming a marriage ends all hope of reconciliation of the former marriages. If I'm wrong in this, please feel free to correct me.

But if I'm right, the damage is done and can't be undone. But a new marriage could be saved by helping to turn waywards into former waywards.

Also, something else to consider. When an affair marriage results in more wayward behavior, the new affair could be with someone who is in a non-affair marriage, thus turning yet another spouse into a BS.

hmmm.... MEDC - Is that anything like the number of times you have called me a "dope" and a "church of one" all because I dare to rely on Scripture for guidance and for answers to the problems we get faced with here in "groupie land" for those engaging infidelity and hoping to not only save our marriages, but to have newer and better marriages than what existed before?

Perhaps it's just a case of "whose ox is being gored" today?

Emotional responses often lead to "engaging mouth before brain," I know, I've been there and done that too. Perhaps what you consider "okay" for you to do or say is not always the same thing others might think is "okay," and Justuss DOES have the power and the right to edit ANY post that she feels is in need of editing or in violation of TOS. That is the role given to her by those who DO "make the rules." We don't have to "like it," but the AUTHORITY rests outside of ourselves and they don't have to explain anything if they don't want to. The system is open to all by CHOICE. We post or refrain from posting by CHOICE. We help where we think we can be helpful and refrain from posting, or end posting, where it becomes obvious to us that our "opinions" are not wanted or needed. Not one of us can help everyone. Not one of us should try to help everyone. Not one of us should determine who is worthy of help and not worthy of help and then use that determination as an excuse to turn an opinion into a vendetta or jihad against someone we find objectionable or "not worthy of help."

That really is what Justuss was saying. The system IS open to all even though there will always be some who are offended, hurt, or angered by someone else's post or situation in life.

Once we've been here "long enough," there are few of us that have not had a post or 2 "edited for content," especially when the tempers flare and emotional responses take over. That is also WHY the system has Moderators who are independent from the active discussions and who perform a "referee-like" role.

If a marriage that results from an affair is very likely to fail, or to limp on with limited satisfaction for both, then what exactly is there to get worked up about?

Whem this issue generates a lot of emotion several years down the line from d-day and recovery, then perhaps those triggered posters need to ask themselves whether they secretly fear that the OP was a better match for their WS, and that the WS would have been happier with the affair partner than with them.

The awful truth is that that might be true. They might get married and be happy as pigs in mud for decades. Thirty miles north of where I'm sitting, Charles and Camilla show no signs of being miserable. Do I think they're happy in their affair marriage? Yup, I do. All it takes is a colossal selfishness, limited sensitivity to the feelings of others, and the ruthless determination to take what you want no matter who gets hurt.

Some BSs are married to exactly that kind of person.

Personally, I get mad when a newbie is assured that 'hardly any WSs marry their affair partner', and 'the relationship won't last'. This might be comforting to someone in the inital throes of agony, but the brutal fact is that their WS might not come back, and might well marry the OP, and might well live with the OP spouse for the rest of their days. Why avoid that reality, hideous though it is?

Whether we like it or not, there have been many cases here on MB where the WS has left, and married the OP, and shows no signs of breaking up with them by the time the BS recovers themselves and leaves MB. It happens.

If we honestly believe what we preach here, then we have to believe that such marriages have limitations and inbuilt structural weaknesses. We have to believe that, even if the marriage does not suffer new infidelities and betrayals, it is not a union which can be spiritually nurturing or support more than intermittent, shallow happiness.

If that's the case, then what is our fear?

If a WS is looking for reassurance that an affair marriage can more or less last, then they'll find it anywhere they look. Julia Roberts, Anthea Turner (UK), Charles and Camilla. If they come here and find hope in the tale of someone whose AM lasted 30 years before imploding, and fail to notice that the marriage has in fact existed with low levels of intimacy and enjoyment and with increasingly blunted sensitivity to each other, then they are not going to be educated by anything, and will just have to learn the hard way.

Affair marriages that come here almost always show us the poverty of such an existence, the lack of depth and the incapacity for true joy.

If our own marriages seem not much better than that...perhaps we need to ask ourselves some searching questions.

And, as Justuss pointed out, if we feel strongly about affair marriages, then we can exercise free will and self-discipline, and avoid those threads. We don't have to keep reading them and keep being triggered. If we haven't got the self-restraint to to do that, that's a problem for us, not the board.

And acting abusively towards someone, whether in cyberland or not, lessens our own self-esteem in the long run and diminishes us. That minor hit of self-righteous anger has a very high price.

TA