I think I get what Jen is saying.

IOWs, MB will support a FWS in rebuilding their marriage after an affair. But hey, if that fails and they end up marrying the OP we'll be more than happy and willing to support you with that one too.

We're an equal-affair opportunity support group NOT

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I feel like saying that very trite "Can't we just agree to disagree?" Sheesh! Diversity is part of life. Difference of opinions if opinion is an opprotunity to grow.

FOr crying out loud. WHat the heck is name calling going to accomplish? Peopl learn by asking question. SOmeitme they are comfortable and easy to answer. ANd sometimes they are hard and hurt to work through.

BUt Bob, (correct me if I misintepreted) ASKED OPINIONS!!!! And in "What would you do? WHat do you THINK? HOw would YOU react? NOWHERE did I hear condemnation or ANY attempt to FORCE anyone to change.

MOST of the posters on this thread stated their own beliefs. Some of which I agree with some make me nuts. Some have me shaking my had very sadly. But the big question is SO WHAT?????

It is MY opinion and MY thoughts. And MY actions that I have to look at. If I don't LIKE or AGREE or actively CONDEMN words or lifestyle, or dogma, or beliefs, I have a CHOICE. If it affects me directly I can walk away, turn the other cheek, attempt to persuade someone that there are alternatives. BUT it is MY choice. And if I can't help, or it HURTS me, I WALK AWAY. WHEN I act out of anger or FEAR, then it is something that perhaps I need to work on within myself.
The questions that need to be asked is WHY?

WHY does it make me angry?
WHY does it make me scared?

THEN,

Can I change it constructively?
Is it WORTH it to attempt?
WIll it hurt me to do so?
WIll it help someone if I do?

THe problem ALWAYS begins when the namecalling and the condemnation of one's beelifs is attacked. I can only state what I can and will do. And that is the part about growing spritually, intelectualy and emtoionally. Challenges are good for us. But it needs to be SAFE to do so, correct? How can one discard the pre-conceived or prejudiced opinions and beliefs if we cannot examine ourselves FIRST?

I DON'T post to AMs. It is just not in me to do so. FOr the folks that can and do. That is their choice to do so and their choice to live with the consequences. JUST LIKE EVERYONE else.

Pep said it best or at least it rang the truest for me and only me. I am an elitist. I choose my friends and I choose hwo to post to. I CHOOSE who I have in my life. I CHOOSE to stand by my beliefs. BUT I am not so inflexible as to believe that there is only ONE way to be a contributor to society.

ACE in Bucket honey ....

No worries and no need to apologize. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jo

For my part, I find it quite illuminating watching who supports affair marriages. Most helpful.

I sincerely hope everyone will accept this in the conciliatory spirit it is offered.


********

I hope this community heals after this episode. As a marriage heals after the obscenity of adultery and is made stronger, I hope we come together on this forum and redouble our commitment to giving comfort and purpose to the lives of the troubled ones who come here.

To everyone I say this. I know to an absolute certainty that the people who disagree with Dr. Harley in this matter are honest people who are genuinely concerned at the implications of allowing MFZ to be here. Those people have provided invaluable assistance to many, many devastated betrayed spouses who have come here seeking aid. There are many other betrayed spouses on this board right now they are providing invaluable help, and they will extend themselves to help hundreds, if not thousands of people will come in the future. These kind MB regulars have been here for a quite a while, years in many instances, and they have never once asked for a reward of any kind.

I salute every one of them.

There are others here on MB too. There are some who have felt throughout this issue that the forum should be open to all. They also have given help to newly betrayed ones; they also are working with troubled ones here today, and they will be here for those yet to find this place. They’ve been here for years too, and have not asked for a reward either.

They deserve salutes also.

We are one.

Emotions have run high this past week. It’s a deeply emotional issue. People have defended their points of view passionately. But sometimes the passion has run too hot. Opinions have been mocked; ideas and people have been ridiculed. The manipulative tactic of gaslighting has been practiced in a number of threads and is currently being used on MFZ’s thread and can be seen in recent posts on this one.

I am guilty of some of these things. I regret each and every instance both intellectually and morally. I sincerely apologize to anyone who feels I have attempted to influence him or her unfairly and I hope you can accept my apology. It is given without reservation.

I think all this must stop. This is not who we are. It is beneath us.

(I personally had a crisis in my faith during all of this, wondering if my religion is valid any longer. For the folks who knew and were concerned; for those who emailed me with kind words, I assure you the crisis was corrected with a long chat this morning with a Chaplain at the chapel on base where I attend nondenominational services. I’m at peace with my faith and with other Christians.)

On a Memorial Day weekend here in the United States, I urge everyone to take a step back and let the blazing emotions give way to consideration and moderation. Keep your faith in Dr. Harley’s principles. Give Dr. Harley the benefit of the doubt in this and please don’t lambaste the moderators. It just isn’t right in any context.

Look, can we not get back to helping the nearly-destroyed ones who come here not knowing what to do next, okay? If you can’t help some of those who come here because of your beliefs, so be it. Let others do that, okay? They’ll respect you while you aid the ones you can and only ask for enough respect to do what they can also.

Let’s get back to business, okay?

I've been reading this thread with interest.

I am a newly betrayed wife, and really appreciate the stance some of you are taking about this subject.

But, we must remember, the people that have come here, whether as a BS or a WBS (makes sense?) need guidance. That is why we are here.

My marriage seems to have crumbled due to an affair. I am scared, lonely, and in need of support. Those WBS's are feeling the same way. I may not necessarily like their situation, but I can understand it.

Don't leave us hanging. We really do need you.

I can tell you why I will not treat him like a pariah.

Luke 18:9-14
9. He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and regarded others with contempt: 10.‘Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax-collector. 11. The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, “God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax-collector. 12. I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.” 13 But the tax-collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, “God, be merciful to me, a sinner!” 14. I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted.’

Please note, I am not calling anyone a Pharasee, I am only pointing out why I make the choice I do.

About three years ago, I tape-recorded a Harley radio show. I kept the tape because of a person who called in about an affair marriage, but then I loaned it to a neighor whose husband left her for another woman, and I never got the tape back.

As a result, I am just recalling what Dr. Harley said, but I think the content is very appropros to this this discussion. A man called in who had been in AA, had developed a relationship with another member of AA, and married the woman 10 years before. He felt called to a joint ministry in AA with this woman.

Now she was having a lesbian affair, and he was devastated.

Dr. Harley asked about this man's first wife. The man said the first wife had been bitter all these years and he had four children by his first wife who were not on good terms with him.

Harley's advice was to let his second wife go and try to reconcile with the first wife. He said the whole basis for his relationship with his second wife was on faulty assumptions -- that he could have had a terrific relationship with his first wife if he had focused on building a compatible relationship with her and that the second wife shared with him the "soulmate" view which results in revolving-door romance.

I think that the posting of people who are in affair marriages can be very informative to us BSs. As MFZ himself said, he's not exactly in a wonderful position right now.

The emails that I saw between the affair-marriage couple and Dr. Harley on the private forum also underscore the incredible difficulty of keeping an affair marriage on track, especially if stepchildren are involved. It's just a mess. You are trying to continue a passionate relationship with this love of your life, but the practical aspects of life are now part of your relationship -- getting sick, paying the mortgage, doing the dishes -- and the practical aspects are really difficult if you've got bitter ex-spouses, underage children being transported back and forth between spouses, etc.

I know I've heard the saying that natural law is about God wanting for us what makes us happy, and there's a reason why affair marriages are generally disasterous.

As for me, I compared myself unfavorably to my husband's affair partner, except in the case of morality. She was taller, thinner, younger, and better educated. What I had to realize is that my husband should not have been comparing me with any other woman and should have been guarding his heart against the flattery of her or any other woman. It took me a long, long time to realize that, and reading about affair marriages helped me to appreciate that there's a big difference between a marriage that was between two single people and a marriage that started with at least one betraying marriage vows in deceit and selfishness.

Cherished

Ummm, I am still looking for someting, I dunno exactly what.

In an earlier post, I said:
_____

The first issue is affairees:

What are the enemies of affairs? I suggest that the enemies of any affair are: truth, reality, consequences and time. Did I miss something?

What are the friends of an affair? I suggest that the friends are: lies, fantasy, secrecy, emotional overload and a temporary or permanent lack of ethics and loss of one's moral compass. Again, did I miss something?

How would the presentation of affair marriage problems as in one of the partners betraying the other down the road be a friend to an active, current affairee?

How would the presentation of affair marriage problems down the road as inevitable be a friend to an active, current affairee?

How would active, fogged out affairees be helped by this site even if affair marriages were banned?

I completely understand issue TWO, which is the effect that an active affair marriage has on those whose marriage failed or almost failed because of an affair. Given that I am a BS and my marriage almost failed as a result of an affair, I am completely in tune with those emotions.

I am also more than willing to help drive the Karma bus on that one with the observation, "What did you expect and What Were You Thinking?" I must confess a more private, smug sort of nasty little feeling inside of myself, which is to say, "Glad it hasn't worked out, you moron!"

My emotions tell me to grab a stone. My intellect tells me that breaking the cycle of affairs is important especially if there are kids involved. I am at war within myself over this issue. I suspect I am not the only one.

Larry

I just wanted to say it again. I haven't posted to Zog or to Justlilly. I did try to help this one woman who seems to be married to a critter.

Where do we go from here? Does this just die down and some folks leave? I hope nobody leaves. Does this just keep on being a divisive issue? I hope not.

Larry

I am sure it will continue to be divisive Larry whilever affair marriages are enabled or legitimised. I for one am grateful some people stand up and say it's wrong.

Bob has posted SPECIFIC examples or affairees who have taken GREAT comfort from such on the JJ thread.

good post KiwiJen

and this issue still is
and will remain
a fountainhead of pain

right here

amongst ourselves

I think he was speaking hypothetically. Which is why I asked the questions I asked, not for the purpose of arguing with him, but seeking clarification from another point of view.

For any number of reasons, affair marriages are wrong. Heck fire, affairs are wrong. Affair marriages in trouble are prime evidence that affairs are a dead end, no joy. I clearly remember telling my wife that if she went with that [email]jack@ss[/email], she deserved what she got, which would be even more heartache down the road than she was passing out to me and the kids at the time.

No joy.

However it turns out, I am hanging around. This place means a lot to me even if it isn't perfect. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Larry

Bob was not speaking hypothetically Larry. I am sure he could give you exact links to posts on the JJ thread where The New Pink Paige and others posted their "joy" at seeing affair marriages "prosper".

Guess I read the wrong reference. Would like to see that. Or maybe not. I am not in a mood to get frothing mad tonight. I don't want to hurl.

Larry

Thank you for sharing this Cherished.

It's nearly what I just posted today on Zog's thread. I think the best advice we can give Zog is Plan A, Plan B won't work for him. Affair marriages are unsavable using marriage builder techniques DESIGNED to repair and rebuild real marriages between a man and a woman with at least the notion of the meaning of commitment.

I believe Zog's best off following a course of action of damage control. Divorce is inevitable; thus, protect his financial interests and dissipate some of the household finances on getting the children/young adults counselling so they can put a finger on the otherwise hidden FOO issues in their lives...lest they repeat the cycle.

I think offering such support is consistent with my beliefs. Affairs are wrong. Affair marriage...no matter how long, never become right. Just end them...ASAP and; if possible, go back to your God given spouse. If not possible, clean up your individual act and move on. Find a and build a REAL relationship for yourself.

Points to ponder:

How can any adulterous affair marriage partner deny their now wayward spouse their happiness??? How hypocritical.

How can any of us ever tell them that their now wayward spouses feelings for OP aren't real, are a fantasy, an addiction when they are the exact same "feelings" that have held the affair marriage together for how ever long?

Isn't any affair marriage now wayward spouse a serial cheater and what advice do we typically give BS's when they are married to serial cheaters???

Again, I don't NEED or DEMAND affair marriages gone from GQII (though I wish they'd just leave, upon SUGGESTION, when they first realize how distasteful it really is). However, the same right that they use to post here is the same right I rely upon to state my strong objection to them.

No worries,
Mr. Wondering

I used to ignore the affair marriage threads ... not offering any of my thoughts/ideas/experience ....

but

now that I am aware that this shunning practice of mine makes me a hypocrite as well as a racist

I have a new idea how to make this right....
(wickedly scratching my witch-chin-wart)
I think I may choose to post to the A-marriage folks

yeah ......

remember what happened when Jerry Seinfeld or Superman entered BIZARRO WORLD ???

I will advise these situations using twisted logic that is the opposite of Marriage Building.

I will become [color:"red"] BIZARRO PEP [/color] ... advise that screaming matches will show the offending spouse who's boss!

yeah ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

and BIZARRO PEP will share how to get away with lies and deception without getting caught AND (added bonus) gasslighting the other spouse by making them think ~they~ are the cause of every marriage problem

BIZARRO PEP will pontificate and advocate for each spouse to grab onto their personal TAKER and "never give an inch"

I will speak the opposite of what is really meant in a situation. Thus, "This am great" would mean that the thing isn't great but actually sucketh.

Up is down, down is up

this seems like a good plan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

hold onto your shoes

PS

I AM on drugs

in case anyone had doubts

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lets teach them to "lay down the LAW," PEP!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[color:"blue"]"Evil flourishes when good men do nothing" [/color]

So I WILL continue to protest and voice my opinion regarding supporting AFFAIR MARRIAGES on MB.