LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

ML,

Okay, I have edited my post per your request, sans clarity, without waiting for Justuss to reply to my question.

My question went to you revealing yourself as the poster I referred to in this thread, so now, I guess, the original post I just edited seemed to me to be water under the bridge.

Will you now answer my serious question about when I'm quoted into other threads by other posters, if I may request, as you did, for them to go back and edit, under the same TOS violation?

LA

LA, none of that concerns me. My only issue was my quotes being used on this thread as an example of "gaslighting."

ML,

I understand you're not concerned so you aren't answering my question. I'll address it to Justuss, then, as you did.

To restate, for the last time...your quotes were not used as an example of gaslighting. I used to them to try to find out if they could be or not.

And now I understand why I repeat...I'm buying into the idea that you don't know exactly what you're doing.

You stating that I was using them as an EXAMPLE of what gaslighting is untrue.

You said you know gaslighting...can you aid us in our understanding?

LA

LA, nor am I concerned about this subject. If I was, I would be participating. You are free to discuss it all you want; you are not free to use my quotes.

I can see how once you recognize gaslighting, it loses it's power.

And I understand the more you see it, the less it bothers you.

Look for nastiness, or a mocking tone.

As I understand it "gaslighting " is the strategic persistant denial of facts with the intention of making the recipient , over time, doubt themselves. Its a way for a protagonist in a relationship who has a weaker control contribution than they would like to increase that control by weakening the resitance of the other protagonist.

Used tactically in limited interaction, such as a negotiation, context diversion and lateral responses can be a useful tool to remove a single issue focus from the prepared position of the other party.

Keep this up and it becomes gaslighting.

I do think that sometimes we see gaslighting & passive agressive etc under every bed, when in truth facts of BOTH these behaviour sets are perfectly normal negotiating/communicating techniques.

Occasional use of either does not indicate evil intent IMO.

I see many of the signature negotiation techniques / behaviours I know of every day on MB, but unless sustained they're not intended to browbeat the recipients IMO.

LA,

I'm old....my skin is a bit tougher than some here and I no longer take everything so hard.

Must be turning into my grandma. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> That's ok, she was a great lady up to the end. I loved her dearly and can only walk in the shadows of her greatness. She excelled in common sense which is sorely lacking today.

I learned to take the good out of life. Make lemonade is my motto. Of course, I like a touch of lime and some sugar.... so it is palatable. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I learned I can't please all all the time. So I don't. My tolerance level isn't up there, it is quite low and I'm glad.

Too many try to suck the life out of me and there's only so much I can give. So even here, I help where I can and if some don't like my comments....that's ok. I expect it and as long as I see I am being reasonable, then I am ok 2!

Gaslight, blow torch, whatever..... manipulating, controlling? I have been accused of that and much more.

Do I control? Yes. Controlling is not always a bad thing. Do I manipulate? Yes, in some cases it is a good thing and given the same set of circumstances, I'd probably do it again. WHAT U say? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Has Orchid lost her mind? Hmmmph.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Nope....my mind is right here, I choose to defuse the chaos and keep things simple.

The WS and even the OP lost their power over me, when I went slippery on them. My RB skills excelled to the point that I was no longer a game for them to use and abuse my good nature. Instead I learned t/b a thorn in their side. I liked it that way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I learned to lean into the pitch and not back off from confrontation. I know myself and know that I say what I mean and mean what I say.

With that mindset, I have been accused of trying t/b perfect. Not true but still accused. I know better. That's what's important.

so no matter what is thrown my way, I know me.

Hugz,
L.

If you want to know about gaslighting...come live with my WH. He is the reason they made that term.

Manipulative, selfish, holier than thou SOB's they are. They WILL make you think you are crazy. They are sick people.

Holy Moly...

I'm gonna make my jello a lot denser, I think.

Because what I hear Orchid saying is that knowing ourselves, defining ourselves, means that when others tell us our reality, it doesn't spiral us into that "am I crazy?" venue. Bounces off. If I KNOW who I am...then others' opinions stay opinions...not fact.

Which leads me back to hearing ML as correct...I'm doing it to myself. I'm taking her truth as The Truth and it isn't.

I'm sorry, HM. Was your real H that way? The man you fell in love with...the whole guy who wasn't just parts? I know that as I wrestled to get out of my DH what I wanted to feel loved, the less I saw how he loved me at all.

My hope is to be able to see manipulative statements so clearly, that when I hear or say them my self...I can call someone on it. So I know it's not real...so I won't feel sick and crazy. I think that's essential in marriage and all relationships.

Both having the same answer, I guess. Know you are real...for me to know I'm real...and to know ourselves really well, too. What do you think?

LA

LA - What happened for me was that my ex was a good and honest man for over 10 years. When the affair started, all of that changed. So when odd things started happening, it didn't add up in my mind. My first take was that there was something wrong with ME.

For example, one sunny day I was working in the yard, and he went to the store to get some fertilizer. He came back 10 hours later. His story was that he was at a barbecue attended by everyone in the family but me. Even my sons were there.

So I am feeling kind of left out, and wondering why I was not invited. He got very agressive, telling me I was crazy, it was an impromtu thing, he tried to call me, he thought I preferred working in the yard, blah, blah, blah.

Months later I found out that the barbecue only lasted an hour, and that he spent the rest of the day with his girlfriend, that everyone had asked him to drive a couple blocks to pick me up, but of course he couldn't because then I would have known that he was missing 8 hours.

There were many, many things that happened that didn't add up before D-day. In fact, D-day was almost a relief, because then I KNEW the reason.

LA:

He actually was this way before the A. But on top of it he had a horrible temper.

The marriage started to go downhill when I started realizing what he was doing. I started not allowing him to do it to me. I grew stronger, he got pissed.

He was also VERY P/A. He really was a mess. Still is actually. I guess I stayed with him because he seemed to really WANT better than what he was. He just didn't try real hard to BE better. Until now..sorta..

Believer...

Since I've been here, I've perceived you as someone who knows herself well and cannot be gaslighted. What you've chosen to do and act has been a grace to my life.

Along the lines of what your XWH did, though, I found this post on Helium, which I think is really important for understanding gaslighting from affairs.

Lemme know what you think: H20 for Gaslight

And this one, which though it has the SA element, I love how they describe what gaslighting feels like from your spouse in an A situation: Gaslighting


HM,

What was he like when you first met, the courting and early marriage?

LA

"Eventually a Gaslighting abuser wins the ultimate war, the final argument, when she begins to collapse mentally and emotionally. The worst Gaslighting abusers will then mock her, humiliate her by sharing her "wrongdoings" (of searching for a solution) with their mutual friends, hoping to get a response of "I wouldn't listen to all that nagging, Man," from them. Perhaps it better eases his conscious to have others tell him it is all her, or that she's just a ******, or just a nag. ******, she's not worth the effort it takes him to keep on living with her!"

LA - This describes my ex to a T. He actually even had my attorney believing that there was no affair, while ex was happily living with the OW.

I don't doubt it at all, believer.

What do you think of this?

That those who gaslight are living from fear (controlling your knowledge, therefore, your reactions and choices)...and while in an A, they believe they are livng from love...while in reality, they continue living from fear.

Your attorney wasn't well-seasoned, I take it? I think all divorce attorneys (heck, all people) ought to school themselves in gaslighting. More I learn about it, the more I see where my self-deception gets me to where I accept gaslighting...and I'm sure in my life, my choice to act from fear was why I did it myself.

Do you think it could be living a life of rationalizations and justifications?

LA

Gaslight-proofing 101

*Believe in yourself (ala Orchid)

*Don't assume it's about *you*. When people gaslight you....it's about *them* Their agenda. Their insecurity. Their poor relational skills. Their bad day. Their fear of failure. Their desire to popular or right. Their lack of confidence. Their powerlessness.

*Look deeper.....recognize the motive. Gaslighting is often a manuever to take the heat off of the gaslighter. Do they need to discredit you? Are they embarrassed? Caught red-handed? Hurt? Scared? Little?

*Answer this question: Who has the most to hide or make up for? *hint....it's not you.

*Reverse babble doesn't just work with WS....it works with gaslighters too. Ex: "Even your mother knows you're crazy". RB: "You're probably right, you've driven my mother crazy too."

*Be LESS concerned with pleasing others, being right, being popular....and more concerned with being ethical and true. If you are....gaslighters are powerless and pitiful.

*Gaslighters are confused by good manners. They are terminally rude and abrasive, so poise and calmness undermines their ability to keep being cruel.

*The bigger the bluster of a gaslighter, the more insecure or abusive they are. While everyone may occasionally resort to gaslighting....those who use it regularly....use it because it's the easiest way to deflect accountability. They have to transfer responsibility so they don't have to face their own failure.

*If you're in the presence of a gaslighter....you have the upper hand....but first, you have to know it....and then...you have to take it.

*What if you DIDN'T second guess yourself?

*What if you trusted your own perception?

*What if you turned that magnifying glass right back around on the gaslighter?

*Fear feeds gaslighters.

*Civility undermines gaslighting.

*Laughter is poison to a gaslighter.

*Confidence scares gaslighters.

*Assertiveness kills gaslighters.

*Intelligence destroys gaslighting.

Be smart, confident, fearless, polite, assertive, and by all means....be bored and amused.

Star,

Thank you very much for your post.

I wonder what bored and amused feels like?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

((((Star))))

LA

Now that I've been through it, I would recognize it. The first article explains the BS's thoughts.

"Imagine that you got up one morning and everything was different. Suppose that your life partner asked you why you were wearing a blue shirt when you knew you were wearing a white shirt and seemed puzzled when you insisted that you saw it as white. Suppose you got to work and your telephone extension had been changed from 4432 to 4435 but everyone insisted that it had always been 4435. Imagine what you would begin to think if you pointed out a new piece of art in your favorite restaurant only to be told by your lunch partner that it had always hung just where it was. Imagine that you began to notice that you experienced a reality slightly but significantly different from the reality other people experienced. What if these sort of oddities began happening day in and day out? The world that other people perceived, understood, and remembered was different from the world you understood. And now suppose that this condition persisted, not just for days, but for weeks, months, and even years.

What do you think would begin to happen inside of you? You might get angry with everyone in the world because they saw the world differently from you - you might continue to insist that you are right. But after a while your anger would probably fade. If you have a shred of rationality, you would begin to think, "How likely is it that I alone think my shirt is white, my phone number is 4432, and the painting is new? If everyone I trust thinks the world is different from the way I think the world is, there must be something wrong with me" If you have a shred of rationality, you would begin to think that it was you. Your anger and frustration would begin to shift and include anxiety or even fear, depression, confusion, and self-doubt. If you have a shred of rationality, you would wonder if you might be going crazy."

It feels delicious, and maybe just a little bit mischievious.;)

((((((((((((LA))))))))))))))

It feels delicious, maybe just a little bit mischievious, and very self affirming. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

((((((((((((LA))))))))))))))