HI, I have posted before. FWH had an affair Christmas of 2005. We are still recovering from a lot of pain. My biggest problem is that I don;t feel comfortable with H going out alone with his friends. I felt this way before and after the A. Before the A H would complain that I was being controlling. He had about enough right before our tenth anniversary. About this time, I was feeling good about our marraige. I began agreeing to him going places like bars and concerts with his friends. I was giving him the space that he wanted. Right after ou ten year mark, H started going out everynight after working at a local ski resort (About twice a week). He ended up having an affair.

Here is my dilemma, H's biggest need is freedom (I.e wants to go out with his friends 2X month in the evenings until 12:00 to 1:00am) I don't feel good about it. I have told him before I don't feel good he says it is because I am a cotroling $%^@^$. I feel like when I gave him space, he screwed up our marriage. I don't want to be controlling, but I don;t feel appreciate when he goes out with the guys. He never wants to go out with me anymore. Oh and one other thing, when we were firt married, he went out on a deployment. It was his birthday, the other guys bought him a lap dance. He never told me. When I found out he was embarrased and said that is why he hadn't told me. I am a pretty laid back person when it comes to that. I would have thought it was humorous if h told me. Instead, I learned that he was a liar. HELP, I want to meet his emotional need for times with his friends, but I want to feel good too!

Well, my H went out with some friends after a hockey game and ended up having an affair... so I should just bow out of this one.

I would trust your initial feelings and find a way to explain to him why you feel that way.

Do you two follow any plan to rebuild your marriage? Does your H want to rebuild the M? Something is not connecting here.

My H also had a couple of ONS with a scanky co-worker after nights out at a bar with friends.

My H's time with the guys NOW includes golfing and Christmas shopping for the wives! No more bars.

Since when is hanging out in bars with the guys an emotional need? I didn't see that one on the questionaire.

Well that was my point. I'm a guy. Hanging out with other guys in a bar being my first choice means that I don't value my other options. Something isn't right with this picture.

Let's see. He wants to go out to bars. He does not want to share that activity with you. Sounds like he wants freedom to do what he wants without consideration of his family.

Knowing that this would be a trigger for you, he still does it. What plan are you following?

Sadly, I don;t know how to answer that. Let me see, I will try to be short:

History: Married 10 years exactly before the A.
A began after H gave me a big new ring for our anniversary (still very confusing to me)

I didn't like the way he presented it (H says: Here I could have bought two kayaks for the price I paid for that)

At the time we were going through serious emotional stress:
Over the course of two years before the A this is what happend:

-new baby
-son hospitalized and almost died
-dog of 9 years dies
-we move
-our new house molds
-kids have severe allergic reactions and are sick constantly for 7 months until we discver the root of the problem
-move out of our house into the house with my dad whom I hadn't spoken with in 7 years
-his family disowns us claiming that we are nuts for moving from our house and that mold is not a problem ( H gets in first argument with his family - i think ever)
-H has a heart condition and is evluated for by many tests
-H stops drinking ( beer or two a night) and loses 65 pounds
-H damages knee and goes through physical therapy for 6 months. They tell him they are going to have to break it and reset
-I start my own business after being a SAHM for 5 years.
-our rental mobile hoe is destroyed by renters and then stolen
-H loses a position that he has been waiting for for 7 years.

Okay, now A occurs and on D-day 1/7/06, I am like I love you and we will make it work. I find the quote below and begin to live my life by that. H says that A is over after I called OW and that he called off all PA before Christmas. EA until my phone call. H wanted me to throw him out. H says he wanted to feel that he was missing out on us and this would be a wake up call.We attend a crappy MC who pushhes my H into thinking about D. We stop going. I write countless posts and read HNHN and SAA a lot. H says he doesn't get the books and acts dumb. I feel we were both in the fog for awhile(6 months). Last summer goes well and things are fine by fall, when school starts again and we start bickering again. I still don't trust him. He refused to be transparent..... Won't meet my need for SF, Affection, says his only need is freedom and support from a non-controlling #$%@%#@.......


Okay here we are now, Lately we hav some of the worst fights ever, but they have been productive! AMzingly productive. H read and liked the article on why women leave men. He says it is exactly how he feels and I feel the same, but I don't know what to do next. I know that I can easily see his faults and where he needs to make change, but it is not so easy to see mine because the way he talks to me is awful. He name calls and yells and I can't pick out what is truth or what he is saying to hurt me. H says hurtful things so that I get angry and stop discussing things. He is a major Conflict avoider!!!!, BUT is beginning promising signs for recovery. I have worked really hard to not LB, and create a positive environment. H has just for the first time ever agreed that he has problems to fix. I think he also has depression and H has considerd the idea. Also H has agreed to go to MC, but I have yet to be successful finding a good counselor in the area. This will be our third counselor. I wnat some one who uses MB principles, but can't afford the Harley's. I have thought about a MB weekend, but don't know if that would help???

Sorry, I am so long winded, it feels good to get out all the pain.

Okay so you don't have a plan. You need a plan. Does H really want the marriage? Will he work for it?

No plan.

We are both exhausted- really tired of everything, BUT I think he would work to make it right. H says he is only here for the kids, but I know he loves me and wants the marraige. H still tries really hard to make things work- H does all the dishes and laundry and other things he thinks I want! I know h is triyng to do what I want, but it doesn't come natural to him. Meanwhile I am not asking for anything, but a kiss when he comes home, a phone call when he is at work... no more trips to the bar without me. I mean we are the perfect picture of the why women leave men aticle.


What do you suggest? We have already done HNHN and SAA and I bought the 5 step to romantic lve workbook to go with the LN and HNHN book. We have done the questionairre, but the things that he says I need to do are not concrete they are like, " stop being a controlling $$@$@ "

P, I am wanting affection and to be a part of everyroom in his house and H is wanting to only nclude me in his family part of the house. I don't think I even have my own room.

Tatertot, EN being that he has his own life. I say marriage is about being joined as one. His response is that everyone else that he knows is allowed to go out with the guys and hang out. Why can't he? Meanwhile, the group of people I hang out with- all the men do not find this necessary.

What if this is the deal breaker- H would leave if i don't agree to this?

DO I want someone who doesn't care how I feel?

See? Here is the first sign of trouble. Why would he buy TWO kayaks? He should have bought one kayak for you two to share.

Okay you need a plan. You need MC. You need to define terms. He says you are a controlling #$%@%#@. Have him define that for you. What behaviors do you have that give this result? How can you change if you don't have a benchmark? Otherwise that simply becomes an excuse.

You should talk. Maybe 30 minutes each day. No kids. Anything open. Make rules. No fights allowed during the 30 minutes.

You both agree on a few things. You both agree that your marriage sucks. You both agree that, for whatever reason, you want to try to stay together.

Now try to agree that things don't have to be as bad as they are. Agree that, with work, they can improve. Then get a plan.

I don't buy hanging with the guys is an EN. It is an avenue to something that is an EN. If he wants to hang with the guys, why not have poker night at your house? Same guys.

I like the garage. I hate it when WW puts anything in my garage. She can have the rest of the house but she needs to butt out of the garage.

Put that to music and you have a Country & Western superhit on your hands.

Was the M good before this? Did you two drift apart because of the stress? If so, you have a lot you can talk about. In fact, that is where I would begin the discussion if I were you.

"Agree that, with work, they can improve"- H won't agree to that and MC said that H can't admit when i make change for the better- he wants me to be this bad person ( I think because then he can feel okay for hurting me). I have made great improvements on my end!I really am a new person!Some things I don't feel good about changing like- agreeing that bar hopping is god for our marriage- I just want H to be happy!

controlling #$%@%#@. Have him define that for you- Defined- You have never let me do the suff that I wanted to do in life- I want to be able to once in awhile to go out riding with my BIL for the day, I want to go out with the guys when they asked me after work (H quote, "People don't ask me to do stuff anymore because they know I won't be able to go. I hate that! I want to be able to have things that are just mine to do like rock climbing and dirt bike riding. I don't feel like I know myself anymore. You know I have always liked to spend time alone. You must not care for me if you can't give me time to myself.")


Just talking about it makes me just want to give up. I will never feel good about him doing things without me when he shows he doesn't care. I know before our ten year anniversary, I was okay with him going out. I felt that he cared about me, I wasn't worried about anything. Now I am worried he is with some OW. Could it be H's EN to escape from the stress of our life? Another thing is I have never felt good about H going out in the beginning of our M because I was never invited. Also, H is away all the time because he just took a firefighting position. He has had these hours since we were first married. He spend a lot of time away and not time with us anymore. In the past three weeks I have only seen him 3 days. H seems to not have a problem with this.

I have suggested poker night or we have air hockey and fosball, but H desn't respond when I say these things.

Hmmm… Just a few thoughts. Maybe he doesn’t want to recognize that you can change because then he would have to consider change himself. He sounds like he is reasonably happy with the way things are. Maybe that is why he wants time alone. That “good” time offsets the “bad” time he spends with you. Kind of like working all week so you can enjoy the weekend.

I agree that bar-hopping is not good for any marriage. It may not be intrinsically bad but it is certainly not good. Certainly nothing positive will ever come from it.

I bet your H is not nearly as unhappy as he may let on. He seems to have negotiated a pretty good deal for himself. He says you are controlling. I see you as “clingy”. I see him as the one who is really controlling. Why? Because he is getting everything he wants and making you feel like crap in the process.

I think I saw a post on gaslighting yesterday. Now it seems like it is starting to fit you pretty good.

You can’t find the answer to this because you are asking the wrong question. And all you want is for him to be happy? Wow. I wish I had a wife like that. A wife who will give me everything I want or feel terrible if she doesn’t. What a heck of a deal!

Okay actually I don’t want a wife like that. But I think your H does.

If I had the choice between going to a bar with the guys or staying home or going out with my WW, I’d tell the “guys” to go fly a kite. Unless WW was scrapbooking – then I’d be heading for the bar in a flash.

He IS gaslighting her.

Reverse babble: Ok you can go out with the guys if I can too. *evil grin*

I guarantee he will not think that is as funny as I think it is. You are way too accomodating. He needs to grow up and be husband.

Larry

I'm not joking about that BTW. That is absolutely what I would do. Just call me Pavlov's dog. I would never give scrapbooking positive reinforcement.

So what can you do that is more interesting than a bar? How can you make not going to the bar a better experience than going to the bar? How can you make him salivate at the sound of the bell?

I think you two have been perfecting this little balet for years. You have more symbiosis than marriage. I believe in some way this fulfills you. I don't mean that negatively. Either your parents trained you for this or your H broke you. Some people are naturally servers anyway. It is an admirable quality. When taken to the extreme, it makes you a perpetual victim. So I think you may have a lot of good qualities that are somehow all working against your well-being.

"He would have to consider change himself"- Exactly!!!
Lately, I have suggested that he begin to own some of the problems- up until this point it has been, "if you didn't treat me so badly, i wouldn't have had the affair so it is your fault"- My new response is, just because I hurt you (eventhough, i don't think I have)it doesn't give you the excuse to do what you have done to me and the children. I say that it is not okay to hurt someone because you are angry. Look what you are destroying. H seems to be beginning to understand that i am not going to deal with the excuses anymore.


"I see you as “clingy”." H says that i am really clingy. I can understand why he says this. First, I have always had BF or men in my life shower me affection and time and involve me in every part of there life. I was always the girl with the group of guys, the one who hated all the girl stuff and would rather hang out in the garage rebuilding an engine than chatting with the girls. H likes me for being like that, but at arms reach. He has never involved me in his friends or stuff. I know I am clingy because i don't feel that I recieve the amount of time or energy I need. In return I cling on when I have a chance savouring what ever tidbit I get when he is around. If I had the time that his work or dirt bikes get then I would be great! It is not even time, it is energy directed to thinking about me. I could easily be with a man who spent a lot of time at work, but when he came home I was important. It is ironic that you say he is controlling bc others on MB have said the same thing. How do you see him being controlling?

"You can’t find the answer to this because you are asking the wrong question."- what question do I need to be asking? Is it plain and clear and I am missing the picture or what?

You are asking the question "how can you improve your marriage?". The question you need to ask is "why is NOT improving the marriage in the better interest of my H?".

That is where I think you should start. I don't think you understand that your H really likes the way things are. You being clingy is beneficial to him because he can use it against you.

Let me put this simply. He is getting everything he wants and he makes you feel like you are to blame in the process. Who do you think is driving this bus? He is clearly in control of you, your emotions, the marriage, his life. He plays you like a Stradivarius.

He wants you to believe you are the control freak because it is how he can justify his bar-hopping and shut you up in the process.

Read Larry's thread on gaslighting or the Mulan post referenced there. See if you find yourself in that mirror of self-reflection. Obviously I don't know you. This is just my impression. I'm also not very smart as most here will attest.

What is your #1 EN? My guess would be admiration.



I DO hope you don't actually tell him the part in parenthesis. It serves no purpose to tell him that. Think it all you want - just don't say it.

LArry- H would say go have fun, He would say I want you to do these things. I want you to enjoy your life.

I'll hop over to gaslight.

H really could careless if I went out partying, bar hopping, or whatever. He thinks this sort of thing is acceptable. Even if it is with the guys. At least that is what he says. My friends think h needs to grow up too!

"Either your parents trained you for this or your H broke you. Some people are naturally servers anyway. It is an admirable quality. When taken to the extreme, it makes you a perpetual victim. So I think you may have a lot of good qualities that are somehow all working against your well-being." - I do have this martyr chrachteristic. Just look at my quote below. I really feel that I should give everything of myself in order to make the other happy. I feel this is love. My parents conditioned me well. They were very self serving and I was always willing to obliged until they hurt me badly. All this was in the name of GOD. You need to treat others as you wished to be treated and GOd says that you should do everyhing for your parents....- only problem is that I didn't know that I wanted to be so selfish like them. Thanks, I do think this is a grest chrarcteristic and a bad one. I know I am a good person, people appreciate this (except my H takes advantage of it).


So what can you do that is more interesting than a bar? How can you make not going to the bar a better experience than going to the bar? How can you make him salivate at the sound of the bell?- Good question- I have no idea. He doesn't want SF or FC or RC, he just wants to go party. I can't hink of a single thing that he enjoys besides going out.