Oh, I never tell him that I think that I don't need to change, but I have told him that I have worked hard to change and expect some kind of change from him.

Oh and my #1 is a toss up between affection and SF. I'll tkae SF when I don't get affection (mostly because I feel that you are getting a lot of affection during SF and Idon't see it the rest of the time. LAtely, H refused to give me affection duirng SF. It is like going through the motions without showing any feeling- so bland and boring!)

Burn your dictionary and go buy a good one.

Some things I have learned in this process. One is you cannot now nor ever will be able to make your H happy. That is NOT your job. Only he can do that for himself.

What I said earlier is true. You are fulfilled by this. Playing the martyr meets one or more of your EN's. Good news is that it keeps you in a bad M. Bad news is it keeps you in a bad M.

Can I ask? How do you feel about yourself? Do you love yourself? Do you respect yourself? If you cannot, don't expect H to either. It would be a double standard.

Oh and change that gawd awful sig line. What a load of crap!

The movie "Network" comes to mind.

I have a great self-esteem! I am a wonderful person!- I know it! H likes to destroy this feeling- he is constantly saying how awful I am. When I respond that everyone else loves me, he says that if I treated them the way I treat him, then I would have no friends. I don't buy that anymore!

Not to sound too into my self, but I think there should be more people in the world like me. I spend my life working for nothing and sometimes giving my money to give underpriviledged children a chance for good schooling in the Preschol years. I go out of my way for other people. I fight for what is right. I respect myself that is why I have asked H to leave a few times if he is unwilling to make change. H comes back. NOt invited- he says I pay for the house!

If I am guilty of giving too much and not loving myself enough, let me sigh in relief!!!!!!!!!!!!!I can live with that (well no I can't, but it is better than contolling and unsupportive and a selfish ^#%^#^%#- all the things I detest in other people). No matter how you think of someone, if they ocntinue to tell you how awful you are, you start to believe some of it.

But I need my dictionary to check my awful spelling/typing mistakes- if you can handle reading my spelling errors, then I'll agree to burn it!

Search on my name. See the spelling thread. Get the google toolbar.

Larry

Hey, I have the google toolbar, but have been so blind that I could use it. Sometimes blatantly obvious things are hard to see!

By the way, piojitos, that line of crap is from the Pope!

You have given me some great things to think about. What do you see is the next step?(Here I go at doubting my decisions)

I think he is sort of cake eating-isn't the response to that Stop giving cake. My idea of this would be to do a 180 or just stop being around for him- like separation for a while, but then I think that may make us lose love. I am perplexed.


Hey that toolbar works well!!!

I suggested a new dictionary because your definition of love is off.

And you are using the Pope as an authority on marriage because?

I'm not Catholic but I don't THINK the Pope has ever been married. I'll google it to be sure.

Okay I'm not going to totally buy this right now. It is also my nighttime.

I think this long-suffering of yours help feeds your self-esteem. As I have been saying, as bad as this M seems to be, it is meeting a significant need of yours. Being the victim, on some level, makes you happy.

cfc - I don't think you and your husband have ever recovered from the affair. He sounds like he is too selfish and feels too entitled.

You sound like a good woman. While you are doing things for others, be sure to do things for YOU. Get some counseling for yourself to find out why you tolerate living with this man.

cfc, your WH sounds like a teenage boy rebelling against his mommy - not like a grown man trying to be a husband to his wife.

What is his opinion of POJA?
Mulan

Okay several things- first piojitos, I hear what you are saying about being the victim. My mother played this role for many years. I could be doing this. I am not consciencely doing this, but I could consider this as an answer. I do think that helping other people feels good- but that's it. I don't want to play the victim, in fact I have tried to end the cycle, but I feel awful when he is gone and I feel that I didn't do what was right for my family. I do have to say my life has ALWAYS been in some type of conflict. So when I do have conflict, things seem okay. When there is no conflict, I have terrible anxiety about life- waiting for the next thing to happen. I have had about 0 anxiety over the past 3 years with everything going on. Maybe playing the victim helps me feel that there is conflict. Just an idea. I do think what you are saying is on the right track, but we haven't pinpointed it yet.

Believer- thanks- I am a good person even if pijtios thinks it is for the wrong reasons ( subconsciencely). I let this continue because I am scared of the pain of when he is gone. I think we all can relate to this. However, when he has been gone, I have been calm, relaxed and feeling like a weight has lifted and at the same time sad to not hear his jokes and see his smiles. I do try to do things for myself-occasionally ( like a bath every now and then.) Personally though, I feel better when I am doing things for others. That is truly what makes me happy. Especially for my kids, but the problem then is they expect a lot from me and when I can't always give it they act out. ( nothing extreme, but I am starting to see that my son, 7, expects everything done for him- Maybe pij is right or it could just be his age.

Mulan- all of my friends and family who hear the daily stories think like you. They think that H needs a 4x4 to wake him up because he is acting like a child/ teenager. It is funny that you relate him to having a fit to his mom as that is what he says that I am like. His mom was a controlling @#$%@%. She followed him around everywhere and opened his mail and checked his pockets and called his friends.... H relates me to her and they have been on bad terms since she pushed me and my 6 month old daughter down the hall to prevent me from leaving her house. I think H is transferring a lot of anger from her to me. Anyways I definitely agree to the childish behavior especially using me as an excuse to do the wrong thing.


POJA- H doesn't like it because he doesn't get what he wants. This is what I have been doing since the beginning of the marriage- H says it is controlling (i.e. he doesn't get 100% of what he wants). We have tried this many times, but H gets angry if he has to compromise bringing that everything has to be an issue to me and I can't just be happy that he is happy! Up until lately I have agreed to make him happy at my expense. Only because he has said would you rather let me have a few hours of fun every now and then, then lose me for good?

CFC

Please read both gaslighting threads. You need the information and an understanding of the concepts.

Larry

the first thread is yours right?
Is the other mulan's thread?

I will read them.

What is you next step? Are you in IC or MC?

CFC

My wife and I are about 99% recovered. Both of us still have some few residual issues, much of which is related to sadness. In fact, I have an old sadness thread that gets pulled from time to time by myself or others. You can find it on recovery if you search.

That said, both of us are dedicated to making this relationship work and raising our kids and generally just being a family that works, the family that is.

My purpose here is to continue to learn. I also attempt as best I can to help others. The gaslight thread I started is because I have recently become acquainted with the concept and I clearly see gaslighting going on with some of the posts here AND I see persons like yourself who appear to be victims of this control technique.

So far I have learned or think I have learned that gaslighting can be as mild as a Jewish Mom's Guilt Trip or as heavy duty as the situation you are in (my opinion).

All the best.

Larry

Passive/Aggressive behaviour is virtually always learned when kids are young teenagers and want to thwart their parents (especially Mom) without getting caught, without suffering consequences, and without looking like they did anything wrong.

Unfortunately, some kids get stuck in this phase and continue into adulthood with the emotional maturity of a sneaky 10-year-old.

That's why your WH hates POJA. He hates it because compromise is for grownups. Ten-year-olds want what THEY want and care nothing for what anyone else wants.

Unless and until your WH wants to learn to relate to other people, especially his wife, like an adult man instead of a like a sneaky 10-year-old, you can expect his selfish immature behaviour to continue.

The only thing YOU have to decide is whether you want to live that way or not. HE will keep on this way unless the consequences become too great for him to continue. And that's HIS consequences - not yours. As you have seen, he cares absolutely nothing for your pain - only his own.

There are some things you can try with a P/A, like calling them on their behavior. There is a lot of info on this on the MB thread in my sig line. But good luck. Some people are so addicted to P/A behaviour that they are simply not capable of functioning any other way.
Mulan

cfc,

I don’t have any impression that you are a bad person. I do think you have some problems with self-esteem and I think your belief in what it takes to be a good person is misguided. You are out of balance. You need to take and want to take but doing so gives you a sense of guilt because you think that to give give give proves your love. Self-sacrifice is your standard. It isn’t healthy. I think that your husband’s behavior and problems reinforces your need to be a victim so much that the relationship is near equilibrium. So you have a totally dysfunctional marriage that pretty much works. I think if you could get H to cave on one issue (i.e. not go to bars), you would stop right there and consider yourself ahead of the game.

H says you can have your own life too. How would he react to you having an A of your own? Most people in your sitch would be pretty vulnerable. Oddly enough I think you are a million miles from having an A. Why? Because having an A would take away your status as a victim. You would no longer be the longsuffering martyr wife sacrificing all for hearth and home. You would lose your right to be what you have worked so hard to achieve. You would no longer be able to consider yourself as noble a woman as your mother. I’m don’t know if you get on well with your M or not but I bet you respect at least that part of her. My mother was/is like you. I feel like I have known you all my life. Her mother was serious P/A. I was so happy for my mother when her mother (my grandmother) died. I thought she would finally get the peace I thought she deserved. She didn’t. She just found her much needed conflict elsewhere with other family members.

IMO you are a good person. You also have a lot of problems that could be fixed. I think you need to get help through IC to make yourself a better person (one with self-respect). Or you can continue the way you are and nobody would think any less of you if you did. Nobody is perfect. We all have our hangups. Most of us find a way to be successful in spite of them. But if you do get help and you do start to make positive changes in your life, I see possible divorce in your future. If you change, you will upset the equilibrium. To regain it, H would have to change too. He certainly needs to. But will he? You seem to think he won’t. I can’t speak for his behavior. I don’t agree with it. He does need to grow up.

Think of your marriage as two people on a seesaw and each is on a unicycle and juggling four bowling pins. You both have your own balances and also have to keep the M in balance. It is pretty tricky even in the best of circumstances. You can’t change him. He has to want to change himself. But if he does change and you don’t, you will also be out of balance.

I was just wondering...is there any chance that your husband is an alcoholic or an alcohol abuser? A lot of this sounds like alcoholic behavior to me...the yelling, name calling, blame shifting, happy only when he is partying, etc.

Just a thought....

BTW my mother actually got pleasure from self-pity. It was an EN. Complaining about her short end of the stick made her feel good. You are in a viscious cycle IMO. My mother lived reasonably successfully all her life that way. Her children paid a price, however. One of them is days away from paying the ultimate price.

piojitos,

"I think if you could get H to cave on one issue (i.e. not go to bars), you would stop right there and consider yourself ahead of the game."- You are probably right. In fact for many years and still it is the only issue that we argue about. BUT I have never felt loved or cared for from my H. So basically he has the bar issue and I have the need for more intimicy. I would fight for one, but not for the other. I would fight for his pain, but not my own. In the case of my need for intimicy, I would rather make an excuse for him (i.e. he is not capable and feel sorry for him and his condition). I found it very helpful to read Mulan's link above about passive agressive behavior. I feel much better about dealing with the whole situation. I think it is difficult though because it isn't that H doesn't want to care, it is just that he is uncapable. By saying that I have just made an excuse for him (placing me as the victim again didn't I?). Wow it is a hard cycle to break.

In reading the website, I felt that it is difficult to deal with this type of behavior in a spouse. I don't want to be the person who is the victim, my mom too played the victim, but for things that were really not a problem (She had to turn things into a problem because there was not enough conflict). Eventually, it pushed my Dad into an affair which ended the marraige and made her the ultimate victim. I never admired anything about my mother except her ability to comfort us when we were sick. In fact, I have tried very hard to not become her! She was a very selfish victim. We were all to suffer due to her problems. I fact A LOT of why I am so accepting is because, I don't want to be selfish like her!

How would he react to you having an A of your own? H has actually suggested it and says that h doesn't care what I choose. H also says that if I had an affair that he would have left me. He has no idea why I stayed. My response was that I love you enough to see us through this.

I do want you to understand that I feel that I am playing the victim in some ways ( think we all do). But, I don't feel that I play this roll all the time. First of all, I almost had a revenge affair on my H. After, I found out, he left for awhile and I called my ex-boyfriend. I could have easily had an EA with him and still want to, but When I read Harley's SAA book, I realized that I could hurt my H and stopped phoning him and asked the same of him. Again that is why i can understand why H felt badly enough to have an A how awful to feel that badly that you need to hurt someone else, it really is sad). Secondly, I imagine the victim taking a more passive role. I on the other hand, am reading book, visiting the website, trying to find a counselors. This is not a victims stance. Yes, a victim will complain to get pity, but will not do anything to stand up for themselves. I feel that I fight everyday to try to take myself out of this situation. Now that I have discovered what is really going on here and how i can deal with it, I definately will not be playing the victim anymore. In fact tomorrow, I have to go to get a mammogram for a lump that has developed, I am a bit nervous about going, so I phoned my H (knowing he has work tomorrow) I asked him if he would go becauseI am nervous and would like some support. H's response: hmmmm well what time? I tell uh well uh hmmm let me see.... for about 2 minutes... I finally told him you know what forget it I will go myself and hung up! Of course, I did call back and have an argument with lots of DJs regarding his ability to show that he cares. H is now not coming home again and says he is fine with a D. I probably should have left it at I will go myself. It is just so hard to deal with some things alone.

"H would have to change too. He certainly needs to. But will he? You seem to think he won’t. I can’t speak for his behavior. I don’t agree with it. He does need to grow up." -
That is what makes it so hard, I am so scared to upset the balance, not because I want to be the victim, but i am not sure what is more painful , delaing with the what is goign on now, or dealing with the pain of divorce. You are right, I do not forsee him ever changing. Why should he? I mean if he leaves the relationship, he will have every freedom that he has ever wanted. I wonder if that is more important than his family? especially when you have felt under control for so many years. And that everything associate with us is work for him. I hold on not to be the victime, but to show him that things can be good for him if there is change, but we do need help in getting there! Oh and are you willing to share more about what happend with your sibling? i am concerned for my kids.


sickofthis- "I was just wondering...is there any chance that your husband is an alcoholic or an alcohol abuser? A lot of this sounds like alcoholic behavior to me...the yelling, name calling, blame shifting, happy only when he is partying, etc." When I read the information about passive agressive behavior, it states that they make be involved in something habitual. Yes, alcohol is his choice, but he hasn't had more than 1 drink a day for while (since he found out about his heart condition). It helps him avoid reality!

Mulan,
"The only thing YOU have to decide is whether you want to live that way or not. HE will keep on this way unless the consequences become too great for him to continue. And that's HIS consequences - not yours. As you have seen, he cares absolutely nothing for your pain - only his own.-


So what was your response to this??? And how did you deal wth him accepting his consequence because consequently, it affects you too?

Hi CFC

Sorry to get involved late - apologies if this post is a distraction from the other great help you're getting.

Squid has always loved her independent behaviour. Her sport and sports get-togethers were very precious to her. Eventually she had an affair with a sport particpant so I was right not to like it all these years.

I never prevented her from going for years because she'd say I was controlling etc, she needed some time away. Seemed reasonable.

Thing is THEN I didn't prevent her doing this because I didn't want to be seen as controlling or unreasonable.

Pathetic huh ?

Since her A I STILL don't prevent her going out if she wants to. But the reason is different.

My objective is NOT to have a wife who stays home, but to have a wife who prioritises my hurt over her fun.

I want her to CARE enough to voluntarily stay home, or do something with ME instead, not just stay home and sulk and resent me.

A big difference since her A is that I have personal boundaries in place. Being knowingly hurt is a boundary I will not tolerate being violated for very long.

I explained this to Squid. "You can go anywhere, do anything, but I will decide if I want to be in a relationship with someone who does things knowingly that hurt me".

Now Squid hated that. She would much rather I banned her so she could resent me for it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But everytime there was an opportunity for her independent behaviour that would hurt me, I would raise it as a POJA.

To begin with, right after d-day she would rebel. But quite soon she'd start asking me if I minded. ( not for permission, but to find out if I minded - for POJA ).

Now she doesn't even ask to do stuff that she knows are majorly hurtful, including overnight Karate tournaments, Karate social evenings without spouses etc.

And she POJAs almost everything with me now.

The final frontier is Local karate tournaments. She thinks that I SHOULDN'T be hurt by her refereeing them. We are working this through right now.

Also, her transparency has built up my trust to such a level that she goes out socially with her GFs and sisters with my blessing ! She txts me to let me know where she is and is careful to ensure I know of any changes and who was there. Without complaint.

So . Lots of words, but what am I saying ?

In summary : It is a boundary of mine that my spouse should place my heart's ease above her pleasure. If Squid violated that boundary persistently even now I'd quit.

You need to determine if this is a boundary of yours , or if it is a wish.

Big decision cfc.

All blessings.