That is truly flawed logic. If a large group of people are hanging out having a great time at a party and one fool comes in an destroys the party for everyone else, albeit not doing anything that could have him forcefully removed, does that mean eveyone else should leave and let this fool destroy the evening for everyone else?

Maybe in your world, but not mine. He should get a swift kick in the azz and sent packing so others who are there "legitmately" can continue on with their evening.

And by the way #3 is the correct answer and IT's NOT MINE, it belongs to a higher power.

GQII is not a forum of "pros" ... ADULTERY MARRIAGE ADULTERY .... clearly begs for a PRO

"grapeape"? Why resort to insults and name-calling Mr. W?

Pep....I think your suggestion to refer folks to the professionals is a very good one. I'm not sure it will prevent problems but it is a better way of dealing with the problems that do arise. In any case, it is greatly preferable <to me> than insults or namecalling.

Every adultery situation begs for a PRO, not just affair marriage problems.

MrW. I'm not sure we are on opposite sides of the debate with agreement on the principle, but that's not important.

What I'm seeing here is a bunch of people who preach here all the time, yet after insisting "hate the sin, not the sinner", refuse to apply that concept to themselves when they are offended.

If someone has a major crisis due to stumbling onto a thread where an attempt is being made to help an "AM", then maybe that person shouldn't be here at all at this point. Sounds to me like the best solution is professional counseling.

The message of intolerance that is being sent here is very unpleasant.

me too

Come on...Grape Ape was funny.


From the Laugh O lympics fame

W

Okay, I will bite. THERE IS INTOLERANCE!!!!!! There I said it and its not a bad thing!!! That is what is wrong with this country today too much damn tolerance for anything anyone wants to do that makes them happy regardless of the fallout to others.

I am intolerant of someone having an affair, destroying families, leaving kids behind and their future in jeopardy, lying, cheating, stealing, and so on. I am intolerant of that and damn glad of it! If people would be more intolerant of a lot of things in this society it may be a better world in which to live. An affair marriage with never be legitimate in the eyes of the Lord. People who support, enable, defend, legitmize, etc are causing the sinner to continue sinning. If they truly want to repent they need to get away from the affair partner, marriage (no divorcing an affair partner is not a sin because the marriage is illegitmate to begin with).

BUT in the event that an affair marriage is determined to seek help I certainly don't agree that a web site littered with the broken hearts of men and women and children who have been betrayed and devestated should have to witness it. Go somewhere else for help. (another board, MC, etc.)

Hope,

Problem is...another board, for AM's, in and of itself, legitimizes adulerous marriages.

They can go to an already existing quiet board, maybe the divorced/divorcing board OR, preferably, call the Harleys.

Edited to say....they should CHOOSE to go elsewhere, they don't HAVE to and WE can't make them. IF they choose to stay, NOBODY should choose to criticize the advice and suggestions they WILL get. They aren't victims of our words and perhaps, seemingly harsh criticisms...they become volunteers by their choice to stay. GQ II does represent what the real world should represent. I only WISH Zog, Justjilly and all the affair marriages had received and heard the message YEARS earlier...it's to bad they only come to hear it and TRY to understand it once it, predictably, happens to them.

W

Agreed Mr. W. I don't care where they go as long as it is not in plain view of men and women who have been devestated by the VERY thing they are trying to "save". Perhpad professional counsling w/ the Harley's is the best plan. I don't begrudge them getting help but not at the expense of the many other BS's on MB and GQII

These forums encounter an incredibly array of situations that beg for more than the forums are truly equipped to handle. Sexual addiction, physical abuse, diagnosed & undiagnosed mental illness, spiritual loss, parental child abduction, financial crisis. Suggestions are usually made to contact a professional, but the acknowledgement of that need doesn't stop the thread or the ongoing suggestions/advice from the forum participants.

IMO, giving amateur help for an affair marriage has much less cause for concern for the amateurness of the forum advice provided than does several items from the above list.

So, encouragement to call a pro is always good advice. OTOH, evidently we as a group in general don't hesitate to march in with our amateur advice in what (to me) are much more critical issues.

All that is a long-winded way of saying, how is this any different? (Other than the offense it is causing to some?)

I think that depends on what your host chooses to do. We're guests at the party and don't get to determine who is allowed to stay.

I agree hopeandpray. How do you think we can best accomplish that when the policy of the forum doesn't? I don't think people should be forced to tolerate what they find intolerable and I can certainly identify with those who find A-marriages intolerable. Currently the forum provides the choice to read or post, it includes moderation, as well as an ignore function. We may need a higher level of protection, or another layer of protection....but I don't consider insults and namecalling an attractive solution since they escalate the problem and create additional harm.

Hope,
Rather than work to change a board that has worked very well for years(without your direction, thank you very much) to fit your personal agenda, why not just create your own forum where you can personally screen all participants to insure conformance with your personal views? I know you'd be much happier.

Is it also your position that only marriages "valid in the eyes of the lord" be helped here? What about well-meaning atheists or Buddhists or Native Americans? I meet the first category and my marriage was helped to recover here by the caring, non-judgmental people who were here before.

Today's crowd of *experts" would make me uncomfortable enough to leave if I found myself in the position of a BS now. I don't meet the "god test"...

Heartpain..I'm glad to call myself a Christian..but I'm been listening and agreeing with your viewpoint on this...just encouraging you not be judgemental about us BELIEVERS..OK?..a person does not have to meet the GOD-TEST for me to try to help...

Many of your positions/entries overlap a great deal. For example #1, #2 and #3 are all simultaneously true. Repentance and sinning no more = ending the arriage. Also, I don't understand some of the selections. #22 for example seems to be a double negative. Didn't know how to answer several like this.

This would be a very difficult poll to interpret. Nothing is orthogonal.

So, my opinion in a nutshell: arriages are an affront to the sacrament and covenant of marriage. There is no way they can be justified or rationalised or normalised. Not time, not children, not active MB support, nothing. Nothing will ever make any of them a marriage worth my time and effort.

Further, if MB starts supporting arraiges as a rule, then I don't want to be here any more.

I will not tacitly support them by remaining silent.

Worked very well, that could be, but everytime I have seen someone start a post on affair marriages it HAS NOT worked well Heart. It becomes a backdrop for personal opinions, feelings, and stong emotions with none of them aimed at helping anyone. How is that operating effectively?

I don't want to screen anyone. I am sure that Dr. Harley will ultimately decide the fate of affair marriages on MB and pariticularly GQII, not me and rightfully so since it belongs to him.




I am sorry but I can't relate from the perspective of buddhists, native americans or certainly atheists, BUT if you read my posts completely you would see that I am not against people of any religion or no religion getting help for whatever ails them, affair marriage or something else. I just said I don't feel that this is the forum nor do I feel that any discussion of an affair marriage will be productive in this environment. That's it.




I don't claim to be an expert and I doubt anyone from either side of this matter would claim that distinction. If they did, they would of course be wrong. I do know that expecting a board full of BS's to be sympathetic to the downfall of an affair marriage is unrealistic and not plausible in most cases. As far as meeting the God test, that's between you and someone with far greater authority than I have and something that you will resolve itself in time one way or the other.

The default position is to leave it as is. Of course, "as is" has resulted in a furor.

Is your opposing stance that we should strive to make this place less civil since you have an issue with "nicer"?

It's clear that Star is not the only participant to look for some solution that might be less devisive, so I fail to understand why you want to try to whap her about the head regarding nefarious personal motives.

People of good intent such as Bob and Star can disagree and still be people of good intent. What do you gain by insinuating otherwise about Star?



You should be thankful that betrayed wives did not give your wife the same quality of "help," in the same amount and with the same intent.

I agree. I don't see how throwing out disrespectful judgements or assumptions about the personal motives/agendas of others could be considered helpful.

Mr. W certainly doesn't need me to defend his position. He is more than capable of that.

But, see my quote above. No body here has to like this inevitable truth. See it's still the truth whether people like it or not. So therefore, if this is the truth, WHICH IT IS, then no real, meaningful, and helpful discussion regarding helping an A marriage can really take place without the many BS's either not participating, reading, etc and without the many WS's taking solace in the fact that A marriages deserve to be protected, helped, legimized.

I think these are solid truths about human nature. That being the case, I see nothing productive coming from helping a "few" A marriages in favor of the pain it may cause many, many BS's and the damaging affect it may have on the mind set of Wayward or Formerly Wayward spouses looking or trying to do the right thing.

Interesting poll. (Quite a lot of work you did there, star*!)

It takes a certain kind of person to come here in the first place, to lay themselves out so vulnerably, and then to stay, no matter what is said or done.

This place is a highly concentrated mix of personalities, and if you can't stand differing opinions (some that will be about YOU) then you'd be best to find somewhere else to go.

I've been here since 1999 (off and on) and have been at the top, at the bottom, in the middle and all around... been loved, been hated, been supported, been dropped on my head...

One thing I've come to realize is this: While real live relationships are built here, it isn't exactly like real life. If I died yesterday, how long would it have taken anyone in my internet communities to notice I was gone? Would anyone send a card? Flowers? Maybe, but probably not.

I was absolutely shocked recently when I saw an "old-timer" and said hello... and was... uh... well, shunned. Ignored. Back in the day, we'd talked A LOT. He IM'd with my then-H. We were CLOSE, or so I thought. It stung, but did it make me cry? End my life? No. Why? Because I've come to learn that the internet, and boards like this in particular, are like going to the front of the church and telling your sins... and people love you back into the fold, or push you out. And really, although the person might need some prayer... what they might really need is some professional help to learn to live in their own skin.

Like Pep said, around here, it would be a really good idea for many of our posters to GET PROFESSIONAL HELP. So many hurting people here... the potential for harm far too great (in my opinion)... a discussion board is no place for healing... again, my opinion... the healing has to come from WITHIN... support? yes... healing... best done with a professional.

PS: Hi heartpain! Long time, no see! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />