I think more to the point is that while recovery may truly take place there is NEVER (I said it...) getting over the person you loved more and trusted more than anything in the world; betraying their vows, leaving their family for someone they barely knew/know in a lot of cases, sacrificing all for what in 97% of the cases ends up being a dead end, turning a deaf ear to the people in their lives that had been there for them for years, and more.

You may survive, recover, rebound, etc. but I don't think you truly ever forget what happened. I think some will say that they have but in truth I don't think its at all humanly possible. Kind of like being in a war and all the atrocities that go on in such a thing and then after hours and hours of IC, self help, healing, time, etc saying I am recovered and don't remember much nor has my VIEW been shaped by my experience in battle. Highly unlikely anyone can ever truly say that and I propose it to be no different for BS's of affairs. Recovery is possible, a great marriage is possible, like Phoenix rising from the ashes to draw an analogy, but to think that people haven't been changed and shaped forever by the road taken to get there or the defining event is, imo, to be naive.

Pep:

By far my favorite line from that article:

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

I completely agree with you, HAP.

I'm a combat vet. And...I too have been changed by my wife's affair. My views of infidelity have been greatly changed by my experience. My views of people in general have been greatly changed by my combat experience. I'm not the same person I was before I went into combat...I'm not the same person I was before my wife's affair.

I wholeheartedly agree with your point.

I won't ever forget either of these life events. But I DID (and still DO) have a choice on how those events will influence my life going forward...how they'll influence how I treat and deal with other people in this world.

I was gonna stay out of this discussion. Maybe I still should. But my thought is along these lines:

What we're missing here is 'speaking the truth in love' (Ephesians 4:15). Yes, many have spoken the truth in the discussions about A-marriages - affairs hurt. They cause pain to many. But I feel that what is missing is speaking the truth in love. Name calling, mocking, and the many hurtful things MB'ers have posted make the underlying message of that truth difficult (and perhaps impossible) to 'hear'.

Ephesians 4:29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.

Thankfully, this thread does not seem to have that level of animosity. I hope it can remain that way.


[color:"white"] - [/color]

Well, if you've pissed then your Depends need to be changed...

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shaddup

So much for this thread! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Just kidding! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Nope. That's me. Appy's W's VLTA *only* lasted 10 years.

Owl:

I feel personally recovered. I feel no real hurt anymore from my W's VLTA. However, one of the ways I got 2 this point is that I am no longer emotionally as invested in my M as I was before I knew of the A. That isn't 2 say I'm not fully invested in our M, from a moral and integrity standpoint. I am, or I wouldn't stay.

I do believe that it will take much longer for my W 2 personally recover from the VLTA, and I further believe that it will take time for our M 2 fully recover once we have each recovered personally.

It no longer scares me at all 2 contemplate going through years more. The kind of growth I've been experiencing, and that I've been watching in my W (even if it's slow 2 blossom), is enjoyable, not hurtful. I no longer feel the need for immediate action or results. The process is satisfying in itself.

It's also true, I believe, that I will never forget, and that even our recovered M will never be the same as it was. The innocence it seemed 2 have at the beginning is certainly gone. But we're not. I can certainly choose 2 hold on2 resentment over lost innocence. I choose not 2, though.

-ol' 2long

Owl,

This:

“But that still doesn't excuse the behavior. And this makes me question how 'recovered' some of those posters are. Yes, dealing with this can leave some definite scars...I've got my share of them too. But if the long time posters on this forum can't post without venting that pain, how much pain are they still holding on to? Holding onto that pain is a great indicator that recovery is still far from complete...”

“I'd say that rule of thumb would apply to TYPICAL affairs. A 12 year long affair would be a major exception...not the rule. Nor do I believe that the 'twice as long' would apply in that case. I totally agree it takes time to recover, don't take me wrong.

But I'd also say that if it takes ANYONE 24 years to recover from the affair, then there's not true ACTIVE recovery efforts being taken.

You and I both know that recovery takes WORK on both sides to accomplish. No one could maintain TRUE recovery efforts for 24 years...I don't see that happening.

Plus this:

“The lion's share of recovery is typically completed in the first two to three years...subsequently; the pain should massively subside correspondingly. If its not, this should be a major indication that true recovery isn't taking place. If you're still hurting badly enough to take it out on someone who's not directly tied to the source of your pain years later, you're not recovered from the original wound.”

leads me to believe you do not know what you are talking about. Until half your M is adulterous, you have no valid opinion on what it takes to recover from an LTA. Until half your adult life is consumed by this “event”, as you call it, you are ignorant of the full, true life-changing effects.

There seems to be a lot of meaning in your posts. In fact, your posts lead me to believe those of us recovering from LTAs, and who do not recover in your timeline should not be on MB either. My take-away is you think I should shut up and go away.

For the record, I have not posted on zog’s thread. I have had my two or three post say about airrages in general inside these related discussions. But, I am certainly not taking anything out on anyone. I would believe what I have posted about affair marriages even if I stumbled across this site having never experienced an affair.

And I really do believe to the core of my being that helping an arriage survive its own internal adultery cheapens marriage in general. It is giving aid and comfort to the enemy. It is caving in and selling all BS down the river. Even yourself.

I will not be an active member of a website that supports such behavior. It is a matter of principle.

In one thing you are right, however – my position on arriages says a lot about the state of my recovery. I am no longer a doormat. I know who I am and what I will accept and what I will not accept. It indeed has everything to do with my recovery. And a pretty good recovery at that.

ed: I stay in my M because I do not believe I can ethically or morally abandon my FWW. I believe I should spend the next half of my life tending to the greater good of my family. I believe my FWW is so broken inside, and has been for so long that if I were to D her she would not survive. I believe I still love her, it is my choice to do so.

She has lived for so long as a continual adulterer she will need the next 10 years to recover a lot more than I will. I cannot in conscience abandon her during her need, no matter how long it takes.

Oh, and the timeline for recovery taking as long as the adultery lasted is directly from Torn Asunder, by Carder. Hardly a statistic pulled out of someone’s nose.

with prayers,

Not at all. I think that everyone impacted by infidelity has a right to be here...regardless of where they're at in their recovery. I consider myself and my marriage recovered...and I have every bit as much 'right' to be here as the first time poster. As do you. In fact, you bring a wealth of knowledge to the table.

And I would agree...I've not been in an LTA, so my knowledge on that is based on what I've learned, not what I've experienced. You've got that experience...which is another reason why your presence here is not only your 'right', its beneficial.

You've voiced your feelings about 'arriages' as they're being called. Understood.


That's entirely your choice, as I face the same choice as well. As does everyone else on this site. At the end of the day, how do you reconcile that with what Justuss posted on Bob's thread? Are you going to leave? Or are you going to stay, support the threads where your input would help others, and abide by the guidance of the moderators?

Personally, I don't want to see anyone leave. Leaving deprives posters that need assistance from your input. If your feelings are that you can't assist them because you can't stand SOMEONE ELSE posting on this site, then its a loss that everyone will suffer.

Hey, my H was unfaithful (multiple OWs) for 17 years. By the symmetry argument, I still have 12 years to go before I can contemplate recovery....

But I look at the AM threads (rarely post) and try to learn.

Pep's point about adultery being written into the deal between AM partners is one of the few apposite remarks produced by this debate.

But few AM posters ever acknowledge that deal.

I am fascinated by the ways they twist and wriggle to escape the truth that they tacitly accepted their spouse's entitlement to cheat at any point.

I am fascinated by the rationalisations, evasions and contortions..because....I want to be able to recognise them in myself if I am ever tempted...

I am 12 years from recovery and the recurring rage at the insult leaves me chronically vulnerable.

I don't see happiness, or self-esteem, or joy in any of these AM cases. I see a clutching at something that 'looks' like happiness.

It is a constant reminder to me of where I don't want to go, no matter how mad I feel, how justified in taking, how aware I am that the world would 'understand'...

The pain of AM spouses, down the line, is my biggest disincentive to straying down that path in a moment of weakness...

In many ways, I think we should be grateful that they're here.

They're certainly not an advert for infidelity.

Or do some think they are?

TA

they advertise TURDVILLE

confession:

I had to look up apposite <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

me 2

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm British. We sound like that all the time.

TA

I'm impressed with TA

nice post, TA

"They're certainly not an advert for infidelity."

They're not an advert for marriage either.

They're not an example to hold up to anyone for any kind of caring, intimate relationship whatsoever.

If the advice, recommendations, and perhaps even, yes, help they are given here were for them to work assiduously on fixing themselves, never mind their affair marriage then I think their being here has a beneficial effect for everyone involved.

But to use MB methods to further what I see as no more than a VLTA with a piece of paper, well, no. I can't go there, nor can I approve by silence.

MB methods helped me end a VLTA that would not die. It was almost like divine intervention. I can't stomach cheapening such tools to help an affair of any ilk.

MB posters helped me understand my own feelings of betrayal and what I needed to do to grow, to achieve an enlightenment, to become someone who could stand up for himself. I can indeed see helping any and all in such a way, even BS in a arriage.


You know, there is an MB spin-off site (SYMC) where almost any relationship goes. From affair marriages through gay marriages to even polyamory - all comers are offered advice on how to make it work for them. Maybe these posters would find more open arms for their specific adulterous relationships over there.


with prayers,

TA
Coming from Dudley as I do, as you can imagine I speak exactly like Brian Sewell <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I once dated a guy named Dudley ... he'd been working as a lumberjack and .... nevermind .... this was a veddy veddy looooooooong time ago .... way before I wore adult diapers

Did he "Doo right" by you Pep ?

Dudley was the cradle of the industrial revolution, is 20 miles from Shakespeare's birthplace and is considered to be an amusing rat hole by southern softies like TA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Right TA ?:)