It really takes awhile for kids to start to open up to talk about their feelings, especially to parents. It took my 14 year old daughter 5 months to finally express the anger she has towards her father, and that was with counseling help. Give your sons time. The best thing that you can give your sons right now is stability. Show them that you are there for them and when the time is right, they will talk, but they have to be ready.

I would suggest when you have dinner together one night, simply say something like: Hey guys, I know that this has been tough on all of us, but we have to stick together. I have been worried about both of you. I just want to say that I love you guys very much, and I want you to know that when you want to talk, I will be there for you.

In addition, make an effort to check in with your sons daily. How was their day? What are they doing tonight? Any new developments in their lives? Not only may you get a glimpse into their lives, you are also showing them that you care, taking the time to ask. You may be somewhat self-absorbed right now in your own hurt, but taking the time to try and make a connection will go far with them.

I know that with my 14 year old, we would be sort of going along ok, and then the top would explode and BAM, all of these emotions would come pouring out of her. It's to be expected. The walking on eggshells will eventually end with probably some sort of explosion. It's after the release of emotions that things got much calmer. Watch for these emotional releases and use them to further communication and listen to your kids. It will help to strengthen your relationship between you. I am glad that you have them in counseling, because it will help all of you to communicate much better in the long run.

Hello All,

I have a coaching session tomorrow with SH. I was wondering if any of you wise old sages had any pointers on how to get the most out of it.

I have to head in to work now, but I will check in later.

Thank you.

Missed this from earlier in the day. I don't have any pointers save to suggest you don't hold anything back. The more info you provide SH, the better grasp of your situation he'll have and the better advice he'll be able to provide. But you'd do that anyway.

Good to hear from you old man.

I've been looking over the basic concepts, reviewing SAA, HNHN, and LB. I wrote down, to the best of my ability, we I believe WW and I are. I am sure SH will know how to handle me.

I mentioned to WW that I had scheduled a coaching session tomorrow. I think it took her by suprise. I,m not sure she knew how to react to that. She says that she is still trying to figure out if she "wants" to work on our M. She always seems caught off gaurd when I tell her that I "am" working on our M.

I have to admit, I am feeling a bit nervous about tomorrow.

I've heard people say to take good notes. I'm sure you will be just fine, because you will be talking to an EXPERT in combating affairs.

Thanks Believer,

I baught a digital recorder because my handwriting sucks.

Now I just have to figure out how to get the date to stop flashing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Old man????

Am I being dissed here or what? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Let us know (in general terms) what SH advised, okay?

I had a good session with Steve. The gist of the conversation was about how to get my wife involved in working on our marriage. With the two of us separated at the moment, she feels like she is in a good spot. There really is no incentive for her to want to come back to the marriage. Working on our R would mean a lot of hard work and sacrifice on her part. Since our boys are grown, 19 and 17, and there is no pressure from our families, there is no external pressure for WW to sacrifice. Additionally, at this point, she doesn’t believe that she can be happy with me. In order to get WW to work with me, Steve suggested I propose the “ideal scenario”. “Wouldn’t you agree that the ideal scenario would be for you to be in love with the father of you children?”

Now it’s my job to get her to answer yes to that question. If she says yes, than I can tell her that, “I think I found a way that that can happen, but I need your help. I think the process they follow on MB can work, and I would like you to look at it with me and see if you can find any holes in the process.” If I can get her this far, Steve wants me to suggest that she talk to him. At that point I would have a pretty strong ally.

I offered her the scenario this morning and I asked her to think about it. I plan on talking to her tonight to ask her if she would agree that that would be the best solution. If I can catch her any time soon, I’ll let you know how it goes.

Thanks. It's always interesting to hear what the professionals suggest in particular situations.

Hey All,

I’m looking for some advice. Next Tuesday my WW and I go to CC for the first time. Up to this point, we have not talked about the A. I have made it clear that I would like to save our M. WW has not committed one way or the other. We have spent a lot of time together over the past 5 weeks, but we keep our conversations light and do not broach our more serious issues.

Being that this will be our first counseling session, I am wondering if anyone has any suggestions on how I should approach this.

I'm wondering if I've offended some of the VETs. LG, PB, OWL, MEDC, RES?

I could use some of your wisdom.

LI,

In our first counseling session, the MC asked me what my goal for counseling was...I answered, and then he asked my WH (who was active at that time in his A)...and he answered.

We had separate goals...and that was okay. My MC thought it was doable.

Mine - to save my marriage.

My WH - to get make the decision to leave the marriage for OW; to leave the marriage and be by himself; or to work on the marriage.

I, like you, was in Plan A.

The MC proceeded to explain to WH that in order to have clarity for this important decision, he had to stop seeing OW. My WH didn't remember that from the first session.

First question out of MC's mouth in the next week's session was, "Have you ended it with OW?" WH said no. Why? And he explained again how OW was an outside influence and as long as they had contact, WH wouldn't have clarity for this decision, which affected the lives of his family.

WH broke it off with OW that afternoon, by phone, driving away from MC. He didn't decide for another two months what to do...and he's still with this counselor 2.5 years later.

Weekly sessions.

My advice is to listen, share honestly with the MC and your WW, your stuff. Your goal.

And pray a whole lot.

It was really scary for us to go to MC...to tell a stranger what we'd done, to own what we did and were doing...each time, we were really scared. That's okay. MC isn't a haven of validation telling you that you're right or wrong...it's a place of sanity when you feel nutsy; reasonable when you are experiencing the unreasonable; and a place for your ears to lead your heart and mind...use them well and with focus.

You can do this...even with OW calling WH on his cell as we entered into MC's office...we're recoverying well two years later, and OW isn't a blip on our radar.

How 'bout that? Oh, and don't count your 17-year-old out...we were nearly in the same position, only ours was 14...and he began to act out during the separation and all the turmoil...this matters to your children, no matter the age. Don't count them out, 'k?

LA

LA,

Thanks for your reply. I am a bit nervous going into this session. Part of me expects my WW to use the CS to tell me that she has decided to move on. I am hoping that tomorrow’s session will not be too heavy. I really just want to find out where we are at and begin to formulate a plan.

As far as DS17, he finished school Tuesday. I am hoping that the freedom and the lighter schedule of the summer will relieve some of his burden.

Me: 43 BS
S: 44 WW
2DS-19, 17
Separated 3/1
NC-5/7

LI,

You're welcome. LH gives great advice...so I read along.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Are you still attending meetings? I ask because you fear your WW will somehow use the CS to tell you that she has decided to move on? You see her as that powerful?

Or are you saying you fear hearing she has decided to move on? Are you breathing with your belly?

When you feel nervous, anxious...those are the signals of fear...tells you where your mind is going...where it has no control. Is this MC on board with the beliefs that we can fall in love repeatedly with our spouses? Do you believe it?

If your WW has gone NC for a month, and you've been spending nearly every day together, in parts, in your Plan A (with minor corrections along the way)...where is your fear coming from? Are you back to thinking this isn't what you want? You seemed to conquer your "hurry up and recover" urge...which is natural and normal, btw.

What is heavy? Does honesty feel weighty? Or does the weight come in with decisions? You can choose to stay true to your goal. It's isn't dependent on her decisions. And her decisions change. Make sure yours don't.

BS does the heavy lifting in the beginning. They have clear heads. You may feel like yours is muddled...if you know your goal, feel the rightness into your bones, then you are ahead of the fog, my friend.

Know it.

You have a plan...you embarked on it already. Stick with it. Your goal does not have to be hers...nor hers, yours, yet. Was the point of my story.

Where are you at? You are right here, right now. Those are your markers. You've had a life which was full of making your way forward, fighting to be heard, recognized, understood and accepted. Only now you're finding out you didn't have to fight for it. Hearing yourself, recognizing your own power and limits, understanding and accepting yourself was the key all along.

Stay there. Grasp that you are very different than you were before because you are changing your own beliefs. Know that fear cannot overcome love...both are choices. The choice to react from fear or act from love.

You've been acting from love. Do you like who you are when you? You've learned you choose your thoughts...your beliefs...your perceptions and perspectives. So much power. Don't have to grab it from others nor give it to them. No have to's...only choices. And your choices matter.

My advice tomorrow is to be open...to focus on listening, checking your perceptions against what is actually said. If you feel you can self-soothe through preparation, write out four sentences which contain all you want to share...your goal, your feelings, what you've learned.

Then hold your fear like a small child...know it's reasonable, understandable...and not real. You're not there yet; you don't know what will be said, advised, decided or left undecided (which can be maddeningly as well). Care for yourself tonight with a foot rub, hug your son (if you can find him), speak soothingly and reassuringly to yourself. If you feel embarrassed, do it anyway.

Meditate, pray, and stay present. Be present tomorrow...your fear will leap up...that's okay...hold it and act calmly, as you have been, anyway.

Breathe from your belly a whole lot. God's in this. You are not alone. This is part of saving your marriage. I promise.

Have you been talking with your DS17 about this? How about DS19? You're still the leader. By example. What you share.

LA

LA,

Thank you for your advice and encouragement. My CS is on Wednesday, June 13. This should give me more time to think of what you said and prepare myself.

Last night was a significant night. I went to my WW apartment after I got off work. We were having a great visit. When I arrived, she was a little stressed over work. I listened to her. I didn’t try to fix her problems; I just lent her a kind ear and understanding. She relaxed after a bit, and we had a really good conversation going. We even had a few laughs.

I decided to take this opportunity to do some homework Steve Harley had given me. I asked my wife to humor me. “I want you to answer this question, if you could be in love with the father of your kids, wouldn’t you consider that to be the ideal scenario?”

Her answer was yes. According to SH this was a big step. The problem came when she decided to qualify her answer. “That’s a ridiculous question. Of course the answer is yes, but that’s just part of the illusion.”

“What illusion?”

“The illusion, you know, true love, world peace.”

I didn’t want to lose her here, so I said that may be true, but I think I have found a way that this could be possible. I’ve found a web sight that talks about regaining romantic love, but I need your help. I want you to look at it and see if it doesn’t make sense. See if you can find any holes that I may have missed. (This was all coached to me by SH)
The goal was to get her to agree that this is the ideal scenario, and hopefully to persuade her to Talk to SH.

She became very defensive. She said that she had read the things I had given her. (Some of the articles from MB) I asked her if she had read it all, and what she thought about it. She said that she read most of it and she didn’t think it would work. She didn’t think that we could ever be in love again. “In fact, I don’t know that I ever loved you. I felt like it was a mistake when we got married.” I tried to work with her. I asked her what it would hurt to look into it. What harm could there be in talking to SH?

At this point she told me that I was trying to “guilt her” into getting back together. She said that there was no way she could win. If she decided to divorce me, I would make her regret it for the rest of her life. I would be nasty and mean to her. Also, if she decided to do this, it would only be because I had made her feel guilty, and her heart wouldn’t be in it, and she would resent me for putting her through that.

She wanted to know why I wouldn’t just let her go. Hadn’t I hurt her enough already?
I couldn’t hold back. I asked her who had hurt who. After all, it was she that had the affair and she that left me. It was getting ugly. I asked her if I should just leave. She said that she knew that I was just going to keep after her until she agreed to go along with me. I said that I couldn’t and wouldn’t make her do anything that she didn’t want to do. I just wanted her to look at this option and see if it made sense to her.

I was about to leave, and she began to apologize to me for her affair! She began to say that she was sorry for the pain and sorrow she had caused. This was my opportunity to really screw things up. I told her to stop. I said that a simple apology can’t change what had happened. I don’t know what I was thinking or why I didn’t just shut up and let her speak. She got crazy mad that I wouldn’t accept her apology. I said that she couldn’t apologize until she knew what she was apologizing for, until she knew exactly how she had hurt me.

This is where we left it. I stayed long enough for both of us to calm down, and then I said good bye. As I sat at home last night, I wondered if we could turn it around. I wondered if it was worth it. I feel like I just blew a months worth of progress.

LI,

"I didn’t want to lose her here, so I said that may be true, but"

Beware the butts in the world. Don't take a piece of them. (Really lousy attempt to mirror the world peace thingie.)

What you did when you heard her talk about her work...was validating. When you insert a "but" it negates what you just said..."That may be true" now means, "That's not true." You invalidated what she stated.

Do what you did when you validated...listen and repeat. And listen for her "buts"...she had a crucial one.

"I hear you think that is a ridiculous question. You believe anyone would like to believe they can fall in love with the father of their children and that it is fantasy, is that correct?"

Now...what I'm asking of you isn't easy, though it sounds simple. It's of heroic proportions. Which is why it matters so very much.

Check your perspective, also...you didn't want to lose her here...what are you talking about? Are you listening or manipulating? Your WW just considered and answered THE question...took the seed...allowed the idea to come into her foggy mind and move about. That's HUGE. You weren't guiding her...you were offering her an idea. She accepted it for a moment. Then she negated...which means, with that but, that the answer is no.

This is what the listen and repeat would have looked like:

"She became very defensive. She said that she had read the things I had given her. (Some of the articles from MB) I asked her if she had read it all, and what she thought about it. She said that she read most of it and she didn’t think it would work. She didn’t think that we could ever be in love again. “In fact, I don’t know that I ever loved you. I felt like it was a mistake when we got married.” I tried to work with her. I asked her what it would hurt to look into it. What harm could there be in talking to SH?"

"I am hearing you feel attacked right now, feeling defensive. You don't believe Harley's methods would work for us because you now don't know if you ever loved me and are choosing to consider the possibility that marrying me was a mistake."

Don't ask for her to do something when you're not validating what you hear...that's manipulation...like a trade, IME. You're asking a WW in the fog what harm would there be in speaking to an expert in marriage, when she's decimated hers (this is underneath the fog, still there)...which is TERRIFYING.

That's actually being present, respectful...truly working with her. Hurts like a muther!!! Can you hear that fog? That inside out thinking? Help yourself when you do this...insert choice.

"At this point she told me that I was trying to “guilt her” into getting back together. She said that there was no way she could win. If she decided to divorce me, I would make her regret it for the rest of her life. I would be nasty and mean to her. Also, if she decided to do this, it would only be because I had made her feel guilty, and her heart wouldn’t be in it, and she would resent me for putting her through that."

"I hear you saying you feel guilt right now, that I am trying to manipulate you into recommitting to our marriage. I get that. I can see now how what I said can feel like being strong-armed. Thank you for sharing that with me. And that you see this as winner and loser. I remember that from before your A...I was really key on winning...arguments, rightness, even you. I now realize that loss is real, losing isn't."

"I hear you believe I can make you regret your decisions, make you resent and punish you. I know I have acted from meanness, retaliation and I'm sure that felt nasty to you. I get that. I'm learning how to cherish now, and I really like it."

"She wanted to know why I wouldn’t just let her go. Hadn’t I hurt her enough already?
I couldn’t hold back."

Don't lie to yourself here. Had you been listening and repeating...handing her perceptions back to her respectfully, you would not have filled up from the hurt of them in yourself...by taking them inside you. You could hold back. You could rise above. You could have stated, not demonstrated. No ownership in that. "I hear you believe I hold you. Well, I really want to...I know I don't. I know only you have the power to choose your life. I choose to love you, act from my love. That's my power. I know I love who you are, love being with you, and believe we can fall in love like crazy people, with each other."

"I asked her who had hurt who. After all, it was she that had the affair and she that left me. It was getting ugly. I asked her if I should just leave. She said that she knew that I was just going to keep after her until she agreed to go along with me. I said that I couldn’t and wouldn’t make her do anything that she didn’t want to do. I just wanted her to look at this option and see if it made sense to her."

Own where you hurt, manipulate, punish, unleash and unload. Doesn't make you bad or wrong...doesn't make you worse or better. You remain human, LI. Just a human being who ripples by existing...and being honest with your own choices will enable you to see clearly her stuff as choices. When you see them as choices, you aren't as reactive because you know you have your own.

Now...had you said, "I am incredibly hurt by your choice to have an A. I feel erased from life. I struggle with that. It's really hard for me." That's honest sharing...no manipulation.

Your honesty statements...The Truth...that she chose to have the A...she chose to leave...shook her up. Truth does that. I'm glad you said it.

Not because of her response, not the outcome...because owning your truth and stating the truth are Plan A.

And I applaud you not accepting her apology...keep in mind this is the truth here...that she can apology her tushie off...truth is, you will not accept her apology until she could demonstrate she knows how much hurt she caused by her choice.

You know what turned around another poster's R? Plan FU...you didn't do that. You came close. Doesn't mean you ruined any progress. Does mean you lost control of yourself...and learning why you did will aid you in understanding yourself...where you aren't sharing honestly your own truth.

Another benefit of listen and repeat is that you gain permission to share yourself by listening and repeating what others' are saying. Clarifies, confirms, encourages and supports yourself by separating what is yours and what isn't yours.

You won't know what its worth is...until long after you've achieved it. When you hold Recovery in your hands...you know. Your job now is to see if your goal remains...not based on her response...on your desire alone.

I don't think you broke anything. Maybe broke through. Continue seeing her...continue your Plan A. She expected to have destroyed everything (which, really, she did) and you coming back, continuing, from your choice, is the authentic act of love which demonstrates love is a verb. Loving feelings result from loving actions.

Breaks the illusion...for it IS true love.

Be true love walking, LI. I know you can. Do you?

LA

LA,

You're awesome. The fact is, for the passt two weeks I have been working in IC on empathic listening. I realize that this is a problem for me.

I am supposed to see WW tomorrow to go jogging. I am going to spend some time absorbing your points. Tomorrow I plan to have a short sweet visit with an excuse to leave right after the workout.

LI,

Great to know you're working on it. Sure was a problem for me. For most of my life, when I would listen, nod my head, murmur, "Uh huh?" and "Oh, yeah", I would be told I was a great listener.

ROFL

Was I even listening? Nope...I was DJing all over the place in my head.

You are not alone.

That book I recommend so much..."Between Parent and Child" by Eincott? Well, that's what really helped me with the listen and repeat. I don't call it empathetic listening...because I'm still learning what true empathy is...my thang.

I think your plan for tomorrow is a solid one. I see it as guarding your boundaries around yourself...if you do not believe you can separate your stuff from hers right now, keep it short. I would imagine, from reading your posts, though, that you'll be able to finish the workout, hang for a long glass of water, smile, listen and repeat. Those endorphins will really help!!

Oh, wait...you're the endorphin king...I forgot. You work out a lot. Hmmm. Do you still feel relaxed and open when you finish your bike riding or jogging? I think I read a long time ago that endorphin resistance builds up as you extend your workouts. Just wondering.

LA