If anyone can spare a bit of attention away from the discussion of affair marriages <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, I’d be grateful for some insight into a chronic problem I have with H.

We can’t ever negotiate.

It seems such a simple concept. Two people who need to co-operate with each other, and who are in conflict (or even mild disagreement) about an issue, resolve the problem by listening to each other’s position and working out a solution agreeable to both.

So here’s what happens when I have an issue about something. I tell H I’m bothered, and think we need to discuss it. Just that. He gets defensively angry and then clams up. And stays clammed up. After many days/weeks of waiting for him to unclam, I ask him if he’s ready to discuss whatever it was, and at once he snaps “Well, I'm just rubbish, aren't I? I do everything wrong.” So I ask him what his thoughts on the subject are, and he says “Clearly I’m in the wrong,” (sarcastically), “so just tell me what you want me to do.” And we never get any closer to actually getting his position out in the open so we can negotiate.

Loads of things stay undiscussed and unresolved.

I used to just accept his capitulation, but of course I now know that he stored up huge quantities of resentment against me for the perceived imbalance of power, so it seems vital to me that we negotiate fairly.

But this ‘warp’ seems to happen no matter how I try to manage my end of it – one minute we’re two adults, and the next he’s an angry ten-year old acting as if I’m his parent. I work hard at presenting issues as gently as I can, but too gentle and he just ignores it, too forceful and we’re back in warp-land. I recognise that this is an instinctive defensive reaction carried over from childhood...but he's not a child any more.

(And FYI, when he is uncomfortable about something I’m doing, he never tells me. He’s just picky and sarcastic for weeks, and if I persist in asking him if anything’s wrong, he’ll eventually say “Don’t you think you should <fill in request>?”)

I simply don’t know what do to effect some change in this dynamic. Any advice welcome.

TA

TA - has he read any of the harley material? Does he buy into MB?

No, BigK. He won't read books because he's scared they'll influence him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> He feels that he's convinced by every opinion, even when they conflict! He read SAA right after d-day, and was worried that it might have influenced him into making a bad decision (ie not leaving me). I think he would now deny ever saying that, but it was certainly how he thought at the time.

He's been in two lots of therapy, and several tranches of MC, where all the therapists struggled to make any headway with him at all. His level of resistance is really quite impressive.

TA

TA

Want to know the secret that transformed negotiation between Squid and I ?

Letters.
Non oral, written communication.

Instinctive defence, indignation, shouting - all those dynamics are involved face to face, and serve to obfuscate the object of the discussion But if we communicate by letter / email / txt message that is removed.

Each gets a say in turn.

Each gets time to write what we really mean without shooting from the hip an dwithout being intimidated.

Each feels "heard"

I tried it at the suggestion of one of the vets back when Squid was just in NC and it worked brilliantly.

Even now we have pretty developed discussion skills, we still use it when we don't feel heard. And we almost never followup what we have discussed in writing verbally. Its like its SPECIAL if we discuss it by letter.

Laugh if ya want, but that has been incredibly useful for us.

That's an idea, Bob. I've tried emails in the past, and I know he reads them even if he clams up when I try to discuss them.

I can have a go at putting it on paper.

TA

The secret for us was NOT trying to discuss them verbally as well as by written word.

Its like two levels of diplomacy running concurrently.

Must be a British thing. Definitely a problem in my marriage before and after A.

I reckon so TT.

I was able to introduce really unBritish stuff like POJA and boundary explaination via writing that would have led to cussin' if done verbally.

Squid didn't welcome it immediately but when she realised i was properly LISTENING when she wrote me she saw the value.

I know I develop a certain 'tone' when something pisses me off and it's hard to disguise. After Dday, I poured my heart out on reams of A4 but what a waste of time and effort that was on a wayward mind.

Yep. You wrote to an alien pod person back then.

Its a waste of time to try to reason with an active wayward. It really is.

Its like acommodating a temporary mental illness isn't it ?

TA,

Try a different approach. Perhaps the “we need to talk” poses some risk to him and turns him off. Rather than directing a “we need to talk” statement, simply try negotiating with him about something that’s important to him. Build a bridge and the skill that way first. Then start branching into other areas of negotiation.

TA,

When I called Harley on the radio program, he told me that my husband has a philosophy of marriage that includes the belief that you shouldn't have to negotiate in marriage because his philosophy is I should think, "I care about you so much that I want you to do what makes you happy."

At the end of March, I went to my husband and said I'd had it, that I was leaving in September if things didn't improve. I suggested we each give each other one positive and one negative per day about the other person's behavior and then each month each of us works on creating a habit that reduces the negatives or increases the positives for our spouse. It's not negotiating per say because what we are doing is trying to understand and then each of us is making a decision about how to change our behavior, using feedback that we got from the positive and negative for the day.

It's too early to see if this will work long-term because there are lots of bad habits that each of us has that is negative for the other. Marriage Builders time is a negative for my husband, and I have chosen my June habit to be to limit computer time to 30 minutes per day, and MB only on Fridays.

Giving feedback and then making behavior changes is a way to make changes when you can't negotiate. It's an idea. Your husband, by the way, sounds like mine. Here is a record of some of the negatives for the day of what he said to me:
"You don't care what happens as long as you get to do what you want."
"It takes forever to get agreement from you."
"What you do is up to you."
"You're right, and I'm wrong." (sacrastic)

If you try this, brace yourself. I think the core problem is not inability to negotiate. It is, as Dr. Harley told me, the belief that there is no need to negotiate, that each of us should be able to make decisions independent of the other. If your husband is unwilling to give a positive and negative for the day, you could give him feedback and you could use his complaints to you to decide what you would change and let him know you are making a change to improve the marriage for him.

Cherished

Thanks for your responses. They're making me think.

Slick said:
...which certainly made me think....specifically that finding 'something that's important to him' is a real stumbling block. H will not acknowledge that anything is important to him; if he lets slip the faintest hint that something matters to him, he immediately loses all interest in the something - I have to assume, so that the other person can have no 'hold' on him. This is certainly part of his family culture.

This makes it easier to understand why negotiation is so impossible - to negotiate, both parties have to present a clear desire or goal. If one of the parties simply won't acknowledge, even to themselves, that they have a desire at all...there can be no negotiation.

And if there's no negotiation, he can't 'lose'. The only loser is the one who wanted something in the first place - me.

This is not about style, I'm beginning to realise. It's about power.

Cherished said:


Hmm.

Anyone an expert in power struggles?

TA

Just to give a specific example...

Just this weekend, at a lunchtime reception, H acted in a way that left me feeling that his boundaries with female colleagues were poorly thought out. After we left the reception, I asked him if he'd noticed what he'd done...he denied at first and then became hostile. I suggested we needed to talk through the whole boundary issue...silence. I said that, as this was important to me, I expected that we should find a way to discuss and resolve it...silence.

He hasn't spoken to me for three days. Nothing.

From past experience, I suspect he will keep this up for a few more days, and then resume 'normal' conversation as if nothing has happened. And then, when I point out that there is still an important issue to deal with, he'll look surprised and say "But we discussed that already", and when I refuse to be gaslighted (ha! it is the word-du-jour, isn't it?), he'll retreat back into silence for another week.

What a wonderful way to live a life.

TA

TA,
You don't get someone to negotiate.

You inform. "I'm bothered by..." and then describe the behavior you observed. If you say, "I don't think your boundaries with female colleagues is well thought out", you are forming a judgement about behavior you observed. Instead, describe the behavior in a way that is morally neutral and specific. "It bothered me that you put our hand on her shoulder and then hugged her."

Harley has a saying, "The ball is in his court." He's only used that saying on me about 1,000 times. You can inform. You cannot control.

If he says things like "You're right and I'm wrong", ask specifically about what he observed of your behavior. Try to get past the nastiness and be as detached and calm as possible as you can. For example, "You gaslighted me" is a judgement. What you could say is "It bothers me that you haven't spoken with me for three days." You are giving a description of your feelings and tying it to his behavior. Leave it at that. Say nothing more. It just makes it worse if you try to assess his feelings, thoughts, or intent. What you want him to address is his behavior, and the focus will only be on his behavior if you tell him your reaction to his behavior, not to your assessment of his feelings, thoughts, or intent. The ball is in his court.

Cherished

Cherished, I do believe you were there with us...


That's what my IC said. "He knows what he's been asked to do..."

I didn't tell H that his boundaries were poor - I asked him what his boundaries were. In a fairly tense voice, it has to be admitted. But I think that's a reasonable question.

The ball is in his court.

TA

TA,

Why did you ask him what his boundaries were? There's a judgement in there that his boundaries are inappropriate.

Instead, limit what you say to "It bothered me when I observed..."

If you ask him to do anything or not do anything, he'll be upset. What you need to do is limit what you say to a very, very narrow "I feel (x) when you do (y)."

Cherished

TA- Are you in couples counseling? You should review MB material on negotiating, specifically the Giver and the Taker. As a last resort, WH recommends counseling if you can not learn to negotiate. He also states that if one person uses there Giver to solve an issue, it will disarm the Taker since there is no longer a battle.

Losinit, we have been in more MC than you can shake a stick at. H wouldn't dream of looking at MB material, especially if I ask him to.

I think negotiation requires both parties to WANT something. If one party seems to want nothing at all...is negotiation possible?

Cherished, I should fill in my description. I started by saying "I saw you do X to Y. I was shocked and upset."

Then there was a very long silence, followed by "I can hardly remember if I did or not."

Long silence. I said, "I'm bothered that you can't remember."

Long silence. I said "Do you think you behave that way in other situations?"

Long silence. "No." "Can you tell me why this time, with this woman, then?"

Very long silence. I said "Do you feel it was inappropriate?"

Very, very long silence. I said "Well, how would you feel is someone had done X to me?" "That's hypothetical, " he said, "I can't possibly imagine something that didn't happen." And then he started to get angry.

At which point I said "I think it's perfectly reasonable for me to ask what your boundaries actually are, in relation to women."

Since when there has been utter silence, for over 72 hours.

(And when I say long silence, I mean LONG. I've counted to 17 minutes in the past.)

There was plenty of space in this conversation for him to simply acknowledge that I was upset...but he didn't.

How else can I handle a situation where I am being stonewalled from the moment I say "I felt upset"?

TA

From my perspective, the conversation sounds very familiar. In fact, when I stopped providing words that he could use as gotcha points, he simply filled in what he thought I was saying and continued on!

This is my opinion, of course. As anyone whose been on MB long knows, I've tried a lot of different approaches in our marriage. What I had to realize is that there are many approaches which are counterproductive, and I've found my share of those.

You took the bait. In fact, you took it several times.

First bait. "I can hardly remember if I did or not."
Whether he remembered or not is not relevant. Restate that this is what you observed, and you were upset by it.

Second bait. Silence. You responded by expanding the scope of the conversation -- I'm bothered you didn't remember, Do you behave this way with other women? Can you tell me why this time with this woman? And then the real gotcha "appropriate"

Once you said appropriate, you had revealed a judgement of his behavior rather than a reaction to his behavior (I was upset).

THEN you try to ask a hypothetical question. Again, irrelevant. And he jumped at the chance to say that was hypothetical.

THEN you further judge the situation by bringing up "perfectly reasonable."

I read this and think of a situation I tried with our kids. I told our kids that they all had to agree if they wanted to watch TV. We also had a rule in place that you have to spend 1/2 hour in your room if you hit a sibling. One morning, our 3 year old daughter said, "I only agree if we watch Dora the Explorer." Our 8 year old son was not interested in Dora. At one point, he came charging up the stairs, as happy as can be, "Ellie hit me! Ellie hit me!" Of course, Ellie was now out of the negotiation.

That's what I see with your husband. Glee that you took the bait, over and over, digging yourself further and further into you being the problem with "appropriate" and "perfectly reasonable".

You see, I came to realize that my son was trying to bait our daughter to hit him so that she was out of the negotiation so he could watch what he wanted.

Children are such good teachers of human nature because they are so transparent.

Your job is to not take any bait whatsoever from your husband. You are to INFORM and say nothing other than "I felt upset when you ....". If he says he doesn't remember, you can say that this is what you saw, and you were upset by it. PERIOD.

Let him be silent. Let him tell you what you are thinking and then argue against it. Keep to one thing and one thing only. "I was upset when I saw you..." It is not your job to address your concerns. It is his job. And believe me he'll do what he can to keep the focus on you rather than on his behavior.

I'd let what you saw three days ago pass for now. Give him feedback today on his behavior today. "I'm sad that you haven't spoken with me in three days."

Cherished