My apologies.
Cherished

Regretfully, I did some malicious gossip some years back .... which may be a worse offense. And, it turns out I was confused about who I was talking about so not only was I a gossip, I was a misinformed gossip to boot! Not so good. Not a high point. Not my lowest point either, unfortunately.

But fortunately, I was taught a pretty good lesson, one I needed. I was just surprised to have you mention my name as a reason you thought it was OK to "cut and paste" from a private board. I do "cut and paste" all the time, but not from any MB private places. Glad to clear that one up.

PS



no problem hunny

Pepperband,
I do apologize to you in particular. Sometimes people post the same thing on the private forum as they do on GQ II, and it may be that that's what you copied -- or I misremembered who I saw copying from the private forum. I should have stayed out of the whole discussion, however. It just wasn't my place to be copying someone else's email.

Aphelion,
My husband has asked me to be off MB, but it was I who decided to go off -- except for 1/2 hour every Friday. In 1998, he pushed on my skull so hard that I have a noticeable lump there to this day. After that, I tried to support him in whatever he did -- until he openly was showing more care for this woman than me. That's how I ended up with a broken arm.

It's been five years since the affair was exposed, and I was at the point of a nervous breakdown. I was hysterical for years. What has calmed me down, at last, is to recognize that I cannot force change on him. It's up to him. As Dr. Harley said, the ball is in his court.

I feel more detached. I do believe that people can change. But it is up to him to change, not to me. We are telling each other one positive and one negative per day about each other's behavior, and there are signs of improvement for both of us. I am voluntarily limiting my time on MB. He's pulled up carpet in our bedroom to reveal hardwood floors, and now he's putting a shelf in my closet that he had planned to do maybe 3 years ago. It's small steps in what is still a very difficult situation, but he is soliciting my feedback on his behavior, and I am soliciting his. It's a very first step.

For me, the affair was so much more devastating than the abuse that I cannot even compare them. I probably would have put up with his treatment of me for life had he not had an affair, and oh it was nasty.

With MB now, I almost feel as though I am dwelling on the worst part of his character. I got caught up in the whole affair-based marriage discussion, and it just drew me back to our discussion after we watched the movie Walk the Line and his saying once that he didn't think there should be laws against adultery because no one would ever get married and my thinking I sure wouldn't have married him if that's how he thought.

He doesn't have a chance if I continue to fixate on the pain of the affair. The affair is over. There's plenty of pain today. I think I need to give him feedback on his behavior and how it affects me and give him the chance to do something about it. On Monday, he got so upset with me that he decided to go to work, backed out of the garage, and rammed into my van. Why was he so upset? I had gone to the grocery store to get milk because milk wasn't delivered on Memorial Day, and when I came home he announced that he was going on a walk with our son for 1/2 hour because I had been gone and he wanted exercise. I said nothing, just went in the laundry room to sort laundry, and he interpreted that I was upset and he got upset that I was upset. I hadn't said anything. I cannot read his mind, but many times I think that he may be trying to provoke me. Silence is my response. Silence. And even then he gets upset.

So, here we are, five years after the affair, and I just need to deal with kids who are now 6 - 13 and in all sorts of activities and a husband who gets upset about all sorts of things. I'm trying to address his concerns one thing at a time and making noticeable progress.

There is no way he could ever make up for the pain he caused me in having an affair, but we have four children to raise and care for and I hope that he will learn to be a caring husband. We are a long way from the type of romantic and passionate love that is the goal of Harley's program, but I do appreciate that he put a shelf in my closet and that he is working on a habit of being affectionate. This afternoon, he drove our son and several other boys to a Scout outing, and as he was leaving, he kissed me. It wasn't his obligatory meaningless kiss. He put his hand on my shoulder and kissed me in an attentive way. That's what I need to focus on. He is clearly trying, maybe because I have backed off somewhat in a belated recognition that he has free will.

In my mind, Dr. Harley's whole program can be summed up that marital love is a commitment of care, a commitment to change your own behavior in response to your spouse's feelings. If you get in habits that are positive for your spouse and eliminate those that are negative, eventually your spouse will be in love with you. Right now, the two of us are really in negative territory, but that doesn't mean we cannot climb out of that pit. It will take time, and it will take the willingness to make changes, one habit at a time.

This Web site has been a life-saver for me. I look back and can read the anguish I was in. Now I feel much calmer. My whole handling of the affair-based marriage discussion just makes me shake my head. Delving into that is not a way to be calm, is not a way to focus on the positive changes that both of us are making. Instead, it's a way for me to be pulled back into the agony of what has happened between us. In a way, what happened with that post just reinforced for me that it's time to get off MB.

I appreciate your concern, and I ask your prayers. I will update my "MarriageBuilders Lite" post from time to time, but I don't think I need this Web site anymore. I have an understanding of what I need to do --
1) Ask my husband for his positive and negative
2) Make changes to reduce his negatives and increase his positives
3) Inform him of my needs
4) Observe what he does
5) Be willing to separate if he doesn't make changes.
That's it. In the end, it was very simple.

Thank you, those who told me that the ultimatum wasn't go to work, those who told me to run from the abuse (Pepperband -- you were one of them), those who asked about our children and asked me to consider the impact of witnessing this horrible relationship would have on them -- thank you for giving me time to get on my feet.

Cherished

C

When you read this next Friday, I hope you can answer a couple of simple questions:


Have you had the lump looked at by a doctor?

Has he hit you or otherwise abused you in the past two years?

Larry

* Cherished

That once nice kiss gives you hope that this unfaithful bully will change ?

How many times have you thought that ?

You're volunteering yourself and your kids for this life because of your eviscerating fear of your H's retaliation and of potential loneliness.

"Hope" is not a plan.

There is nothing decent or noble in that IMO.

Your H needs psych help. He is broken.


All blessings.

I have read that abusive spouses like to create bargaining chips. Ammo for future use, is a better way to put it. Does he do that with his apparent nice actions? I wonder when he will rip out that shelf and hit you with it.

"In 1998, he pushed on my skull so hard that I have a noticeable lump there to this day."

If I remember right, he also hung you over a stairwell by your hair.


Your H does indeed need intense professional help. Why is he not getting it?

Cherished, I bet there are a dozen or so of us guys here on MB, and some of them are FWH too, who would very much like an hour alone with your H to give him some help. I bet you $M we could change him once and for all. Of course, you will have to get used to him speaking an octave higher afterwards. This guy is not a real man, Cherished. He has never been a real man.

OK, enough about him.

Do you have someplace you can go to on a moments notice with your children?

Also important, do you have someone who, if something "happened" to you, would know what has been going on in your house and would get the proper authorities involved? I'd hate for him get away with it if you could no longer speak up.

And a question that has floated around in my mind for a while now. When he broke your arm, you were in hospital, right? How did he get away with that? I am amazed to think nurses or staff in general would think you just fell out of bed. How did he get away with it?


With prayers,

I read this one week later.

The story of my broken arm is disturbing. It was exactly 12 days after serious pelvic floor surgery. Our youngest was 8 months old at the time, and my pelvic floor had collapsed, so I needed a hysterectomy as well as repair to the small intestine, bladder, and rectum. Fabulous doctor, by the way. Anyway, I was in the hospital five days, which gives you an idea of the seriousness of the operation, and when he broke my arm, I still had a catheter bag and couldn't sit down, so I was lying down in the waiting room at the emergency room. The emergency room doctor read the situation right, I'm pretty sure. I was given an appointment at the hospital in three days because of the concern that I would need surgery for the arm (I would actually need three surgeries), and my arm was bandaged. On top of the bandaged was a blue strip. I looked at that blue strip and thought -- that's a signal. I bet it's a signal to the hospital that this is a probable case of domestic abuse. I took off the strip. It turned out that the hospital doctor who saw me needed to refer me to someone else, and I took it upon myself to call around to find a doctor to look at the arm. My husband had to drive me to the doctor because I still wasn't supposed to be driving after the pelvic floor surgery. When I went into the first surgery for the broken arm, I needed general anasthesia, and I covered the bruises on my upper arm with a large bandage. So that's how I got away with it. It sure shows the thoughts of an abused wife. I was ashamed that I had brought this upon myself because I was warned of emotional swings after a hysterectomy, and I had provoked my husband to hit me when I was supposed to have no jarring at all for two weeks, which was why I wasn't even supposed to drive. It speaks very well to the physician who did the pelvic floor surgery that there was no evident harm done. I had to go in for weekly appointments to the pelvic floor surgeon for six weeks, and I said it was due to imbalance. I'm not sure they ever got the word of how serious the injury was. They were dealing with serious pelvic floor surgery, and someone else was dealing with the broken arm.

I do have someplace else to go on a moment's notice. My parents are wealthy and would take us in. I did tell them, four months after the broken arm when I exposed the affair, what had happened. My mother is amazed that I stayed.

Tom feels as though I am running things the way I see fit and his opinion doesn't matter. He has used initimidation to get me to do what he wants. I did have a doctor look at the lump in my forehead, and I had written that it was due to violence. The doctor suggested a cosmetic surgeon. It does change. It used to cover my whole forehead, and now it is down to about the size of two quarters, but it is more obvious because the raised area is now limited to one area of my forehead. I try to cover the lump with part of my hair, since I part my hair on the side.

Abusive spouses do try to create bargaining chips. I've learned that. He tried it this morning when he tried to intimidate me into doing something and if I didn't then we would not be going to his brother's cabin for the weekend. I told him I will not be intimidated -- does he want me to call my sister-in-law?

It may be that I am still in an abused spouse mindset, but I have thought a lot about our situation and think that it is the result of the worst of two cultural influences, the Catholic commitment to stay married no matter what and the secular view that you find your soulmate. Tom basically figured I'd stay with him no matter what he did, and he married the wrong person so he could go have an affair with the right person.

He threw me down in December, and that is the only time he's touched me since he threw me down on my cast in March, 2002. I was blocking his exit when he threw me down.

The approach if giving each other one positive and one negative per day and then each of us choosing one behavior change per month to improve the situation for our spouse is an approach that is for someone who can tough out a difficult situation. I do see effort on his part. He has said once that he sees effort on my part. It's not easy.

One thing I have heard Dr. Harley say on the radio is that about 80% of marriages in which there is domestic violence are in marriages in which the couple live together before marriage. We did not live together before marriage. I have wondered what we have in common with those marriages, and it has occurred to me that it is the unwillingness to separate. When your spouse acts in an intolerable way and you are unwilling to separate, what you do is try to change your spouse. For those who live together before marriage, living together is seen as "the next step" and marriage as the final step. That's why I believe that there is a reluctance to separate. For me, separation indicated a lack of commitment.

I am now willing to separate. His threats of moving out do not impact me the way they used to.

I do appreciate your care and concern. I will tell you that I see changes in our children that are positive. I am teaching them now that I see the tactics of abuse. For example, my 8 year old wrote "I love Ellie" on a handheld printer that I have. The 6 year old said, "L love Ellie" -- "That doesn't make any sense." to me. I explained to her that when you say "That doesn't make any sense", you imply there is something wrong with the other person, and that it is better to say "I don't understand." Well, I was in the car with the 6 year old when this conversation happened. The 8 year old got in the car and the 6 year old showed her the printout and said "I don't understand why you printed "L love Ellie." The 8 year old then explained that it is optional to have perpendicular lines at the top and bottom on the capital I." Our children are picking up from their father the abusive language of "That doesn't make any sense," and to be honest I am facing that I grew up in an abusive household and have the same problem of attack in saying "That doesn't make any sense." I am having to learn and then teach our children the language of respect, of saying "I don't understand..." and waiting for an explanation.

At least part of the reason why I stay in this marriage is that I recognize it is no coincidence that I married an abusive man. I grew up in a verbally abusive household and so did he. Now we need to learn how to show respect to each other and to our children.

One minute timer has dinged. I'm done with my half hour for the week, and I appreciate more than I can say your thoughts. I cannot share with others except my family the experiences I have had with my husband.

Cherished

Nice to see you again, Cherished.

So he got away with it the stereotypical way – you covered for him.

But, you wrote:

“So that's how I got away with it.”

This is interesting. Freudian maybe? You feel you got away with it? But got away with what? Covering for him again? Once more keeping your family together in spite of everything? Avoided shame? What did you really get away with?

You need to tell someone what has been going on all these years, besides your family. Someone who can act in you and your children’s best interests if something happens to you.

Of course, it would be better if he received major help. (Why he is not you did not answer, BTW.) But, in any case, you should have something in place that prevents him from achieving the final solution over you. Maybe a sealed letter or copy of a journal with an attorney? To be opened only after you are gone.


“Tom feels as though I am running things the way I see fit and his opinion doesn't matter.”

Of course. More stereotypical justification of abuse. You have heard them all haven’t you?


“It may be that I am still in an abused spouse mindset, but I have thought a lot about our situation and think that it is the result of the worst of two cultural influences, the Catholic commitment to stay married no matter what and the secular view that you find your soul mate. Tom basically figured I'd stay with him no matter what he did, and he married the wrong person so he could go have an affair with the right person.”

We had this discussion months ago. Athanasius, remember? You agreed your staying in an abusive M is not required of you by anyone. Especially not the Church. Never was. A misunderstanding on your part. So I am happy to hear you are not fearful of ending this. But you know he is greatly afraid of you leaving, don’t you? He will brook no leaving. You are not a person, you are his property. He can leave, but not you. His property.

BTW, your last sentence in the above quote is heard from all WS, not just your physically abusive one.


I sure wish you two would get the right kind of professional help. Is it cost, or is it fear of change?


With prayers in overtime,


“I think the mother models to her son what his wife should accept.” - Cherished

Cherished...I just want to point something out...


There is no "Catholic committment to stay married no matter what".


The sacramental bond of marriage, between 2 mentally and emotionally healthy people with fully formed consciences is not breakable.

That does NOT translate into - you must live in the same household with an abusive man no matter what.

A civil divorce proceeding does not do away with the sacramental bond. The sacrament of marriage is administered by a priest, not a civil judge. It can not be broken by a civil judge.

What you do in a civil court has no impact on the sacramental marital bond, either forming OR breaking it.

You could legally divorce your husband for your safety. The Catholic church would not reject you for that, even though in the eyes of the Church your marriage still exists.

You could legally separate from your husband for your safety.

There is NO PLACE in any Catholic catechism that requires you to stay under the same roof with an abuser who harms you and your children both physically and spiritually.

There is nothing "Catholic" about your choices to stay in harms way. This is about you, not about Catholicism.

The story of my broken arm is disturbing.

Evidently not disturbing enough for you or you would be taking some kind of PROACTIVE stand.

There is something terribly disturbing about this entire situation...and in all honesty, I cannot say that it is because of your H.

You find some kind of satisfaction in claiming your status as a victim of domestic violence.

You wrap it around you like a shroud and you proclaim it from the tallest mountains. You tout these things like they are your badges of courage.

They are NOT badges of courage.

Martyrdom or sainthood....which one are you looking for?


No disrespect intended. It is just how I have seen this being played out for YEARS now.

committed

The laws that require mandatory arrest do hurt the victim. Three years after my husband broke my arm, he lost his job and was offered a job contingent on passing a criminal record check.

Here are two posts from a person on a Catholic forum that booted me off because I wasn't Catholic:
"Love is a one way street because love is unconditional. God loved us although we rejected Him, were unfaithful to Him and killed Him. When we are nice to some one because they are nice to us, it is not love; because, our niceness is conditional to the other party being nice. Similarly, if we love, only if the other party loves us back, it is not love, because it is conditional. Those who exercise true love, love, because, they love love. In other words, they love, because, they love God who is love. Furthermore, they love God; because, in Jesus they have seen the fullness of God’s love."

"To those who exercise love, the privilege to love and serve others itself is the greatest reward; because, that is the only desire they have in their hearts. They are, therefore, exceedingly thankful to God, for performing acts of love through them. God gives us a free gift. This gift is the gift of His own life, which He gave us by sacrificing His own life. It is the only gift that is real, because, it is the only gift that gives us life and is eternal. This gift is the intense desire to empty our own interest and unconditionally serve others.To accept this gift, is to live Jesus’ life."

I know that the Catholic Church would be supportive of separation in my case. What I am saying is that Catholicism can promote the idea of unconditional love which can lead to tolerance of inconsiderate behavior on the part of the spouse and the idea that you should not expect any care in return. "Empty our own interest" is not consistent with the principle of the POJA. To my husband, the POJA shows a lack of care on my part that I would not be supportive of what he judges to be best for him. For me to care for him in the way he wants is for me to empty myself of care for myself, which is something some Catholics do promote.

I don't find any sort of satisfaction in claiming my status as a victim of domestic violence. I've looked long and hard at my own behavior and traced back two generations to my parents, both sets of my grandparents, my husband's parents, and both sets of his grandparents how we could have ended up with the beliefs that we had. And why? Because I don't want our children to suffer the fate we did.

Dr. Harley's whole program is premised on the idea that how you behave affects how you feel about each other. You can choose behavior (care) but not feelings (love). What I had been doing is trying to get my husband to change his behavior. Anyone remember the ultimatum that we spend 15 hours alone together each week or separate immediately? I was told, yes I was told, that that wouldn't work.

Now I am focused on my own behavior, and I am focused on my own beliefs, and I am trying to pass on to our children what will help them in their marriages, if they decide to marry. There was a change in me at the end of March. Part of what played into that was Lemonman's post to me that I should look back three years and see that I'm posting the same thing today. It was all about him.

At the end of March, we agreed to give each other one negative and one positive for the day of the other person's behavior. We also discussed making one behavior change per month to improve the situation for the other person.

Now what I am doing is focusing on changing behavior of mine to be more positive or less negative for him, without succumbing to agreeing to what is negative for me when it is positive for him. I am focusing on two areas in his top five needs. First, domestic support. I am cleaning out one room per month so that it can be more easily maintained going forward. It doesn't sound like a lot, but what I am doing is overhauling the room. For example, I cleaned out the linen closet and washed everything in there. Second, physical attractiveness. I gained more than 50 pounds from when he said, "If it wasn't for the kids, I'd be long gone" on January 3, 2002, two weeks after he broke my arm. Within a few days of that date, I noticed a substantial increase in appetite. I weighed about 155 on that day, and at my all-time high on April 28 of this year I weighed 206.8. My goal is to lose about 1 pound per week. This morning, I weihed 201.8. This change in weight won't be noticeable until about next May, which is when I plan to reach 155.

In the meantime, what is my husband doing? Well, he done some complaining about how "it's my way or the highway" because I'm focused on only one room at a time. I've told him I need the time to change habits. For example, with the computer, I decided to go on only once per day and go on MB only once per week. In preparation, I had to print off my calendar, all telephone lists, and all recipes. A change in habit is not necessarily easy.

Has my husband made changes that are positive for me? Yes, I do see some changes. He's more attentive to my needs sexually. He comes to me sometimes to ask for the negative and positive for the day. He's tried to be more affectionate in the morning, he's trying to say "I feel X when you do Y" instead of saying "You don't care about me at all" when I don't do immediately what he wants done, and he's trying to complain only once per day (although that commitment seemed like more of a backhand way of telling me that I don't listen to his complaints anyway so why should he open my mouth).

There are very few people who would give up on a child, simply walk away and not care about what happens to them. That's how I feel about my husband. I do believe in the commitment to care for life. He seems to have felt that I don't care about him, so why shouldn't he do what he can enjoy his life regardless of the impact on me? Now, in very tangible though non-intimate ways which are completely under my control (domestic support and physical attractiveness), I am trying to show care.

Will it work? I don't know if it will or not. All I know is that I've been in the movie "Groundhog Day" for the last five years, trying to change his behavior, and that sure didn't work.

I'm glad Dr. Harley was willing to counsel me with my marriage. Whether it survives is dependent on my husband's choices. The best advice Dr. Harley gave me, which he gave me over and over again, was "The ball is in his court." I can do only so much. Now, instead of putting any effort into trying to change his behavior, I am trying to change mine.

Cherished