Allow me illustrate:
No courting occurred at all, no "intention" whatsoever. No "approaching" of any kind , and the thought is not something I would even consider.
Seriously guys you are really taking this to weird extremes.
She was 18 when we got married, I was going to school to start a life, and things were going good, or so I thought until recently.
I am hurting badly trying to make sense out of this surreal environment, and I am getting kicked. I am trying to save my marriage with the woman I love.
tnx

patriot and froz -- where are you getting this 11 year thing???

He said they got married when she was 18....he hasn't said how long of an engagement or relationship it was.

There are many cultures (within the US) where is is accepted and natural for marriage at age 18. In my area, there are certain asian cultures where permission is given for much younger girls to get married and/or arranged marriages.

Why don't you slow down on your judgements and name calling and maybe ask some questions before you jump to very insulting conclusions.

Wow.

Any kids or communal property involved?

If not, I suggest seriously considering if you really want to recover your M. A good M requires love, trust and commitment. Can your WW provide that? Instead of investing a lot of time in the long hard road of recovery, it might be better to cut your losses now and open yourself up to the opportunity of finding someone that will give you the type of M you really desire.

Let me show you how the judgement gets made.

You are 35..eleven years ago you were 24. That is when you got to know her via internet.

She is 26...eleven years ago she was 15.

Your sig line says that you have known her 11 yrs married nine.

That means that a 24 year old MAN was interacting romantically with a 15 year old CHILD via internet as per your description.

This interaction was intimate enough to result in you coming to her home to meet her parents and later marrying her when it was legal [Although I seem to recall that she wasn't quite 18 when you married correct?. 26-9=17]

The math is what it is. The only judgement to make is whether or not to believe some pretty thinly veiled attempts to paint the picture otherwise.

I cant think since all this has been happening, let alone why I walked in to the bathroom. I will communicate as clearly as possible ok. Better yet, can you subtract 1979 from 2007 = 28, which she will be this summer. Right now she is 27, we were married in the fall. Thats my math cause I married her, know her birthday cause I have celebreated it with her for the past several years.
My figures are wrong and I appreciate you guys clearing\pointing that out in a rather painful manner because I know what I know to be true, we got married when she was 18 plan and simple.
Can we proceed, are the interested parties happy now? Parents on both sides were A OK with it, in fact let me tell you this much. I had to sleep on the couch and her in the bed until we got married.
I would appreciate your understanding all this without having to infer or imply what it is you believe to be true. I am having extreme difficulty with everything at this moment, and I thought this forum would be sensitive to those who have been betrayed and want to save their marriage. Was I wrong?
tnx

OK...so you are changing your facts around by adding two years and tossing up a pity smokescreen.

I recognise that there are people in the world who do not intervene when a man grows intimate with a child.

Sometimes parents. Hey they don't intervene during affairs either do they. Same attitude.

You asked specifically if people thought that because you married her so young perhaps she missed out on something.

My answer is yes. She missed out on being a child by being involved with an adult.

I am deeply concerned that you do not RECOGNISE that a teenager is NOT an adult.

Noodle:

Thought you left!

HI!

However, you do bring up a valid point and a serious one.

I will make no presumptions of MMBF's early R.

Could he be a pedophile? Solicitation of a Minor?

I do not know. Nor do you. MMBF knows, and instead of finding out this info from MMBF in a manner that would have allowed him to answer in such a way that he wasn't trying to cover his tracks, but be honest about it, it now looks like he is trying to cover something up.

ANd I'm not just jumping on you, Noodle. I'm not jumping on the others either. But if this information had been asked in a manner to clarify the situation and to allow MMBF to state the facts plainly, then maybe we would ubderstand better what is going on.

Did he solict a minor? Don't know. Did he talk to someone under the age of 18 on-line? Definatly. And the nature of that R from the initial contact until she was the age of 18 can be addressed and explored to alleviate MB'ers concerns.

AND then we can jump to whatever conclusion we would like.

MMBF:

The points that Pat92, Froz and N are making are serious. AND I have reservations about posting to you as well.

Please clarify how your original contact and early R developed.

Although this is an anonymous Forum, many of us have been here for a long time and can offer you alot of help to assist you in repairing your M and destroying your WW's A.

We can't check your facts. We just have the ability to read your thread and establish from them your sincerity level.

And if you are not sincere, your posts will be ignored.

Sorry. This is the best place, the absolutely BEST place to get the assistance you seek.

Please be upfront.

LG

Patriot,

Pick your battles a little better, will ya?

And be very careful how you respond.

My W was 17 when we got married (about 6 weeks short of her 18th birthday and her father had to give signed consent for the wedding to take place. If we had driven 20 miles east to Indiana, she could have married of her own accord at 16. We've been married nearly 34 years. It's been in my sig line all along, FWIW.

My grandmother was 16 when she married my grandfather who was 32 at the time. They were together 50 years and 4 months when he died. She never recovered and followed within two years.

In over 20 states the age of consent is only 16. In some others it is 17. In Spain, S Korea, Syria, Nigeria and Argentina it is 13. In N Carolina it was 13 until the law was struck down by a court decision.

Mark

[aside to LG]

Hey LG I have left the other thread pending decision of mods.

Sorry if you misunderstood.

If the mods actively support affairages and require other posters to likewise post ONLY encouragement to remain in them that'll be my time to fly..that hasn't been decided yet and so here we are.

On to the post.

LG...the thing is that the MATH makes him a pedophile whether he believes he is or not.

He doesn't have to AGREE that a 24 yr old being intimate with a 15 yr old is inappropriate for it to be so.

I don't have to TRICK him...he is the one who let it slip in his sig line and intro..and even his subsequent defense.


What is going on is that he became involved online..with a minor..enough to come and stay at her house and marry her.

What else do YOU need LG? IS there an acceptable explanation for that occurance?

Is there some series of circumstances under which YOU would accept a romance between an adult and a child?

I believe there isn't.

I see by your sig line that your son is 14. Would you support him talking with and becoming romantically involved with a 24 year old woman he met online next year or would you believe that it was inappropriate?

Listen.. I am posting this for the last time, and have been honest. We got married when my wife was 18, her family was Ok with it, my family was Ok with it, we have the marriage certificate, everything is good in that aspect.
No solicitation, no courting, no nothing had happened prior, at all no anything! I personally have been having a very hard time dealing with this mentally, spiritually, and physically. It has taken a toll on me.
I am telling you the truth and have no need to hide anything whatsoever. I did not try and cover up anything and don't need to, and in fact provided the exact information so you can be aware of the facts.
I came here in hopes of learning what it takes to save my marriage. I take full ownership for not being so attentive, but I am not a freakazoid! Whereas my WF seems to be with the OM according the information I have, this has cut me deep in my heart!
I cannot emphasize enough about this. Please do believe what I am saying. There is no slip up, my mind is overworked, my eyes hurt, I have had little sleep, have eaten 2 meals in 3 days, and drank roughly 10 glasses of water in that time, while running like a madman trying to get paperwork faxed, emailed, setting up appointments etc. I do not need to get pity from anyone, but try and understand where I am coming from.
I have told you the truth! We all know how good to would have been to be told the truth!
I felt I was among like minded people who are striving to fight for their marriage, and can help each other do so successfully
I beseech you all for help in the most sincere way and am asking for help.
What little energy I have is being spent learning from here, and reading my Bible, praying and asking God for wisdom, and strength because I have been running on fumes for the last 3 days, and being falsely accused and defending myself is counter-productive to my situation. HELP ME SAVE MY MARRIAGE!!!
People I am in dire straits, and want to be with my Wife working towards recovering our marriage. This is way to painful for me and gut wrenching.

Noodle:

That's why I would have the reservations.

But my son could also meet someone, and be acquainted (sp?) with them for a number of years.

If the other party tried to keep it secret, I'm blowing that woman up.

If my son tried to keep it secret, I'm gonna blow him up.

But my son is involved in various activities, that does bring him in contact with older women. Over age 18.

If he was to meet one, and be friends with, that's ok. But that is friends. If is was going deeper, I would have my concerns and would address them with both parties. My son I can control. (OK, not completely! but to a greater extent)

And as he matures, he could end up marrying on older woman. (I did! only 3 years difference, but I was 25 when we met!)

But a 24/26 year old sleeping on my couch? Waiting for my 17 year old? Odd. But I would have to have facts and circumstances to have gotten to that point to allow that. MMBF states that the parents were aware.

And Flamingo? What would her opinion be? That's the kicker. I believe she would go against having a 24/26 YO on our couch! And the POJA would be being used throughout this time.

I will reserve calling MMBF a pedophile just yet. I would allow him to state the circumstances of his early relationship with Butterfly.

I will not be out of this thread just on the info he has given, heck, I might leave for other reasons. But I think that we will discover quite quickly if MMBF was trolling for his butterfly, or it was something that developed over time, in the open.

LG

As an aside, I will also watch for inappropriate same sex friends as well....

Seeing as I remember all too well what D Day was like, I will stand here and say, take a deep breath. Your heart is racing? You are not able to sleep? Eat? Mind going non stop? You cannot breathe.

I spent the first two weeks after WH left my home in a daze.

I went to work. I came home. I sat in front of my tv. Staring. I did not go to bed until 4 am every night. Was up before 6.

I can tell you EXACTLY what I ate that first week. I drank a lot of water, but I can also remember to a T what I had to eat that week three months ago. I managed a bowl of dry cereal. The whole week.

I lost 15 pounds in a week. I paced constantly. My heart felt like it would explode in my chest. I hid it from everyone. I did not talk to a soul. Except for my WH (who at the time, I did not realize was W)

I wish I had this place.

But, I did a lot of reflecting. And, since then, I feel like a million bucks.

Do you have your exposure list ready? What will you say? Your WW will be furious. My best advice to you? Ignore her. She says something to you, just let it go in one ear and out the other.

I learned that from day one. (all by myself I might add) That is why I am so calm right now. Remember. Your WW does not know what she is doing or saying. Be calm with her at all times. Don't try to talk to her too much... she isn't listening.

Expose her affair. Then, wait. She will yell. Ignore. She will threaten. Ignore. She will then probably walk away from you. Let her go.

Then you do what you need to for yourself. Be strong. Live your life. Go out with friends. Do things you always wanted to do, but didn't. If she calls, be friendly and calm. Let her come to you.

Show her that there is a life without her.

I've been doing this for a month now. No contact from WH... he was looking for me last week, but I didn't answer. I went about my business. Then, I dropped in to see him today. Floored him.

I don't know exactly why your story is messed up. Maybe you are over-tired. Maybe you hit the wrong key? I don't know. I just know that if you want help from these folks... getting frustrated won't help.

Be calm. Ask God for strength, courage, and vision. I was given all three of those gifts in these three months. (also... I spent all morning with my heart racing... nerves cause I was going to see WH today... I asked God to help me calm my heart and mind on the drive to his work... He did)

MMB

I'm sorry you've had to spend so much energy defending events that occurred before you were even married and that isn't why you came to MB. You came to this site to get information on how to save your marriage.

You got some good advice when you first started posting. Follow that advice. Read the links on Surviving infidelity and Dr. Harley's basic concepts. Go to the Just found out part of the forum and read those things.Then, get "Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Harley and learn about Plan A and Plan B. Once you have a plan, then you will have something you can begin to do to save your M.

Finally,get to your doctor and let him know what's going on in your life. This is a huge loss-and our bodies deal with it like any other loss. You may have to go on anti-depressants for a time and maybe get something to help you sleep, just for this initial time.

Wow LG,

You sure hesitate on that trigger.

Hope you are never in a situation where you need to draw a boundary BEFORE there is a crisis.

LG,



Even if the parents WERE aware...do you realize how many people, parents included, turn that blind eye of denial away? It happens often...REALLY often.

Next thing you know, you have a bunch of parents saying, "I don't understand why parents would send their kid over to play at Neverland Ranch."

People don't LIKE to see evil...so they simply choose not to. Often they prefer to just say, "Oh, this poor guy is getting persecuted. I think I'll sympathize with him."

That this girl's parents allowed a grown man to spend the night on their couch does not change the math.

I don't see why there is a need to ASK him..."Did you do anything inappropriate?"

Response: "No, I didn't."

There...see! He says he didn't do anything inappropriate!

He is the one who volunteered this information in his sig-line.

Do you believe it morally wrong for a 24 year-old man to pursue a relationship with a 15 year-old child?

I do. And I feel quite strongly that it is wrong, regardless of how many years ago it took place.

Would you really need to POJA allowing a grown woman, whom your son has an online relationship, to come spend the night on your couch?

As for Mark and his suggestion to pick battles. Mark, I pick this one. I believe taking a stand against adults having a relationship with a minor to be a worthy cause.

That it was acceptable 100 years ago (or whatever) is no justification to me and that you acted in the same manner does not make it any less wrong for this man. It only makes you wrong to do it, too.

Froz/Noodle:

I will repost what I put on the other thread:



Noodle:

about this:



Huh???

Am I to lock my son up in his bedroom? I monitor his activities, talk to him about what is going on, discuss with him various boundaries that he needs to be aware of, and as he needs to know them.

At 3 years old, it was "don't talk to strangers"
At 14: "don't sleep with your teachers"
His computer? in the family room for all to see...

However, I don't wish to debate this. This is MMBF's thread.

If you think he is a pedophile, so be it. It isn't up to me to dissuade you from this thinking. It's up to MMBF.

LG

MMB
Wow. I seem to be chllenged with controversial posters just lately.

I will try to be as reasoned as I can.

Some marriages are set for a tough time from the outset because of how they began. Affair marriages are one such. Because they require the murder of at least one previous marriage, and the existential betrayal anguish of at least one betrayed spouse in order to come into being.

They stand very litte chance of becoming fulfilling, long lasting marriages, simply because the attributes two people need to BUILD an affair marriage are not condusive to its success.

Now in your case: similarly ill-starred it seems.

Something of a Lolita syndrome at work here.

I take several inferences from what you have written.

Firstly that it was important enough to you for you to include the words " known 11 years" in your sig. This, I guess, was to show that you have known your W longer than you have been married.

You did not write " known OF 11 years". She was not an abstract neighbbour or local schoolgirl. You KNEW her. You had occasion to communicate somewhat intimately with her , enough to learn about her to the extent that you now declare you KNEW her at that time.

Unless you magically "fell in love" on the day she turned eighteen, you also learned enough to want to become romantically involved with her. From age 15.

At 15 she wouldn't know much outside school. You must have seemed like a very spohisticated and worldly man. Heck, just to own a car and a driving license impresses most 15 year olds.

I bet she was far more impressed by you that the women closer to your own age. And PRETTY ? My ! Sweet and innocent. An flattered too, that such a mature man was taking an interest in her.

I can't tell if you had sexual relations with her at age 15. IIRC the Lolita complex does't always involve sex. The men sometime's don;t like to violate the innocence. But for now that doesn't matter.

The problem with Lolita relationships is that the children who are groomed and ADORED for their innocence grow up very fast.

Their once-worldly and interesting sugar daddy one day appears dull in comparison to the folks they start to meet as they mature and become less dependent on the groomer for their opinions and personality. The have affairs. They break free, And they break the hearts of the men who groomed them.

So I see two problems in your situation, primarily.

Firstly for MB to work, it must restore the dynamics that were in place when the relationship was first fresh and exciting. Meeting ENs , living for each other.

In your case, your W was a child. Guileless and inexperienced. Easy to impress. That isn't there anymore and will never again, I suspect, be as easy for you to impress as she was then.

Secondly She was a CHILD when you started to feel romantically about her. That is seriously dysfunctional.

My daughter is a very pretty, mature 14. Her music teacher is 24. That is one of the few acceptable relationships that an unrelated man should have with a 14 or 15 YO girl IMO.


Now I do detect you are really hurting over this. And I cannot deny that there is part of me that aches for you as it does for all genuinely devastated BS. I guess you truly do not see your relationship history as malign. You just hurt.

But you have created an unsustainble marriage I believe , and it will be hard for MB to fix that.

BTW I would not have accommodated you on MY couch had "butterfly" been my daughter. I would have killed you.

wow this thread got off track...

OP...follow the early advice...EXPOSE...do not beg...cry...get angry in front of your wife. Be firm...be loving...I am sure you are a mess right now...but it will get better...you should get great advice here...your marital problems are not unique and there many marriages are saved through this web site. Good luck!

Let's hope his situation is more unique than you suggest SRT.

LG,

I don't believe that what you have posted as "the plan" wold protect your child from someone who was deliberately predating with them as the objective.


Lock the child in their room? That sort of last resort behavior should not become necessary IF your boundaries cut off unsavory/questionable situations such as intimacy with a MUCH older "friend" before it explodes.

Do you want your child to actually BE taken advantage of and permanently damaged before you just say "no"?

Does the worst actually have to happen before you will drop the axe?

How about protective boundaries?

How about parental boundaries that go beyond "discussing it".

How about going up to the adult in question and saying.."Hi, I'm so and so's parent. Your relationship with my child is unacceptable. Cease and desist immediately."

If they will not you now have grounds for a restraining order etc.

I consider it my job as a parent to KEEP the evil OUT while my child is still a child and does not have the emotional maturity, life experience at an age appropriate level, or discernment to MAKE judgements about people who are MUCH older and WAY out of their depth.

My informed decision is based on all the relevant information athand.. that an adult is putting out red flag behavior and disregarding boundaries that protect children from people like him or her.

I don't NEED to know more than that to act.