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Ever since the A ended my F?WW has not commited herself to recovering the M - stating that she wasn't sure if she wanted to be with me or not; she did not know if she should stay or go. Now I have an answer (well sort of).
On Saturday morning we were sat on the bathroom floor cleaning a hamster cage that I'd just got out of the attic (DD5 was about to get a hamster) when she told me that she now understood what it's all about: she doesn't see me as one half of a couple (with her), but as one quarter of this family (her, me & the two kids). She went on to tell me that she'd 'selected' me as I'd be a good father & be able provide a constant, consistent & safe environment for her & the family & that I’d never do anything to hurt her – nothing to do with me being the one for her. So, since being in a complete family is more important than being happily married, she’s staying.
I don’t yet quiet know how I feel about this. I’m shocked at the revelation that I was selected essentially to enable F?WW to play happy families & feel like I’ve been had. There are a few ways I could look at this:
- F?WW primary ENs are family based so she ‘fell’ for the man who she thought would satisfy them the best .
- F?WW lifelong goal was to be part of a solid & happy family unit (something that she didn’t have in childhood) & she picked me as I’d enable this. This is my current thinking.
They may be more ways of looking at this – I haven’t really thought that much about it yet.
On Sunday I learnt that the EA did probably become a PA, this happened after I ‘let her go’; in mid January I succumbed to what was essentially an emotional attack from her resulting in me saying “I set you free, you can do what you want”. I said this as I was in that dark place that BS’s go after D-day & was grateful for any crumbs that she may decide to toss my way; the one thing that I knew back then was that I was worthless – that every atom in me was worthless. [Aside: I need to say to any new BS’s reading this who feel this way that it is not true (I know this now): you are not worthless & shouldn’t act like you are – I also know this is easier said than done. To come here, to fight for your M when all appears to be lost (including oneself), to take the first step (& the next) when you can’t see the path in front (or behind) takes immeasurable courage; you are magnificent, you are worth more than you could ever imagine.]
I’m one of those people who needs to know all the gruesome details of what happened between them – I don’t want to know, but I cannot proceed into recovery without it; I know that I’ll be consumed by my imaginings if I don’t have the details. I also know that F?WW doesn’t want to tell me & feels very strongly that I set her up. (I’ve always felt that I didn’t distinguish between EAs & PAs – I’ll find out soon enough.)
To round off a rank bank holiday weekend: we spent all Monday night tearing chunks out of each other, until about 5:30am on Tuesday morning. She went to sleep & I watched the sun come up (I was so relieved to see it). I don’t know how it started, or what was said, but I think that I did more than make a few withdrawals from her love bank; I think I set fire to it. I also know that my love bank was also depleted; but thus far it seems to have the ability to regenerate so I can’t comment as to the balance, I’ll know when the dust settles.
I’m unsure what will happen next. I’ve been in plan A since early Feb & was planning to go to plan B in early August but I’m beginning to think that I should bring that date forwards (or maybe push it backwards to get a chance of making some deposits & recovering some of the balance). F?WW may decide to go for plan D (I might yet). I shan’t decide anything until I recover from being physically, emotionally & spiritually exhausted.
Where to next then?? Answers on a postcard please.
b.p.m.
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I'm puzzled. She has decided to stay (albeit for more practical reasons than "romantic" ones) but you are contemplating plan B or a D?
If it were me, I'd be doing Plan A like it's never been done before. You've got your foot in the door, with practicality - show her that you can be the "fantasy" too.
There's a lot of things to work out - feelings to process etc., but I think the fact that she CHOSE to stay married is a good thing. That's something to build on. If she was moving out and proceeding with a D, it's a heck of a lot harder to rebuild on that.
Plan B at this point would do more harm than good IMO.
Carry on with Plan A, that's my suggestion.
JinGA
F/40, DD15 DS13
M 1989
DDay his EA May 1998.
S Aug 2004.
D Dec 05. I filed.
4/07 Post-D Plan A with 180, with hopes of R.
6/23/07 XH said no to R.
8/24/07 Went on a date with someone new, "B".
1/22/08 Still seeing B, life is good! Learning and growing each day.
Ask me about Geocaching!
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Monday night tearing chunks out of each otherYou need to start plan A mate. It will remind your spouse of the husband she will be chucking up if she leaves you. All this shouting stuff feels righteous at the time but its like scratching chickenpox - nothing good comes of giving into to instinct. You better study plan A and apply it consistently for a while. I managed to avoid going ballistic all the time by learning to "lovingly detach". In my own affair-battle, and in plan A , loving detachment was without doubt the technique that helped the most to get through the very bad times. It allowed me breathing space to be rational when faced with irrationality. I have advised for panicking folks in the heat of this fight to "detach" but I always struggled to INSTRUCT them how to do it. Well, a day late and a dollar short, but here goes - in case it helps anyone: However vicious or entitled a persons actions may be towards us, and however dark a situation may appear, it is a stark realisation that it is OURSELVES who render events with the power to frighten or hurt outselves. Some folks who tried to adopt loving detachment tried to IGNORE evil purpetrated in their lives and respond with a false rictus smile to the person who is hurting them. That is not what loving detachment is for me and I chide myself for not being able to explain sooner. Loving detachment was a way I found to strip away the scariness I attributed to events and look only at the core elements of these events. I'll start with a non infidelity example : A banana skin skids to a halt at your feet, when you are rushing and feeling low, and you barely miss slipping on it. Things you might think while in an emotional state: "I could have slipped on that ! GOD I might have broken my neck ! I Bet my spouse threw that there to kill me for my insurance ? What if there are more banana skins ? OH NO, I have to LIVE in a workd of banana skins for ever boo hoo hoo !" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> What loving detachment thinks : "A banana skin. I need to step around that so I don't slip. Stay vigilant in case of further banana skins as I can only control my OWN placement of banana skins, not other people's." See ? It doesn't matter if a person tried to sabotage you with that banana skin,OR if it was dropped accidentally by a passing flying monkey, the core challenge, and correct response is identical once you strip away all the layers of portent you ascribe to an event. When Squid would attend karate competitions that I suspcted OM may be at, against my direct request a wellsping of panic and fear surged within me. " She'll be kissing him ! Maybe they're not even at a karate event! Perhaps they've left to elope !" Then I shouted "Stop! Detch! " to myself. Facts : 1. Squid went to referee a weekend competition against my request less than a month after d-day. The only thing I know for sure is she won't be home over Saturday night. 2. Even if she *IS* PA'ing with OM, it does not change our situation.I Expect her to be wayward at this time. I am not "more cuckolded" by this ,if so. 3. I know there IS a competition at the time / place she says and that she is sharing a room with a trustworthy mutual friend. 4. How can I affect this in future ? Well, exposing to OM GF may apply a compulsion to OM not to attend these events. I should expose. 5. The weekend without soaking up Squids poison gives me a respite ! I will take the kids to a childrens' farm ! Loving detachment is DELIBERATELY stripping away portent from events and facts to allow calm rationalisation as to whether you can affect a situation positively or not. It is not ignoring, it is not soaking up, it is not tolerating. It is revealing and dealing with the FACTS as practially as possible. Another real example : Event : Squid is highly entitled and is bullying me in her affair pomp, in the second whole week after NC established. She is making no effort to be transparent nor to work on our marriage. Highly dismissive, vituperative. I am terrified, the kids are being hurt. WHOAH Bob !!! LOVING DETACHMENT MODE PLEASE :What would I do if I were not afraid ? - I'd tell Squid that I would rather live without her than WITH her this mean and disrespectful What am I afraid of ? - That this is the best Squid can ever give me and that she would leave if I enforced a boundary requiring more SO this is a dignity issue. Best case is that I get my baby AND my dignity. Whats the best compromise ? - That I keep my dignity and lose my baby. So, loving detachment, what are the FACTS to consider ? 1. She could leave ANY time she wanted with or without my protecting my dignity 2. If she left as a result of having to respect minimum boundaries, I am only worse off if I value that toxic corruption of a marriage more than my own dignity. 3. If she leaves I will be healthy,have the support of my employer and my kids and we will be fine, after a time of sadness. It is highly unlikely that we will be broken by this. 4. If she stays and respects my boundaries we may all just "win the lottery" !. Decision - restate my boundary to Squid. Lovng Detachment released me from the chains of fear. That night I asked Squid my famous question :" baby WHY are you here ? You said you would stay and work on our marriage - and I am struggling to see anything I would call "marriagebuilding" from you right now. I want you , very much, but I do not need you. Do not stay only because you think I will fall apart if you leave. I will not. The door on this marriage is open - you can leave any time, as can I. Just know that I will not tolerate perceived disrespect for long before I protect myself from it." Squid flipped a switch that night like so many WS do. Even when I make a bad decision using the facts loving detachment presented me, I could simply apply LD to the NEW situation and make a new decision in light of my experience. Does any of this make any sense ? I hope it helps. Take this on board, study MB , take a deep breath and plan a your bollocks off.
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Here's my postcard. Epistle in my sig line. [color:"red"] POSTCARD [/color]
* I married and stayed for the wrong reason (didn't want to be an 'old maid').
* Waited 5 years to have kids, thinking we wouldn't make it.
* Felt trapped but stayed 27 more years, trying everything to make H treat me like a queen.
* Gave up, detached, H had EA and withdrawal lasted 6 months with 3 more D-Days while I Plan A'd w/out knowing about MB.
* On 4th D-Day, H said I deserved better. I said you're right---go away.
* He changed his thinking towards me, saw me differently and begged me for one more chance. Found MB. Exposed to OWH.
* So far H has made the 180 degree turn and we're rebuilding trust. If you've got the patience and desire, I agree with Jinga...take what you've got and maximize it. You can only control yourself....I tried for 32 years to control my spouse. Choose what you can own, regardless what she says or does. Ace
FWH/BW (me)57+ M:36+ yr.
4 D-Days: Jun-Nov 06 E/PA~OW#2 (OW#1 2000)
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Hi Bulletproof,
I moved out for 2 couple of weeks after her EA didn't stop, but moved back again. When she finally admitted to PA I moved again because of my emotions. As you are aware I moved back the other day. All you guys encouraged me to go home and stick at Plan A and thats what your should do for now.
Order 'Surviving an Affair' from here, it did help me understand things and I still go back to it to remind myself of what I have to do if we get back together. If you can get her to understand His Needs & Her Needs you may just get somewhere.
Regards
Chris
Together 10 Years
Married 14 Febuary 04
DD 6 March 2007
DS8 & DS9
BS 38(me)
WS 39
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bp, like the others said, you should be in Plan A, Plan A, Plan A. She sounds just like the typical WS who is just going through withdrawal. As is expected, she is rewriting history. she doesn't see me as one half of a couple (with her), but as one quarter of this family (her, me & the two kids). She went on to tell me that she'd 'selected' me as I'd be a good father & be able provide a constant, consistent & safe environment for her & the family & that I’d never do anything to hurt her – nothing to do with me being the one for her. Apparently, you were "the one" for her, because she freely chose you. All of this is so typical, bp. They rewrite history in a way that nullfies the marriage in order to justify tha affair. As the fog wears off, this all goes away. What you need to do is to STOP reacting to her fog babblings and focus entirely on your PLAN A. She will come around. And stop fighting with her!
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Your simply boundary and it was sort of my mantra:
"I refuse to stay in a loveless marriage forever".
So I endured for a time and over the course of a year my wife fell in love with me again and I her.
If you think about it, you both really are in the same place. You certainly aren't head over heels for this woman right now. You can only build a relationship and AFFAIR PROOF MARRIAGE from here, right now...one stone at a time.
If NO CONTACT is in place (inspect what you expect...no "closure" is necessary and she doesn't have the right to maintain her "friend"), then withdrawal and then recovery should follow. Have patience. Often times a recovered marriage ends up being stronger than the pre-affair marriage. The scars heal. They don't go away. But the TWO of you...TOGETHER...can work on the entire marital body surrounding that scar and make it better.
Good luck,
Mr. Wondering
FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered
"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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I wouldn't worry at all why she chose you. I think the WS typically babbles just to save face. Ignore it and get to the business of recovery.
Has she agreed to write a no contact letter?
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Just got back from the gym & yoga (all part of the plan A thing) & I feel much more lucid & centred. I was evidently knocked off balance by her revelations of Saturday (I can only think it was WS babble radar defect) & sent reeling by the new information on Sunday that the EA may have gone PA. Monday night was an explosion brought about by the extreme tension.
I would like to thank all of you: I was hit hard on Saturday & I've been falling down ever since - you lot have caught me, stopped my fall & righted me. I rediscovered my path & it's plan A.
I really don't know what came over me: I know it's all WS babble. Only the other day MiM was descibing to me how, although the A is over, F?WW is still in WS mode much (most?) of the time & should be ignored. Shame of shames: I've even been posting to others about WS babble & how it should be ignored. AAarrrrrgggggh.
And so the nominations for MB half-wit of the week are ...
* me - for a larger than life characterisation of a man with cloth ears.
* me - for my role as an eejit who doesn't practice what he preaches (& moreover what he KNOWS to be true)
* & finally, me - for the depiction of a man caught in a whirlpool of despair that was never really that big.
Anyhow, I'm away (in the words of the inimitable Bob Pure) to plan A my bollocks off. A new & improved plan A, with no stale aftertaste.
Thanks again - you have made a difference.
b.p.m.
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BP, You will get the stale after taste anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But, remember you have choices...more than she does really. She can leave but she leaves an adulteress and always will be. She can stay but ONLY if you allow it. You can leave knowing you gave her a chance she never gave you, knowing that you did your best. You can stay because you want to. In short, you have a lot more control than you realize. Plan A is a good thing and I would strongly suggest you keep to your August reevaluation for plan B or even leaving the marriage. It is your call. As for her reasons for picking you, frankly they sound much better to me than the usual "I felt we were soulmates". Usually when you hear that, you know you are dealing with someone that doesn't have ANY values at all. In this case you know she values her family (and that includes you), she values stability (something you bring to the table), she values your support. Much more solid foundation for a marriage than the "soulmate" crap in my mind. So hang in there, get the details you need and DO NOT accept any blame for her choice to have an affair and violate her vows to you and herself. Those you had no vote on, she did all of that by herself. God Bless, JL
Last edited by Just Learning; 05/31/07 03:42 PM.
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You will get the stale after taste anyway. But, remember you have choices...more than she does really. She can leave but she leaves an adulteress and always will be. She can stay but ONLY if you allow it. You can leave knowing you gave her a chance she never gave you, knowing that you did your best. You can stay because you want to. BP, you probably can't see it right now, but what JL said is so true. Work on your Plan A. Who is the OM and how did your WW know him from? Are they still in contact?
Married 10 years, Legally Seperated Aug 2,2006 1 year of Plan A followed by 1 year of Plan B... ...now stepping towards recovery????? BH 37(me), WW 35, DB 7 & DD 5 My Story My struggle with an EA
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A new & improved plan A, with no stale aftertaste.
Top plums !
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Throughout my A and during withdrawl, I told my H he was "like a brother to me" and I picked him because he "reminded me of my dad" and made me feel safe.
This is all hogwash. Stay the course... eventually... hopefully... she'll wince when she remembers saying these horrible, foggy things to you.
Me: FWW (34)
H: BS (35)
Together 12 years, no children (yet)
LTA: 3 years
D-Day: Sept. 13, 2005 (I confessed)
So blessed, thankful and happy for my wonderful H...
"God lives in the gathering of saints."
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KM: I've also had the brother line (& other mundane mutterings). I know it's WS babble but you're right to describe it as horrible - these things do hurt & I haven't quite managed 'loving detachment' yet; unfortunately, I occasionally bite back. Thanks for the insight - to get an FWW POV is invaluable to me (& more than likely to other BH's too). Bob: This loving detachment is harder than you make it sound - I'm sticking with it tho' & should have it licked in a couple of weeks. Any hints on pulling this off are more than welcome (as is your continued support). p.s. check out the sig, my homage to you :-) HTW: I'll flesh out the missing details of my sitch & put it all in one place (most is recorded in MB - but scattered throughout different boards & user IDs). I believe NC has been in place since early Feb but have precious little evidence; F?WW is far from open & honest - not quite opaque, more obtuse & enigmatic & seemingly enjoying the ability to feed me thru the mangle <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> JL: Are you saying I should work plan A for as long as possible (or until August)?? As you point out - her reasons are valid (if stoic) & I feel better for knowing that. Thanks. There's been some very interesting developments on the 'BLAME' front; we ended up staying up all night again last night (talking rather than rowing) & she accepted responsibilty for her choices & apologised. I never expected to hear this, I don't believe that I needed to hear this in order to heal - but I'm so very grateful (yes, grateful) for it nevertheless. She also said that she thinks that we need time apart - these last 5 months have been hard on both of us. I'm resuming IC on Tues after a long break & the first thing I'm looking at is curbing my controlling nature - it will allow me to be less anxious & hopefully F?WW will feel less 'controlled'. I'll fill in the details later - it's been a busy & eventful week. b.p.m.
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Hi Bullet,
How are you? thanks for dropping in to my thread. I was having a quick look through your thread earlier. You seem to be way ahead of me in your situation so keep at it.
Bullet have you spoke to Steve Harley, if not I'd give him a call. It may cost money but it may also save a lot of time and effort.
Chris
P.S. I keep changing my thread in case she decides to pop her head in at some point, which is way you probably keep losing me.
Together 10 Years
Married 14 Febuary 04
DD 6 March 2007
DS8 & DS9
BS 38(me)
WS 39
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Cheers Chris. I'm well, thanks for asking. Just sipping a beer & catching up on some Dr Who's while Mrs b.p.m. is out. It's been emotional this last week but I feel better for it; resumption of gym, yoga & meditation helps - as does a lot of tension cleansing episodes with the trouble & strife. You seem to be way ahead of me in your situation ... It took me a long time of reading many threads here to learn that, although the journey we're on is A B C ... X Y Z, it doesn't always follow in that order. I feel like I'm a W & can smell the finish line but I've yet to complete G->S. I may ring the Harley's - at 50p for a dollar it's economical. Off to your thread now - see how you're getting on <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. b.p.m.
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Bullet,
As you no doubt know, the longer you can plan A the better, especially IF no contact can be attained. The point is to watch yourself. Plan A means getting few if any of your needs met, and the end result can lead to loss of love and a lot of love busters. As you sense this happening it is time to reevaluate and consider plan B.
However, given the events of the last evening I think your plan of continuing while being less in need of control will serve you well. Keep up the good work. I would strongly recommend that you don't separate. It always sounds like a good idea, just the thought of relief is enticing. However, nothing is gained really. In fact often the request for "space" usually means that the OP is brought back into the picture, not good.
What you can do, is give yourselves space from the drama by setting aside periods to do something fun, and NO relationship talks. Make it sort of a formal agreement. Certain times you have talks and other times no, nada, nyet, nothing with regard to the relationship talks.
Hang in there.
God Bless,
JL
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This loving detachment is harder than you make it sound
Its a mental discipline, mate. Practice it.
Write out your decision process in a journal or here or something if it helps.
When Squid did or said something that made that cold fist clutch my innards I'd think "STOP! THINK "
I know intellectually that her words are likely to be hurtful and illogical for a while yet so look at her actions.
She says I am a loser and she's going to leave. OK
But she hasn't packed, she'd in my house, she's making the kids lunch.
All indications are that she is staying. More chance to plan A
My response " I can see you feel strongly about that. I can only say that you should do what you think is RIGHT"
see ?
"right" is a good phrase to use. "best" might mean leaving but when can leaving kids be "right" ?
Treat it like a project at work. Important but not life-threatening. ( unless you're a brain surgeon or a supehero !)
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I also did not feel love and I swore I would not stay in a loveless marriage. And I haven't. We are at the two year mark and it is starting to come back. But there was a time not too long ago when WW told me she was only staying for the children. That also became the only reason I let her stay. Good thing I didn't react on my feelings.
Oh, and take it from me and I can't stress this enough, don't get the hamster.
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Pio: I know from your thread how hamsters have enriched your life <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />: alas for me, we got one. DD5 wanted a baby sister (all her friends are getting them at the mo) to play with; we negotiated to a dog, than a cat, rabbit, guinea pig & finally to a hamster (we couldn't get to fish as we already have one). I'm celebrating a minor victory, a babu right now would be bad. I'll be looking for advice on hamster christenings is a while so I'll be in touch <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Did you have a time-frame for recovery of love?? How long would you have waited in a 'loveless marriage' before pressing the eject button?? Just trying to get a handle on the timescales involved (so long as they're not geological, I'm all in). Bob: LD, I'm getting it - it's coming, slowly, but it's coming. I think that a major contributor to last Monday's fireworks was a visit to the Trafford Centre (for those who've not been there or don't know it, imagine the City of Dis, but full of shops - 3 miles of them I'm told - & you'll not be a million miles away). This was where "they" were going to meet in the email I found, they were off to Ann Summers to buy some outfits for her to keep round at his house (then they were off somewhere else for shenanigans). I'd forgot all about this (don't ask me how I forgot but I did); I got 4 steps in & froze as I remembered the significance of where I was. This was a HUGE trigger for me & I didn't see it coming, from that moment on the vitriol began to build & eventually I blew; I do feel v bad at this - I should've know better than to go (& then to drink lots of vodka afterwards). Anyhow back to the matter at hand: I can do it as long as I'm calm to begin with, which I am more of the time. Ohmmmmmm... Haven't quite distilled down my decision making process but it's condensing. I love the 'right' rather than 'best' thing - it works on so many levels. But, & this is such a big but, when I read what you say I try to imagine the narrative in a Brum accent, it just doesn't wash - I can't do it; sage words delivered by Noddy, nah <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. I'm about 80ish miles north of you, in the citeh of sunsheeeeeiiinnnne; just in case you wanted a regional bunfight. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> JL: Thanks for clearing up the plan A thing. I don't feel like I'm running low on love for Mrs b.p.m, even if my love bank is holed (sometimes I think the only reason the universe is expanding is so it can accommodate my love for her - it's that big); LB's may be a bother tho'. IC was not good today, I'm not gelling with the counsellor & just after I left I was phoned & told that my anger management course has been cancelled - funnily enough, I wasn't angry. I'll get round to collating my sitch one day (or maybe not). To everybody else who pops in: good luck & thanks for dropping by. b.p.m.
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