Summary:

BS (me) 39
(F)WH (him) 39
DD:9 DS:7
Married 17 years.
Dday: July 06
Promised NC: August 06
NC broken twice (not volenteered by WH, but admitted by him when asked and later confirmed by other sources of my own):
1) Sept to early Oct 06 ( initiated by OW )
Comfirmed that WH was telling me the truth about their C from later emails (I found out myself). The last email from OW was a closure one. OW never initiated or responded after that last email (see the item below).
2) End of March. WH attempted to call and email OW. Told me about it when I asked. OW never responded.

It's work place A and OW changed job during their A when they tried to break up. A lasted for 9 months.

Ending was tramatic. WH confessed to me and wanted to move out. I begged him to stay and he got confused. Told me he expected me to kick him out right away because I had been very cold to me for couple of years ( partly true ). Exposed his A to his parents who confronted him right away and cried and begged him to stop. He stayed with OW in a hotel for only two days. Decided to come back home but lied to OW telling her they were to move to an apartment. While she was waiting for him to pick her up to go to their new place, WH called and told her he would come back home instead. Of course WH promised to "love her forever" and asked her to forgive him, etc, etc.

After WH came home, he had been in intense withdrawal. And I was basically doing plan A. He couldn't initiate any affections and had difficulty receiving mine. Now I think I actaully was not doing a good plan A. I was too needy and wanted help with my pain at a time that he couldn't deal with it.

He mained NC from October 06 to March 07. Most of the time he was miserable, but was going along with my plans of vacations and time together. Was doing better but finally broke down and tried contact when I caugt him doing porn and was very mad at him again. Actually porn was not a problem before and I think it's one of his ways to deal with his withdrawal. During this whole NC time, I had to deal with my pain by myself, but sometimes I needed his help a lot and I did expode almost every month due to the pain I felt that he wouldn't help me and told me he was not capable of helping since he was in pain himself.
But things did get much better during that time.

About the March attempted contact, he said he was hurting too much and he wanted to know how OW wad doing ( she had heart problems ). He wanted to find some closure for himself. What he got was more pain because OW wouldn't respond in any way.

After that, he seemed to finally pulling out of his long intense withdrawal. He started AD by himself and was getting so much better. He started to participate with family life a lot and was laughing and having great fun with us. We started to get intimate and SF improved dramatically also. I still need to initate most of the time but he seems to get along very nicely.

I do feel safer with him day by day because of his actions. He accounted for his time very well. I installed filter from internet and was monitoring his computer and it came out all clean. He noticed my changes and started to look at me in a way that I didn't notice for so long now. He took good care of me when I was feeling not well and he helped with every chance to stay with the kids.

But, here is a big but. He doesn't show remorse. He doesn't say sorry when I'm obviously hurting over his A. He would avoid talking about the A completely. He wouldn't tell me the details of the A.

Other things were going great. Memorial Day weekend we had a little vacation and he was very attentive and he said we should do this more often.

Since I'm feeling safter and safter with him, my desire to communicate with him in a deeper level grow and grow. I needed to know more about his A. Actually when he confessed (still in the A but already decided to move out) he was very honest and told me everything I asked. So I know the basics. But he shut down after he came back home and didn't really open up to me yet.

The night we got back from our vacataion, I felt the urge to ask questions and he instantly withdrew. I felt so hurt and I didn't control my anger very well. I drove out in the middle of the night because he left our bedroom saying that my talk was making him not able to sleep. He was so inconsiderate and my pain was unbearable. I just had to leave the house. He got even more angry when I came back in half an hour. I was just out of mind and I has such a rage outburst and I grabed his arms...He didn't resist at all. Afterwards, I cried and talked about how hurt I was because he couldn't help me with my pain and he got defensive whenever A was brought up. He was silent during the whole night after that, not even a word. My heart grew so cold and I thought about leaving again. Yesterday I didn't communicate with him. I wanted to toughen up and stopped being needy. My work required a conference call at night and he was all nice and took care of the kids when I was busy at the conference call. Last night finally I apologiezed to him about the rage outburst. I didn't say a word. I then told him since both of us were so unhappy (well, not true. We already built up a lot of happy moments after his A) and didn't know how to communicate with each other, maybe we shouldn't stay together. I told him I loved him but didn't want him to feel trapped because of my love. I said me and the kids would be ok. I said I wanted him to find happiness. And that he is free to leave.
He wouldn't leave. And sounded pretty happy actually this morning and tried to engage in longer conversations.

I just feel very tired in the whole situation. This same explosion happened many times before. This latest one happened after such a great period of time that we cared each other so well I can't believe why I said all those things to him. I felt that he stayed out of pity for us and wanted desparately to snap this out of his mind, I guess.

Today I feel much better and I can think more clearly. I know he has been putting a lot of effort lately to rebuild my trust. I know he wants to stay with us. I just know it. But he won't tell me. He seems like is trying to hold his last ground, basically he was sacrifising his happiness to stay with us, but actually he has been enjoying my company a lot ( he actually wants to go with me whereever I go during weekend just to stay together). I know he loves me, I can see that in his eyes, but he wouldn't tell me. He even wouldn't respond when I say ILU, so I stopped saying them. He wouldn't initiate affections, even if I can clearly sense that he enjoyed them and wanted them.

What's going on this this man? He is noncommunicative (actually never good at expressing his feelings all his life) when it comes to feelings. He gets so defensive and feels attached no matter what I say about his A.

I sometimes think about doing a 180, but I know his deep fear of me leaving and his deep belief that if I want to leave, even if he would hurt tremoudously, he wouldn't fight for me since that's his belief that if he loves me he should give me freedom. Plan B doesn't feel right at all at this time since he is truly trying I can feel it. And I'm sure NC is in place. There are just something that's blocking him to be able to communicate his feelings to me. And I don't know how to go from here.

I haven't been consistant and probably sending him mixed messages. When I feel hurt and rejected, I bring out leaving him or having him leave the home. I did feel the need to say it for some reason, but I know it's not what I want. I just want him to open up and to listen to me when I'm hurting. I guess my mistakes in doing this got him more defensive and shut up more because he didn't want to get hurt either.

We didn't have a perfect marriage before but in my mind he was alwasy the responsible one and the one who was always going to protect me and our kids. Now everything is changed and I think both of us are at a loss how to really enter each other heart again.

I know there are more urgent cases that need help for, but I would really appreciate if somebody can lend a helping hand to us. My H seems to respond to soft things much better than but I feel like I'm so short charged and my patience is running low.

Thanks in advance.

LovingAlong

Hi LA.

Start here.

Joseph's letter *a MUST read* for all betrayed

LA:

Lots and lots of stuff here.

I would first recommend scheduling some time with the Harleys. You and your H with Steve or Jennifer.

I would start there.

Your H is having real issues with communicating with you, but I do not know if you understand how to get him to continue a discussion regarding the A with you.

Regarding the A:

What do you want to know? Write down over the next couple of days, what you really, really need to know.

Start with what you do know, and expand from there. I describe it like a tree. You have the basic info about the A, that's the trunk.

How they met. How often they talked. What attracted you to her.

Now you have the branches:

Times they met, Where they met, what did they do there, where did they go, How long on the phone, TM's EM's, did they kiss, hold hands, dance, sing.

Then you get to the leaves:

What were you wearing, what was she wearing, who paid for the room, did you brush your teeth afterward, did you use the car, was she in my car, etc

This is where the most difficult part is, and where you most need to fill in the blanks. And it is tough for your H. And he's trying to protect you.

But that will never work, because working thru the above to your satisfaction, can bring you to the part of the tree that can make the most difference.

The roots.

Moreso than the trunk. This is where you go back thru your M and start looking at the roots and causes of both his unhappiness and yours.

Not blaming the other for knowledge they didn't have, but facing up to the environment that allowed the boundaries to fall to such an extent that the OW found a way in.

Your H may never getthere. HE needs to. The more he reveals, the easier it gets, because the TRUTH will set you free.

LA: you imagine many things about what your H was doing during the A. Your imagination may make up things that are worse than what actually transpired, or maybe you really never thought he did THAT. HE KNOWS. And HE is withholding it from you. No reason for him to do that, he just thinks it will be easier this way. It isn't.

Read MarriedForever Threads around here. Dday, and her H finally explaining everything one night, and then the H continuing contact, until she Plan Bed him and he finally went NC. Now they are struggling thru recovery.

MF learned much about herself during this time, how much self-renewal do you think you have had LA?

And why do your write what you want to know down? Because it gets organized. You become organized, you decide WHAT you really want to KNOW. You may have more answers than you think you have. But, what it really does? It gives you something that you can share with your H. "These are the questions I have" And you can schedule some time to start going over them. Maybe a question or two at a time. This process can take many weeks. The goal is trust and honesty. You do not need to get there overnight. You would like to, but it does take time, and it really doesn't start until you have the info you need.

And then, you get satisfied with the answer, and you don't have to go back into that tunnel. That's the safe area that H needs to know about so that he can start growing with you, and realize he isn't stuck always on the same page.

And sessions with the Harleys can make all the difference is the world. They know how to speak to FWH and H's in turmoil.

My W and I went to the Marriage Builders Weekend, Made all the difference in the world. I was well along the path at that time, but it really helped!.

Do not know if this helped, but that's the way I see it.

LG

SERIOUSLY

this IS very salvagable

PLEASE

Call HARLEYS for an appointment

you will get back on track faster and make fewer recovery ewrrors <~~~ such a funny typo I decided it should stay as an Elmer Fudd tribute !

Wow, LG. What an incredible post. I have added this post to my favorites. The tree is such a perfect way to describe it.

LA: Listen to LG, I've ready MANY of his posts and highly value what he has to say.

LG: Thank you for being here and helping others. I don't think you have ever posted directly to me, but I've read your posts to others and gain so much from them. Thank you so much.

Have you given any thought to the possibility that this might just be a 'guy thing' and not a 'guy who had an affair thing'?

When we women are upset over just about anything we need to talk about and explore our feelings, have our feelings validated and then be touched, held and comforted by a husband we trust and love.

Men, usually by nature want to have space when they are upset.

So they have a tendency to withdraw when we are upset because they think that is the loving thing to do.

Then we get even more upset (because we think they are uncaring). By their standards this additional upset means that we are too emotionally involved with the problem. That is usually when they say things like, "you're getting too emotional over nothing." Believe it or not, they think they are being loving and giving us good advice.

I understand your pain and need for communication, but perhaps if you can look at it as a normal guy thing it will help get you through this crazy time.

Thank you so much everybody for your posts to me. I'm already feeling better with such a warm and caring community. I'm at work now and will find time to reply to each and every one of you either tonight or tomorrow. I need to read and reread also before I can reply. But just a quick thank you first everybody. I will write to you tonight or tomorrow and report our progress regularly also.Thanks again for your caring words and well thought after advices.

LA

Thank you chrisner.
I read the letter and it's very well written. H is not really open to reading these things with me. I would die for him to read HNHN or other material like Joseph's letter...But he gets defensive when I suggest reading anything. I haven't talked to him about this for a long time already, fearing being rejected again. What's the best way in your opinion to approach him in this? Maybe just print this letter and leave it on his desk, not caring if he read it or not, and leave it as that?
LA

Have you spoken to your husband in this way?

[color:"blue"]

"I am not your jail warden.

I am your wife, your friend, your lover.

I am not keeping you in this marriage against your will. If you stay here, you stay because you want to be married TO ME and be a family.

You are free to leave if you cannot commit to this marriage. That is NOT what I want, but I want you to be clear, if you are here it is to stay married TO ME.

I am also letting you know ...

I will not stay in any marriage indefinately where my needs/desires/hurts/feelings are consistently ignored.

As we move forward to try and both recover from this trauma, I will require you to participate equally with me.

I believe in "us" and I know we could be GREAT together with work and time..

However, if you remain unwilling to help me recover, my love for you will slowly die, and that would be tragic.

We have a way out of this together, please take my hand and walk that journey with me.

If you do not, I will walk it alone.

I will leave you if you are not here to be married TO ME 100%."

Hi LG:
I read your other posts and was really impressed about your insights and also the way you present it. Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to me. I really appreciate it.

>I would first recommend scheduling some time with the >Harleys. You and your H with Steve or Jennifer.

We did one session the first day H came home from the hotel. I scheduled it before he decided to come home and he went along with it. It seems to me that when he was in his A, feeling so guilty about leaving me and kids, he would do anything I suggest. He answered every question I asked and even did a session with Steve. If you knew him, you know how this means. He is a guy that would die if he had to talk to another person about his feelings. But he did it for me he said. The problem is after he came back home, he refused to do anything, no counseling, no talking about A, no reading books together, nothing. He withdraws even when I suggest those things. Yes, if we could do more sessions with Steve, I'm sure we will be further along already. The problem is he is not open to it at this time. He hates about talking to people about his feelings. The other thing I fear is that he still feels that he is betraying OW if he does those things. He once told me that OW told him that I was brainwashing him.


>Your H is having real issues with communicating with you, >but I do not know if you understand how to get him to >continue a discussion regarding the A with you.

>Regarding the A:

>What do you want to know? Write down over the next couple >of days, what you really, really need to know.

>Start with what you do know, and expand from there. I >describe it like a tree. You have the basic info about the >A, that's the trunk.

>How they met. How often they talked. What attracted you to >her.

>Now you have the branches:

>Times they met, Where they met, what did they do there, >where did they go, How long on the phone, TM's EM's, did >they kiss, hold hands, dance, sing.

>Then you get to the leaves:

>What were you wearing, what was she wearing, who paid for >the room, did you brush your teeth afterward, did you use >the car, was she in my car, etc

>This is where the most difficult part is, and where you >most need to fill in the blanks. And it is tough for your >H. And he's trying to protect you.

>But that will never work, because working thru the above >to your satisfaction, can bring you to the part of the >tree that can make the most difference.

>The roots.

>Moreso than the trunk. This is where you go back thru your >M and start looking at the roots and causes of both his >unhappiness and yours.

>Not blaming the other for knowledge they didn't have, but >facing up to the environment that allowed the boundaries >to fall to such an extent that the OW found a way in.


WOW, those are great stuff. It all makes sense to me. I'm thinking the way to do it. I can make a list. Actually my list won't be very long. I'm thinking how could I send it to him, not fearing his reactions, not fearing ruining a perfect night together...Right now, if I mention anything related to A, he gets defensive and will shut up immediately. And if I email stuff to him, if it's related to his A, he would not respond most of the time.

My fear is that he still feels obligated to his "love" to OW somehow. He feels he is betraying her in talking about A, or anything. This is my biggest fear. His not initating affections also makes me feel the same way, that he is still somehow protecting his feelings to OW. Is this possible? I can't get an answer from him because I can't trust his answer yet.

Maybe it's still too early and he needs to defog more before I can even start to ask questions? I feel that he does all the things to say to me that say, I'm a great husband and dad now, but my true "love" was still the OW. Is this possible even if NC has been going on for so long??

>Your H may never getthere. HE needs to. The more he >reveals, the easier it gets, because the TRUTH will set >you free.

>LA: you imagine many things about what your H was doing >during the A. Your imagination may make up things that are >worse than what actually transpired, or maybe you really >never thought he did THAT. HE KNOWS. And HE is withholding >it from you. No reason for him to do that, he just thinks >it will be easier this way. It isn't.

Yeah, you are definitely right here. He once told me that I'm crazy to want to know any details. Maybe in his mind he is protecting me. But I feel more like he is protecting himself. He thinks that it's either too shameful to talk about it, or it's too much betrayal of his "true love". I don't know.


>MF learned much about herself during this time, how much >self-renewal do you think you have had LA?

I really learned a lot, believe me. I know I was not a perfect wife to him before the A. We were college sweetheart and we have been together for so long and I basically took him for granted all those years. I thought he would alwasy be there when we needed him and didn't really take care of his needs. I was cold to him the last couple of years because of inlaw issues and to be honest with you, I thought he was not good enough sometimes. I critisized a lot about his socially ackwardness. I learned a lot about relationships and hope it's not too late. We didn't have any good communication skills and we expected the other just to read our minds. Now I try so hard to make myself safe to him but I still fail a lot of times. But I feel as a person I really have been growing a lot. I have changed a lot myself and started to look inwardly a lot more than before.


>And then, you get satisfied with the answer, and you don't >have to go back into that tunnel. That's the safe area >that H needs to know about so that he can start growing >with you, and realize he isn't stuck always on the same >page.

Yeah, definitely. I haven't convey this to him yet. He said several times when this was going to end ( me questioning him and showing my pain). He said it's too hard for him to live like this with no end in the future. I do understand. But I haven't convey this to him yet. I really need to let him know there is an end. He just doesn't see it.


>Do not know if this helped, but that's the way I see it.

Thank you so much. I will let you know what happens. I already apologized to him about my losing control two nights ago. He didn't say anything. It's his usual way. When it comes to emotional stuff, he shuts up. But he has been nice to me and I'm going along with it. I will probably let it be for a little while, and really think and rethink the things you wrote here and try to see how to convey it to him. It seems to be that timing is really important too.

Thanks again and I really appreciate your caring words.

LA

Hi Pepperband:
No I haven't said those words to him, at least not in person. I have a real problem saying emotional things to him with ease. I tense up and my body language can't convey the calmness I so need. But I do better in writing. Do you think it would be effective if I occasionally email him to let him know those things?
Thank you so much. I will save those sentenses and I know I will need to remember them and say them when I need to.

I emailed him this afternoon, apologizing to him about my losing control the other night. And I said I love you. He didn't reply back. I expected that and was not awfully disappointed like I did so many times before.
But tonight, he has been so nice to me and the kids. I know
he was happy that I said that. He spoke so softly to me tonight and I can almost feel his guilt. But he wouldn't say sorry. You see, maybe he is just a man without words. But I do need his words too, in addition to his actions. I guess I have a tough job to do. But with so many people helping me, I hope I can find my voice and he will find his too, someday in some way...
I will have to digest everybody's advice and go very slow from here.
Thanks again.

LA

Hi Pieta:
It's really an intersting angel. I think it's probably part of the problem, a major part probably. That it's a man thing and especially for my H who was never good at talking about feelings.
Is it really true that men think it's a loving thing to do to leave us alone when we are upset? I have always had problems with this. There were a lot of times in our 17 year marraige when I was hurting from something and crying and he would not do a thing. I so wanted him to hug me and comfort me and he never could do that. I really don't want to settle for this. Is there any way to get around this, or this is just that all men are like this?

LA

LA,

I noticed you said your H does not want to pursue counseling with SH because he hates talking about his feelings.

My H and I have been in counseling with SH, and I can assure you it is about actions and concrete plans, not about exploring feelings. And that if you let SH know up front that this is a barrier, he will find a way to work with your H in a way that your H can handle.

Just my 2c.